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Re: OT The Doctor (Was Re: [linux] vim)

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  • J
    ... And before long we ll have the US version too... though the tardis will be a large freezer because no one in America knows what a Police Call Box is
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 17, 2012
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      On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
      > Yes, we missed them in Central Park (a friend and I were thinking of going
      > to try to watch them film), but either late this month or September. Not
      > sure when it comes out in the states, but I'm usually able to get a hold of
      > it pretty quickly. As River would say, No spoilers. :)

      And before long we'll have the US version too... though the tardis
      will be a large freezer because no one in America knows what a Police
      Call Box is anyway. ;-)
    • thad_floryan
      ... Disks are so inexpensive nowadays my jaw drops and hits the floor when I open the several emails from Newegg and Frys each day. It was just yesterday that
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 17, 2012
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        --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, ed <ed@...> wrote:
        > [...]
        > We don't have emacs at work and it isn't installed here (I'm
        > actually really short of disk space, really short (my main computer
        > is a laptop and it's struggling)).

        Disks are so inexpensive nowadays my jaw drops and hits the floor when
        I open the several emails from Newegg and Frys each day. It was just
        yesterday that I saw a 2TB Western Digital Caviar Black (WD's premium
        best) for just a wee bit over US$100 with the [unique] promo codes
        from Newegg. Unbelievable.


        > There is a developer at work who uses just emacs, hates vi but
        > understands it enough to edit files in place on the live servers. He
        > said there were things that emacs could do that were not possible
        > in vim that were important for his work, but the only thing he
        > could come up with at the time was conditional regular expressions,
        > (basically /gc in vim).

        Heh. vi (or vim) can be implemented WITHIN emacs, it's that powerful
        as I'm very aware since I've been using it since 1975. I got my first
        Emacs tape from a department at the Pentagon (a customer of mine at
        the time); I later received a tape directly hand-passed from RMS. He
        actually wore a coat and tie back then and he was cleanly-shaven.

        > I should learn emacs, but since I cannot use it at work I'd have
        > trouble making anything I learn stick.

        Interestingly, HP Labs was a customer of mine back then, too, and
        everyone there used Emacs including the secretaries. The built-in
        tutorial takes about 30 minutes to navigate and impart enough info
        to be able to use emacs effectively.

        > Plain old vi though, that's horrid in my eyes and a good
        > understanding of registers to ensure you don't overwrite
        > that which is in the copy buffer (since solaris vi has only
        > one level of undo) is essential.

        Wow, I didn't realize that level of limitation.

        Don't laugh, but one other editor I still use is ed because way back
        then (beginning of UNIX) it was the only editor small enough to fit
        on a boot floppy. I even used ed for the initial config and setup of
        my SheevaPlugs running Ubuntu 9.04 three years ago -- it's easy to use:

        To access official Ubuntu documentation, please visit:
        http://help.ubuntu.com/
        Last login: Thu Aug 16 22:15:23 2012 from regulus

        root@lanserv1:~# date
        Fri Aug 17 19:46:30 PDT 2012

        root@lanserv1:~# uname -a
        Linux lanserv1 2.6.22.18 #1 Thu Mar 19 14:46:22 IST 2009 \
        armv5tejl GNU/Linux

        root@lanserv1:~# pwd
        /root

        root@lanserv1:~# ls
        discoverd foo foo.c hw hw.c

        root@lanserv1:~# ed foo.c
        45
        1,$p
        #include <stdio.h>
        main(){printf("test\n");}
        s/test/NEW test/
        w
        49
        q

        root@lanserv1:~# make foo
        cc foo.c -o foo

        root@lanserv1:~# ./foo
        NEW test

        root@lanserv1:~#

        and there's <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/SheevaPlug_Webmin.jpg>

        :-)
      • Herbert R Coburn
        ... The command man elvis gave the command to quit on the very first page, near the bottom. Sometimes, the man pages really do contain useful information.
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 21, 2012
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          On 08/17/2012 10:47 AM, Scott wrote:
          > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 01:34:34AM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
          >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, thad_floryan wrote:
          >>
          >
          >> >
          >> > More importantly: how does one exit vim ? I had to kill the xterm in
          >> > which I entered the vim command.

          The command 'man elvis' gave the command to quit on the very first page,
          near the bottom. Sometimes, the man pages really do contain useful
          information.

          Googling 'quit vi' returns 104,000,000 (that's 104 million) results.
          Most of the hits on the first page explain how to quit vi in the Google
          excerpt so you don't even have to jump to the linked page.

          Typing the command 'vi' then double-tapping the tab key lists all the
          commands beginning with vi. One of them is vimtutor. Entering the command
          'vimtutor' brings up a nice little 30 minute tutorial that will get
          you started with vi.

          vi (vim/elvis) happens to be the fastest text editor for me. The one or two
          keystroke commands are faster for me than stretching my little finger
          to the control key (a requirement in emacs), or taking my hand off the
          keyboard to move the mouse.

          >>
          >> That's the only thing I know in vi[m]:
          >>
          >> ZZ or :q<RET>
          >>
          >
          > You might even need the ! after the q. There's an amusing Typical First Vi
          > session somewhere, full of ^C and so on.
          >
          > --
          > Scott Robbins
          [snip]

          I think your Typical First Vi session is for emacs. I don't think I've
          ever used a control-key combination in vi. vi happens to be an extended
          version of ed with screen editing. If one happens to feel adventurous,
          they may try learning ed and using it as their editor. It was the editor
          used to write the original Unix source code. Which makes ed/red/vi/vim/
          elvis usable in a shell script, without having to learn Lisp or the emacs
          library.

          Herb
        • ed
          ... Very desirable :) Wish I could afford something better right now. I ve a nice plan for when I get some money, 1. rsnapshot master locations to USB device
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 21, 2012
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            On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 02:59:57AM -0000, thad_floryan wrote:
            > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, ed <ed@...> wrote:
            > > [...]
            > > We don't have emacs at work and it isn't installed here (I'm
            > > actually really short of disk space, really short (my main computer
            > > is a laptop and it's struggling)).
            >
            > Disks are so inexpensive nowadays my jaw drops and hits the floor when
            > I open the several emails from Newegg and Frys each day. It was just
            > yesterday that I saw a 2TB Western Digital Caviar Black (WD's premium
            > best) for just a wee bit over US$100 with the [unique] promo codes
            > from Newegg. Unbelievable.

            Very desirable :) Wish I could afford something better right now. I've a
            nice plan for when I get some money,

            1. rsnapshot master locations to USB device
            2. dd backup device | gpg -e > location on second disk
            3. take second disk and stick it in draw at work and leave for thirty
            days then do steps 2-3

            Just right now though personal circumstances have changed somewhat
            making bigger disks etc a thing of the past.

            > > There is a developer at work who uses just emacs, hates vi but
            > > understands it enough to edit files in place on the live servers. He
            > > said there were things that emacs could do that were not possible
            > > in vim that were important for his work, but the only thing he
            > > could come up with at the time was conditional regular expressions,
            > > (basically /gc in vim).
            >
            > Heh. vi (or vim) can be implemented WITHIN emacs, it's that powerful
            > as I'm very aware since I've been using it since 1975. I got my first
            > Emacs tape from a department at the Pentagon (a customer of mine at
            > the time); I later received a tape directly hand-passed from RMS. He
            > actually wore a coat and tie back then and he was cleanly-shaven.

            RMS was meant to be doing a talk in London a few weeks back, I tried to
            get tickets or a seat or something but no luck. Just as well as I hadn't
            booked the day off.

            > > I should learn emacs, but since I cannot use it at work I'd have
            > > trouble making anything I learn stick.
            >
            > Interestingly, HP Labs was a customer of mine back then, too, and
            > everyone there used Emacs including the secretaries. The built-in
            > tutorial takes about 30 minutes to navigate and impart enough info
            > to be able to use emacs effectively.

            It's about a 100% blanket vim shop where I'm at the moment. The one and
            only contractor who used emacs has since left, but I still feel this is
            something I should know.

            > > Plain old vi though, that's horrid in my eyes and a good
            > > understanding of registers to ensure you don't overwrite
            > > that which is in the copy buffer (since solaris vi has only
            > > one level of undo) is essential.
            >
            > Wow, I didn't realize that level of limitation.
            >
            > Don't laugh, but one other editor I still use is ed because way back
            > then (beginning of UNIX) it was the only editor small enough to fit
            > on a boot floppy. I even used ed for the initial config and setup of
            > my SheevaPlugs running Ubuntu 9.04 three years ago -- it's easy to use:
            > [...]
            > root@lanserv1:~# ed foo.c
            > 45
            > 1,$p
            > #include <stdio.h>
            > main(){printf("test\n");}
            > s/test/NEW test/
            > w
            > 49
            > q

            That looks understandable to me. Isn't vi just a multi line version of
            ed?

            --
            Best regards,
            Ed http://www.s5h.net/
          • thad_floryan
            ... It s a derivative per and written by Bill Joy . I have to use a vi cheat sheet
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 21, 2012
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              --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, ed <ed@...> wrote:
              > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 02:59:57AM -0000, thad_floryan wrote:
              > > [...]
              > > Don't laugh, but one other editor I still use is ed because way
              > > back then (beginning of UNIX) it was the only editor small enoug
              > > to fit on a boot floppy. I even used ed for the initial config
              > > and setup of my SheevaPlugs running Ubuntu 9.04 three years ago
              > > -- it's easy to use:
              > > [...]
              > > root@lanserv1:~# ed foo.c
              > > 45
              > > 1,$p
              > > #include <stdio.h>
              > > main(){printf("test\n");}
              > > s/test/NEW test/
              > > w
              > > 49
              > > q
              >
              > That looks understandable to me. Isn't vi just a multi line version
              > of ed?

              It's a derivative per <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi> and written
              by Bill Joy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Joy>.

              I have to use a "vi cheat sheet" the few times I've had (due to
              necessity) to use it:

              <http://www.lagmonster.org/docs/vi.html>

              <http://www.lagmonster.org/docs/vi2.html>

              <http://www.atmos.albany.edu/deas/atmclasses/atm350/vi_cheat_sheet.pdf>

              <http://www.digilife.be/quickreferences/QRC/vi%20Quick%20Reference.pdf>

              <http://www.digilife.be/quickreferences/QRC/VIM%20Quick%20Reference%20Card.pdf>

              <http://www.glump.net%2Fdokuwiki%2F_media%2Fhowto%2Fvi-vim-cheat-sheet-and-tutorial.pdf>

              <http://www.kcomputing.com/kcvi.pdf>

              <http://www.kcomputing.com/vi.html>

              <http://www.catonmat.net/download/bash-vi-editing-mode-cheat-sheet.pdf>

              <http://bullium.com/support/vim.pdf>
            • catbit_1999
              ... This reply is just a test, please ignore
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 23, 2012
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                --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, "thad_floryan" <thad@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, ed <ed@> wrote:
                > > [...]
                > > We don't have emacs at work and it isn't installed here (I'm
                > > actually really short of disk space, really short (my main computer
                > > is a laptop and it's struggling)).
                >

                This reply is just a test, please ignore
              • ed
                ... Those who are having trouble with their post reaching list subscribers, are you posting through the web form or via mail client? -- Best regards, Ed
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 23, 2012
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                  On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:41:48AM -0000, catbit_1999 wrote:
                  > This reply is just a test, please ignore

                  Those who are having trouble with their post reaching list subscribers,
                  are you posting through the web form or via mail client?

                  --
                  Best regards,
                  Ed http://www.s5h.net/
                • Scott
                  ... This particular one was in answer to a private email from Thad, who was having trouble with the web interface--so, I tried to post through the web
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 23, 2012
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                    On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:31:30PM +0100, ed wrote:
                    > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:41:48AM -0000, catbit_1999 wrote:
                    > > This reply is just a test, please ignore
                    >
                    > Those who are having trouble with their post reaching list subscribers,
                    > are you posting through the web form or via mail client?
                    >

                    This particular one was in answer to a private email from Thad, who was
                    having trouble with the web interface--so, I tried to post through the web
                    interface after seeing Thad's email, without stopping to check other
                    mailboxes, wehre I would have realized he'd already solved the problem. :)


                    --
                    Scott Robbins
                    PGP keyID EB3467D6
                    ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                    gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

                    Spike: Oh, listen to Mary Poppins. He's got his crust all stiff
                    and upper with that nancy-boy accent. (everyone looking at him)
                    You Englishmen are always so... (pauses) Bloody hell! (ticks off
                    on his fingers) Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers, bollocks,
                    oh God! I'm English!
                    Giles: Welcome to the nancy tribe.
                  • Thad Floryan
                    This isn t going to be threaded since I m posting via email and not via the web from which the references , etc. would be used for threading. ... It actually
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 24, 2012
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                      This isn't going to be threaded since I'm posting via email and
                      not via the web from which the "references", etc. would be used
                      for threading.


                      --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:31:30PM +0100, ed wrote:
                      > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:41:48AM -0000, catbit_1999 wrote:
                      > > > This reply is just a test, please ignore
                      > >
                      > > Those who are having trouble with their post reaching list
                      > > subscribers, are you posting through the web form or via mail
                      > > client?
                      >
                      > This particular one was in answer to a private email from Thad, who
                      > was having trouble with the web interface--so, I tried to post
                      > through the web interface after seeing Thad's email, without stopping
                      > to check other mailboxes, wehre I would have realized he'd already
                      > solved the problem. :)

                      It actually was a Yahoo problem as I (later) replied to Scott:

                      " It appears, as usual, Yahoo puts untested code in production.
                      "
                      " They're not long for the world -- seems just about all news
                      " and reporters here in Silicon Valley don't expect them to
                      " last another year. They don't even reveal changes (or do any
                      " beta testing) per their lack of keeping these pages updated:
                      "
                      " <http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/>
                      " and
                      " <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/moderatorcentral/messages>
                      "
                      " Total incompetence on Yahoo's part, SNAFU. :-)

                      Yahoo had changed the web interface yesterday, most likely in prep for
                      laying off another n-thousand people as has been recently reported in
                      Silicon Valley newspapers.

                      As I wrote yesterday, I post via the Web interface because articles
                      will "normally" appear in the group within a second or so; if it takes
                      longer than that, the message has been lost within Yahoo's defective
                      email system with 99.999% certainty; here's the posting URL again:

                      <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/post>

                      Hmmm, upon closer inspection, that page (above) hasn't changed, it's
                      the message reading and reply page that was changed yesterday. Any
                      attempt yesterday to reply [before I successfully sent the first test
                      message] was denied stupidly claiming I have viruses on my system --
                      yeah, sure, posting direct from Yahoo's own web pages; idiots.

                      Maybe I should take a drive over to Yahoo today (4 miles away) and
                      see if their infrastructure is still standing. :-)

                      Must be a volcano suddenly erupted in the middle of Yahoo server's
                      center -- I've been unable to post this reply after 10 tries and
                      the YAHU FUBAR SNAFU pops up again with an "Error 999" as you
                      can see here which means they hosed the web interface again today,
                      Thursday, 23-AUG-2012:

                      <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/YAHU_FUBAR_SNAFU_page.png> 29 kB

                      Yahoo is so incompetent they cannot even put this year's "2012" in
                      the copyright notice -- it shows "2006". Idiots.
                    • Godwin Stewart
                      ... Do you mean in general or just in this instance? My mailer *does* maintain In-Reply-To: and References: headers correctly. Looking at the headers of my
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 24, 2012
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                        On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:16:44 -0700, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:

                        > This isn't going to be threaded since I'm posting via email and
                        > not via the web from which the "references", etc. would be used
                        > for threading.

                        Do you mean in general or just in this instance?

                        My mailer *does* maintain In-Reply-To: and References: headers correctly.
                        Looking at the headers of my reply to your other message:

                        In-Reply-To: <50374512.5060503@...>
                        References: <50374512.5060503@...>

                        --
                        Godwin Stewart -- <grs.ygroups@...>
                      • Chris
                        On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:16:44 -0700 ... Interestingly, my mail client (claws-mail) has made a stab at threading it, and managed to do it correctly, even without
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 24, 2012
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                          On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:16:44 -0700
                          Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:

                          >This isn't going to be threaded since I'm posting via email and
                          >not via the web from which the "references", etc. would be used
                          >for threading.

                          Interestingly, my mail client (claws-mail) has made a stab at threading it,
                          and managed to do it correctly, even without the References: header field.

                          Of course, this is probably Incorrect Behaviour, but as Ricardo Signes
                          noted, Email Hates The Living[1]

                          chris

                          [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JENdgiAPD6c
                        • Thad Floryan
                          ... I m copying from the Web (such as the above) and pasting into Thunderbird. Thunderbird doesn t give me the option to manually add In-Reply-To: and
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 24, 2012
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                            --- In linux@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <grs.ygroups@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:16:44 -0700, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > This isn't going to be threaded since I'm posting via email and
                            > > not via the web from which the "references", etc. would be used
                            > > for threading.
                            >
                            > Do you mean in general or just in this instance?
                            >
                            > My mailer *does* maintain In-Reply-To: and References: headers correctly.
                            > Looking at the headers of my reply to your other message:
                            >
                            > In-Reply-To: <50374512.5060503@...>
                            > References: <50374512.5060503@...>


                            I'm copying from the Web (such as the above) and pasting into
                            Thunderbird. Thunderbird doesn't give me the option to manually
                            add "In-Reply-To:" and "References:", I can only select from these
                            6 items: "To:", "Cc:", "Bcc:", "Reply-To:", "Newsgroup:" and
                            "Followup-To:". I could use Emacs but I'd have to read up on how
                            to setup email; I have it working on the Verio server (since 1995)
                            with Emacs for emergencies (and it works fine) but I really prefer
                            a dedicated client such as Tbird for email.

                            So I'll reduce my linux posting level until YahPoo (I like that!) fixes
                            this new mess. At least email sort-of works but I really don't like
                            using email for groups, at least not to receive messages since so many
                            people don't trim properly (not a problem so much in the linux group
                            but a REAL problem in almost all my other groups).
                          • Thad Floryan
                            ... Even more interesting, I just checked the Yahoo web page. As I wrote previously, reading functions fine, still cannot post or reply. And Yahoo, too,
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 24, 2012
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                              > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:16:44 -0700
                              > Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >This isn't going to be threaded since I'm posting via email and
                              > >not via the web from which the "references", etc. would be used
                              > >for threading.
                              >
                              > Interestingly, my mail client (claws-mail) has made a stab at threading it,
                              > and managed to do it correctly, even without the References: header field.
                              >
                              > Of course, this is probably Incorrect Behaviour, but as Ricardo Signes
                              > noted, Email Hates The Living[1]
                              >
                              > chris
                              >
                              > [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JENdgiAPD6c

                              Even more interesting, I just checked the Yahoo web page. As I wrote
                              previously, reading functions fine, still cannot post or reply. And
                              Yahoo, too, threaded the messages I sent via email (without the
                              references, etc.) correctly AFAICT.

                              So, it's not the end of the world, just inconvenient for me. :-)
                            • ed
                              ... Depends how strict you want the mailer to be as to correct threading. Threading on subject line alone is done by mutt too, sometimes annoyingly, sometimes
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 25, 2012
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                                On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:22:25AM +0100, Chris wrote:
                                > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:16:44 -0700
                                > Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >This isn't going to be threaded since I'm posting via email and
                                > >not via the web from which the "references", etc. would be used
                                > >for threading.
                                >
                                > Interestingly, my mail client (claws-mail) has made a stab at threading it,
                                > and managed to do it correctly, even without the References: header field.

                                Depends how strict you want the mailer to be as to correct threading.

                                Threading on subject line alone is done by mutt too, sometimes
                                annoyingly, sometimes its helpful

                                > Of course, this is probably Incorrect Behaviour, but as Ricardo Signes
                                > noted, Email Hates The Living[1]
                                > [...]
                                > [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JENdgiAPD6c

                                It's just a free text message medium open to abuse, once people get to
                                grips with that life becomes simple.

                                Lots of good stuff in that youtube link that I didn't appreciate. Partly
                                the problem with email is that so many people hand roll their own mail
                                systems, IMO.

                                --
                                Best regards,
                                Ed http://www.s5h.net/
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