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Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Fw: 'Splain, please

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  • Michael T. Hiller
    iesus christos nika Jesus Christ Conquers ... -- __________ Pr. Michael T. Hiller, Associate Pastor for Community and Liturgical Life Saint Francis Lutheran
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 30, 2000
      iesus christos
      nika

      Jesus Christ
      Conquers

      Pastor Robert White wrote:

      A friend asked for an explanation. Can someone give me the
      correct spellings, etc.?

      IC | XC
      -- + --
      NI | KA

      Bob

      + + + + + + + + + + +
      Playwright Neil Simon said, 'If no one ever took risks,
      Michaelangelo would have painted the Sistine floor.'

      Pastor Robert White
      Christ the Redeemer Lutheran Church (ELCA)
      863 Silliman Ave.
      Erie, PA USA 16511-2060
      814-899-3264
      email: xrredeem@...

      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com


      --

      __________

      Pr. Michael T. Hiller, Associate Pastor for Community and Liturgical Life

      Saint Francis Lutheran Church, mailto:priestly@...

      URL: http://st-francis-lutheran.org
       

    • atombomb
      Glory to Jesus Christ! ... No, that would be transliterated as iesous christos nikai -- note the e is an eta (h), it s ou not just u, and if I m not mistaken,
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 2000
        Glory to Jesus Christ!

        "Michael T. Hiller" wrote:

        > > IC | XC
        > > -- + --
        > > NI | KA

        > iesus christos
        > nika
        >
        > Jesus Christ
        > Conquers

        No, that would be transliterated as iesous christos nikai -- note the e
        is an eta (h), it's ou not just u, and if I'm not mistaken, the final a
        should have an iota subscript-- as you sometimes see in Greece. Thus:
        IHCOYC XPICTOC NIKAi. If I'm not mistaken, that NIKAi is a second aorist
        also-- "has conquered".

        Regards,

        John Burnett
      • John Dornheim
        ... Yes, at least on the two prosforo stamps that I have. One recipe even suggests that with the tip of a sharp knife one might inscribe that inscription on
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 1, 2000
          Steve Benner wrote:

          >
          > >
          > >A friend asked for an explanation. Can someone give me the
          > >correct spellings, etc.?
          > >
          > >IC | XC
          > >-- + --
          > >NI | KA
          >
          > Isn't this also what is imprinted into the Eucharistic bread, at least in
          > the Greek churches?
          >
          > Steve Benner
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com

          Yes, at least on the two prosforo stamps that I have. One recipe even suggests
          that with the tip of a sharp knife one might inscribe that inscription on the
          loaf.

          John Dornheim
        • atombomb
          Glory to Jesus Christ! ... Yes, if you search ic xc nika in Google or something you ll come up with lots of people s descriptions of the prosphora. Regards,
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 1, 2000
            Glory to Jesus Christ!

            Steve Benner wrote:
            >
            > >IC | XC
            > >-- + --
            > >NI | KA
            >
            > Isn't this also what is imprinted into the Eucharistic bread, at least in
            > the Greek churches?

            Yes, if you search "ic xc nika" in Google or something you'll come up
            with lots of people's descriptions of the prosphora.

            Regards,

            John Burnett
          • Steve Benner
            ... Just curious, why is this phrase of all possible phrases imprinted on the prosphora? Steve Benner
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 1, 2000
              At 11:00 AM 7/1/00 -0700, you wrote:
              >Glory to Jesus Christ!
              >
              >Steve Benner wrote:
              > >
              > > >IC | XC
              > > >-- + --
              > > >NI | KA
              > >
              > > Isn't this also what is imprinted into the Eucharistic bread, at least in
              > > the Greek churches?
              >
              >Yes, if you search "ic xc nika" in Google or something you'll come up
              >with lots of people's descriptions of the prosphora.

              Just curious, why is this phrase of all possible phrases imprinted on the
              prosphora?

              Steve Benner
            • fcsenn@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/1/00 1:17:01 PM Central Daylight Time, rupertchina@earthlink.net writes:
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 1, 2000
                In a message dated 7/1/00 1:17:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
                rupertchina@... writes:

                << Just curious, why is this phrase of all possible phrases imprinted on the
                prosphora?
                >>

                Worthy is Christ, the lamb who was slain...

                FCSenn
              • atombomb
                Glory to Jesus Christ! ... Probably because it looks nice in a circle, and our prosphorai are round. Whatever other symbolisms were applied later you can
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 1, 2000
                  Glory to Jesus Christ!

                  Steve Benner wrote:
                  >
                  > > > >IC | XC
                  > > > >-- + --
                  > > > >NI | KA

                  > Just curious, why is this phrase of all possible phrases imprinted on the
                  > prosphora?

                  Probably because it looks nice in a circle, and our prosphorai are
                  round. Whatever other symbolisms were applied later you can probably
                  find on all those websites, but I suspect that was the original one.

                  And actually you do find other seals used-- not infrequently, a lamb.
                  (The loaf which is consecrated is called the Lamb.)

                  Regards,

                  John Burnett
                • Robert J. Riley
                  Michael T. Hiller is correct. NIKA is 3rd person singular present active indicative of nikao. Yes there is an iota subscript under the (long) alpha when the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 2, 2000
                    Michael T. Hiller is correct.

                    NIKA is 3rd person singular present active indicative of nikao. Yes there
                    is an iota subscript under the (long) alpha when the word is written in
                    minuscule characters, but this iota, which is part of so-called improper
                    diphthongs (i.e., in conjunction with long alpha, eta, and omega), wasn't
                    always written in inscriptions, which were written in capial letters. To
                    quote Goodwin and Gulick: "The iota now called subscript was written as an
                    ordinary sound (that is in line with the first vowel) as long as it was
                    pronounced. It was no longer sounded after about 200 B.C., though it was
                    sometimes written (always in the line, or adscript), sometimes omitted. The
                    iota subscript is not older than the eleventh century." Today the rule is
                    to write iota adscript with capitals (cf. ibid., p. 6), but that was not
                    always the case. Don't forget that we are dealing with an inscription whose
                    words are abbreviated.

                    Nikao does not have a second aorist. In any event, an augment is required
                    for aorist in the indicative. For nikao, the augment would be introductory
                    epsilon.

                    Further, iesus christos is a correct transliteration of the Greek. There
                    are various methods for transliterating Greek. According to traditional
                    rules, which date from classical times, Latin u correctly transliterates the
                    Greek omicron upsilon dipthong; and, vice versa, Greek ou correctly
                    transliterates Latin u. For example, Latin uranus is borrowed from Greek
                    ouranos, and Greek Ioustos (Acts 1:23) is for Latin Iustus (or Justus).

                    There are other schemes besides the classical one for transliterating Latin
                    characters to Greek and Greek to Latin. No one scheme is automatically
                    better or worse than another.

                    So there. :-)

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert J. Riley
                    mailto:rriley@...




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: atombomb [mailto:atombomb@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 2:58 AM
                    To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Fw: 'Splain, please


                    Glory to Jesus Christ!

                    "Michael T. Hiller" wrote:

                    > > IC | XC
                    > > -- + --
                    > > NI | KA

                    > iesus christos
                    > nika
                    >
                    > Jesus Christ
                    > Conquers

                    No, that would be transliterated as iesous christos nikai -- note the e
                    is an eta (h), it's ou not just u, and if I'm not mistaken, the final a
                    should have an iota subscript-- as you sometimes see in Greece. Thus:
                    IHCOYC XPICTOC NIKAi. If I'm not mistaken, that NIKAi is a second aorist
                    also-- "has conquered".

                    Regards,

                    John Burnett



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                  • atombomb
                    Glory to Jesus Christ! ... Sorry if I gave an impression that I was arguing. Someone had asked for the correct spelling and I assumed they wanted the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 2, 2000
                      Glory to Jesus Christ!

                      "Robert J. Riley" wrote:

                      > So there. :-)

                      Sorry if I gave an impression that I was arguing. Someone had asked for
                      "the correct spelling" and I assumed they wanted the spelling in Greek
                      (as best we can do in the alphabet we're constrained to use by this
                      medium). So, in Greek, ihcouc xpictoc nikai (subscript final i). But yes
                      of course in a kind of latin transliteration, iesus christos nika. But
                      then you might be tempted to write IECYC instead of IHCOYC in greek so I
                      thought this needed clarification. Was really only guessing about the
                      second aorist, though, since it didn't have the e-augment, and yet for
                      some reason I had in mind that it's a perfect of some sort; don't know
                      why.

                      > Don't forget that we are dealing with an inscription whose
                      > words are abbreviated.

                      And so naturally NIKA is written, usually, without the subscript; but
                      since you do occasionally see it in modern Greek contexts, I thought I'd
                      mention that one actually belongs there.

                      Thanks for the clarifications.

                      Regards,

                      John Burnett
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