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Re: (Slashdot Article) How Apple Killed the Linux Desktop

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  • thad_floryan
    ... Hi Mike, OK, no problemo, but you might regret that, :-) According to the monthly energy report mailed (postal) to me each month, I have the lowest
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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      --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
      > > in 2009: SpaceSaver, Enhanced Quiet Touch, Pearl White, and PS2
      > > MiniDIN for US$69. You can see mine here:
      > >
      > > <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Thad_desk.jpg>
      > >
      > I don't know about the keyboard, Thad, but based on the number of
      > computers and workstations you've got set up, I won't trade electric
      > bills with you <grin>.

      Hi Mike,

      OK, no problemo, but you might regret that, :-)

      According to the monthly energy report mailed (postal) to me each month,
      I have the lowest electricity and gas usage in my neighborhood, lower
      than even that of folks who've spent $100,000 for solar and other green
      garbage. My home thermally leaks like a sieve (it was built in 1955
      and I bought it in 1966) so I simply wear an LL Bean fleece-lined
      flannel shirt inside during the winter.

      I was one of the first 100 households in California to have time of use
      metering so that's a big savings. My actual daily usage is only 15kW
      or so, sometimes peaking at 18kW (due to ironing shirts, etc.)

      I use at least one of my home theaters for 2-4 hours every day and
      one of them has a 2 HP sound system. Sometimes I'll have 2 ovens
      running along with items on the 4-burner stove and in the microwave.
      I have a laundry room (w/ gas dryer). What helps are the CFL and
      flourescent lighting and the fact I replaced all the computer power
      supplies with energy-efficient ones from Antec; most of my systems
      use only 40-50 Watts (and 4 W for the SheevaPlugs) measured using a
      bunch of Kill-A-Watts.

      Years ago my electric bill would run $300-$500/month when I kept all
      the UNIX boxes running 24/7/24 along with CRT monitors and also used
      the air conditioner; I have since covered insides of the roofs and
      many windows with a product called ReflexcTix:

      <http://www.reflectixinc.com/>

      and that's made a big difference even though the reason I did that was
      to block sunlight so I could watch movies daytime in a darkened room.

      Here's a copy of my September 2012 bill that I just scanned, $61.59
      (sometimes my water bill is higher during the months I remember to
      water the lawn):

      <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/PG+E_Sept_2012.jpg>

      :-)

      Thad
    • thad_floryan
      ... You may get a kick out of seeing these PDFs which I use to track water and electrical use; I should do one for gas, too, but the meter is in an awkward
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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        --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "thad_floryan" <thad@...> wrote:
        > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@> wrote:
        > > > in 2009: SpaceSaver, Enhanced Quiet Touch, Pearl White, and PS2
        > > > MiniDIN for US$69. You can see mine here:
        > > >
        > > > <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Thad_desk.jpg>
        > > > [...]
        > >
        > > I don't know about the keyboard, Thad, but based on the number of
        > > computers and workstations you've got set up, I won't trade
        > > electric
        > > bills with you <grin>.
        >
        > Here's a copy of my September 2012 bill that I just scanned, $61.59
        > (sometimes my water bill is higher during the months I remember to
        > water the lawn):
        >
        > <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/PG+E_Sept_2012.jpg>

        You may get a kick out of seeing these PDFs which I use to track water
        and electrical use; I should do one for gas, too, but the meter is in an
        awkward location to read but it's now WiFI'd so I probably should find
        a way to hack into it for daily reads. My new PG&E meter is WiFI'd,
        too, and it's still time-of-use (higher rate between 12noon and 6pm).

        Note I create forms like the following using xfig which I've used for
        27 years now to also do circuit schematics, signs, etc. Info:

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xfig>

        Here are the forms; note the lower left corner (small print) of each
        which shows where the source file for the form is located:

        <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_SM.pdf>
        <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_TOU.pdf>
        <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/water_meter_reads.pdf>

        Here's an example of an xfig doorknob sign for UPS so I don't have to
        be bothered answering the door to sign for a package that can be
        safely left at the door:

        <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/doorknob_example.pdf>

        Thad
      • Mike Adams
        ... I must say I m extremely impressed. BTW, my wife and I came very close to moving to the Sacramento area recently. I m originally from Oklahoma, she s
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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          > Here's a copy of my September 2012 bill that I just scanned, $61.59
          > (sometimes my water bill is higher during the months I remember to
          > water the lawn):
          >
          > <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/PG+E_Sept_2012.jpg>
          >
          I must say I'm extremely impressed. BTW, my wife and I came very close
          to moving to the Sacramento area recently. I'm originally from
          Oklahoma, she's from St. Louis, and we're now in Albuquerque by way of
          North-Central Texas. We were told the weather there was very nice, and
          I'm sure that contributes to your low bills. Where I'm from, we usually
          had the highest temperature in the country a dozen times or so in the
          summer and freezing rain during the winters.

          However, your situation just goes to prove you can make a difference in
          your individual costs if you know what to do and how to do it.

          Congrats!

          Mike


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mike Adams
          ... I just can t help asking...who s Magdalena and where do you plug her in? ;) ... Hopefully UPS won t get upset over you using their trademark label .
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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            > Here are the forms; note the lower left corner (small print) of each
            > which shows where the source file for the form is located:

            > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_SM.pdf>
            > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_TOU.pdf>
            > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/water_meter_reads.pdf>

            I just can't help asking...who's Magdalena and where do you plug her in? ;)

            > Here's an example of an xfig doorknob sign for UPS so I don't have to
            > be bothered answering the door to sign for a package that can be
            > safely left at the door:

            > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/doorknob_example.pdf>

            Hopefully UPS won't get upset over you using their trademark label <grin>.

            Mike


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Al Thompson
            ... She was the daughter of smog-fill Los Angeles! -- ... My bands, CD projects, music, news, and pictures: http://www.lateralforce.com My blog, with
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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              On 09/01/2012 04:25 AM, Mike Adams wrote:
              >> Here are the forms; note the lower left corner (small print) of each
              > > which shows where the source file for the form is located:
              >
              > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_SM.pdf>
              > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_TOU.pdf>
              > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/water_meter_reads.pdf>
              >
              > I just can't help asking...who's Magdalena and where do you plug her in? ;)

              She was the daughter of smog-fill Los Angeles!


              --
              ---
              My bands, CD projects, music, news, and pictures:

              http://www.lateralforce.com


              My blog, with commentary on a variety of things, including audio,
              mixing, equipment, etc, is at:
              http://audioandmore.wordpress.com


              Staat heißt das kälteste aller kalten Ungeheuer. Kalt lügt es auch;
              und diese Lüge kriecht aus seinem Munde: 'Ich, der Staat, bin das Volk.'
              - [Friedrich Nietzsche]
            • thad_floryan
              ... Good thing you didn t; Sacramento is a den of inequity and crime due to it being the state capitol. Police forces have been reduced in most major
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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                --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                > > Here's a copy of my September 2012 bill that I just scanned, $61.59
                > > (sometimes my water bill is higher during the months I remember to
                > > water the lawn):
                > >
                > > <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/PG+E_Sept_2012.jpg>
                >
                > I must say I'm extremely impressed. BTW, my wife and I came very
                > close to moving to the Sacramento area recently.

                Good thing you didn't; Sacramento is a den of inequity and crime due
                to it being the state capitol. Police forces have been reduced in
                most major California cities. San Jose CA is now wide-open with a
                smaller force and an inability to respond to most crimes. Read some
                back issues of the San Hoser's Mockery, er, Murky, er, Mercury News
                Action Line column for info <http://www.mercurynews.com/action-line/>.

                Oakland and San Francisco have extremely high crime rates with police
                corruption and they mostly fail to charge felons at all and let them
                go free. Frisco being a "sanctuary city" also allows illegal aliens
                to roam the streets unhindered and murder people almost daily.

                The entire state is a mess with over $500 Billion ($500,000,000,000)
                in unfunded retirement debt and another $50 Billion "simple" debt.

                > I'm originally from Oklahoma, she's from St. Louis, and we're now
                > in Albuquerque by way of North-Central Texas.

                I have many fond memories of New Mexico (working at White Sands, etc.)

                > We were told the weather there was very nice, and I'm sure that
                > contributes to your low bills.

                Weather here has changed dramatically over the years. As an avid
                astronomer since the early 1950s I liked my backyard when I bought
                the house in 1966 because I could see the entirety of the Milky Way,
                M31 (Andromeda Galaxy) was a huge naked-eye object, and one could
                read newspapers outside at night using starlight. No more. It's one
                huge supercity now from San Jose up to Frisco, paved all the way,
                where there used to be miles of agriculture between each city until
                1970 or so.

                You can see the climate and astronomical viewing status of my back
                yard here -- many locals use that page because it includes all the
                Clear Sky Chart areas (charted by Canadian satellites (and, yes, I
                know this is "SIlicon Valley")) within a 10-mile radius of me:

                <http://thadlabs.com/view-bracket.htm>

                > Where I'm from, we usually had the highest temperature in the
                > country a dozen times or so in the summer and freezing rain during
                > the winters

                In the 1960s and up to mid-1970s here my 4-tiered backyard waterfall
                would freeze 2" thick during the Winter and I'd have to use a sledge
                to daily break the ice so birds would have drinking and bathing
                water. Never again since, and temps have been as high here as 117°F
                (47.2°C); I run a weather station at home; you can see some of the
                sensors here on the tower:

                <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/LX200/index.html>

                > However, your situation just goes to prove you can make a
                > difference in your individual costs if you know what to do and how
                > to do it.

                I'm technically retired now and I control my budget better that I
                used to do. It takes a certain discipline that a lot of people
                simply don't have. :-)

                > Congrats!

                Thanks!

                Thad
              • thad_floryan
                ... She was the housekeeper for some 25+ years. Sadly she injured her leg badly during a visit to relatives in Mexico and she wasn t able to work anymore;
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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                  --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Here are the forms; note the lower left corner (small print) of each
                  > > which shows where the source file for the form is located:
                  >
                  > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_SM.pdf>
                  > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_TOU.pdf>
                  > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/water_meter_reads.pdf>
                  >
                  > I just can't help asking...who's Magdalena and where do you plug
                  > her in? ;)

                  She was the housekeeper for some 25+ years. Sadly she injured her
                  leg badly during a visit to relatives in Mexico and she wasn't able
                  to work anymore; luckily she has (had?) a husband who worked and had
                  some income, too. And, yes, she was an American citizen who spoke
                  more English (perhaps 20 words) than I speak Spanish (10 words you
                  don't want to know); now if she spoke German, I'd probably be OK. :-)


                  > > Here's an example of an xfig doorknob sign for UPS so I don't
                  > > have to be bothered answering the door to sign for a package that
                  > > can be safely left at the door:
                  >
                  > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/doorknob_example.pdf>
                  >
                  > Hopefully UPS won't get upset over you using their trademark label
                  > <grin>.

                  Heh! I've never been hassled by that and the doctrine of fair use in
                  this regards would get me off anyway. I have similar ones for Airborne,
                  DHL, FedEx, Purolator, Roadway, and USPS. I get a lot of deliveries
                  from Frys and Newegg and also telescope stuff and machine tools that
                  are not available locally. I have a modest woodworking and machine
                  shop at home, too, and build a lot of things; one example:

                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/14_lift_1.jpg>
                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/14_lift_1a.jpg>
                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/14_lift_1b.jpg>
                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/14_lift_2.jpg>
                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/14_lift_3.jpg>
                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/14_lift_4.jpg>
                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/14_lift_5.jpg>

                  I lifted, transported and solo setup that scope (125 lbs, 57 kg) 3
                  times before recognizing it was an accident waiting to happen since
                  I once slipped on my dewed lawn one night carrying another scope (and
                  fully recovered my balance with no damage or injury) for which I now
                  use a golf cart for safety (not because I can't carry it):

                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/OTA_on_cart.jpg>

                  I build small things too: <http://thadlabs.com/Illuminator/index.html>

                  Thad
                • thad_floryan
                  ... Headslap & facepalm -- I ve been sitting here reading a book, nibbling on cashews, sipping Madeira and listening to music when your question just now sank
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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                    --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Here are the forms; note the lower left corner (small print) of each
                    > > which shows where the source file for the form is located:
                    >
                    > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_SM.pdf>
                    > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/elec_meter_reads_TOU.pdf>
                    > > <http://thadlabs.com/FILES/water_meter_reads.pdf>
                    >
                    > I just can't help asking...who's Magdalena and where do you plug her
                    > in? ;)

                    Headslap & facepalm -- I've been sitting here reading a book, nibbling
                    on cashews, sipping Madeira and listening to music when your question
                    just now sank in.

                    Magdalena (when she was able to work before her leg injury) would do
                    all the cleaning, etc. etc. while everyone else was out of the house
                    at work, so I'd check electrical usage on the days she worked (note I
                    have time-of-use metering) to see if there was anything unusual due
                    to watching movies, running my machine tools, cooking a week's food,
                    etc. but there never were any apparent ones even with vacuuming and
                    laundry. She also worked at two of my neighbor's homes on different
                    days of the week and I trusted her with a house key because I'd be
                    gone for work usually before she would arrive (weekly).

                    Thad
                  • thad_floryan
                    ... One final time -- we ve been getting off-topic so I ll put it back on topic for this final post in the original thread w/ new subject. Magdalena is also
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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                      --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                      > [...]
                      > I just can't help asking...who's Magdalena and where do you plug her
                      > in? ;)
                      > [...]

                      One final time -- we've been getting off-topic so I'll put it back on
                      topic for this final post in the original thread w/ new subject.

                      Magdalena is also the reason I wrote about lex, yacc (originals of
                      GNU flex & bison) in these articles:

                      <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/60516>
                      Sun Apr 1, 2012 10:56 pm
                      "Amazing (to me) inter-Linux OS compatibility"

                      <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/60521>
                      Mon Apr 2, 2012 10:12 pm
                      "lex, yacc, flex & bison"

                      <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/60718>
                      Sat Jun 2, 2012 8:46 pm
                      "Re: More Apple hosery of CUPS>

                      Sigh, I'm still very disappointed and PO'd the douchebags of RedHat/
                      CentOS hosed my system after re-reading some of the above articles.

                      Thad
                    • Mike Adams
                      ... I had Spanish in college (it was taught by a fellow who only knew Portuguese...). In high school, I had two years of Latin because we didn t have to speak
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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                        > She was the housekeeper for some 25+ years. Sadly she
                        > injured her leg badly during a visit to relatives in Mexico
                        > and she wasn't able to work anymore; luckily she has (had?)
                        > a husband who worked and had some income, too. And, yes,
                        > she was an American citizen who spoke more English
                        > (perhaps 20 words) than I speak Spanish (10 words you don't
                        > want to know); now if she spoke German, I'd probably be OK. :-)

                        I had Spanish in college (it was taught by a fellow who only knew
                        Portuguese...). In high school, I had two years of Latin because we
                        didn't have to speak it...just did LOTS of translations. It helped me
                        tremendously with my understanding of English, however, and
                        since I was an English major planning to teach English, that was
                        helpful.

                        > I have a modest woodworking and machine shop at home,
                        > too, and build a lot of things

                        I've got limited talent in those areas. My uncle got all those genes
                        and could do just about anything you can imagine.

                        (Guess we ought get back on topic and say "Linux" a few times
                        to keep from getting complaints...grin.)

                        Mike
                      • Mike Adams
                        ... About 8 or 9 years ago, I purchased a version of RedHat so I could get the manual and everything else, but discovered my system didn t meet the basic
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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                          > Sigh, I'm still very disappointed and PO'd the douchebags
                          > of RedHat/CentOS hosed my system after re-reading
                          > some of the above articles.

                          About 8 or 9 years ago, I purchased a version of RedHat so I could get
                          the manual and everything else, but discovered my system didn't meet the
                          basic requirements when it arrived. It's still all in a box somewhere,
                          and I may run across it when we move. My goal at the time was just to
                          get something different to fiddle around with, and I was really
                          disappointed when I realized doing so was going to have to wait for a
                          new computer. Then I lost track of things for a while after we moved
                          and I got involved with a new job.

                          About two years ago, the company I worked for started development on a
                          new piece of hardware that also required a lot of programming. The
                          fellow they hired was a little like you are. He was a good programmer,
                          but he loved the hardware and engineering side of things. He used
                          Fedora almost exclusively and was trying constantly to convert me, and
                          though I was reluctant to make a change at the time, I listened to what
                          he said, and a lot of it made sense. Mind you, my beginnings with
                          computers got its start back in '83 when my brother (a consummate trader
                          by nature) brought home a VIC-20 and couldn't figure out what to do with
                          it. After a lazy Saturday afternoon playing around with it, I was hooked.

                          He's also responsible for me getting back in the mood to use Linux. His
                          laptop system crashed and he couldn't get Windows to run properly.
                          Somehow or another he got hold of a copy of Ubuntu, installed it, and
                          fell in love with it, so now I had two people preaching Linux in my
                          direction. I resurrected that old desktop with Windows 95 on it, erased
                          it in an install of Ubuntu and started experimenting. Eventually I
                          installed it alongside Windows 7 on my laptop, but I didn't like the way
                          the shared system worked, and finally took the plunge and reinstalled it
                          on the system (erasing Windows forever). I've spent the last three or
                          four months exploring other distributions.

                          I'm certainly not to the point where any of what happened to you with
                          the CentOS and RedHat changes would have even impacted on me. My use of
                          a computer doesn't require that level of operation. Losing OpenOffice
                          would have surprised me, but I would have just reinstalled it and moved
                          on. I programmed back in the Commodore days, but I was never "good" at
                          it though many people thought I was. I knew I didn't have the real
                          talent for it and was just a dabbler.

                          However, I do have some udnerstanding of what you're talking about. I
                          use LibreOffice primarily because it comes preinstalled in the distro I
                          use, but I only use the word processor and the presentation software. I
                          tried uninstalling the spreadsheet and database because I knew I'd never
                          use them, but along the way lost discovered there were some dependencies
                          between them, so I haven't fiddled with them since. I could switch to
                          OpenOffice fairly easily, of course, but I have no need for the entire
                          suite in its case either. For the moment, it's not a big issue with
                          me. I think I've read somewhere that the next iteration of Ubuntu will
                          have Abiword instead of LibreOffice, and I suppose that's because they
                          are wanting to control the size of the distro.

                          I'm beginning to "accept" Ubuntu's default desktop now that I've finally
                          learned enough about desktops and customization to make it more usable.
                          It's installed on my laptop alongside Linux Mint (MATE). That old
                          desktop has Mint XFCE on it primarily because I like XFCE and don't like
                          LDXE (which would probably be a better suited desktop for it due to its
                          limitations).

                          Mike
                        • thad_floryan
                          ... Hi Mike, Ah, but I did reinstall OpenOffice though other bugs with RHEL/CentOS prevented it from appearing in the Applications- Office menu; in fact the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
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                            --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                            > [...]
                            > I'm certainly not to the point where any of what happened to you
                            > with the CentOS and RedHat changes would have even impacted on me.
                            > My use of a computer doesn't require that level of operation.
                            > Losing OpenOffice would have surprised me, but I would have just
                            > reinstalled it and moved on.

                            Hi Mike,

                            Ah, but I did reinstall OpenOffice though other bugs with RHEL/CentOS
                            prevented it from appearing in the Applications->Office menu; in fact
                            the Office menu itself would not return even though it shows in the
                            alacarte program (which is what's used to edit the menus). So I had
                            to create a top-bar launcher and that worked fine. But read further
                            down. Here's after reinstallation of OpenOffice; note the bugs:

                            <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/CentOS_OO_restored.jpg>
                            <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/ThadOS_6.3_alacarte_gnome.jpg>
                            <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/ThadOS_6.3_apache-openoffice.jpg>

                            Then, later, the Redhat/CentOS douchebags did another untested update
                            which clobbered libraries used by both OpenOffice and GoogleEarth, and
                            now neither of those two apps function any more. System is hosed, and
                            I have NO idea what it'll take to get those programs running again
                            other than to wipeout CentOS and install anything other than a toy OS
                            such as RHEL or CentOS. That subsequent update FUBAR library delete
                            is documented here:

                            <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/61028>
                            Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:23 pm
                            "Hasta la vista CentOS/RHEL -- avoid it like the plague"

                            Bastards.


                            > I programmed back in the Commodore days, but I was never "good" at
                            > it though many people thought I was. I knew I didn't have the real
                            > talent for it and was just a dabbler.

                            So did I and I still have what may arguably be the world's largest
                            C64 re: disk drives and other accessories. I was also an Amiga
                            developer and helped run FAUG (First Amiga Users Group) and BAADGE
                            (Bay Area Amiga Developers GroupE). Our FAUG meetings started in a
                            church hall in Belmont CA because the church thought a "users group"
                            was some kind of drug rehabilitation organization and didn't charge us
                            rental fees for the hall! :-) Later we moved the meetings to the
                            Palo Alto Hyatt where we'd often have 2,000 to 3,000 members attend
                            especially on nights when Electronic Arts appeared. I demo'd the
                            MARBLE MADNESS game in front of that group and won! I also arranged for the BAADGE meetings to be at the auditorium at SLAC (Stanford
                            Linear Accelerator Center) because I had friends there; Xerox-PARC's auditorium wasn't large enough. I still have 3 functional Amiga's
                            two of which I upgraded to MC68010 and MC68020 CPUs and SCSI disks.


                            > However, I do have some udnerstanding of what you're talking about.
                            > I use LibreOffice primarily because it comes preinstalled in the
                            > distro I use, but I only use the word processor and the
                            > presentation software. I tried uninstalling the spreadsheet and
                            > database because I knew I'd never use them, but along the way lost discovered there were some dependencies between them, so I haven't
                            > fiddled with them since.

                            That's understandable because those multiple programs are all part
                            of the same software suite.

                            Here's something insane and verifies RedHat/CentOS developers are
                            total idiots: when I attempted to delete LibreOffice from CentOS
                            it mentioned it would delete Firefox also. WTF?! So I deleted
                            LibreOffice simply by going to where it was on the disk and simply

                            # rm -r .* *

                            but that still left LibreOffice dingleberries randomly located on the
                            system which required explicit deletes.


                            > I could switch to OpenOffice fairly easily, of course, but I have
                            > no need for the entire suite in its case either. For the moment,
                            > it's not a big issue with me.

                            But what was the issue? Surely not disk space.

                            > I think I've read somewhere that the next iteration of Ubuntu will
                            > have Abiword instead of LibreOffice, and I suppose that's because
                            > they are wanting to control the size of the distro.

                            That doesn't make any sense. I wonder where Ubuntu is going. Read
                            this page:

                            <http://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/turnkey-12>

                            and scroll down to this section:

                            Ubuntu vs Debian: the heart says Ubuntu, but the brains says Debian

                            whose sub-sections are:

                            Ubuntu supports less than 25% of available packages with security
                            updates

                            Debian releases are much more bug-free and stable

                            Ubuntu's commercial support is not available for TurnKey anyhow

                            Note the above is TURNkey linux, not Turkey linux. :-)

                            > I'm beginning to "accept" Ubuntu's default desktop now that I've
                            > finally learned enough about desktops and customization to make it
                            > more usable.
                            > It's installed on my laptop alongside Linux Mint (MATE). That old
                            > desktop has Mint XFCE on it primarily because I like XFCE and don't
                            > like LDXE (which would probably be a better suited desktop for it
                            > due to its limitations).

                            The Ubuntus I have (8.04.4 and 9.04) I'll keep running forever because
                            the 8.04.4 is great on one of my laptops-as-a-desktop and 9.04 runs my
                            SheevaPlug LAN servers.

                            Thad
                          • thad_floryan
                            ... The above should be: underscore _ between apache and openoffice
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "thad_floryan" <thad@...> wrote:
                              > [...]
                              > <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/ThadOS_6.3_apache-openoffice.jpg>
                              > [...]

                              The above should be:

                              <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/ThadOS_6.3_apache_openoffice.jpg>

                              underscore "_" between apache and openoffice
                            • Michael Klinosky
                              ... No problem. I don t take stuff personally. I figure that, if a person is taking the time to correspond, it s to inform me. ... was a summary. Yup, I ll
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On 09/01/2012 12:47 AM, thad_floryan wrote:
                                > No disrespect intended

                                No problem. I don't take stuff personally. I figure that, if a person is
                                taking the time to correspond, it's to inform me.

                                > but it would appear you only read the Slashdot
                                > summary that Allen posted.
                                >
                                > You really need to real the full WIRED article if you haven't already:
                                >
                                > <http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/08/osx-killed-linux/>

                                :) Funny how you knew that I didn't. Frankly, I thought that the quote
                                was a summary. Yup, I'll read the article.
                              • Mike Adams
                                ... So what distro are you looking at as a replacement (I m sure you re giving that matter some consideration)? ... I must confess that I miss the C128 and
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > Then, later, the Redhat/CentOS douchebags did another untested update
                                  > which clobbered libraries used by both OpenOffice and GoogleEarth, and
                                  > now neither of those two apps function any more. System is hosed, and
                                  > I have NO idea what it'll take to get those programs running again
                                  > other than to wipeout CentOS and install anything other than a toy OS
                                  > such as RHEL or CentOS. That subsequent update FUBAR library delete
                                  > is documented here:
                                  >
                                  So what distro are you looking at as a replacement (I'm sure you're
                                  giving that matter some consideration)?
                                  >
                                  > So did I and I still have what may arguably be the world's largest
                                  > C64 re: disk drives and other accessories. I was also an Amiga
                                  > developer and helped run FAUG (First Amiga Users Group) and BAADGE
                                  > (Bay Area Amiga Developers GroupE).
                                  >
                                  I must confess that I miss the C128 and Amiga. A friend and I operated
                                  a BBS for 10 years, starting with the C64 and eventually moving to an AT
                                  we built from spare parts. Even when we ran it on the AT, we supported
                                  only Commodore users in the filebase. I was newsletter editor for our
                                  own local Commodore user group for most of that ten years. Fun days!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I could switch to OpenOffice fairly easily, of course, but I have
                                  > > no need for the entire suite in its case either. For the moment,
                                  > > it's not a big issue with me.
                                  >
                                  > But what was the issue? Surely not disk space.
                                  >
                                  Habit more than anything else. Back in the days when hard drives were
                                  incredibly expensive, I generally cleaned them of anything I wasn't
                                  using. At times it's also the knowledge that if I ever needed to do
                                  what those programs did, I'd rather choose the ones I used.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ubuntu supports less than 25% of available packages with security
                                  > updates
                                  >
                                  > Debian releases are much more bug-free and stable
                                  >
                                  > Ubuntu's commercial support is not available for TurnKey anyhow
                                  >
                                  > Note the above is TURNkey linux, not Turkey linux. :-)
                                  >
                                  Here's where I've got a beef with most of the Linux distros (other than
                                  those related to Ubuntu). Admittedly, it's a fixable beef, but it's a
                                  big one for the moment. When it comes to installing an OS, I don't have
                                  the knowledge (or confidence) at the moment to know what to do and how
                                  to do it when it comes to partitioning a hard drive and setting up the
                                  booting software. I've got some resources available for study, and I'll
                                  eventually get around to it, but for the moment, I figure a LOT of
                                  potential Linux users are like me when it comes to installing a system.
                                  Ubuntu's installer is easy to use, and it has the option available for
                                  those with the skill and knowledge to fiddle around more if desired. If
                                  the designers of Linux distributions want to increase their user-base,
                                  one way is to tone down the technical skills and knowledge necessary to
                                  install them in the first place.

                                  I looked at Debian a while back... I couldn't figure out how to install
                                  it. It was asking questions I didn't know the answers to, and I didn't
                                  understand enough to even ask the right questions to get the answers.
                                  Even Linux Mint's Debian edition made some assumptions that created a
                                  problem for me when I installed it a while back (though I eventually
                                  blundered into the answer, I still have no clear understanding as to why
                                  the problem existed in the first place when it was so easy to avoid
                                  it). The next time I feel like wiping things and starting over, I may
                                  give it a try again.

                                  Another issue I've got is easier to fix in some respects. Linux
                                  software (not the OS software) in many cases is brilliantly functional,
                                  but the look and feel is often non-intuitive and clumsy. It's getting
                                  better. In fact, though I do not like the KDE desktop, some of the
                                  software designed for KDE has a great look and feel.
                                  >
                                  > The Ubuntus I have (8.04.4 and 9.04) I'll keep running forever because
                                  > the 8.04.4 is great on one of my laptops-as-a-desktop and 9.04 runs my
                                  > SheevaPlug LAN servers.
                                  >
                                  That's the beauty of things. If it's working and meets your needs,
                                  there's no driving need to change.

                                  Mike


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • thad_floryan
                                  ... Hi Michael, Super! That s a great attitude to have; I wish more folks did. ... Heh! I could write it s ESP and I might not be far from the truth.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Michael Klinosky <mpk2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On 09/01/2012 12:47 AM, thad_floryan wrote:
                                    > > No disrespect intended
                                    >
                                    > No problem. I don't take stuff personally. I figure that, if a
                                    > person is taking the time to correspond, it's to inform me.

                                    Hi Michael,

                                    Super! That's a great attitude to have; I wish more folks did.

                                    > > but it would appear you only read the Slashdot
                                    > > summary that Allen posted.
                                    > >
                                    > > You really need to real the full WIRED article if you haven't
                                    > > already:
                                    > >
                                    > > <http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/08/osx-killed-linux/>
                                    >
                                    > :) Funny how you knew that I didn't. Frankly, I thought that the
                                    > quote was a summary. Yup, I'll read the article.

                                    Heh! I could write "it's ESP" and I might not be far from the truth.

                                    There've been too times when I could just "look" at something and get
                                    to the heart of the matter, or be able to respond to a question that
                                    a person was just getting ready to ask. It's a "talent" that has
                                    served me well my entire life and really came in handy understanding
                                    and fixing computer, network and other problems at work that others
                                    hadn't even characterized yet. "Reading between the lines" of what
                                    someone has written is associated with that ability -- perhaps it's
                                    just the way I'm "wired" to communicate or akin to how investigators
                                    can "sense" when a person is telling the truth or not though I've
                                    never had any training in that regards. Dunno.

                                    I need to re-read the WIRED article again; I only skimmed it due to
                                    time but it was clear there were some salient points being made.

                                    Thad
                                  • thad_floryan
                                    ... OpenIndiana was suggested by Ed in this article 30-AUG-2012: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:19 am Re: [linux]
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Then, later, the Redhat/CentOS douchebags did another untested
                                      > > update which clobbered libraries used by both OpenOffice and
                                      > > GoogleEarth, and now neither of those two apps function any more.
                                      > > System is hosed, and I have NO idea what it'll take to get those
                                      > > programs running again other than to wipeout CentOS and install
                                      > > anything other than a toy OS such as RHEL or CentOS.
                                      > > [...]
                                      >
                                      > So what distro are you looking at as a replacement (I'm sure you're
                                      > giving that matter some consideration)?

                                      OpenIndiana was suggested by Ed in this article 30-AUG-2012:

                                      <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/61074>
                                      Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:19 am
                                      Re: [linux] Re: What distro now? ...

                                      I downloaded the Live DVD ISO and a lot more things worked on the
                                      HP dc5850 than did with CentOS so it's already better in that regards.
                                      It's Solaris-based which is fine with me since I'm very familiar with
                                      that OS family as I've written here many times before.

                                      Another distro was revealed to me on DistroWatch after that named
                                      SchilliX but that's too new to really consider for my purposes. I
                                      need stability. The final choice looks like it will be between
                                      OpenIndiana and FreeBSD. Here's my screenshot of OpenIndiana:

                                      <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/OpenIndiana_Live_DVD_desktop.jpg>

                                      I have some more comments about it in this article:

                                      <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/61101>
                                      Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:52 pm
                                      Re: OpenIndiana -- possible total replacement for RHEL and CentOS

                                      Note CentOS couldn't support the onboard chip audio of the HP dc5850.

                                      > [...]
                                      > I looked at Debian a while back... I couldn't figure out how to
                                      > install it. It was asking questions I didn't know the answers to,
                                      > and I didn't understand enough to even ask the right questions to
                                      > get the answers.
                                      > [...]

                                      Understood. My gripe with Debian for which I could never get an
                                      answer was "which of the 60+ CDs or 10+ DVDs does one need to download
                                      to install Debian?", so I said to hell with it. True enterprise-class
                                      systems (Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc.) don't require that many disks so
                                      that was a clear sign that Debian is as disorganized as RedHat, et al.


                                      > [...]
                                      > Another issue I've got is easier to fix in some respects. Linux
                                      > software (not the OS software) in many cases is brilliantly
                                      > functional, but the look and feel is often non-intuitive and
                                      > clumsy. It's getting better.

                                      Developers for the most part are NOT designers. Human interface
                                      design is beyond the capabilities of most people without training.
                                      Professional designers (think $$$) are needed for best results and
                                      that's not going to happen in the free open-source community unless
                                      a professional(s) donates their time.

                                      > In fact, though I do not like the KDE desktop, some of the
                                      > software designed for KDE has a great look and feel.

                                      I can believe it. KMahjongg on CentOS is subjectively much better
                                      than the Gnome (?) Mahjongg. They're both good games to play while
                                      on the phone. :-)

                                      > > The Ubuntus I have (8.04.4 and 9.04) I'll keep running forever
                                      > > because the 8.04.4 is great on one of my laptops-as-a-desktop and
                                      > > 9.04 runs my SheevaPlug LAN servers.
                                      > >
                                      > That's the beauty of things. If it's working and meets your needs,
                                      > there's no driving need to change.

                                      That was my expectation with CentOS but it's clear now their promise
                                      of support until November 30, 2020 was an empty lie since they could
                                      not support it properly between March 2012 and August 2012. CentOS
                                      violated every aspect of what an enterprise-class system should be.

                                      Thad
                                    • Mike Adams
                                      ... I ve got a good friend (the fellow I used to operate the BBS with) who s an IT guy at a college in West Texas right now, and he told me he s using FreeBSD
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 1, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > Another distro was revealed to me on DistroWatch after that named
                                        > SchilliX but that's too new to really consider for my purposes. I
                                        > need stability. The final choice looks like it will be between
                                        > OpenIndiana and FreeBSD. Here's my screenshot of OpenIndiana:
                                        >
                                        I've got a good friend (the fellow I used to operate the BBS with) who's
                                        an IT guy at a college in West Texas right now, and he told me he's
                                        using FreeBSD on his home network, and he's pretty happy with it.
                                        >
                                        > Understood. My gripe with Debian for which I could never get an
                                        > answer was "which of the 60+ CDs or 10+ DVDs does one need to download
                                        > to install Debian?", so I said to hell with it. True enterprise-class
                                        > systems (Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc.) don't require that many disks so
                                        > that was a clear sign that Debian is as disorganized as RedHat, et al.
                                        >
                                        They've got it down to 8 DVDs now, though I've got a live version on a
                                        DVD with Fedora, OpenSUSE, Mint, and Ubuntu. It's got four different
                                        boot sequences, and none of them boot up successfully on my desktop
                                        (they do on my laptop). They've got an online manual just to do the
                                        installation. It gets back to my earlier statement that the
                                        installation process has to be user-friendly or a lot of folks won't
                                        bother (of course the Debian folks may not care).
                                        >
                                        > Developers for the most part are NOT designers. Human interface
                                        > design is beyond the capabilities of most people without training.
                                        > Professional designers (think $$$) are needed for best results and
                                        > that's not going to happen in the free open-source community unless
                                        > a professional(s) donates their time.
                                        >
                                        I understand what you mean. actually, that's how I learned what little
                                        I knew about programming when I had the C-64. There was lots of PD
                                        software that "did the job" but that was about all it did. I'd go in an
                                        clean it up and give it a better look and feel. Unfortunately, as I
                                        said, I was more of a dabbler than a real programmer and knew where my
                                        limitations were.
                                        >
                                        > I can believe it. KMahjongg on CentOS is subjectively much better
                                        > than the Gnome (?) Mahjongg. They're both good games to play while
                                        > on the phone. :-)
                                        >
                                        This is a good case in point. KMahjongg has a much better look and feel
                                        than Gnome Mahjongg though they're both very playable. In fact, the
                                        only thing either of them need to take them to the next level is some
                                        simple sound effects. While most folks are visual in nature, having
                                        some auditory feedback increases the enjoyment of a game and the
                                        effectiveness of the learning process. You can go overboard with things
                                        like that, of course (witness the Ultimate Edition distro).

                                        Mike


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • thad_floryan
                                        ... West Texas. Hmmm, UTEP [UT El Paso]]? My web-site/email-server has been running FreeBSD since 1995 or so, so I m very familiar with FreeBSD and friends.
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 2, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Another distro was revealed to me on DistroWatch after that named
                                          > > SchilliX but that's too new to really consider for my purposes. I
                                          > > need stability. The final choice looks like it will be between
                                          > > OpenIndiana and FreeBSD. Here's my screenshot of OpenIndiana:
                                          > >
                                          > I've got a good friend (the fellow I used to operate the BBS with
                                          > who's an IT guy at a college in West Texas right now, and he told
                                          > me he's using FreeBSD on his home network, and he's pretty happy
                                          > with it.

                                          West Texas. Hmmm, UTEP [UT El Paso]]?

                                          My web-site/email-server has been running FreeBSD since 1995 or so,
                                          so I'm very familiar with FreeBSD and friends.

                                          > > [...]
                                          > > Understood. My gripe with Debian for which I could never get an
                                          > > answer was "which of the 60+ CDs or 10+ DVDs does one need ...
                                          >
                                          > They've got it down to 8 DVDs now, though I've got a live version
                                          > on a DVD with Fedora, OpenSUSE, Mint, and Ubuntu. It's got four
                                          > different boot sequences, and none of them boot up successfully on
                                          > my desktop (they do on my laptop).

                                          Hmmm, sounds like a SATA CD/DVD drive problem. Not the hardware but
                                          the software. Which of the 4 distros (above) is running [presumably]
                                          grub to perform the booting?

                                          If I had to guess, I'd say Fedora is the one since it has a long
                                          history of errors with booting Live distros. CentOS, too, which
                                          inherited the problem from Red Hat and I reported the bug in 2008 and
                                          it's still not fixed (though a Live CD for CentOS 5 is useless today):

                                          <http://bugs.centos.org/view.php?id=3123>

                                          > [...]
                                          > This is a good case in point. KMahjongg has a much better look and
                                          > feel than Gnome Mahjongg though they're both very playable. In
                                          > fact, the only thing either of them need to take them to the next
                                          > level is some simple sound effects. While most folks are visual in
                                          > nature, having some auditory feedback increases the enjoyment of a
                                          > game and the effectiveness of the learning process.

                                          Precisely! Which is why I like "Mahjong Titans" on Vista/Win7. :-)

                                          That is another issue with CentOS: it couldn't do anything with the
                                          audio chip on my HP dc5850 but both OpenIndiana and WinXP handle it
                                          fine -- the system double boots from one of 2 HDs. The WinXP came
                                          bundled with the $130 special-deal computer from NewEgg and I added a
                                          500MB disk for CentOS which will soon be wiped and hosting a
                                          different OS.

                                          > You can go overboard with things like that, of course (witness the
                                          > Ultimate Edition distro).

                                          I haven't "played" with Ultimate Edition, but I need audio for most
                                          the games I play [mostly on my Windows systems and some on Linux].

                                          Years back here I posted the instructions on how to download and
                                          build "Penguin Command" which is the best clone of the arcade game
                                          "Missile Command". It has to be compiled on the system upon which
                                          it will run. I provided the names of the items needed for Ubuntu;
                                          check these articles I posted (it's really a GOOD game):

                                          <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/54320>
                                          Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:21 am
                                          "Distro upgrades (WAS: Re: HP LaserJet 6P Help)"

                                          Full details for Ubuntu in this one:
                                          <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/58614>
                                          Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:12 pm
                                          "Linux games for the kiddies during the upcoming holidays>

                                          <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/60537>
                                          Wed Apr 4, 2012 8:32 pm
                                          "Flight simulators for Linux"

                                          Thad
                                        • thad_floryan
                                          ... Odd, that one is missing. Luckily I had a copy of it -- I save everything I post in files which can be quickly searched locally since Yahoo s search,
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 2, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "thad_floryan" <thad@...> wrote:
                                            > [...]
                                            > Years back here I posted the instructions on how to download and
                                            > build "Penguin Command" which is the best clone of the arcade game
                                            > "Missile Command". It has to be compiled on the system upon which
                                            > it will run. I provided the names of the items needed for Ubuntu;
                                            > check these articles I posted (it's really a GOOD game):
                                            >
                                            > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/54320>
                                            > Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:21 am
                                            > "Distro upgrades (WAS: Re: HP LaserJet 6P Help)"
                                            > [...]

                                            Odd, that one is missing. Luckily I had a copy of it -- I save
                                            everything I post in files which can be quickly searched locally since
                                            Yahoo's search, ahem, leaves a lot to be desired. :-)

                                            The relevant portion of that message is copy and pasted below:

                                            [...]
                                            From my notes, the one you would want is this one:

                                            <http://www.linux-games.com/penguin-command/>

                                            The dependencies are/were the requirement for the SDL libs; the
                                            minimum required was (on Ubuntu):

                                            libsdl1.2debian
                                            libsdl1.2debian-all
                                            libsdl1.2-dev
                                            libsdl1.2-image1.2
                                            libsdl1.2-image1.2-dev
                                            libsdl1.2-mixer1.2
                                            libsdl1.2-mixer1.2-dev

                                            The sound (the SDL libs) and animated graphics are great.
                                          • thad_floryan
                                            ... It just gets better and better; here is the download list today at the above URL: Penguin Command 1.6.11 for Linux (source) Penguin Command 1.6.11 for
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 2, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "thad_floryan" <thad@...> wrote:
                                              > [...]
                                              > From my notes, the one you would want is this one:
                                              >
                                              > <http://www.linux-games.com/penguin-command/>
                                              > [...]

                                              It just gets better and better; here is the download list today at
                                              the above URL:

                                              Penguin Command 1.6.11 for Linux (source)
                                              Penguin Command 1.6.11 for Windows
                                              Penguin Command 1.6.9 for MacOS X
                                              Penguin Command for debian
                                              Penguin Command for FreeBSD
                                              Penguin Command for BeOS
                                              Penguin Command for Solaris
                                              Penguin Command for Amiga OS4
                                              Penguin Command 0install interface (linux/i386)
                                              Penguin Command for AROS

                                              Seeing this note is surprising:

                                              removed the great tune Penguin Night since it seemed to cause
                                              random crashes. Better solutions are very welcome. See the bug
                                              report for details

                                              <http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=184437\%22>

                                              Don't click on the bug report URL on the linux-games.com page -- the
                                              URL is hosed. I extracted the above URL from the mess.

                                              That bug report is dated 2003 and there are some patches, but the
                                              tune plays fine on my Ubuntu 8.04.4 system and doesn't crash after
                                              15 minutes like some of followup reports state.

                                              Interesting: no Red Hat and derivatives are in the above download
                                              list; why am I not surprised? Maybe RedHat's douchebaggery began
                                              just after my great 2003 RedHat 9 distro was released. :-)

                                              Thad
                                            • Scott
                                              ... Out of curiosity, what repos did that? Neither OpenOffice nor Google Earth are from any official repos, so I have a feeling you re aiming at the wrong
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 2, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                On Sun, Sep 02, 2012 at 04:07:39AM -0000, thad_floryan wrote:
                                                > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Mike Adams <coss_michael@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > Then, later, the Redhat/CentOS douchebags did another untested
                                                > > > update which clobbered libraries used by both OpenOffice and
                                                > > > GoogleEarth, and now neither of those two apps function any more.
                                                > > > System is hosed, and I have NO idea what it'll take to get those
                                                > > > programs running again other than to wipeout CentOS and install
                                                > > > anything other than a toy OS such as RHEL or CentOS.
                                                > > > [...]

                                                Out of curiosity, what repos did that? Neither OpenOffice nor Google Earth
                                                are from any official repos, so I have a feeling you're aiming at the wrong
                                                target with the douchebag sobriquet, and are actually targeting one of the
                                                volunteer groups, such as Dag, who recently, IIRC, became a dad, or
                                                possibly Axel. Also, it certainly should NOT be aimed at the CentOS
                                                people--they follow RH, so if RH does it, they will do it. It's plainly
                                                stated in many places that they aim to be binary compatible--regardless,
                                                neither OpenOffice nor GoogleEarth are official RedHat packages, so they're
                                                not supported.

                                                >
                                                > Another distro was revealed to me on DistroWatch after that named
                                                > SchilliX but that's too new to really consider for my purposes.

                                                That is probably pretty much a Jorge Schilling one man deal, as far as I
                                                can tell. (He's the one who wrote the original cdrecord, and will show up
                                                in many places when people have trouble with wodim to talk about how wrong
                                                it is that one doesn't use the actual cdrecord. I don't really know the
                                                whole story on that one.)


                                                I
                                                > need stability. The final choice looks like it will be between
                                                > OpenIndiana and FreeBSD. Here's my screenshot of OpenIndiana:
                                                >
                                                > <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/OpenIndiana_Live_DVD_desktop.jpg>
                                                >
                                                > I have some more comments about it in this article:
                                                >
                                                > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/message/61101>
                                                > Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:52 pm
                                                > Re: OpenIndiana -- possible total replacement for RHEL and CentOS
                                                >
                                                Thad writes:

                                                > Note CentOS couldn't support the onboard chip audio of the HP dc5850.

                                                Note RedHat couldn't support the onboard chip audio of the HP dc5850.
                                                (FTFY).

                                                In many cases, a request to elrepo may get you a driver for a specific
                                                card. By the way, one of the El Repo guys works for NASA, and has begun
                                                to get annoyed at my, "You don't need to be a rocket
                                                scientist...oh...wait" jokes. :) I think the rest of them are all
                                                biochemists.


                                                > > [...]
                                                > > I looked at Debian a while back... I couldn't figure out how to
                                                > > install it. It was asking questions I didn't know the answers to,
                                                > > and I didn't understand enough to even ask the right questions to
                                                > > get the answers.
                                                > > [...]
                                                >
                                                > Understood. My gripe with Debian for which I could never get an
                                                > answer was "which of the 60+ CDs or 10+ DVDs does one need to download
                                                > to install Debian?", so I said to hell with it. True enterprise-class
                                                > systems (Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc.) don't require that many disks so
                                                > that was a clear sign that Debian is as disorganized as RedHat, et al.

                                                Well, they were Gnu, so their documentation was meant to be confusing. :)
                                                It was probably there somewhere. On the other hand, in fairness, I never
                                                had trouble figuring out what I wanted. However, I also only wanted a very
                                                minimal install, figuring I'd build it up later.

                                                >
                                                > That was my expectation with CentOS but it's clear now their promise
                                                > of support until November 30, 2020 was an empty lie since they could
                                                > not support it properly between March 2012 and August 2012. CentOS
                                                > violated every aspect of what an enterprise-class system should be.

                                                No. I'm sorry. They support official packages. That does not include OO
                                                and Google Earth.

                                                I know it is horribly aggravating when a favored package gets dropped. The
                                                one thing about CentOS (and the BSDs) is that if you ask nicely, they may
                                                work with you to try to keep something in there. The big ones, like RH,
                                                probably won't.

                                                Also, keep in mind that OO became an Oracle package (before going to
                                                Apache) and RH and Oracle are no longer friends, to gravely understate the
                                                issues.


                                                At any rate, though, as I have often said, I would not compare your
                                                knowledge and experience with mine (hrrm--that could be taken either way,
                                                in this case, I meant that I feel you are FAR more knowledgeable and
                                                experienced than I am), I feel that your constant attacks against RH and
                                                CentOS are undeserved in this case. There's a lot of stuff RH does that
                                                does merit attack though.

                                                --
                                                Scott Robbins
                                                PGP keyID EB3467D6
                                                ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                                                gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6


                                                Angel: It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You
                                                walked down the steps. And I loved you.
                                                Buffy: Why?
                                                Angel: 'Cause I could see your heart. You held it before you for
                                                everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And
                                                more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe, to warm it
                                                with my own.
                                                Buffy: That's beautiful. Or taken literally, incredibly gross.
                                                Angel: I was just thinking that, too.
                                              • Scott
                                                On Sun, Sep 02, 2012 at 07:41:17AM -0400, Scott wrote: I want to add some things--my Internet was getting flaky so I closed early. ... What I wanted to add was
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 2, 2012
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                                                  On Sun, Sep 02, 2012 at 07:41:17AM -0400, Scott wrote:

                                                  I want to add some things--my Internet was getting flaky so I closed early.
                                                  >
                                                  > Out of curiosity, what repos did that? Neither OpenOffice nor Google Earth
                                                  > are from any official repos, so I have a feeling you're aiming at the wrong
                                                  > target with the douchebag sobriquet, and are actually targeting one of the
                                                  > volunteer groups, such as Dag, who recently, IIRC, became a dad, or
                                                  > possibly Axel. Also, it certainly should NOT be aimed at the CentOS
                                                  > people--they follow RH, so if RH does it, they will do it. It's plainly
                                                  > stated in many places that they aim to be binary compatible--regardless,
                                                  > neither OpenOffice nor GoogleEarth are official RedHat packages, so they're
                                                  > not supported.

                                                  What I wanted to add was that I DO, in many cases, agree with Thad's
                                                  sobriquet, though his particular one has been overused, in regards to RH.
                                                  They are, in my less than humble opinion, taking many things that are being
                                                  developed in and for a desktop oriented distribution and putting it into
                                                  their server distro. For example, Anaconda--they basically crippled text
                                                  installation. For RH/CentOS/SL and Oracle Linux 6, textmode was only
                                                  usable with kickstart--otherwise, one had to use the GUI to be able to
                                                  customize package selection and partitioning--to add insult to injury, the
                                                  GUI frequently doesn't work on various, common video cards.

                                                  That's only one. My argument is partially with getting on the CentOS people, as
                                                  they are only following their mission statement, and several of their
                                                  folks, with, I might immodestly add, with my assistance, are quick to
                                                  report the bugs that make it from Fedora (where they might not be bugs,
                                                  aimed at the inexperienced), into RH, and also try to document the things
                                                  that RH doesn't feel are worth mentioning, such as moving all named files
                                                  to a new location.

                                                  My other argument is that the two packages in question aren't official.
                                                  There was a lot of stuff going on between Oracle and RH, mainly that where
                                                  they'd worked together, suddenly Ellison decided to make his own Oracle
                                                  Linux, which is pretty much RedHat rebranded and sell it for less. The
                                                  dropping of OpenOffice for LibreOffice was something that was pretty well
                                                  publicized--which doesn't mean I feel Thad should have known it by osmosis,
                                                  but honestly, it was a change that every other comment I've read on the
                                                  CentOS mailing lists and forums, as well as the SL forums was glad to see..
                                                  I include myself--on CentOS, others, as well as myself were unable to get
                                                  Japanese working in OpenOffice, whether from repo, or OO's binaries. (Also
                                                  a problem in Slackware, from what I found when trying to solve it.)


                                                  Anyway, Internet is still cutting in and out today, so will end here.


                                                  --
                                                  Scott Robbins
                                                  PGP keyID EB3467D6
                                                  ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                                                  gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

                                                  Buffy: So, something ripped him open and ate out his
                                                  insides.
                                                  Willow: Like an Oreo cookie. Well, except for, you know, without the
                                                  chocolatey cookie goodness.
                                                • Mike Adams
                                                  ... No...it s UT Permian Basin in Odessa. ... Of the five, only Ubuntu and Mint will boot up on the old desktop. They re all on a DVD that was developed by one
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 2, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    >
                                                    > West Texas. Hmmm, UTEP [UT El Paso]]?
                                                    >
                                                    No...it's UT Permian Basin in Odessa.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > They've got it down to 8 DVDs now, though I've got a live version
                                                    > > on a DVD with Fedora, OpenSUSE, Mint, and Ubuntu. It's got four
                                                    > > different boot sequences, and none of them boot up successfully on
                                                    > > my desktop (they do on my laptop).
                                                    >
                                                    > Hmmm, sounds like a SATA CD/DVD drive problem. Not the hardware but
                                                    > the software. Which of the 4 distros (above) is running [presumably]
                                                    > grub to perform the booting?
                                                    >
                                                    > If I had to guess, I'd say Fedora is the one since it has a long
                                                    > history of errors with booting Live distros. CentOS, too, which
                                                    > inherited the problem from Red Hat and I reported the bug in 2008 and
                                                    > it's still not fixed (though a Live CD for CentOS 5 is useless today):
                                                    >
                                                    Of the five, only Ubuntu and Mint will boot up on the old desktop.
                                                    They're all on a DVD that was developed by one of the Linux magazines,
                                                    and they have a booting program that jumps to secondary booting
                                                    programs. I suspect you're right, though. Only Ubuntu, Mint and
                                                    related programs will boot up on this particular system. My laptop
                                                    doesn't have that problem.

                                                    However, right now I've got Mint XFCE running on it, and I'm very happy
                                                    with it, so I'll probably leave it along for a while.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > You can go overboard with things like that, of course (witness the
                                                    > > Ultimate Edition distro).
                                                    >
                                                    > I haven't "played" with Ultimate Edition, but I need audio for most
                                                    > the games I play [mostly on my Windows systems and some on Linux].
                                                    >
                                                    Give it a Ultimate Edition a look-see sometime if you want to see what
                                                    happens when you try to dress up a distro too much. It's nice to look
                                                    at until you realize all the bells and whistles have gone over-board and
                                                    that anything you do to change it may break it (and I mean ANYTHING).

                                                    Mike


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Mike Adams
                                                    ... I ll take a look at it. I ve got libsdl-mixer1.2 (at least that s the name I ve been using) very useful for getting the typewriter sound on FocusWriter to
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 2, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      > >From my notes, the one you would want is this one:
                                                      >
                                                      > <http://www.linux-games.com/penguin-command/>
                                                      >
                                                      > The dependencies are/were the requirement for the SDL libs; the
                                                      > minimum required was (on Ubuntu):
                                                      >
                                                      > libsdl1.2debian
                                                      > libsdl1.2debian-all
                                                      > libsdl1.2-dev
                                                      > libsdl1.2-image1.2
                                                      > libsdl1.2-image1.2-dev
                                                      > libsdl1.2-mixer1.2
                                                      > libsdl1.2-mixer1.2-dev
                                                      >
                                                      > The sound (the SDL libs) and animated graphics are great.
                                                      >
                                                      I'll take a look at it. I've got libsdl-mixer1.2 (at least that's the
                                                      name I've been using) very useful for getting the typewriter sound on
                                                      FocusWriter to work. I'm old-fashioned and like the sound effect when
                                                      I'm typing (wore out a few typewriters back in the days before word
                                                      processors and computers). I turned something in for a journalism class
                                                      once in college and the professor told me to get another typewriter (as
                                                      if a college student could run out and do that in those days).

                                                      Mike


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