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Re: Quick Ubuntu 5.10 / Latitude C600 rundown...

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  • Gareth
    misc. points... - an Ubuntu wiki post recommends changing ati to r128 in /etc/X11/xorg.conf (a console does seem snappier as a result). - Printer install
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 20, 2005
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      misc. points...

      - an Ubuntu wiki post recommends changing "ati" to "r128" in
      '/etc/X11/xorg.conf' (a console does seem snappier as a result).

      - Printer install even easier than Hoary kUbuntu!!
    • Gareth
      ... (cont.) - a PS2 mouse seems to work better than USB (lot better)
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 20, 2005
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        --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "Gareth" <gsowww@y...> wrote:
        >
        > misc. points...
        >

        (cont.)

        - a PS2 mouse seems to work better than USB (lot better)
      • Alexandre Tessier
        ... I would add: At the very left edge is the download edition of mandriva (100% open source), while the power pack edition of mandriva is near the right edge
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 20, 2005
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          Gareth wrote:
          > If Linux distributions can be placed on a scale with Maximum Open
          > Source (MOS) dists at the left hand side and 'non-commercial use only'
          > dists at the right had side (i.e. propietory binaries); Xandros would
          > be at the very right edge, while Suse would fall somewhere in the
          > middle, kUbuntu and Red Hat a bit more towards the left, but at the
          > very left edge surely would be Ubuntu with a default GNOME install - a
          > more or less 100% open source operating system.

          I would add:
          At the very left edge is the download edition of mandriva (100% open
          source), while the power pack edition of mandriva is near the right edge
          (download edition + ati/nvidia drivers, acroread...)

          Alex.
        • Alexander Toresson
          ... And Debian is another fully open source distro. Sure, there are special packages that d/l non-free stuff, like msttcorefonts and sun s jvm, though that
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 20, 2005
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            On 10/20/05, Alexandre Tessier <Alexandre.Tessier@...-orleans.fr> wrote:
            > Gareth wrote:
            > > If Linux distributions can be placed on a scale with Maximum Open
            > > Source (MOS) dists at the left hand side and 'non-commercial use only'
            > > dists at the right had side (i.e. propietory binaries); Xandros would
            > > be at the very right edge, while Suse would fall somewhere in the
            > > middle, kUbuntu and Red Hat a bit more towards the left, but at the
            > > very left edge surely would be Ubuntu with a default GNOME install - a
            > > more or less 100% open source operating system.
            >
            > I would add:
            > At the very left edge is the download edition of mandriva (100% open
            > source), while the power pack edition of mandriva is near the right edge
            > (download edition + ati/nvidia drivers, acroread...)
            >
            > Alex.
            >

            And Debian is another fully open source distro. Sure, there are
            special packages that d/l non-free stuff, like msttcorefonts and
            sun's jvm, though that stuff ain't included in debian; the postinst
            script just downloads the non-free stuff, to ease installation.

            Regards, Alexander Toresson
          • Alexander Toresson
            ... An usb mouse will work as good as a ps/2 mouse if set up correctly, though I have no idea how to set it up on ubuntu. Of course you could hack your
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 20, 2005
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              On 10/20/05, Gareth <gsowww@...> wrote:
              > --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "Gareth" <gsowww@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > misc. points...
              > >
              >
              > (cont.)
              >
              > - a PS2 mouse seems to work better than USB (lot better)
              >

              An usb mouse will work as good as a ps/2 mouse if set up correctly,
              though I have no idea how to set it up on ubuntu. Of course you could
              hack your xorg.conf manually, but that is a Bad Thing (tm) considering
              that most distros provide tools to set it up.

              Regards, Alexander Toresson
            • Gareth
              ... wrote: ... edge ... I ve been assuming that KDE QT libs are closed source - is that correct? Picture a graph with degree open
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, Alexandre Tessier
                <Alexandre.Tessier@l...> wrote:
                ....
                > I would add:
                > At the very left edge is the download edition of mandriva (100% open
                > source), while the power pack edition of mandriva is near the right
                edge
                > (download edition + ati/nvidia drivers, acroread...)

                I've been assuming that KDE QT libs are closed source - is that correct?

                Picture a graph with degree open source on the X axis starting 100%
                running through to for non-commercial use only products at the right
                hand side - the Y axis though holds an index for how user friendly the
                distribution is. The graph at the moment shows a quite pronounced
                slope upwards to the right, largely on account of how easy it is to
                use KDE desktops - a lot of work having gone into KDE.
              • Gareth
                ... wrote: ... Debian basically defines open source.
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                  --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Toresson
                  <alexander.toresson@g...> wrote:
                  ....
                  > And Debian is another fully open source distro. Sure, there are

                  Debian basically defines open source.
                • Gareth
                  ... wrote: ... I have a theory that the guys and gals that create Debian etc. are all using high power servers to do it, hence when
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                    --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Toresson
                    <alexander.toresson@g...> wrote:
                    ....
                    > An usb mouse will work as good as a ps/2 mouse if set up correctly,
                    > though I have no idea how to set it up on ubuntu.

                    I have a theory that the guys and gals that create Debian etc. are all
                    using high power servers to do it, hence when Joe Soap sets things up
                    on something less than 1 GHz we notice it!
                  • Gareth
                    ... (cont.) - modem applet too buggy, better using the system admin. networking tool
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                      --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "Gareth" <gsowww@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > misc. points...

                      (cont.)

                      - modem applet too buggy, better using the system admin. networking tool
                    • James Frye
                      ... This of course is a matter of opinion. I judge such things by how easy it is to remove/disable them. I wondered if it has ever occurred to the developers
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                        On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Gareth wrote:

                        > ...largely on account of how easy it is to
                        > use KDE desktops - a lot of work having gone into KDE.

                        This of course is a matter of opinion. I judge such things by how easy it
                        is to remove/disable them.

                        I wondered if it has ever occurred to the developers of these "desktops"
                        that if I wanted something with a Windoze look & feel, I could save myself
                        considerable time & trouble by just buying Windoze :-)

                        James
                      • dgholmes59
                        ... easy it ... these desktops ... myself ... Absolutely the developers have thought about the look and feel and that if linux is ever going to compete with
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                          > This of course is a matter of opinion. I judge such things by how
                          easy it
                          > is to remove/disable them.
                          >
                          > I wondered if it has ever occurred to the developers of
                          these "desktops"
                          > that if I wanted something with a Windoze look & feel, I could save
                          myself
                          > considerable time & trouble by just buying Windoze :-)
                          >
                          > James
                          >

                          Absolutely the developers have thought about the look and feel and
                          that if linux is ever going to compete with Windows, it will have to
                          look and feel similar. That is why so much effort is going into
                          Gnome and KDE. If linux doesn't progress to a functional and easy to
                          use gui, it will be destined only for the hobbiest that likes
                          tinkering with there computers and servers.

                          I personally am looking forward to that day. When it is very easy to
                          use and requires very little command line and system administration.
                          If it does finally progress to this point, the average computer user
                          may start using linux. And then there will be tons of software
                          available at any store.

                          I wish it were not true, but Windows 2000 professional still works
                          better on my old Dell Latitude 400 mhz, 256 mb memory laptop than
                          linux. The laptop is definitely runs faster with Windows. My
                          hardware definitely sets up easier and the machine requires much less
                          attention from me.

                          Yep, they are thinking about it. Because they know the closer they
                          get to Windows, the more people will use it. Just like Microsoft,
                          the closer they got to the Macintosh gui, the more it $$SOLD$$.

                          My 2 cents.
                        • Eric S. Johansson
                          ... indeed. It s all about the user interface. For 99.9% of the world, a computer is a tool and if it gets in the way, it will be replaced with something
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                            dgholmes59 wrote:
                            > Absolutely the developers have thought about the look and feel and
                            > that if linux is ever going to compete with Windows, it will have to
                            > look and feel similar. That is why so much effort is going into
                            > Gnome and KDE. If linux doesn't progress to a functional and easy to
                            > use gui, it will be destined only for the hobbiest that likes
                            > tinkering with there computers and servers.

                            indeed. It's all about the user interface. For 99.9% of the world, a
                            computer is a tool and if it gets in the way, it will be replaced with
                            something easier.

                            in addition to the user interface, they need to pay attention to
                            presentation. I use keyword advertising on Yahoo for my consulting
                            practice and the web interface is quite usable with Firefox under
                            Windows. It's almost unreadable with Firefox under Linux. There should
                            not be a difference in rendering but there is one.

                            > I personally am looking forward to that day. When it is very easy to
                            > use and requires very little command line and system administration.
                            > If it does finally progress to this point, the average computer user
                            > may start using linux. And then there will be tons of software
                            > available at any store.
                            >
                            > I wish it were not true, but Windows 2000 professional still works
                            > better on my old Dell Latitude 400 mhz, 256 mb memory laptop than
                            > linux. The laptop is definitely runs faster with Windows. My
                            > hardware definitely sets up easier and the machine requires much less
                            > attention from me.

                            my experience has been similar and it's almost getting to the point
                            where I'm thinking seriously about using Windows for servers at least in
                            the small office arena. Linux is just too much work when the customer
                            only has a $500 or $600 labor budget. You have a larger pool of cheap
                            (25-50 dollars per hour) talent capable of getting the job done if you
                            stick with Windows.

                            It boils down to you do the right thing using Linux but you make money
                            using Windows. I know I could probably double or triple my income if I
                            followed my advice but rather do the right thing for people wanting to
                            do things right. in other words, linux consultant needs sane customers.

                            > My 2 cents.

                            and worth every penny.. ;-)
                          • James Frye
                            ... But why should Linux compete with Windows? Windows apparently suits the average user well enough, for the (if you ll excuse my prejudice) trivial
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 21, 2005
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                              On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, dgholmes59 wrote:

                              > Absolutely the developers have thought about the look and feel and
                              > that if linux is ever going to compete with Windows...

                              But why should Linux compete with Windows? Windows apparently suits the
                              average user well enough, for the (if you'll excuse my prejudice) trivial
                              applications they tend to run. Why do we need another clone of it? Leave
                              Linux for the rest of us.

                              > If linux doesn't progress to a functional and easy to use gui
                              > it will be destined only for the hobbiest that likes
                              > tinkering with there computers and servers.

                              Or for people like me: I use my laptop to develop simulation software that
                              runs, among other places, on some of world's most powerful supercomputers.
                              Which, BTW, run Linux too.

                              > If it does finally progress to this point, the average computer user
                              > may start using linux. And then there will be tons of software
                              > available at any store.

                              But there is far more useful (to me, at least) software available for
                              Linux than for Windows. As you (or someone) said, the computer is a tool.
                              Its value is in the work it lets me do. I can do my work with Linux. If
                              I had to try to do it with Windows tools (or Linux tools locked in to a
                              Windoze look & feel), it'd take me far longer, if I could do it at all.

                              James
                            • Gareth
                              ... myself ... I posted a post somewhere years ago along the lines that open source is not Windows and shouldn t attempt to sell itself as a Windows - it will
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, James Frye <frye@c...> wrote:
                                ....
                                > I wondered if it has ever occurred to the developers of these "desktops"
                                > that if I wanted something with a Windoze look & feel, I could save
                                myself
                                > considerable time & trouble by just buying Windoze :-)
                                >

                                I posted a post somewhere years ago along the lines that open source
                                is not Windows and shouldn't attempt to sell itself as a Windows - it
                                will be its downfall if it does.

                                Whereas a Windows application works out of the box, the currency of an
                                open source application includes as well an interface to encourage
                                users to contribute to developing the application - how usable this
                                interface to the code and potential developers is could be just as
                                decisive as that of the GUI.

                                Open source applications rather than polished products are often works
                                in progress, meeting community needs viz complete specifications etc.
                                etc. Users made aware of this through the way the software is
                                presented then have a realistic base on which to plan their own way
                                forward. This is omething that is lost if a user sets up a PC with
                                open source and simply finds it does not work. Whereas if the project
                                is presented as open source and not a product, then they have a
                                rational for the state of things and can plan more effectively for
                                themselves with that rational, which may well include developing (or
                                sponsoring development) themselves.

                                If Linux users were sold an 'open source' product, with the software
                                in its historical context - an accurate description of what it is and
                                what it isn't and can't do following - then users I think would be
                                much more impressed.

                                Having said that there does seem to be a lot of work going into an 'it
                                just works' interface for Linux, the problem is though where
                                developers push this beyond a rational implementation.
                              • Gareth
                                ... wrote: ... Linux, a Unix like OS, was always a network operating system, Windows with its roots in DOS was always a single user system.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                  --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "dgholmes59"
                                  <dgholmes59@e...> wrote:
                                  ....
                                  > Gnome and KDE. If linux doesn't progress to a functional and easy to
                                  > use gui,

                                  Linux, a Unix like OS, was always a network operating system, Windows
                                  with its roots in DOS was always a single user system. The only
                                  company that ever did both well was Novell :)
                                • Gareth
                                  ... wrote: ... Back in the late 90 s Linux s user base was essentially scientific, so I guess this is where things will fall back if they
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                    --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "dgholmes59"
                                    <dgholmes59@e...> wrote:
                                    ....it will be destined only for the hobbiest that likes
                                    > tinkering with there computers and servers.
                                    >

                                    Back in the late 90's Linux's user base was essentially scientific, so
                                    I guess this is where things will fall back if they ever do.


                                    ....
                                    > I wish it were not true, but Windows 2000 professional still works
                                    > better on my old Dell Latitude 400 mhz, 256 mb memory laptop than
                                    > linux. The laptop is definitely runs faster with Windows. My
                                    > hardware definitely sets up easier and the machine requires much less
                                    > attention from me.
                                    >

                                    Supposing I were to say that Linux recently set itself the goal of
                                    being a worthwhile alternative to Windows before the next release of
                                    Windows, and looking at the top end of commercial Linux distributions,
                                    the game is still open. At the opposite end of the scale the only
                                    sys . admin. skills that I've needed with Ubuntu Breezy have been with
                                    acpi - I would guess that Linux will not ever support a Dell Latitude
                                    C600 fully in this respect, aiming for full support only of more
                                    recent hardware (i.e. as a baseline to start from).
                                  • whatiyam
                                    Well, i am a raw beginner, but the attration for me of open source is 1) i like some more control of the computer, there is none in the windows world, at least
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                      Well, i am a raw beginner, but the attration for me of open source is 1) i like some more control of the computer, there is none in the windows world, at least with non-network usage (i am doing it mostly for fun) and 2) i am just feed up with paying so much money for everything like antivirus software, backup programs, and i think this is a big factor in countries where users would rather do some learning and not pay anything extra where avoidable.

                                      On 10/22/05, Gareth <gsowww@...> wrote:
                                      --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "dgholmes59"
                                      <dgholmes59@e...> wrote:
                                      ....it will be destined only for the hobbiest that likes
                                      > tinkering with there computers and servers.
                                      >

                                      Back in the late 90's Linux's user base was essentially scientific, so
                                      I guess this is where things will fall back if they ever do.


                                      ....
                                      > I wish it were not true, but Windows 2000 professional still works
                                      > better on my old Dell Latitude 400 mhz, 256 mb memory laptop than
                                      > linux.  The laptop is definitely runs faster with Windows.  My
                                      > hardware definitely sets up easier and the machine requires much less
                                      > attention from me.
                                      >

                                      Supposing I were to say that Linux recently set itself the goal of
                                      being a worthwhile alternative to Windows before the next release of
                                      Windows, and looking at the top end of commercial Linux distributions,
                                      the game is still open.  At the opposite end of the scale the only
                                      sys . admin. skills that I've needed with Ubuntu Breezy have been with
                                      acpi - I would guess that Linux will not ever support a Dell Latitude
                                      C600 fully in this respect, aiming for full support only of more
                                      recent hardware (i.e. as a baseline to start from).





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                                    • Gareth
                                      ... Back in the late 90 s we assumed this was because Windows was coded so closely to the hardware (the caveat being portability). However in later years
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                        --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "dgholmes59"
                                        <dgholmes59@e...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        ....
                                        > linux. The laptop is definitely runs faster with Windows. My


                                        Back in the late 90's we assumed this was because Windows was coded so
                                        closely to the hardware (the caveat being portability). However in
                                        later years changes were made if I remember this correctly to the
                                        kernel architecture that made X a lot faster (the trade off was kernel
                                        stability), while a while ago the gnu C++ compiler was optimised
                                        considerably being a big boost for KDE, more recently GNOME has
                                        announced that is has optimised its code a lot, and the next release
                                        (current beta) of Firefox is as optimised as Opera or Explorer is.
                                        You need to pick up an i686 optimised distribution as well to get the
                                        most from a processor.

                                        The emphasis on Linux has always been code reuse and caching (and
                                        networks) rather than the single user environment of Windows.
                                        Developers on Linux as well I would guess mostly use high power
                                        servers, and since writing for themselves, it takes someone else to
                                        organise things for a notebook.
                                      • Gareth
                                        ... Could I suggest this combination: - SUSE Linux 10.0 download edition - Hacking OpenSUSE, http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/178/42/ Haven t
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                          --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, whatiyam <whatiyam@g...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well, i am a raw beginner


                                          Could I suggest this combination:

                                          - SUSE Linux 10.0 download edition
                                          - Hacking OpenSUSE, http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/178/42/

                                          Haven't done this myself but seems about the sanest around at the moment.

                                          There are other alternatives at this level (i.e. newbie, without
                                          support subscription), kUbuntu, Mandriva download, Knoppix, etc. - not
                                          sure if they would work for a beginner - but SUSE has definitely
                                          already made it into the next round. Alternatively you could train
                                          and become a Linux Engineer - we could do with a few more around :)
                                        • Gareth
                                          ... (cont. from upthread) The tradeoff is often cited as being between the legendary stability of Unix servers and the speed but software crashes and reboots
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                            --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "Gareth" <gsowww@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "dgholmes59"
                                            > <dgholmes59@e...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > ....
                                            > > linux. The laptop is definitely runs faster with Windows. My
                                            >

                                            (cont. from upthread)

                                            The tradeoff is often cited as being between the legendary stability
                                            of Unix servers and the speed but software crashes and reboots
                                            familiar to Windows users. Linux has been criticised for selling
                                            itself to some extent in its architecture to this latter group.
                                          • Herman
                                            ... Yes, the processor type is very important. Ubuntu is Linux for Africa and is purposely compiled to run on low end, recycled, machines and code is
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Oct 22, 2005
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                                              Gareth wrote:
                                              > --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, "dgholmes59"
                                              > <dgholmes59@e...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >>linux. The laptop is definitely runs faster with Windows. My
                                              >
                                              > You need to pick up an i686 optimised distribution as well to get the
                                              > most from a processor.

                                              Yes, the processor type is very important. Ubuntu is 'Linux for Africa'
                                              and is purposely compiled to run on low end, recycled, machines and code
                                              is generated for i386 processors. Ubuntu is designed to be easy to use,
                                              which makes it very popular, but bear in mind that its real target
                                              market is the 3rd world, small companies and disadvantaged people who
                                              cannot afford the latest gee-whizz machines.

                                              If you have a high end machine, then you will get better performance
                                              from for example, Mandriva, which is compiled with the i586 instruction set.

                                              Cheers,

                                              H.
                                            • uteck
                                              I saw an interview with a graphic artist were he started that the reason he, and others like him, use Photoshop is that they are familiar with the layout and
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Oct 23, 2005
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                                                I saw an interview with a graphic artist were he started that the
                                                reason he, and others like him, use Photoshop is that they are
                                                familiar with the layout and menu system. If they were to switch to a
                                                different program they would want a similar layout. If people can't
                                                find the function they are looking for they will conclude that it is
                                                not there and the application is not as good as what they are used to.
                                                They want to use the program, not learn it.

                                                So do you make the interface close to what people are used to, or
                                                assume that everyone will know that your naming system (which is
                                                different then others) does the same thing and that they need to look
                                                in a submenu for the option they want? Many people who use windows
                                                still believe that if the icon is not on the desktop the program is
                                                not installed. They don't know how to use the Start button after 10
                                                years of using the dam thing, or that they can type an address into
                                                Exploder and goto that website. If it is not bookmarked or linked
                                                they can't get there.

                                                This is the group of people that Linux developers are trying to get to
                                                use it, but they can't use anything that challenges them too much
                                                since they can't even use M$ beyond basic point and click. So, Linux
                                                needs to 'dumb down' the interface so the salt of the earth can not be
                                                intimidated or confused by it and so that professionals don't have to
                                                lose time figuring out were functions are moved to and how they are
                                                renamed.

                                                On 10/22/05, Gareth <gsowww@...> wrote:
                                                > --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, James Frye <frye@c...> wrote:
                                                > ....
                                                > > I wondered if it has ever occurred to the developers of these "desktops"
                                                > > that if I wanted something with a Windoze look & feel, I could save
                                                > myself
                                                > > considerable time & trouble by just buying Windoze :-)
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > I posted a post somewhere years ago along the lines that open source
                                                > is not Windows and shouldn't attempt to sell itself as a Windows - it
                                                > will be its downfall if it does.
                                                >
                                                > Whereas a Windows application works out of the box, the currency of an
                                                > open source application includes as well an interface to encourage
                                                > users to contribute to developing the application - how usable this
                                                > interface to the code and potential developers is could be just as
                                                > decisive as that of the GUI.
                                                >
                                                > Open source applications rather than polished products are often works
                                                > in progress, meeting community needs viz complete specifications etc.
                                                > etc. Users made aware of this through the way the software is
                                                > presented then have a realistic base on which to plan their own way
                                                > forward. This is omething that is lost if a user sets up a PC with
                                                > open source and simply finds it does not work. Whereas if the project
                                                > is presented as open source and not a product, then they have a
                                                > rational for the state of things and can plan more effectively for
                                                > themselves with that rational, which may well include developing (or
                                                > sponsoring development) themselves.
                                                >
                                                > If Linux users were sold an 'open source' product, with the software
                                                > in its historical context - an accurate description of what it is and
                                                > what it isn't and can't do following - then users I think would be
                                                > much more impressed.
                                                >
                                                > Having said that there does seem to be a lot of work going into an 'it
                                                > just works' interface for Linux, the problem is though where
                                                > developers push this beyond a rational implementation.
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                                              • James Frye
                                                ... That s the problem. The interfaces that might attract that kind of people make it less usable by people like me, for whom it is a useful and necessary
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Oct 23, 2005
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                                                  On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, uteck wrote:

                                                  > This is the group of people that Linux developers are trying to get to
                                                  > use it, but they can't use anything that challenges them too much
                                                  > since they can't even use M$ beyond basic point and click. So, Linux
                                                  > needs to 'dumb down' the interface...

                                                  That's the problem. The interfaces that might attract that kind of people
                                                  make it less usable by people like me, for whom it is a useful and
                                                  necessary tool. I understand the logic of what they think needs to be
                                                  done to attract the marching morons. What I don't understand is why on
                                                  Earth they should want to do so. Are they just driven by envy of Bill
                                                  Gates and his billions?

                                                  Maybe somebody needs to start a new distribution: Technix, maybe? I
                                                  don't think Geeknix really works :-)

                                                  James
                                                • Gareth
                                                  ... people ... That started happening at the turn of the centuary when Debian began inlcuding packages without man pages. I understand the logic of what they
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Oct 24, 2005
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                                                    --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, James Frye <frye@c...> wrote:
                                                    ...
                                                    > That's the problem. The interfaces that might attract that kind of
                                                    people
                                                    > make it less usable by people like me, for whom it is a useful and
                                                    > necessary tool.

                                                    That started happening at the turn of the centuary when Debian began
                                                    inlcuding packages without man pages.


                                                    I understand the logic of what they think needs to be
                                                    > done to attract the marching morons. What I don't understand is why on
                                                    > Earth they should want to do so. Are they just driven by envy of Bill
                                                    > Gates and his billions?
                                                    >

                                                    This is a standard argument that goes something like this:

                                                    From the Unix corner... if you want a planet full of idiots make
                                                    everything idiot proof.

                                                    In the opposite corner... if there exists a tool (namely a GUI) to do
                                                    a job faster and easier you would be insane not to use it.

                                                    I'm on the fence on this one myself... -|---&-&--|--


                                                    > Maybe somebody needs to start a new distribution: Technix, maybe? I
                                                    > don't think Geeknix really works :-)
                                                    >

                                                    Could be the solution, a distribution by and for Linux Engineers?
                                                    (open systems as well).


                                                    Gareth
                                                  • James Frye
                                                    ... The fallacy in that argument, of course, is the blanket assumption that a GUI does in fact make the job faster and easier. In my experience, that is
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Oct 24, 2005
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                                                      On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Gareth wrote:

                                                      > In the opposite corner... if there exists a tool (namely a GUI) to do
                                                      > a job faster and easier you would be insane not to use it.

                                                      The fallacy in that argument, of course, is the blanket assumption that a
                                                      GUI does in fact make the job faster and easier. In my experience, that
                                                      is seldom if ever the case.

                                                      James
                                                    • Gareth
                                                      ... that a ... A clash of values. If this were an international issue the first thing to do would be to say a prayer praying for a solution. The solution
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Oct 26, 2005
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                                                        --- In linux-dell-laptops@yahoogroups.com, James Frye <frye@c...> wrote:
                                                        ....
                                                        >
                                                        > The fallacy in that argument, of course, is the blanket assumption
                                                        that a
                                                        > GUI does in fact make the job faster and easier. In my experience, that
                                                        > is seldom if ever the case.
                                                        >

                                                        A clash of values. If this were an 'international' issue the first
                                                        thing to do would be to say a prayer praying for a solution.

                                                        The solution obviously is to create a whole new philosophy, prepend
                                                        everything to do with it with a 'g', and keep plugging away to
                                                        everybody as to the differences between the art of extracting the
                                                        maximum do$h from your customers and creativity in an open
                                                        architecture :)
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