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RE: [linux] Documentation for Newbies

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  • mike
    It s all a part of learning... I can t begin to tell you how I learned! mike ... From: John [mailto:spyder@spydermania.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 3:18 PM
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
      It's all a part of learning... I can't begin to tell you how I learned!

      mike

      -----Original Message-----
      From: John [mailto:spyder@...]
      Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 3:18 PM
      To: linux@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [linux] Documentation for Newbies


      Hello All,

      I am on a list where a guy who knows very little about linux (obvious
      because he does not know how to become root) wants to know how to become
      root on his managed server. I personally am reluctant to tell this guy
      how to become root, even though he has access he is obviously very
      unknowledgable and runs windows on his computer and never used linux
      personally to the best of my knowledge.

      What I want to know is where is there documentation online I can refer
      this person to that will inform them the dangers of root access?

      I do not want to scare him completly away from this, but I do not want to
      send him in as root with no knowledge at all. I want him to do a little
      reading before hand so he won't mess his server up by doing certain things
      like 'rm -rf /*' <BG>

      Thanks!

      -John-



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    • John
      Hello All, I am on a list where a guy who knows very little about linux (obvious because he does not know how to become root) wants to know how to become root
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
        Hello All,

        I am on a list where a guy who knows very little about linux (obvious
        because he does not know how to become root) wants to know how to become
        root on his managed server. I personally am reluctant to tell this guy
        how to become root, even though he has access he is obviously very
        unknowledgable and runs windows on his computer and never used linux
        personally to the best of my knowledge.

        What I want to know is where is there documentation online I can refer
        this person to that will inform them the dangers of root access?

        I do not want to scare him completly away from this, but I do not want to
        send him in as root with no knowledge at all. I want him to do a little
        reading before hand so he won't mess his server up by doing certain things
        like 'rm -rf /*' <BG>

        Thanks!

        -John-
      • steve@blacktrionix.com
        Sounds like your the guy Steve ... From: John To: Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:17 PM Subject: [linux]
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
          Sounds like your "the guy"


          Steve


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John" <spyder@...>
          To: <linux@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:17 PM
          Subject: [linux] Documentation for Newbies


          > Hello All,
          >
          > I am on a list where a guy who knows very little about linux (obvious
          > because he does not know how to become root) wants to know how to become
          > root on his managed server. I personally am reluctant to tell this guy
          > how to become root, even though he has access he is obviously very
          > unknowledgable and runs windows on his computer and never used linux
          > personally to the best of my knowledge.
          >
          > What I want to know is where is there documentation online I can refer
          > this person to that will inform them the dangers of root access?
          >
          > I do not want to scare him completly away from this, but I do not want to
          > send him in as root with no knowledge at all. I want him to do a little
          > reading before hand so he won't mess his server up by doing certain things
          > like 'rm -rf /*' <BG>
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
          > -John-
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe, email linux-unsubscribe@egroups.com, or
          > visit www.egroups.com.
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • John
          ... Well I don t know what makes you say that but I have been using Linux for a good two years now (give or take a month) and I know how to become root and can
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
            On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, steve@... wrote:

            > Sounds like your "the guy"

            Well I don't know what makes you say that but I have been using Linux for
            a good two years now (give or take a month) and I know how to become root
            and can configure a great deal of software in Linux. I got a guy I do not
            know who is on a mailing list I subscribe too and he has been asking a lot
            of off the wall questions, which have left me to believe he knows jack
            about Linux and his server. Chances are he is one of those who figured,
            hey, spend a few bucks and I can become rich running a web hosting company
            and it is not that simple. He leases the server from a company and the
            server was handed to him pre-configured and online, so he did not have to
            do that part. It is managed to a certain extent, but not for what he wants
            to do, unless he pays big bucks to have them install the software for him.

            I simply do not know of all the documentation sites out there and was
            wondering if such a web site existed that would give this guy fair warning
            since he does not own the server and hopefully save him some time and
            money.

            Call me defensive if you want but I did not ask if it sounded like I was a
            moron who did not know how to run su - to become root, I asked for online
            references that I can point this guy too, if you don't know, or there is
            no such web page to educate people on the powers of root, then that is all
            I need to know. If this guy screws his server up by doing something
            stupid it will cost him big bucks and will definitely make his customers
            unhappy.

            If anyone has any links I can pass along, I would appreciate it! If
            anyone else thinks I am "the guy" as Steve does, well, hey, that is your
            prerogative! I certainly am not going to waste any more time on the issue.

            >
            > Steve
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "John" <spyder@...>
            > To: <linux@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:17 PM
            > Subject: [linux] Documentation for Newbies
            >
            >
            > > Hello All,
            > >
            > > I am on a list where a guy who knows very little about linux (obvious
            > > because he does not know how to become root) wants to know how to become
            > > root on his managed server. I personally am reluctant to tell this guy
            > > how to become root, even though he has access he is obviously very
            > > unknowledgable and runs windows on his computer and never used linux
            > > personally to the best of my knowledge.
            > >
            > > What I want to know is where is there documentation online I can refer
            > > this person to that will inform them the dangers of root access?
            > >
            > > I do not want to scare him completly away from this, but I do not want to
            > > send him in as root with no knowledge at all. I want him to do a little
            > > reading before hand so he won't mess his server up by doing certain things
            > > like 'rm -rf /*' <BG>
            > >
            > > Thanks!
            > >
            > > -John-
          • John
            ... I agree, however I was hoping to save him some big bucks and also save the company who leased the server to him some time. I can tell you how I learned
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
              On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, mike wrote:

              > It's all a part of learning... I can't begin to tell you how I learned!

              I agree, however I was hoping to save him some big bucks and also save the
              company who leased the server to him some time. I can tell you how I
              learned root can do anything, but it would take a long time to explain.
              All I can say is within the first month of using Linux I probably rebuilt
              my system 50 times or so. That may be an exaggeration, but I do know I
              installed Linux 5 times in one day because I kept doing stupid things <g>
              I even had to rebuild windows a couple of times because I screwed that up
              from Linux, as root :)

              Will be rebuilding more than likely when my new hard drive gets here
              Wednesday, but that is a matter of choice and I may decide to just use
              Toms Reboot Disk to copy everything over assuming my current drive still
              functions. I am waiting on a warranty replacement from Western Digital.

              -John-
            • Scott
              on 22:36 2001/07/30 -0400, John wrote ... Hrmm--didn t sound sarcastic to me--that is, a put down of you, but anyway, your post brings up a good point. I had
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                on 22:36 2001/07/30 -0400, John wrote
                >On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, steve@... wrote:
                >
                > > Sounds like your "the guy"
                >
                >Well I don't know what makes you say that but I have been using Linux for
                >a good two years now (give or take a month) and I know how to become root
                >and can configure a great deal of software in Linux.


                Hrmm--didn't sound sarcastic to me--that is, a put down of you, but anyway,
                your post brings up a good point.
                I had an article on the web about getting telnet working in RH7.1 One of
                my first mentors felt that it shouldn't be on the web--his logic was that
                it was for beginners, and with beginners especially, they shouldn't use
                telnet. What convinced me that he was right was on my own home network
                which is reasonably--though not perfectly--secure, I only use ssh.

                Anyway, it's actually easier to set up ssh in RH7.1 than telnet, as you
                don't have to mess with xinetd.

                So, back to your question--it comes down to do you say, here's how you do
                it, and here is why you shouldn't, or do you say, I could tell you how to
                do it, but it has such serious security implications that I don't feel
                right doing so. I don't have the answer for you. Usually, I take the
                coward's way out and let someone else on a mailing list handle it. :
                ) Especially, if the person is asking questions indicating that they're
                very new to the O/S, and don't realize things.

                I will say this--I put up a Linux page a couple of years ago---I went back
                to it recently and heavily edited it, making a much stronger point about
                security. I think it's more important than it used to be--not that it was
                never important, but simply that the numbers of script kiddies increase daily.

                I realize this isn't an answer, but just to let you know, that you're not
                the only one who wonders about that. :)
                Scott
              • skylinux
                the same type of question showing up in one week - mhh that s funny. Like the guy who got a router, a server, IP and needs to know everything about virtual
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                  the same type of question showing up in one week - mhh that's funny. Like
                  the guy who got a router, a server, IP and needs to know everything about
                  virtual hosting, DNS, FTP, BASH, SSH - but beeing a newbie he needs
                  "Dummy" guides. You're talking about ADVANCED NETWORKING and server setup,
                  there is just NOWAY that somebody can run a hosting company on any OS
                  without knowing (using) this OS for at least a couple of years. And
                  getting a degree in Networking would help to (CCNA).

                  Anyway, I wish you good luck and here is a list of my own bookmarks where
                  u\you can find a lot of stuff about Linux.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/files/linux-bookmarks.html

                  And like I said one week ago (to the other guy)
                  -apache.org (very good documentation for the apache webserver)
                  -linux.com (some of the articels might help, but my experienc eis that 70%
                  is not worth reading)
                  -www.linuxdocu.org

                  Just check the bookmarks

                  Skylinux
                • John
                  ... Well I may have taken the comment the wrong way and took my frusterations out, and if it was not intended that way I do apologize but in all honesty it
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                    On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, Scott wrote:

                    > on 22:36 2001/07/30 -0400, John wrote
                    > >On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, steve@... wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Sounds like your "the guy"
                    > >
                    > >Well I don't know what makes you say that but I have been using Linux for
                    > >a good two years now (give or take a month) and I know how to become root
                    > >and can configure a great deal of software in Linux.
                    >
                    >
                    > Hrmm--didn't sound sarcastic to me--that is, a put down of you, but anyway,
                    > your post brings up a good point.

                    Well I may have taken the comment the wrong way and took my frusterations
                    out, and if it was not intended that way I do apologize but in all honesty
                    it irritated the heck out of me :)

                    > I had an article on the web about getting telnet working in RH7.1 One of
                    > my first mentors felt that it shouldn't be on the web--his logic was that
                    > it was for beginners, and with beginners especially, they shouldn't use
                    > telnet. What convinced me that he was right was on my own home network
                    > which is reasonably--though not perfectly--secure, I only use ssh.

                    Oh and I agree with the logic, telnet is becomming more and more outdated
                    much like rlogin which is very insecure. With SSH, not only can you
                    replace telnet and rlogin by offering secure connections and
                    authenticathion, you can offer a secure ftp connection as well :)

                    I prefer SSH myself, and use it on my local box/network.

                    > So, back to your question--it comes down to do you say, here's how you do
                    > it, and here is why you shouldn't, or do you say, I could tell you how to
                    > do it, but it has such serious security implications that I don't feel
                    > right doing so. I don't have the answer for you. Usually, I take the
                    > coward's way out and let someone else on a mailing list handle it. :
                    > ) Especially, if the person is asking questions indicating that they're
                    > very new to the O/S, and don't realize things.

                    Well this is what I usually do as well, however I answered a question
                    which appeared normal, then he comes back with "well, how do I become
                    root, I did get permission denied as you said". Along with other questions
                    that left me feeling I should not tell him how to become root, so now I
                    get to tell him that I feel uncomfortable telling him this since becoming
                    root is very commonly known, even to alot of beginners. Sad thing is the
                    answer to his question is in the FAQ online provided by the company who
                    leases the server to him.

                    > I realize this isn't an answer, but just to let you know, that you're not
                    > the only one who wonders about that. :)
                    > Scott

                    Well my problem is I kind of dug myself in a hole trying to help him out
                    then he comes back with a lot of questions that made me uncomfortable
                    telling him how to do everything he asked. I did not want to discourage
                    him with a response that would leave him feeling stupid, nor do I want to
                    give him too much information. It's like this, you let a little kid cross
                    the street supervised, next thing you know he is crossing the street
                    without supervision and maybe even ends up getting hit by a car.

                    Thanks for your comments.

                    -John-
                  • John
                    ... Well, that is probably my fault, I have not ben following this mailing list very closly the last couple weeks... Other things on my mind or to do with my
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                      On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, skylinux wrote:

                      > the same type of question showing up in one week - mhh that's funny. Like
                      > the guy who got a router, a server, IP and needs to know everything about
                      > virtual hosting, DNS, FTP, BASH, SSH - but beeing a newbie he needs
                      > "Dummy" guides. You're talking about ADVANCED NETWORKING and server setup,
                      > there is just NOWAY that somebody can run a hosting company on any OS
                      > without knowing (using) this OS for at least a couple of years. And
                      > getting a degree in Networking would help to (CCNA).

                      Well, that is probably my fault, I have not ben following this mailing
                      list very closly the last couple weeks... Other things on my mind or to
                      do with my time :)

                      I agree, it is not possible to get by on Dummy Guides and I definately
                      feel if you plan to run a hosting company you should at least run linux on
                      your own box and learn from there, if I were to do something I did not
                      know, I would want to mess up my box rather than a server, but that is
                      just me. Personaly if people insist on running servers, eg. hosting
                      companies, and do not know much about the OS, they should spend the
                      money to hire someone who does know.

                      I did not quite realize this thread was going to turn into what it is, I
                      had thought it was a simple question. Then again, what question is simple.
                      It all depends on how you look at it.

                      > Anyway, I wish you good luck and here is a list of my own bookmarks where
                      > u\you can find a lot of stuff about Linux.
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/files/linux-bookmarks.html

                      Thanks for the link, I will pass it along as I am about to goto bed for
                      work in the morning. I guess if nothing else comes out of this thread, I
                      learned to just tell people ask somewhere else for help rather than asking
                      for them since I do/did not have the proper links to provide them a proper
                      response.

                      -John-
                    • Scott
                      ... I ll tell ya---having a CCNA, I don t even think that that is that much of a help. It s fairly basic. If you re getting it on the way to a degree in
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                        > You're talking about ADVANCED NETWORKING and server setup,
                        >there is just NOWAY that somebody can run a hosting company on any OS
                        >without knowing (using) this OS for at least a couple of years. And
                        >getting a degree in Networking would help to (CCNA).


                        I'll tell ya---having a CCNA, I don't even think that that is that much of
                        a help. It's fairly basic. If you're getting it on the way to a degree in
                        computer science, which is what I think you're doing, right?---then, it
                        might have more value--or, if you go through the Cisco Networking
                        Academy--however, this is hearsay, I don't know from experience, but
                        supposedly, going through the whole networking academy thing gives you a
                        lot of hands on knowledge. You can pass the CCNA without hands on
                        experience, though of course, it helps quite a bit, as the command line
                        becomes more familiar. (Some of it similar to Linux, some of it
                        different.) Still, I'd have to say that much of the CCNA curriculum is
                        similar to MS's now retired Network Essentials and TCP/IP.

                        Unlike the MCSE, this can't be blamed on braindumps. It's simply that
                        the CCNA requirements aren't that stringent.

                        One book that I will recommend for those with a GOOD MS background is Mark
                        Minasi's book--it's written for an NT or 2k Admin who wants to get involved
                        with Linux. Trouble with the Dummies books--while not necessarily for
                        dummies, they are usually written for the real beginner.

                        Also, I think you mistyped below--that should be www.linuxdoc.org,
                        rigth?--err right?

                        Scott who never mistypres--err mistuyp--err mistypes. :)

                        (I'm leaving in your links below--but note above about linuxdoc.org





                        >Anyway, I wish you good luck and here is a list of my own bookmarks where
                        >u\you can find a lot of stuff about Linux.
                        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/files/linux-bookmarks.html
                        >
                        >And like I said one week ago (to the other guy)
                        >-apache.org (very good documentation for the apache webserver)
                        >-linux.com (some of the articels might help, but my experienc eis that 70%
                        >is not worth reading)
                        >-www.linuxdocu.org
                        >
                        >Just check the bookmarks
                        >
                        >Skylinux
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >To unsubscribe, email linux-unsubscribe@egroups.com, or
                        >visit www.egroups.com.
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • skylinux
                        well I think that CCNA is of a lot of help because of the understanding on how the hole networking thing works and if it gets bigger you can configure the
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                          well I think that CCNA is of a lot of help because of the understanding
                          on how the hole networking thing works and if it gets bigger you can configure
                          the router to split the traffic to 2 T1 lines or whatever conenction he's
                          using. You're right that going higher in Cisco will help more - well more
                          knowledge is always better.

                          ohh :) it's linuxdoc.org

                          Skylinux
                        • Scott
                          on 23:51 2001/07/30 -0400, skylinux wrote ... I do think that the CCNP and of course, CCIE definitely go a lot deeper. After the CCNA, I was going for the
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                            on 23:51 2001/07/30 -0400, skylinux wrote
                            >well I think that CCNA is of a lot of help because of the understanding
                            >on how the hole networking thing works and if it gets bigger you can configure
                            >the router to split the traffic to 2 T1 lines or whatever conenction he's
                            >using. You're right that going higher in Cisco will help more - well more
                            >knowledge is always better.


                            I do think that the CCNP and of course, CCIE definitely go a lot
                            deeper. After the CCNA, I was going for the CCDA and got sidetracked for
                            the last few months going back to playing with Linux. If it weren't for
                            the case studies, which make the CCDA test difficult, I think that I'd be
                            ready for it already. Yet, even the case studies are more about knowing the
                            Cisco product line--it teaches you some basic stuff, but I think that Cisco
                            considers their "Associate" certs very basic.
                            On the other hand, from what you and John describe, you're right--it seems
                            as if the person needs some very basic networking knowledge.


                            You know, it's hard to say, after you reach a certain level--I still
                            consider myself a novice, but when I began Cisco study, I already had the
                            MCSE, was working as junior Network Admin and had played with Linux for
                            awhile. I just didn't find very much new there, save for specific router
                            commands. Did you learn about splitting T's from the CCNA study, or did
                            you already know it? I think, when you take the test, you'll come out
                            saying, That was it???? (though they will sometimes nail you with strange
                            phrasing. I also suspect, judging from various Cisco lists, that I got an
                            easy test.)
                            If someone is fresh to networking you're probably right. However, until you
                            actually set up the T's, it's more theory. What irritated me was when I
                            realized that I didn't learn, after getting the CCNA, how to set up a
                            router as DHCP relay agent. (Easy enough to find on Cisco's website, but
                            still, it was something that I thought should have been taught for the CCNA).


                            >ohh :) it's linuxdoc.org


                            I figured you mistyped it on purpose, because you said 70 percent of it
                            wasn't valuable. :) Hope I didn't give it away. :)

                            Scott, who like John, has to go to sleep Ah, you young'uns who can stay up
                            all night....
                          • Gautam Sarnaik
                            Hi Isn t documentation accessible most of the times in form of tutorials ... man pages ... and lots of articles on the net? All you have to do is go to
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 1, 2001
                              Hi
                              Isn't documentation accessible most of the times in form of
                              tutorials ... man pages ... and lots of articles on the net? All you
                              have to do is go to www.google.com or some other search engine and
                              give some search string like "Linux Documentation" and stuff ...
                              That itself gives thousands of pages ...
                              Next go in with a fine comb ...


                              cheers
                              Gautam

                              --- In linux@y..., Scott <scottro@b...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > You're talking about ADVANCED NETWORKING and server setup,
                              > >there is just NOWAY that somebody can run a hosting company on any
                              OS
                              > >without knowing (using) this OS for at least a couple of years. And
                              > >getting a degree in Networking would help to (CCNA).
                              >
                              >
                              > I'll tell ya---having a CCNA, I don't even think that that is that
                              much of
                              > a help. It's fairly basic. If you're getting it on the way to a
                              degree in
                              > computer science, which is what I think you're doing, right?---
                              then, it
                              > might have more value--or, if you go through the Cisco Networking
                              > Academy--however, this is hearsay, I don't know from experience,
                              but
                              > supposedly, going through the whole networking academy thing gives
                              you a
                              > lot of hands on knowledge. You can pass the CCNA without hands on
                              > experience, though of course, it helps quite a bit, as the command
                              line
                              > becomes more familiar. (Some of it similar to Linux, some of it
                              > different.) Still, I'd have to say that much of the CCNA
                              curriculum is
                              > similar to MS's now retired Network Essentials and TCP/IP.
                              >
                              > Unlike the MCSE, this can't be blamed on braindumps. It's simply
                              that
                              > the CCNA requirements aren't that stringent.
                              >
                              > One book that I will recommend for those with a GOOD MS background
                              is Mark
                              > Minasi's book--it's written for an NT or 2k Admin who wants to get
                              involved
                              > with Linux. Trouble with the Dummies books--while not necessarily
                              for
                              > dummies, they are usually written for the real beginner.
                              >
                              > Also, I think you mistyped below--that should be www.linuxdoc.org,
                              > rigth?--err right?
                              >
                              > Scott who never mistypres--err mistuyp--err mistypes. :)
                              >
                              > (I'm leaving in your links below--but note above about linuxdoc.org
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >Anyway, I wish you good luck and here is a list of my own
                              bookmarks where
                              > >u\you can find a lot of stuff about Linux.
                              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux/files/linux-bookmarks.html
                              > >
                              > >And like I said one week ago (to the other guy)
                              > >-apache.org (very good documentation for the apache webserver)
                              > >-linux.com (some of the articels might help, but my experienc eis
                              that 70%
                              > >is not worth reading)
                              > >-www.linuxdocu.org
                              > >
                              > >Just check the bookmarks
                              > >
                              > >Skylinux
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >To unsubscribe, email linux-unsubscribe@egroups.com, or
                              > >visit www.egroups.com.
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • John
                              ... Well in general yes, but I was looking for specific docs that would give great details of what *could* be done with root and why it is not a good idea to
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 1, 2001
                                On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Gautam Sarnaik wrote:

                                > Hi
                                > Isn't documentation accessible most of the times in form of
                                > tutorials ... man pages ... and lots of articles on the net? All you
                                > have to do is go to www.google.com or some other search engine and
                                > give some search string like "Linux Documentation" and stuff ...
                                > That itself gives thousands of pages ...
                                > Next go in with a fine comb ...

                                Well in general yes, but I was looking for specific docs that would give
                                great details of what *could* be done with root and why it is not a good
                                idea to "test" things as root. Something oriented toward newbies for the
                                sake of the server.

                                This issue is solved. I posted back to the guy who wanted to know how to
                                become root and explained some of the powers root possesses and for that
                                reason I did not want to give instructions for becoming root as I want
                                no part of him possibly messing up his server. This is a broken down
                                version of course, but you get the point.

                                I continued to tell him the information he seeks is easily found online,
                                but he needs to do some reading and sent him a few links to newbie
                                oriented web sites.

                                He did reply thanking me and well it turns out he doesn't even have root
                                access to his server to begin with. He somehow found his way to the list
                                and is simply a customer of a web hosting company.

                                This was interesting to me as I wondered why he wanted to become root.
                                The reasons were for honest reasons I believe, however I am glad I did not
                                come out and tell him to run 'su -'. While he would still need to know
                                the root password, I just prefer him not even try. After all, there was a
                                web hosting company who at one time forgot to even set a root password so
                                su - just logged people in as root. This is a major lack of security IMO
                                but if it happened once, who's to say it did not happen again somewhere
                                else. I left out the name of this web hosting company intentionally and I
                                do know which one it was. This information was passed on another mailing
                                I subscribe to and the guy who stated this fact is a customer of this host
                                and was able to su! What I don't understand is why he stayed with that
                                host <g>.

                                Anyway, thanks to those who replied however this issue is now solved.

                                -John-
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