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Debian 7.0 released

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  • Thad Floryan
    At DistroWatch: http://distrowatch.com/7844 Debian GNU/Linux 7.0, a new stable version of the world s largest Linux distribution, has been released: After
    Message 1 of 22 , May 6, 2013
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      At DistroWatch: http://distrowatch.com/7844

      Debian GNU/Linux 7.0, a new stable version of the world's largest
      Linux distribution, has been released: "After many months of constant
      development, the Debian project is proud to present its new stable
      version 7.0. This new version of Debian includes various interesting
      features such as multiarch support, several specific tools to deploy
      private clouds, an improved installer, and a complete set of
      multimedia codecs and front-ends which remove the need for third-party
      repositories. Multiarch support, one of the main release goals for
      Wheezy, will allow Debian users to install packages from multiple
      architectures on the same machine. This means that you can now, for
      the first time, install both 32- and 64-bit software on the same
      machine and have all the relevant dependencies correctly resolved,
      automatically."

      Release anouncement:

      http://www.debian.org/News/2013/20130504

      Release note with technical details:

      http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/releasenotes
    • thad_floryan
      ... So, Debian is finally catching up to many other distros. :-) That should node well for Ubuntu, too. All of my present Ubuntu installs are 32-bit due to
      Message 2 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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        --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
        >
        > At DistroWatch: http://distrowatch.com/7844
        >
        > Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 ...
        > [...] Multiarch support, one of the main release goals for
        > Wheezy, will allow Debian users to install packages from multiple
        > architectures on the same machine. This means that you can now, for
        > the first time, install both 32- and 64-bit software on the same
        > machine and have all the relevant dependencies correctly resolved,
        > automatically."
        > [...]

        So, Debian is finally catching up to many other distros. :-)

        That should node well for Ubuntu, too. All of my present Ubuntu
        installs are 32-bit due to the CPUs (ARM and Intel) so I never noticed
        if Canonical had corrected that problem [before Debian just now did].

        The previous inability in Debian 6* and prior supporting a mixture of
        32-bit and 64-bit programs was the reason I abandoned Debian after a
        week and replaced it with OpenIndiana [which, BTW, is still releasing
        updates so it appears it's going to be around for awhile].

        Thad
      • thad_floryan
        ... node S/B bode . Stiff typing fingers after running some more Cat6 to finally 100% have a gigabit LAN after the new gigabit cable modem and the Cisco
        Message 3 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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          --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "thad_floryan" <thad@...> wrote:
          > [...]
          > That should node well for Ubuntu, too. All of my present Ubuntu
          > [...]

          "node" S/B "bode". Stiff typing fingers after running some more Cat6
          to finally 100% have a gigabit LAN after the new gigabit cable modem
          and the Cisco RVS4000 gigabit router. I still had one 10/100 switch
          that will be replaced today with a gigabit switch that I ordered from
          Newegg yesterday (Monday) and it'll be here today (Tuesday) with FREE
          shipping thanks to a new shipper OnTrac which only serves the Western
          USA as you can see:

          http://www.ontrac.com/

          Saved a bundle on the 16-port switch and I still cannot believe the new
          shipping which Newegg has been using for awhile now for one-day free
          delivery within the Western USA. Here's my shopping cart from yesterday
          at 1:43AM (lower right corner) and the OnTrac shipping info around mid
          afternoon yesterday:

          http://thadlabs.com/FILES/Newegg_shopping_cart_20130506.pdf 46kB

          http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Newegg_OnTrac_Shipping_20130507.png 93kB

          OnTrac has generally been delivering to me around noontime and sends
          an email arriving within 1-2 seconds or so of the actual delivery.
          Excellent service all around: Newegg and OnTrac.

          Thad
        • Scott
          ... Ubuntu s been able to do that relatively painlessly for awhile, I think. They have a package ia32libs or something like that which brings in the basic set
          Message 4 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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            On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 08:48:34AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
            > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > At DistroWatch: http://distrowatch.com/7844
            > >
            > > Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 ...
            > > [...] Multiarch support, one of the main release goals for
            > > Wheezy, will allow Debian users to install packages from multiple
            > > architectures on the same machine. This means that you can now, for
            > > the first time, install both 32- and 64-bit software on the same
            > > machine and have all the relevant dependencies correctly resolved,
            > > automatically."
            > > [...]
            >
            Ubuntu's been able to do that relatively painlessly for awhile, I think.
            They have a package ia32libs or something like that which brings in the
            basic set of 32 bit libs.

            Fedora also seems to have more or less solved it. If you, for example, on
            a 64 bit machine try to install Skype, which is only available in a 32 bit
            rpm, yum will automatically download all necessary 32 bit dependencies.

            However, I think Fedora's dropped some 32 bit package or another,
            so that it becomes problematic to run ldd on a 32 bit program.
            (Not tested by me for awhile, so that may have changed, might be
            glibc-devel.i686 or something like that.)



            --
            Scott Robbins
            PGP keyID EB3467D6
            ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
            gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
          • thad_floryan
            ... Really? I didn t know that because that means there was more of a disparity between Debian and Ubuntu than I ever thought which Ubuntu being more
            Message 5 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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              --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
              > On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 08:48:34AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
              > > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Thad Floryan <thad@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > At DistroWatch: http://distrowatch.com/7844
              > > >
              > > > Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 ...
              > > > [...] Multiarch support, one of the main release goals for
              > > > Wheezy, will allow Debian users to install packages from
              > > > multiple architectures on the same machine. This means that
              > > > you can now, for the first time, install both 32- and 64-bit
              > > > software on the same machine and have all the relevant
              > > > dependencies correctly resolved,
              > > > automatically."
              > > > [...]
              >
              > Ubuntu's been able to do that relatively painlessly for awhile, I
              > think. They have a package ia32libs or something like that which
              > brings in the basic set of 32 bit libs.

              Really? I didn't know that because that means there was more of a
              disparity between Debian and Ubuntu than I ever thought which Ubuntu
              being more "advanced" in that capability.

              > Fedora also seems to have more or less solved it.

              All other issues about Red Hat aside, their support for simultaneous
              32-/64-bit software on the same installation has been good for as long
              as I remember.

              What really blew my mind before the CentOS/RH "episode" in July 2012
              [ let's not revisit that :-) ] was that I copied a 32-bit executable
              from my Red Hat 9 system that I built using lex and yacc on a Solaris
              system for the better syntax tables and copied it into /usr/local/bin
              on my 64-bit CentOS box and it ran perfectly. That was very, very
              impressive. The GNU flex and bison just couldn't do as good a job
              with the complex syntax tables that compiled [to source code] on my
              Solaris box. For the curious, it's an appointment program that I have
              been using for decades to keep track of birthdates and other critical
              (to me) events.

              > If you, for example, on a 64 bit machine try to install Skype,
              > which is only available in a 32 bit rpm, yum will automatically
              > download all necessary 32 bit dependencies.

              I can't get excited about Skype. Now with my better LAN and faster
              speeds and a QoS-settable gigabit router, I'm thinking of Ooma as a
              complement to me being cell-phone-only since 2002. Ooma is a great
              operation (located in Silicon Valley) and constantly receiving
              accolades. Info here (they're about 5-6 miles from me):

              http://www.ooma.com/

              http://www.ooma.com/shop

              I see their stuff at Costco and everyone in the Usenet ba.internet
              group has only praise for Ooma.

              > However, I think Fedora's dropped some 32 bit package or another,
              > so that it becomes problematic to run ldd on a 32 bit program.
              > (Not tested by me for awhile, so that may have changed, might be
              > glibc-devel.i686 or something like that.)

              Hmmm, if so, that's another example of sloppy thinking. A lot of us
              are using 32-bit ARMs for servers and AFAIK there's no 64-bit ARM
              (yet?) and no Red Hat products for ARMs either; mine run Ubuntu and
              Debian.

              Thad
            • Scott
              ... The trouble is, that if one is, say, job hunting or something similar, Skype is almost a de facto standard, so, in situations where a prospective employer,
              Message 6 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 10:54:20AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:


                > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:


                > All other issues about Red Hat aside, their support for simultaneous
                > 32-/64-bit software on the same installation has been good for as long
                > as I remember.

                >
                > I can't get excited about Skype. Now with my better LAN and faster
                > speeds and a QoS-settable gigabit router, I'm thinking of Ooma as a
                > complement to me being cell-phone-only since 2002. Ooma is a great
                > operation (located in Silicon Valley) and constantly receiving
                > accolades. Info here (they're about 5-6 miles from me):

                The trouble is, that if one is, say, job hunting or something similar,
                Skype is almost a de facto standard, so, in situations where a prospective
                employer, or possibly a client, is going to use Skype, one has to use it.

                FWIW, google voice and chat seems to work equally well, and prices are in
                line with Skype (my wife uses Skype for calls to Japan).



                >
                > http://www.ooma.com/
                >
                > http://www.ooma.com/shop
                >
                > I see their stuff at Costco and everyone in the Usenet ba.internet
                > group has only praise for Ooma.


                With cell phones, most US calls are free anyway, (or included), and for
                her, it's the overseas stuff that's important.

                >
                > > However, I think Fedora's dropped some 32 bit package or another,
                > > so that it becomes problematic to run ldd on a 32 bit program.
                > > (Not tested by me for awhile, so that may have changed, might be
                > > glibc-devel.i686 or something like that.)
                >
                > Hmmm, if so, that's another example of sloppy thinking. A lot of us
                > are using 32-bit ARMs for servers and AFAIK there's no 64-bit ARM
                > (yet?) and no Red Hat products for ARMs either; mine run Ubuntu and
                > Debian.

                As I said, this is going by memory, and it's always possible it was a Just
                Me(TM) issue. 32 bit packges run without issue, but ldd is provided by the
                glibc-common package and I _think_ you might not be able to install it on
                64 bit Fedora.

                --
                Scott Robbins
                PGP keyID EB3467D6
                ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
              • thad_floryan
                ... Huh? Why? Skype cannot call a landline or a VoIP phones? I would not be surprised since Skype is *MICROSOFT*. :-) What capability of Skype is necessary
                Message 7 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                  --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                  > On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 10:54:20AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
                  > > [...]
                  > > All other issues about Red Hat aside, their support for
                  > > simultaneous 32-/64-bit software on the same installation has
                  > > been good for as long as I remember.
                  > > [...]
                  > > I can't get excited about Skype. Now with my better LAN and
                  > > faster speeds and a QoS-settable gigabit router, I'm thinking of
                  > > Ooma as a complement to me being cell-phone-only since 2002.
                  > > Ooma is a great operation (located in Silicon Valley) and
                  > > constantly receiving accolades. Info here (they're about 5-6
                  > > miles from me):
                  >
                  > The trouble is, that if one is, say, job hunting or something
                  > similar, Skype is almost a de facto standard, so, in situations
                  > where a prospective employer, or possibly a client, is going to use
                  > Skype, one has to use it.

                  Huh? Why? Skype cannot call a landline or a VoIP phones? I would
                  not be surprised since Skype is *MICROSOFT*. :-)

                  What capability of Skype is necessary for a phone interview? I don't
                  understand your comments above.

                  And here on Skype's own page http://about.skype.com/ we find:

                  Skype and Microsoft have big dreams

                  Now Skype is part of Microsoft. Together we will bring innovative
                  technology to friends, family and colleagues everywhere. And now
                  the future possibilities for our customers are even more
                  exciting. We will enable more people to connect in more ways that
                  transform and enhance their lives. And this is just the beginning.

                  You gonna do an employment "phone" interview unshaven and wearing
                  only your bathrobe and fluffy-bunny slippers? I think not! :-)

                  > FWIW, google voice and chat seems to work equally well, and prices
                  > are in line with Skype (my wife uses Skype for calls to Japan).

                  For those who don't know, landlines and copper phone service are going
                  the way of the dodo. Mosy of New York City still haven't any service
                  as of today which is 6 months after Sandy. Businesses are all going
                  belly-up because without landlines and cellphones business cannot
                  transact their businesses, restaurants cannot accept reservations,
                  and no one can call 911. New York blows badly, both the city and the
                  state, which are both fraught with corruption almost as bad as where
                  I am, California. Read and weep:

                  http://www.newnetworks.com/VerizonNYC.htm

                  which brings up a 5-page, 107kB PDF that's unbelievable. That PDF
                  contains some of the types of issues we've been discussing in Usenet's
                  comp.dcom.telecom group since 1981:

                  http://telecom-digest.org/

                  aka

                  http://massis.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/


                  > > > [...]
                  > > > However, I think Fedora's dropped some 32 bit package or
                  > > > another, so that it becomes problematic to run ldd on a 32 bit
                  > > > program.
                  > > > (Not tested by me for awhile, so that may have changed, might be
                  > > > glibc-devel.i686 or something like that.)
                  > >
                  > > Hmmm, if so, that's another example of sloppy thinking. A lot of
                  > > us are using 32-bit ARMs for servers and AFAIK there's no 64-bit
                  > > ARM (yet?) and no Red Hat products for ARMs either; mine run
                  > > Ubuntu and Debian.
                  >
                  > As I said, this is going by memory, and it's always possible it was
                  > a Just Me(TM) issue.

                  Understood. :-)

                  > 32 bit packges run without issue, but ldd is provided by the
                  > glibc-common package and I _think_ you might not be able to install
                  > it on 64 bit Fedora.

                  I'm not going to test it either; the present Fedoras are too bleeding
                  edge for my taste. I have a perfectly useable Fedora 9 system and a
                  Fedora Core 2 system along with two Red Hat 9 systems and that's more
                  than enough Red Hat stuff here.

                  Thad
                • Godwin Stewart
                  ... Skype *can* call PSTN lines, provided you add credit to a prepaid account. I don t know if it ll call a SIP account, for example. ... If both interviewer
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                    On 07/05/13 12:34, thad_floryan wrote:

                    > Huh? Why? Skype cannot call a landline or a VoIP phones? I would
                    > not be surprised since Skype is *MICROSOFT*. :-)

                    Skype *can* call PSTN lines, provided you add credit to a prepaid
                    account. I don't know if it'll call a SIP account, for example.

                    > What capability of Skype is necessary for a phone interview?

                    If both interviewer and interviewee are using Skype then the
                    communication, often a video call, is free of charge. That's why it's so
                    attractive to some people.

                    When I was looking for work some 18 months ago, numerous interviewers
                    wanted to use Skype to interview me. It's second best to a face-to-face
                    interview.

                    --
                    Godwin Stewart -- <grs.ygroups@...>
                  • Scott
                    ... Correcting my own FUD. :) ... Just tested this on Fedora 19, and I was wrong. One can easily install glibc.i686 and afterwards, can run ldd on a 32 bit
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                      On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 06:11:25AM -0400, Scott wrote:
                      >

                      Correcting my own FUD. :)



                      > However, I think Fedora's dropped some 32 bit package or another,
                      > so that it becomes problematic to run ldd on a 32 bit program.
                      > (Not tested by me for awhile, so that may have changed, might be
                      > glibc-devel.i686 or something like that.)

                      Just tested this on Fedora 19, and I was wrong. One can easily install
                      glibc.i686 and afterwards, can run ldd on a 32 bit binary.

                      --
                      Scott Robbins
                      PGP keyID EB3467D6
                      ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                      gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                    • Scott
                      ... Some interviewers want to have video chat, and see you as you re speaking. So, if they say Skype, as far as I know, one would have to be on a Skype account
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                        On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 11:34:47AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:

                        > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:


                        > > On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 10:54:20AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
                        > > > [...]
                        > >
                        > > The trouble is, that if one is, say, job hunting or something
                        > > similar, Skype is almost a de facto standard, so, in situations
                        > > where a prospective employer, or possibly a client, is going to use
                        > > Skype, one has to use it.
                        >
                        > Huh? Why? Skype cannot call a landline or a VoIP phones? I would
                        > not be surprised since Skype is *MICROSOFT*. :-)


                        > What capability of Skype is necessary for a phone interview? I don't
                        > understand your comments above.

                        Some interviewers want to have video chat, and see you as you're speaking.

                        So, if they say Skype, as far as I know, one would have to be on a Skype
                        account to be available.


                        > You gonna do an employment "phone" interview unshaven and wearing
                        > only your bathrobe and fluffy-bunny slippers? I think not! :-)

                        Again, this is video, so one dresses.

                        > transform and enhance their lives. And this is just the beginning.
                        >
                        >
                        > > FWIW, google voice and chat seems to work equally well, and prices
                        > > are in line with Skype (my wife uses Skype for calls to Japan).
                        >
                        > For those who don't know, landlines and copper phone service are going
                        > the way of the dodo. Mosy of New York City still haven't any service
                        > as of today which is 6 months after Sandy. Businesses are all going
                        > belly-up because without landlines and cellphones business cannot
                        > transact their businesses, restaurants cannot accept reservations,
                        > and no one can call 911. New York blows badly, both the city and the
                        > state, which are both fraught with corruption almost as bad as where
                        > I am, California. Read and weep:

                        I wouldn't say that most of the city didn't get it back. Parts. In our
                        case, we were quite fortunate, we never lost it. (As far as I know, we
                        almost never use the landline.)


                        --
                        Scott Robbins
                        PGP keyID EB3467D6
                        ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                        gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                      • Scott
                        ... Yes, that s what I was referring to when I mentioned my wife using it. In her case, Google s would work too. In this case, you are just calling any phone
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                          On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 12:39:30PM +0100, Godwin Stewart wrote:
                          > On 07/05/13 12:34, thad_floryan wrote:
                          >
                          > > Huh? Why? Skype cannot call a landline or a VoIP phones? I would
                          > > not be surprised since Skype is *MICROSOFT*. :-)
                          >
                          > Skype *can* call PSTN lines, provided you add credit to a prepaid
                          > account. I don't know if it'll call a SIP account, for example.

                          Yes, that's what I was referring to when I mentioned my wife using it. In
                          her case, Google's would work too. In this case, you are just calling any
                          phone (and yes, both can call mobile phones, the rate is somewhat different
                          though.)


                          --
                          Scott Robbins
                          PGP keyID EB3467D6
                          ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                          gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                        • thad_floryan
                          ... Hmmm. OK, well, I ve been out of the loop since 2008 when I had to shut down Levanta/Linuxcare when they went belly-up. ... Webcam and microphone/speakers
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                            --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <grs.ygroups@...> wrote:
                            > On 07/05/13 12:34, thad_floryan wrote:
                            > > [...]
                            > > Huh? Why? Skype cannot call a landline or a VoIP phones? I
                            > > would not be surprised since Skype is *MICROSOFT*. :-)
                            >
                            > Skype *can* call PSTN lines, provided you add credit to a prepaid
                            > account. I don't know if it'll call a SIP account, for example.

                            Hmmm. OK, well, I've been out of the loop since 2008 when I had to
                            shut down Levanta/Linuxcare when they went belly-up.

                            > > What capability of Skype is necessary for a phone interview?
                            >
                            > If both interviewer and interviewee are using Skype then the
                            > communication, often a video call, is free of charge. That's why
                            > it's so attractive to some people.

                            Webcam and microphone/speakers I presume. I've been doing that since
                            2000 when I setup a conference room for Sigaba, and the "calls" were
                            free then because they simply travelled the Internet.

                            OK, I just checked; Skype began in 2003, 3 years after AFTER I had
                            setup a video conference room using free software. Skype info here:

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype

                            I'm still not impressed. I'd usually be contacted by potential
                            clients' calls that'd wake me up and I'd be unshaven, etc. So with
                            Skype I'd have to shave, shower, and wear a 3-piece suit? Not for
                            me -- the only time I wear a tie is for weddings and funerals. :-)

                            > When I was looking for work some 18 months ago, numerous
                            > interviewers wanted to use Skype to interview me. It's second best
                            > to a face-to-face interview.

                            Remote teleconferencing is nothing new -- that was what I setup in
                            2000 with audio and video and the tech was already well-established.

                            I see Microsoft (via Skype) capturing and archiving EVERYTHING just
                            like Google does, which is why I don't use [much] Google stuff and
                            I never sign in to anything Google-related and I dropped all vendors
                            who forced customers to use Google Checkout. It's NONE OF THEIR DAMN
                            BUSINESS wich is why I've been recommending the NoScript, Ghostery,
                            and 'Google URL fix' for those who use Firefox like I do. The search
                            link fix is a tricky one and here is info about it (the NoScript and
                            Ghostery are quickly found using the AddOn search within Firefox):

                            https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google-search-link-fix/?src=cb-dl-hotness

                            Download:
                            https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/downloads/latest/351740/addon-351740-latest.xpi?src=search

                            http://www.ghacks.net/2012/01/11/display-direct-website-links-in-google-search/

                            http://www.consumingexperience.com/2009/10/google-search-results-redirection.html

                            Thad
                          • thad_floryan
                            ... Meaning also no using the web or tech books or ??? when needing to quickly find an answer to a question. Nasty. :-) ... That s good. I know only what I
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                              --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                              > On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 11:34:47AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:
                              > > [...]
                              > > What capability of Skype is necessary for a phone interview? I
                              > > don't understand your comments above.
                              >
                              > Some interviewers want to have video chat, and see you as you're
                              > speaking.
                              >
                              > So, if they say Skype, as far as I know, one would have to be on a
                              > Skype account to be available.
                              >
                              > > [...]
                              > > You gonna do an employment "phone" interview unshaven and wearing
                              > > only your bathrobe and fluffy-bunny slippers? I think not! :-)
                              >
                              > Again, this is video, so one dresses.

                              Meaning also no using the web or tech books or ??? when needing to
                              quickly find an answer to a question. Nasty. :-)

                              > > [ ...re: New York City, Hurricane Sandy, lack of telecom ...]
                              > I wouldn't say that most of the city didn't get it back. Parts.
                              > In our case, we were quite fortunate, we never lost it.

                              That's good. I know only what I read in the news and in the relevant
                              groups regarding such outages. I presume much is exaggerated. :-)

                              > (As far as I know, we almost never use the landline.)

                              I gave up landlines (voice, modems, and FAX) in 2002 when it simply
                              became too expensive.

                              Thad
                            • Godwin Stewart
                              ... Sure. I don t dispute that there are plenty of alternatives to Skype. I don t think anyone is. Skype, however, for its sins, is *the* service that everyone
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 7, 2013
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                                On 07/05/13 13:05, thad_floryan wrote:

                                > Webcam and microphone/speakers I presume. I've been doing that since
                                > 2000

                                Sure. I don't dispute that there are plenty of alternatives to Skype. I
                                don't think anyone is. Skype, however, for its sins, is *the* service
                                that everyone knows.

                                My own "PSTN" line is in fact VoIP based, hooked up to a SIP provider[1]
                                that gives me a DID number. When I try to explain to people that it
                                doesn't actually use a phone line but rather a DSL internet connection
                                (which goes over a phone line - aaaarghhh!!), the reaction to that is
                                invariably, "oh, you mean like Skype?"

                                Justified and/or desirable or not, Skype is what people know about and
                                tend to use. If a potential employer asks to set up a Skype call with
                                you and you reply with "sorry, I don't use Skype, I use service XYZ
                                instead, which does the same job without exposing my personal details to
                                $HUGE_CONGLOMERATE", all you'll achieve is coming across like some kind
                                of paranoid wingnut whose cellphone ringtone is the X-Files theme and
                                who expects someone who might (but probably won't, now) end up paying
                                your salary to switch to a tool that he's never heard of and doesn't
                                have the privileges to install on his machine anyway without calling the
                                IT department.

                                It's a "like it or lump it" thing, much like MS-Word. All of the
                                recruiters and employers I've dealt with demanded CVs in MS-Word format.
                                OK, I used something else to produce it, but I had to provide something
                                in *that* format, and I have to be able to open and use such documents too.

                                Remember, we're dealing with the unwashed masses here :)

                                > I'm still not impressed. I'd usually be contacted by potential
                                > clients' calls that'd wake me up and I'd be unshaven, etc. So with
                                > Skype I'd have to shave, shower, and wear a 3-piece suit? Not for
                                > me -- the only time I wear a tie is for weddings and funerals. :-)

                                :o)

                                Most interviews via Skype calls are pre-planned so you have plenty of
                                time to make yourself look presentable. For anything else you can still
                                sit there unshaven in your underwear scratching your unmentionables...



                                [1] - http://www.localphone.com/

                                --
                                Godwin Stewart -- <grs.ygroups@...>
                              • thad_floryan
                                ... OK. :-) I don t have to worry about interviews anymore. Speaking of which, there was an interesting comment today here:
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 8, 2013
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                                  --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <grs.ygroups@...> wrote:
                                  > On 07/05/13 13:05, thad_floryan wrote:
                                  > > [...]
                                  > [...]
                                  > Justified and/or desirable or not, Skype is what people know about
                                  > and tend to use. If a potential employer asks to set up a Skype call
                                  > with you and you reply with "sorry, I don't use Skype, I use service
                                  > XYZ instead, which does the same job without exposing my personal
                                  > details to $HUGE_CONGLOMERATE", all you'll achieve is coming across
                                  > like some kind of paranoid wingnut whose cellphone ringtone is the
                                  > X-Files theme and who expects someone who might (but probably won't,
                                  > now) end up paying your salary to switch to a tool that he's never
                                  > heard of and doesn't have the privileges to install on his machine
                                  > anyway without calling the IT department.

                                  OK. :-)

                                  I don't have to worry about interviews anymore. Speaking of which,
                                  there was an interesting comment today here:

                                  http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Cheaters-Never-Prosper.aspx

                                  " ALWAYS test candidates' coding ability:
                                  "
                                  " http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmers-program.html
                                  "
                                  " I interviewed one guy who spent over an hour trying to write a
                                  " a FizzBuzz routine. He had a masters degree in CS.

                                  I did much the same (testing candidates who were recent Stanford CS
                                  grads) and many simply did not qualify. I'm sure you remember my
                                  prior comments here about the falsehood of software "engineering". :-)

                                  > It's a "like it or lump it" thing, much like MS-Word. All of the
                                  > recruiters and employers I've dealt with demanded CVs in MS-Word
                                  > format. OK, I used something else to produce it, but I had to
                                  > provide something in *that* format, and I have to be able to open
                                  > and use such documents too.

                                  I've seen similar comments to yours many times before in groups and
                                  forums, but I never understood it because it wasn't clear whether the
                                  document had to be in raw "DOC" format or whether a finished PDF would
                                  suffice. FWIW, the last resume/CV I wrote was back in the 1960s using
                                  a typewriter for the Electronic Defense Labs -- I was already hired
                                  and they simply wanted "something" for their personnel records; I have
                                  never needed or prepared one since then.

                                  > Remember, we're dealing with the unwashed masses here :)

                                  Ah, yes, the GUM (Great Unwashed Masses). :-)

                                  > [...]
                                  > Most interviews via Skype calls are pre-planned so you have plenty
                                  > of time to make yourself look presentable. For anything else you
                                  > can still sit there unshaven in your underwear scratching your
                                  > unmentionables...

                                  Learn something new every day. Thank you and Scott Robbins for taking
                                  the time to explain the "Skype Requirement"; I was unaware of it,

                                  I also don't use Fecebook, LinkedIn, Twitter or anything similar.

                                  Thad
                                • Godwin Stewart
                                  ... Indeed I do, and I agree that a degree does not a good programmer make. Perhaps a good analyst, but not a good programmer. ... No, they usually demand a
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 9, 2013
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                                    On 09/05/13 07:50, thad_floryan wrote:

                                    > I did much the same (testing candidates who were recent Stanford CS
                                    > grads) and many simply did not qualify. I'm sure you remember my
                                    > prior comments here about the falsehood of software "engineering". :-)

                                    Indeed I do, and I agree that a degree does not a good programmer make.
                                    Perhaps a good analyst, but not a good programmer.

                                    > I've seen similar comments to yours many times before in groups and
                                    > forums, but I never understood it because it wasn't clear whether the
                                    > document had to be in raw "DOC" format or whether a finished PDF would
                                    > suffice.

                                    No, they usually demand a .doc (or .docx if you're lucky) file.

                                    From April 2012 to last month I served on the Area Executive of the
                                    National Association of Round Tables of Britain and Ireland as
                                    Membership, Media-PR and Internet Officer. I had to provide my quarterly
                                    reports to the Area Secretary in .doc files as well because he had to
                                    copy/paste the content of them into a master document that was
                                    distributed electronically to Area members prior to the meetings.

                                    A few years ago, when I was still translating liner notes for a record
                                    company based in Germany, they too demanded .doc files. With them I
                                    managed to get around that by actually providing HTML documents renamed
                                    as .doc and MS-Word their end would open it and display it correctly
                                    anyway. Not sure if I could get away with that with recruiters :)

                                    > I also don't use Fecebook, LinkedIn, Twitter or anything similar.

                                    I don't use Facebook any more. I did for a couple of years, or at least
                                    I had a Facebook account, but never really used it anyway so I deleted
                                    it altogether a few months ago.

                                    I do use twitter. It's a good means of keeping abreast of news and what
                                    friends across the globe are doing but without the extraneous cr4p and
                                    incessant "friend requests", invitations and various other unnecessary
                                    notifications. You stay much more in control of what you get in your inbox.

                                    This one's me: https://twitter.com/grshorwich

                                    --
                                    Godwin Stewart -- <grs.ygroups@...>
                                  • Scott
                                    ... Actually, they (the interviewing people), will probably just say Fine, never mind. Right now, it s a buyer s market. On some news page or another the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 9, 2013
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                                      On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 06:50:56AM -0000, Thad Floryan wrote:


                                      > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <grs.ygroups@...> wrote:
                                      > > On 07/05/13 13:05, thad_floryan wrote:
                                      > > > [...]
                                      > > [...]
                                      > > Justified and/or desirable or not, Skype is what people know about
                                      > > and tend to use. If a potential employer asks to set up a Skype call
                                      > > with you and you reply with "sorry, I don't use Skype, I use service
                                      > > XYZ instead, which does the same job without exposing my personal
                                      > > details to $HUGE_CONGLOMERATE", all you'll achieve is coming across
                                      > > like some kind of paranoid wingnut whose cellphone ringtone is the
                                      > > X-Files theme and who expects someone who might (but probably won't,
                                      > > now) end up paying your salary to switch to a tool that he's never
                                      > > heard of and doesn't have the privileges to install on his machine
                                      > > anyway without calling the IT department.

                                      Actually, they (the interviewing people), will probably just say Fine,
                                      never mind. Right now, it's a buyer's market. On some news page or
                                      another the other day, in one column, it mentioned jobless claims being
                                      down and in the adjoining column it mentioned an increase in suicide rates
                                      amongst 50 somethings, and quite seriously, I wondered if there was a
                                      connection.
                                      >

                                      > > It's a "like it or lump it" thing, much like MS-Word. All of the
                                      > > recruiters and employers I've dealt with demanded CVs in MS-Word
                                      > > format. OK, I used something else to produce it, but I had to
                                      > > provide something in *that* format, and I have to be able to open
                                      > > and use such documents too.

                                      Yes, the vast majority say attach a Word resume. Some put resume must be
                                      in pdf format (and often at the bottom, with at least one saying, To prove
                                      you've read the entire thing, send your resume in pdf format). One can
                                      produce the doc in Open or Libre Office, and export to PDF. This includes
                                      Linux positions.

                                      > > Most interviews via Skype calls are pre-planned so you have plenty
                                      > > of time to make yourself look presentable. For anything else you
                                      > > can still sit there unshaven in your underwear scratching your
                                      > > unmentionables...
                                      >
                                      > Learn something new every day. Thank you and Scott Robbins for taking
                                      > the time to explain the "Skype Requirement"; I was unaware of it,
                                      >
                                      In my case, there was one interviewer (the posting was for, among other
                                      things, using Google apps), who wanted to use Google hangout, and two
                                      others, both in California (I'm in NY, 3000 miles away), who requested
                                      Skype.


                                      > I also don't use Fecebook, LinkedIn, Twitter or anything similar.

                                      My wife finds Facebook handy for her studio, and I believe she uses Twitter
                                      as well. In her case, they're good tools for her needs. I don't use
                                      them, though I am on LinkedIn. I haven't found it too useful for a job
                                      search though and I see people I don't know recommending me for things I
                                      can't do. Well, not entirely true, but one person recommended me for
                                      things that I do not consider strengths and this person doesn't know me
                                      save through linkedin. On the other hand, I have gotten recommendations
                                      from people such as former bosses, so that part's good.


                                      --
                                      Scott Robbins
                                      PGP keyID EB3467D6
                                      ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                                      gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                                    • Scott
                                      ... Why docx if you re lucky? I ve been saving in .doc (the one usually labeled XP/2000/2003 format.) Is docx preferable. As a quick aside, I m finding that
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 9, 2013
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                                        On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 09:39:13AM +0100, Godwin Stewart wrote:
                                        > On 09/05/13 07:50, thad_floryan wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I've seen similar comments to yours many times before in groups and
                                        > > forums, but I never understood it because it wasn't clear whether the
                                        > > document had to be in raw "DOC" format or whether a finished PDF would
                                        > > suffice.
                                        >
                                        > No, they usually demand a .doc (or .docx if you're lucky) file.

                                        Why docx if you're lucky? I've been saving in .doc (the one usually
                                        labeled XP/2000/2003 format.) Is docx preferable.

                                        As a quick aside, I'm finding that both OpenOffice and LibreOffice have
                                        trouble with some docx documents--it seems to be connected to whether or
                                        not there are images, and it's only happened on about three files (all,
                                        ironically, for Linux jobs).

                                        > A few years ago, when I was still translating liner notes for a record
                                        > company based in Germany, they too demanded .doc files. With them I
                                        > managed to get around that by actually providing HTML documents renamed
                                        > as .doc and MS-Word their end would open it and display it correctly
                                        > anyway. Not sure if I could get away with that with recruiters :)

                                        See my earlier email. In this somewhat tight market, I wouldn't try to
                                        force the recruiters to do it my way.



                                        --
                                        Scott Robbins
                                        PGP keyID EB3467D6
                                        ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                                        gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                                      • Godwin Stewart
                                        ... Lucky in that you re dealing with someone who isn t forced to use decade-old software. They might be a bit less of an IT dinosaur where you re applying for
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 9, 2013
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                                          On 09/05/13 11:20, Scott wrote:

                                          >> No, they usually demand a .doc (or .docx if you're lucky) file.
                                          >
                                          > Why docx if you're lucky? I've been saving in .doc (the one usually
                                          > labeled XP/2000/2003 format.) Is docx preferable.

                                          Lucky in that you're dealing with someone who isn't forced to use
                                          decade-old software. They might be a bit less of an IT dinosaur where
                                          you're applying for the job.

                                          As far as I know, there's little advantage to .docx over .doc from a
                                          technical point of view.

                                          > As a quick aside, I'm finding that both OpenOffice and LibreOffice have
                                          > trouble with some docx documents--it seems to be connected to whether or
                                          > not there are images, and it's only happened on about three files (all,
                                          > ironically, for Linux jobs).

                                          I've noticed the same thing too. If you print the document the images
                                          don't come out. However, I think I was able to get it working properly
                                          by saving as either a .doc or a .odt, opening that and then printing.

                                          > See my earlier email. In this somewhat tight market, I wouldn't try to
                                          > force the recruiters to do it my way.

                                          Exactly!

                                          --
                                          Godwin Stewart -- <grs.ygroups@...>
                                        • Scott
                                          ... I would find that I d open it and get a blank page. I still have one around and just tried testing your solution of saving as doc and odt, and no
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 9, 2013
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                                            On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 11:25:56AM +0100, Godwin Stewart wrote:
                                            > On 09/05/13 11:20, Scott wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > As a quick aside, I'm finding that both OpenOffice and LibreOffice have
                                            > > trouble with some docx documents--it seems to be connected to whether or
                                            > > not there are images, and it's only happened on about three files (all,
                                            > > ironically, for Linux jobs).
                                            >
                                            > I've noticed the same thing too. If you print the document the images
                                            > don't come out. However, I think I was able to get it working properly
                                            > by saving as either a .doc or a .odt, opening that and then printing.

                                            I would find that I'd open it and get a blank page. I still have one
                                            around and just tried testing your solution of saving as doc and odt, and
                                            no luck--with doc, there was some print, but not enough to make sense of
                                            it. What I have done is either upload it to google docs which has been
                                            able to read it, or just transfer it to my wife's Mac which can read it
                                            with either Mac Office or Pages.

                                            Actually, I see I can just email it to my gmail account and that, I assume,
                                            uses google docs to view it.


                                            --
                                            Scott Robbins
                                            PGP keyID EB3467D6
                                            ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                                            gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                                          • Godwin Stewart
                                            ... Yep, that should work. And if you have cloud print set up you can print directly to your printer from there. -- Godwin Stewart --
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 9, 2013
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                                              On 09/05/13 11:59, Scott wrote:

                                              > Actually, I see I can just email it to my gmail account and that, I assume,
                                              > uses google docs to view it.

                                              Yep, that should work. And if you have cloud print set up you can print
                                              directly to your printer from there.

                                              --
                                              Godwin Stewart -- <grs.ygroups@...>
                                            • Scott
                                              ... Ah, that s very cool, I should probably set that up too. -- Scott Robbins PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 ) gpg
                                              Message 22 of 22 , May 9, 2013
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                                                On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 12:01:40PM +0100, Godwin Stewart wrote:
                                                > On 09/05/13 11:59, Scott wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Actually, I see I can just email it to my gmail account and that, I assume,
                                                > > uses google docs to view it.
                                                >
                                                > Yep, that should work. And if you have cloud print set up you can print
                                                > directly to your printer from there.


                                                Ah, that's very cool, I should probably set that up too.

                                                --
                                                Scott Robbins
                                                PGP keyID EB3467D6
                                                ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                                                gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
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