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Linus Torvalds suspends member of Red Hat's Poetterings' clown circus

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  • Thad Floryan
    Two employees of Red Hat, Lennart Poettering and Kay Sievers, are known arrogant jerks who have disrupted things in linux such as pulseaudio and more recently
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 5, 2014
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      Two employees of Red Hat, Lennart Poettering and Kay Sievers, are known
      arrogant jerks who have disrupted things in linux such as pulseaudio and
      more recently systemd which leads to a Windows-like registry for Linux
      to complicate system startup by eliminating the plain ASCII config files
      that have served UNIX since 1973 and Linux since 1992 and rearranging
      the entire file system hierarchy without a clear understanding of the
      error of their ways and not caring to fix their bugs and claiming that
      all Linux distros except Red Hat are garbage as can be read at their
      propaganda site http://www.freedesktop.org sponsored by Red Hat.

      Recently, clown Kay Sievers' idiotic coding badly perturbed booting any
      linux kernel due to systemd usurping the 'debug' kernel flag and took
      it over for systemd. The flag should have been named systemd.debug but
      clown Sievers, in his arrogance, claimed:

      the "debug" statement on the *kernel* command line is not owned
      by the kernel just because it was the first user of it

      which really angered Linus Torvalds who will no longer accept anything
      from clown Kay Sievers as was reported on Slashdot from which I've
      copy'n'pasted some of the more interesting and relevant comments below
      after the first four URLs to the relevant articles.

      Comment (2) below is an interesting explanation of why systemd should
      be flushed down the toilet along with Poettering and Sievers.

      Sadly, some distros (e.g., Debian, Ubuntu, et al) have adopted the
      systemd approach which has already sent more people fleeing from linux
      to *BSD, OS X, and/or even back to Windows.

      I have a large number of *BSD, Linux, Solaris, Open Indiana, UNIX,
      and Windows systems and I will *NOT* install/run any Linux that uses
      systemd. The only systems that I will still allow to update are *BSD
      and Open Indiana since Linux is in too much of a state of disruption.

      I'm still fuming about the CentOS 6.2 to 6.3 "update" July 12, 2012
      which removed Open Office which I use more than 50+ times a day -- I
      had to revert to using Open Office on my Windows systems where it works
      just perfectly for me since CentOS/RedHat also clobbered system libs
      needed by Open Office and also by Google Earth which was also hosed in
      the "update" and now requires using it on my Windows systems only.

      I also note Yahoo's NEO interface is further worsened since my last
      attempt to use it, so don't expect any replies from me. I will still
      post interesting things to this group that I find in my daily searches
      until my Yahoo account expires -- probably in another month or so.

      Thad

      ========================================================================

      http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/04/04/1523231/linus-torvalds-suspends-key-linux-developer

      http://www.networkworld.com/news/2014/040314-linux-280404.html?hpg1=bn

      http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html

      http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01727.html


      (1) ------------------------------------------------------------

      I read the mailing list thread as well as the bugzilla report

      https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935

      Kay certainly was certainly being a complete dick here. Too many people
      will see this as "an asshole being an asshole" w/respect to Linus, but
      he actually had a reason [this time, lol].

      (2) ------------------------------------------------------------

      Let's take a step back and consider what systemd has given us compared
      to what we had before.

      Before systemd, configuring what gets started on Linux systems was
      standard across all distributions, dating back to before 1995, when I
      started developing software with Linux. There was /etc/rc.d/init.d or
      in some cases /etc/init.d and in most cases there were links in rc1.d,
      rc2.d, rc3.d, etc. It was that simple. Nothing ever broke.

      With systemd, a solution in search of a problem, everything changed.
      Now you have all of these directory hierarchies and countless old bugs
      that take years to get resolved. For example, "network restart" was
      broken in Fedora for ages for a machine of mine with one DHCP Ethernet
      interface and two static Ethernet interfaces (with nothing fancy like
      wireless). "network restart" fails on a variety of machines I have
      access to; forget about "network reload." ifcfg-eth0 and the like are
      simple things, some of the most basic boot-related operations. I've
      tried to open bugs but the problem seems to be buried somewhere in the
      guts of systemd.

      I've had systems rendered unbootable during upgrades because of silent
      failures trying to make a good initrd. It's too complex to get
      everything right with systemd. For a long, long time when the boot
      scripts died with systemd there was no obvious way to see any errors.
      Recently they added some more debugging output suggesting that you use
      journalctl. Why didn't they tell us about that earlier? The reason?
      No documentation. They wrote an entirely new way to boot the system but
      kept the design in their heads. Maybe, many years later, there is some
      scant documentation available (except for that one old useless design
      document justifying systemd's existence that everyone has read). Of
      course, nobody writes man pages anymore but they were sure to remove the
      man pages for the old boot system.

      So what new things does systemd give us? Pretty much nothing except for
      bugs. Maybe there are a few oddball use cases like booting off of weird
      media, but most people today boot off of a fixed hard drive that doesn't
      change in years. 19 years later it might be an SSD, but that is the
      same use case.

      (3) ------------------------------------------------------------

      Indeed. I am still puzzled about why there are so many systemd fanbois.
      It basically has no merit at all and causes a hot of severe problems.
      There does seem to be an aggressive, emotionally manipulative campaign
      by Red Hat to get it into every major distribution and that seems to
      unfortunately have succeeded. The same strategy is used against critics
      of systemd and the tactics used have an eerily similar ring to it. Just
      like if it was paid shills working from a PsyOps manual. There also
      seem to be indications that the Occupy movement was attacked in a
      similar fashion.

      (4) ------------------------------------------------------------

      It gets even more "fun" if you're trying to netboot since you never get
      to see any of the output. When I whined about this problem on Slashdot
      before, someone suggested adding a parameter to drop to a shell. Which
      is great, only then systemd didn't get far enough to actually *hit* the
      problem so I could debug it. So then I tried the flag to systemd that
      is supposed to get it to tell you what order stuff starts in, but it
      won't let you run that as root. Googling got me nowhere. Eventually, I
      discovered that DBus (another solution in search of a problem, IMO)
      wasn't functioning correctly because somehow the DHCP server had the
      wrong MAC address for the host so the network didn't come up right (why
      isn't DBus talking over 127.0.0.1!!??!).

      In short, systemd has me looking into how quickly I can switch to
      NetBSD. Although I should investigate Slackware as well.

      (5) ------------------------------------------------------------

      systemd sucks big time:

      http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.php?showtopic=67964

      (6) ------------------------------------------------------------

      Systemd replaces init and is the first daemon to start up in user space
      during boot and the last daemon to shut down. When its developer sees
      nothing wrong with breaking the kernel debug during boot merely because
      its developer feels that he's entitled to use the same parameter name
      and the kernel boot be damned, you REALLY have to wonder about the
      wisdom of using systemd.

      (7) ------------------------------------------------------------

      I think Linus is 100% spot on with his comment:

      Key, I'm f*cking tired of the fact that you don't fix problems in the
      code *you* write, so that the kernel then has to work around the
      problems you cause.

      But I'm not willing to merge something where the maintainer is known to
      not care about bugs and regressions and then forces people in other
      projects to fix their project. Because I am *not* willing to take
      patches from people who don't clean up after their problems, and don't
      admit that it's their problem to fix.

      Kay - one more time: you caused the problem, you need to fix it. None of
      this "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me"
      crap. Linus

      (8) ------------------------------------------------------------

      From the previous message in the thread, to which Linus was reacting:

      It has come to our attention that a system running a specific user space
      init program will not boot if you add "debug" to the kernel command
      line. What happens is that the user space tool parses the kernel
      command line, and if it sees "debug" it will spit out so much
      information that the system fails to boot. This basically renders the
      "debug" option for the kernel useless.

      This bug has been reported to the developers of said tool here:

      https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935

      The response is:

      "Generic terms are generic, not the first user owns them."

      That is, the "debug" statement on the *kernel* command line is not owned
      by the kernel just because it was the first user of it, and they refuse
      to fix their bug.

      I don't care if Kay wrote "Jesus 2.0". He broke kernel debugging for
      all development and responded to this with arrogant platitudes based on
      architecture principle, rather than join with cooperative interest to
      seek a solution.

      Linus was restrained, in response to such a "community
      contributor". This is the Linux kernel, not Oxford dons, vying for
      college chairs.

      (9) ------------------------------------------------------------

      Here is the actual bug and argument:

      https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935

      (10) ------------------------------------------------------------

      http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html

      (END)
    • ed
      ... This annoys the crap out of me. I hate change for the sake of change. One of the reasons I moved from Windows to Linux was because of pointless change, for
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 6, 2014
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        On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 08:35:21PM -0700, Thad Floryan wrote:
        > Two employees of Red Hat, Lennart Poettering and Kay Sievers, are known
        > arrogant jerks who have disrupted things in linux such as pulseaudio and
        > more recently systemd which leads to a Windows-like registry for Linux
        > to complicate system startup by eliminating the plain ASCII config files
        > that have served UNIX since 1973 and Linux since 1992 and rearranging
        > the entire file system hierarchy without a clear understanding of the
        > error of their ways and not caring to fix their bugs and claiming that
        > all Linux distros except Red Hat are garbage as can be read at their
        > propaganda site http://www.freedesktop.org sponsored by Red Hat.

        This annoys the crap out of me. I hate change for the sake of change.
        One of the reasons I moved from Windows to Linux was because of
        pointless change, for a long while I used Linux on the servers and
        Windows as my desktop, until I got sick of the pointless "advancements"
        which kept all the bugs and malware yet demanded more system resources
        to present a desktop. Rubbish. What does systemd/upstart get us that
        sysv doesn't?

        > systemd approach which has already sent more people fleeing from linux
        > to *BSD, OS X, and/or even back to Windows.

        I don't want to switch to BSD, I like the rich, well vetted deb
        repositories, replacing with Free/Open BSD would mean that I'd have to
        compile a lot of ports or get my own source, with a 6month baby to look
        after mostly by myself time for that sort of thing is out of the
        question. I have several portable systems and one desktop and a rpi (not
        counting vms of course), and they're mostly configured via a home brew
        deb that I copy around that sets up my working from home user accounts
        and other bits of network gubbins, I'd have to redo this and I don't
        think that's going to happen. I'm fully locked into debian stable, for
        better or worse.

        > I'm still fuming about the CentOS 6.2 to 6.3 "update" July 12, 2012
        > which removed Open Office which I use more than 50+ times a day -- I
        > had to revert to using Open Office on my Windows systems where it works
        > just perfectly for me since CentOS/RedHat also clobbered system libs
        > needed by Open Office and also by Google Earth which was also hosed in
        > the "update" and now requires using it on my Windows systems only.

        Is it still clobbered from a source build? Surely configure should find
        the correct locations of the libraries?

        > With systemd, a solution in search of a problem, everything changed.

        Says it all really. Sadly I'm seeing Debian adopt crap of late. Network
        manager, gnome (why not xfce?) and switching to systemd, oh dear. What
        next, IE as the browser under WINE and Comic Sans as the terminal font?

        --
        Best regards,
        Ed http://www.s5h.net/
      • Alexandru Fira
        OK, so we have serious reasons for optimism. Linus seems to be one boss that really makes good decisions. As for Open Office, well, I had trouble with a hard
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 6, 2014
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          OK, so we have serious reasons for optimism. Linus seems to be one boss that really makes good decisions.
          As for Open Office, well, I had trouble with a hard disk that burned out and had to get another one, install Linux (Mint) and remove Libre Office and Install Open Office. I am hooked on open Ofice, but I tried some alternatives like Kingsoft Office and, in spite of its shortcomings it proved to be lightweight and quite good.
          Some time ago I asked a question on this group about some very special linux or another OS on another hard disk. After several days of thinking and experimenting I settled on Ububox SalentOS. Fast, good, friendly, beautiful, but I had to install lots of other programs.

          Alex

          Phone number: 004-0364412643
          Mobile phone number: 004-0770607699
          Messenger ID: firaalexandru
          Skype ID: alexfiracluj

          --------------------------------------------
          On Sun, 4/6/14, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:

          Subject: [linux] Linus Torvalds suspends member of Red Hat's Poetterings' clown circus
          To: linux@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: "Thad Floryan" <thad@...>
          Date: Sunday, April 6, 2014, 6:35 AM
        • Matt Bailey
          On Sun, 6 Apr 2014 10:16:34 +0100 ... It s funny how the distro I picked many years ago as a still relatively new Linux user, has shown itself to be a
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 6, 2014
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            On Sun, 6 Apr 2014 10:16:34 +0100
            ed <ed@...> wrote:

            > > systemd approach which has already sent more people fleeing from
            > > linux to *BSD, OS X, and/or even back to Windows.
            >
            > I don't want to switch to BSD, I like the rich, well vetted deb
            > repositories, replacing with Free/Open BSD would mean that I'd have to
            > compile a lot of ports or get my own source, with a 6month baby to
            > look after mostly by myself time for that sort of thing is out of the
            > question. I have several portable systems and one desktop and a rpi
            > (not counting vms of course), and they're mostly configured via a
            > home brew deb that I copy around that sets up my working from home
            > user accounts and other bits of network gubbins, I'd have to redo
            > this and I don't think that's going to happen. I'm fully locked into
            > debian stable, for better or worse.
            >
            <snip>

            It's funny how the distro I picked many years ago as a still relatively
            new Linux user, has shown itself to be a continually solid choice:

            http://www.slackware.com/

            It suits me well, in its operation as well as its driving
            philosophy: simple, powerful, no senseless changes, no treating the
            user like a Windows n00b, no coming up with new/non-standard ways to
            do things, and fairly true to Unix roots. And....root account not
            disabled by default!

            --
            Matt Bailey

            Keeping It Real:
            Sabreliner 60 Flight Simulator
            Serial # 306-61 - N1JX
            http://sabrelinersim.com
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