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Test, please ignore

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  • Scott
    Sorry for the noise folks, please ignore. -- Scott Robbins PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu
    Message 1 of 9 , May 14, 2013
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      Sorry for the noise folks, please ignore.


      --
      Scott Robbins
      PGP keyID EB3467D6
      ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
      gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
    • thad_floryan
      ... Hi Scott, You kidding? How could we ignore a missive from the master? :-) Seriously, this shows yet another Yahoo failing: they have *NO* test groups
      Message 2 of 9 , May 14, 2013
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        --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sorry for the noise folks, please ignore.

        Hi Scott,

        You kidding? How could we ignore a missive from the master? :-)

        Seriously, this shows yet another Yahoo failing: they have *NO* test
        groups that one can use.

        Usenet, on the other hand, has many test groups to which one can post
        anything when testing a new NNTP config or new hardware or whatever.
        I usually use the Usenet alt.test.group when configuring either knews
        or Thunderbird on a new system for NNTP service using eternal-september
        which is totally free:

        http://www.eternal-september.org/

        http://www.eternal-september.org/serverstatus.php?language=en

        Note the system date on the above serverstatus page (in Germany):

        Wed Sep 7197 06:13:30 +02:00 1993

        If you're puzzled about the meaning of "eternal september":

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

        Duke University, where Usenet began, sadly turned-off its service
        though there are still over 100,000 Usenet groups and many servers
        worldwide (and many of them are free):

        http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2010/05/usenet.html

        One Usenet group of which I've been a member since the early 1980s
        is comp.dcom.telecom arguably the oldest computer newsgroup whose
        archives are here:

        http://telecom-digest.org/
        aka
        http://massis.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/

        Thad
      • Scott
        ... In this case, though, I needed to test the Linux group specifically. :) (I still use mbox rather than maildir in mutt. One reason is that it s easier to
        Message 3 of 9 , May 15, 2013
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          On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 04:21:37AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
          > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Sorry for the noise folks, please ignore.
          >
          > Hi Scott,
          >
          > You kidding? How could we ignore a missive from the master? :-)
          >
          > Seriously, this shows yet another Yahoo failing: they have *NO* test

          > groups that one can use.

          In this case, though, I needed to test the Linux group specifically. :)

          (I still use mbox rather than maildir in mutt. One reason is that it's
          easier to see if there is new mail in mbox, and I was seeing what happened
          when a new message was sent to Linux)


          --
          Scott Robbins
          PGP keyID EB3467D6
          ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
          gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
        • thad_floryan
          ... Smart! mbox is the clean ASCII format, the one I prefer, too. It s the format written by my Yahoo-snarfer when downloading group message archives and
          Message 4 of 9 , May 15, 2013
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            --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 04:21:37AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
            > > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Sorry for the noise folks, please ignore.
            > > [...]
            > > You kidding? How could we ignore a missive from the master? :-)
            > >
            > > Seriously, this shows yet another Yahoo failing: they have *NO*
            > > test groups that one can use.
            >
            > In this case, though, I needed to test the Linux group
            > specifically. :)
            >
            > (I still use mbox rather than maildir in mutt.

            Smart! mbox is the clean ASCII format, the one I prefer, too. It's
            the format written by my Yahoo-snarfer when downloading group message
            archives and gets my Yahoo account frozen for violating Yahoo's absurd
            and illegal claim to ownership of all the group messages.

            > One reason is that it's easier to see if there is new mail in mbox,
            > and I was seeing what happened when a new message was sent to
            > Linux.

            Did it work? Bounce? Get lost again by Yahoo's crap email server?

            Here's why mbox is the world's best email format (and Microsoft's
            *.pst proprietary and stupid format is the world's worst along with
            the Grand FUBAR SNAFU "Microsoft Exchange" storing ALL email in just
            one file on the server):

            http://www.linuxmail.info/mbox-maildir-mail-storage-formats/

            http://www.courier-mta.org/mbox-vs-maildir/

            http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2007-June/023788.html

            [ NOTE: my email retrieval is via dovecot, one of the only three
            standards-conforming IMAP servers ]

            http://docs.cpanel.net/twiki/bin/view/AllDocumentation/WHMDocs/MboxMaildir

            http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2009071900235OSSWNT

            http://dovecot.2317879.n4.nabble.com/mbox-vs-maildir-storage-block-waste-td38448.html

            http://tournasdimitrios1.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/mbox-vs-maildir-mail-storage-formats-on-linux/

            http://www.ehow.com/about_5701994_mbox-vs_-maildir.html

            and about 25,000 more. :-)

            Thad
          • Scott
            ... It went to the maildir, but there was no N to the left of it to indicate newmail. In mutt, if I use maildir, it shows every directory as 4k. If a few
            Message 5 of 9 , May 15, 2013
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              On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 10:25:45AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
              > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > In this case, though, I needed to test the Linux group
              > > specifically. :)
              > >
              > > (I still use mbox rather than maildir in mutt.
              >
              > Smart! mbox is the clean ASCII format, the one I prefer, too. It's
              > the format written by my Yahoo-snarfer when downloading group message
              > archives and gets my Yahoo account frozen for violating Yahoo's absurd
              > and illegal claim to ownership of all the group messages.
              >
              > > One reason is that it's easier to see if there is new mail in mbox,
              > > and I was seeing what happened when a new message was sent to
              > > Linux.
              >
              > Did it work? Bounce? Get lost again by Yahoo's crap email server?

              It went to the maildir, but there was no N to the left of it to indicate
              newmail. In mutt, if I use maildir, it shows every directory as 4k. If a
              few emails get in there, the size changes, but, if I get a small email, for
              example, there's no indication. With mbox, it shows as 0 and even a .9k
              email, for example, some test I send myself, will show up.

              If one has thousands of emails saved, maildir almost certainly has
              advantages, since it's an individual file. However, mbox can easily be
              moved back and forth to say, claws-mail, not sure which mail clients, aside
              from Evolution, which seems to my elderly tastes, as bloated as Outlook.

              >

              --
              Scott Robbins
              PGP keyID EB3467D6
              ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
              gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
            • thad_floryan
              ... Everything I ve ever posted to any Yahoo or Usenet group is stored in mbox format for easy grep ing and/or database access because every message is a
              Message 6 of 9 , May 15, 2013
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                --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 10:25:45AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
                > > [...]
                > > Did it work? Bounce? Get lost again by Yahoo's crap email
                > > server?
                >
                > It went to the maildir, but there was no N to the left of it to
                > indicate newmail. In mutt, if I use maildir, it shows every
                > directory as 4k. If a few emails get in there, the size changes,
                > but, if I get a small email, for example, there's no indication.
                > With mbox, it shows as 0 and even a .9k email, for example, some
                > test I send myself, will show up.
                >
                > If one has thousands of emails saved, maildir almost certainly has
                > advantages, since it's an individual file. However, mbox can
                > easily be moved back and forth to say, claws-mail, not sure which
                > mail clients, aside from Evolution, which seems to my elderly
                > tastes, as bloated as Outlook.

                Everything I've ever posted to any Yahoo or Usenet group is stored
                in mbox format for easy grep'ing and/or database access because
                every message is a separate file.

                Though I haven't "played" with maildir format, your comment that it's
                a single file is the same problem with Microsoft's Exchange server
                with all email in one file -- that's the kiss of death when things go
                wrong which is common.

                Worst case of Exchange I ever saw was at Hewlett Packard Labs; every
                time there was a disk sector error or similar, the entire file became
                corrupt and Exchange would crash with all [new] email lost and it took
                17 hours [actual, real number from the admin] to restore Exchange mail
                from backup noting all the new stuff is lost forever.

                With mbox format mail every email is a separate file so generally one
                "might" lose one email if there is a disk error.

                Given today's disk capacities the inefficiencies of one email per file
                is lost in the noise -- [header+body] of 500 bytes in a 4k block with
                only 12.5% utilization is no big deal averaged over 1000s of emails
                where many may have 90+% utilization in their 4k blocks.

                In general, disk space is not a big worry nowadays. Every time I
                download a video from YouTube I create an accompanying file whose
                sole content is the URL from which I downloaded the video. Many
                such URLs are very short such as this (one of my astro videos):

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-2A1JeU9lg runtime 11 seconds

                which is a 3D Jupiter flyby created from just a single photograph:

                http:/www.damianpeach.com/barbados10/2010_09_24_0256rgb.jpg 167kB

                The 60-byte YouTube URL is stored in a 4k file block -- no big deal
                when I have TBs of disk space available. :-)

                Thad
              • thad_floryan
                ... Typing too fast (overtyping my keyboard); the above URL should be: http://www.damianpeach.com/barbados10/2010_09_24_0256rgb.jpg Thad
                Message 7 of 9 , May 15, 2013
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                  --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "thad_floryan" <thad@...> wrote:
                  > [...]
                  > which is a 3D Jupiter flyby created from just a single photograph:
                  >
                  > http:/www.damianpeach.com/barbados10/2010_09_24_0256rgb.jpg 167kB
                  >[...]

                  Typing too fast (overtyping my keyboard); the above URL should be:

                  http://www.damianpeach.com/barbados10/2010_09_24_0256rgb.jpg

                  Thad
                • Scott
                  ... Hrrm, I obviously wasn t clear. mbox is one huge file, with various things in the file to separate individual mails. Maildir makes each email message a
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 15, 2013
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                    On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 08:22:04PM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
                    > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 10:25:45AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
                    > > > [...]
                    > > > Did it work? Bounce? Get lost again by Yahoo's crap email
                    > > > server?
                    > >
                    > > It went to the maildir, but there was no N to the left of it to
                    > > indicate newmail. In mutt, if I use maildir, it shows every
                    > > directory as 4k. If a few emails get in there, the size changes,
                    > > but, if I get a small email, for example, there's no indication.
                    > > With mbox, it shows as 0 and even a .9k email, for example, some
                    > > test I send myself, will show up.
                    > >
                    > > If one has thousands of emails saved, maildir almost certainly has
                    > > advantages, since it's an individual file. However, mbox can
                    > > easily be moved back and forth to say, claws-mail, not sure which
                    > > mail clients, aside from Evolution, which seems to my elderly
                    > > tastes, as bloated as Outlook.
                    >
                    >
                    > Though I haven't "played" with maildir format, your comment that it's
                    > a single file is the same problem with Microsoft's Exchange server
                    > with all email in one file -- that's the kiss of death when things go
                    > wrong which is common.

                    Hrrm, I obviously wasn't clear. mbox is one huge file, with various things
                    in the file to separate individual mails. Maildir makes each email message
                    a separate file.

                    >
                    >
                    > With mbox format mail every email is a separate file so generally one
                    > "might" lose one email if there is a disk error.

                    As I understand it, mbox keeps each mailbox as file--that is, if you have
                    inbox and no other mailboxes, it's one huge file composed of all your
                    emails.


                    --
                    Scott Robbins
                    PGP keyID EB3467D6
                    ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                    gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                  • thad_floryan
                    ... Hmmm. You re right and I m sort of correct. :-) It s been too long since I ve looked at the actual email hierarchy. I checked back in my archives and
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 15, 2013
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                      --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                      > On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 08:22:04PM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
                      > > [...]
                      > > Though I haven't "played" with maildir format, your comment that
                      > > it's a single file is the same problem with Microsoft's Exchange
                      > > server with all email in one file -- that's the kiss of death
                      > > when things go wrong which is common.
                      >
                      > Hrrm, I obviously wasn't clear. mbox is one huge file, with
                      > various things in the file to separate individual mails. Maildir
                      > makes each email message a separate file.
                      >
                      > > [...]
                      > > With mbox format mail every email is a separate file so generally
                      > > one "might" lose one email if there is a disk error.
                      >
                      > As I understand it, mbox keeps each mailbox as file -- that is, if
                      > you have inbox and no other mailboxes, it's one huge file composed
                      > of all your emails.

                      Hmmm. You're right and I'm "sort of" correct. :-)

                      It's been too long since I've looked at the actual email hierarchy. I
                      checked back in my archives and saw (and now remembered) I wrote a
                      program called mailsplit back in the 1980s that would examine an
                      inbox file and split it up into individual files based on the
                      "From " (that's "From" followed by a space) separator.

                      Dovecot's been running for so long now because it's the best for IMAP
                      and it's one of only three standards-compliant IMAP servers:

                      http://imapwiki.org/ImapTest/ServerStatus IMAP servers' status

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovecot_%28software%29

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbox

                      and Dovecot does have separate files for each email along with VERY
                      fast indexing and searching. Here's how many emails I have on my
                      server as of a minute ago across several hundred mail folders noting
                      several of the items counted are Dovecot's index files:

                      thadlabs bash 70971/70977> pwd
                      /usr/home/thad/mail
                      thadlabs bash 70971/70977> ls -lR | wc -l
                      32236
                      thadlabs bash 70971/70977>

                      I suppose I've been using Thunderbird for so long now (10 years)
                      that some of the various email setups are blurred in my memory; I
                      just leave everything now on the server (FreeBSD) so it's available
                      from any of my systems or even from anyplace in the world via the
                      webmail facility -- disk space is cheap. About once a year I tar
                      up the mail directory and copy that to a system on my LAN; there is
                      already a backup disk on the server with a copy of all the mail -- I
                      once had to restore an email from that backup disk on the server.

                      Thad
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