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Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism

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  • sgk k
    Hi all I could download the same and it works fine now ... cool .. regarding the GUI mechanism what I would like to say is, if at all it is not performing
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 8, 2002
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      Hi all

      I could download the same and it works fine now ... cool ..

      regarding the GUI mechanism what I would like to say is, if at all it is not performing well compared to the OTHER OSes, people will think twice to take it as the first choice .. as far as a normal home user is concerned, performance in terms of speed and good looks matters a lot ... I do agree with the fact that the whole application frame work may have to be changed if we need to go for a new gui mechanism .. but still if we can find out - invent - a methode using wich the older version and the "new" versions will work together, it will revolutionise the picture of computing like any thing ... that is where OTHER operating systems are looking at .. to make "browsing" easy and good look and feel experience ... lay man doesn't care whether OS carries a message or not ... but if we can provide some thing which can deliver some thing more what OTHERs provide.. it will be accepted like any thing ...

      luv sgk

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Kingsly John <listmail@...>
      Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:05:45 +0530
      To: linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism


      > +++ Pallav Nawani [Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 02:30:20PM +0530]:
      > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, sgk k wrote:
      > >
      > > > Hi all
      > > >
      > > > I am using RH7.2 in my desktop. One of the most common problem I am facing is with
      > > > GUI. My Mozilla browser crashed many times ( more than
      > >
      > > What is the version of mozilla you are using? Mostlikely, It may
      > > be a development version and therefore buggy. Try the latest
      > > stable release version of mozilla. It is rock solid.
      >
      >
      > 1.1 beta is better... faster rendering and the downloader works! and it has Full-Screen mode!
      >
      > > > X system is not required - , why can't we think about a
      > > >different stable GUI system.
      > >
      > > Xwindows is quite flexible. Granted, it may be a
      > > little slow, but that has been a non issue for some time now.
      >
      > Most importantly.. the entire application base would have to start from scratch!
      >
      > Kingsly
      >
      >
      > --
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------------------------------------
      > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
      > ---------------------------------------------------------------
      > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
      > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
      >
      > Before you post to this list, please read
      > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >

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    • Satish K. Pagare
      Can you please insert key whenever you type your reply ? Your replies are like one long line .... miles long !!! Satish ... -- ... Thou shalt not add
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 8, 2002
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        Can you please insert <ENTER> key whenever you type your reply ?
        Your replies are like one long line .... miles long !!!

        Satish

        sgk k wrote:

        > Hi all
        >
        > I could download the same and it works fine now ... cool ..
        >
        > regarding the GUI mechanism what I would like to say is, if at all it is not performing well compared to the OTHER OSes, people will think twice to take it as the first choice .. as far as a normal home user is concerned, performance in terms of speed and good looks matters a lot ... I do agree with the fact that the whole application frame work may have to be changed if we need to go for a new gui mechanism .. but still if we can find out - invent - a methode using wich the older version and the "new" versions will work together, it will revolutionise the picture of computing like any thing ... that is where OTHER operating systems are looking at .. to make "browsing" easy and good look and feel experience ... lay man doesn't care whether OS carries a message or not ... but if we can provide some thing which can deliver some thing more what OTHERs provide.. it will be accepted like any thing ...
        >
        > luv sgk
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Kingsly John <listmail@...>
        > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:05:45 +0530
        > To: linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism
        >
        > > +++ Pallav Nawani [Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 02:30:20PM +0530]:
        > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, sgk k wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > Hi all
        > > > >
        > > > > I am using RH7.2 in my desktop. One of the most common problem I am facing is with
        > > > > GUI. My Mozilla browser crashed many times ( more than
        > > >
        > > > What is the version of mozilla you are using? Mostlikely, It may
        > > > be a development version and therefore buggy. Try the latest
        > > > stable release version of mozilla. It is rock solid.
        > >
        > >
        > > 1.1 beta is better... faster rendering and the downloader works! and it has Full-Screen mode!
        > >
        > > > > X system is not required - , why can't we think about a
        > > > >different stable GUI system.
        > > >
        > > > Xwindows is quite flexible. Granted, it may be a
        > > > little slow, but that has been a non issue for some time now.
        > >
        > > Most importantly.. the entire application base would have to start from scratch!
        > >
        > > Kingsly
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        > > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
        > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        > > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
        > > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
        > >
        > > Before you post to this list, please read
        > > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > _______________________________________________
        > Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net
        >
        > Powered by Outblaze
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
        > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
        >
        > Before you post to this list, please read
        > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

        --
        ----------------------------------------------------------------
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        ----------------------------------------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sgk k
        I think it is a proble with the mail provider I am using ... they are not wrapping the mail automatically .. I will do it now on .. ... From: Satish K.
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 8, 2002
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          I think it is a proble with the mail provider I am using ... they are
          not wrapping the mail automatically .. I will do it now on ..


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Satish K. Pagare" <satish.pagare@...>
          Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:46:01 +0530
          To: linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism


          > Can you please insert <ENTER> key whenever you type your reply ?
          > Your replies are like one long line .... miles long !!!
          >
          > Satish
          >
          > sgk k wrote:
          >
          > > Hi all
          > >
          > > I could download the same and it works fine now ... cool ..
          > >
          > > regarding the GUI mechanism what I would like to say is, if at all it is not performing well compared to the OTHER OSes, people will think twice to take it as the first choice .. as far as a normal home user is concerned, performance in terms of speed and good looks matters a lot ... I do agree with the fact that the whole application frame work may have to be changed if we need to go for a new gui mechanism .. but still if we can find out - invent - a methode using wich the older version and the "new" versions will work together, it will revolutionise the picture of computing like any thing ... that is where OTHER operating systems are looking at .. to make "browsing" easy and good look and feel experience ... lay man doesn't care whether OS carries a message or not ... but if we can provide some thing which can deliver some thing more what OTHERs provide.. it will be accepted like any thing ...
          > >
          > > luv sgk
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Kingsly John <listmail@...>
          > > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:05:45 +0530
          > > To: linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism
          > >
          > > > +++ Pallav Nawani [Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 02:30:20PM +0530]:
          > > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, sgk k wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > Hi all
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I am using RH7.2 in my desktop. One of the most common problem I am facing is with
          > > > > > GUI. My Mozilla browser crashed many times ( more than
          > > > >
          > > > > What is the version of mozilla you are using? Mostlikely, It may
          > > > > be a development version and therefore buggy. Try the latest
          > > > > stable release version of mozilla. It is rock solid.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > 1.1 beta is better... faster rendering and the downloader works! and it has Full-Screen mode!
          > > >
          > > > > > X system is not required - , why can't we think about a
          > > > > >different stable GUI system.
          > > > >
          > > > > Xwindows is quite flexible. Granted, it may be a
          > > > > little slow, but that has been a non issue for some time now.
          > > >
          > > > Most importantly.. the entire application base would have to start from scratch!
          > > >
          > > > Kingsly
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > > > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
          > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > > > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
          > > > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
          > > >
          > > > Before you post to this list, please read
          > > > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > _______________________________________________
          > > Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net
          > >
          > > Powered by Outblaze
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
          > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
          > > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
          > >
          > > Before you post to this list, please read
          > > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          > --
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------
          > Thou shalt not add thy speed to the spped
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------
          > http://www.geocities.com/asatsi
          > Support SETI: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
          > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
          >
          > Before you post to this list, please read
          > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >

          --
          _______________________________________________
          Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net

          Powered by Outblaze
        • int3
          I think, It depends on the settings of mail client, i am able to view ur mail properly. Regards, int3 ... From: sgk k To:
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 8, 2002
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            I think, It depends on the settings of mail client, i am able to view ur
            mail properly.

            Regards,
            int3

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "sgk k" <sgk@...>
            To: <linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:28 PM
            Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism


            > I think it is a proble with the mail provider I am using ... they are
            > not wrapping the mail automatically .. I will do it now on ..
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Satish K. Pagare" <satish.pagare@...>
            > Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:46:01 +0530
            > To: linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism
            >
            >
            > > Can you please insert <ENTER> key whenever you type your reply ?
            > > Your replies are like one long line .... miles long !!!
            > >
            > > Satish
            > >
            > > sgk k wrote:
            > >
            > > > Hi all
            > > >
            > > > I could download the same and it works fine now ... cool ..
            > > >
            > > > regarding the GUI mechanism what I would like to say is, if at all
            it is not performing well compared to the OTHER OSes, people will think
            twice to take it as the first choice .. as far as a normal home user is
            concerned, performance in terms of speed and good looks matters a lot ... I
            do agree with the fact that the whole application frame work may have to be
            changed if we need to go for a new gui mechanism .. but still if we can find
            out - invent - a methode using wich the older version and the "new" versions
            will work together, it will revolutionise the picture of computing like any
            thing ... that is where OTHER operating systems are looking at .. to make
            "browsing" easy and good look and feel experience ... lay man doesn't care
            whether OS carries a message or not ... but if we can provide some thing
            which can deliver some thing more what OTHERs provide.. it will be accepted
            like any thing ...
            > > >
            > > > luv sgk
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: Kingsly John <listmail@...>
            > > > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:05:45 +0530
            > > > To: linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism
            > > >
            > > > > +++ Pallav Nawani [Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 02:30:20PM +0530]:
            > > > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, sgk k wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > > Hi all
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I am using RH7.2 in my desktop. One of the most common
            problem I am facing is with
            > > > > > > GUI. My Mozilla browser crashed many times ( more than
            > > > > >
            > > > > > What is the version of mozilla you are using? Mostlikely, It may
            > > > > > be a development version and therefore buggy. Try the latest
            > > > > > stable release version of mozilla. It is rock solid.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > 1.1 beta is better... faster rendering and the downloader works! and
            it has Full-Screen mode!
            > > > >
            > > > > > > X system is not required - , why can't we think about a
            > > > > > >different stable GUI system.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Xwindows is quite flexible. Granted, it may be a
            > > > > > little slow, but that has been a non issue for some time now.
            > > > >
            > > > > Most importantly.. the entire application base would have to start
            from scratch!
            > > > >
            > > > > Kingsly
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
            > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
            > > > > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
            > > > >
            > > > > Before you post to this list, please read
            > > > > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > _______________________________________________
            > > > Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net
            > > >
            > > > Powered by Outblaze
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
            > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
            > > > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
            > > >
            > > > Before you post to this list, please read
            > > > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > > --
            > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
            > > Thou shalt not add thy speed to the spped
            > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
            > > http://www.geocities.com/asatsi
            > > Support SETI: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
            > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
            > > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
            > >
            > > Before you post to this list, please read
            > > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > _______________________________________________
            > Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net
            >
            > Powered by Outblaze
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
            > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
            >
            > Before you post to this list, please read
            > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Pallav Nawani
            ... Normally, people don t think when they choose an OS. They just go along and buy what everyone else is buying, or what the assembler installs on their pc or
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 8, 2002
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              On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, sgk k wrote:

              > Hi all
              >
              > I could download the same and it works fine now ... cool ..
              >
              > regarding the GUI mechanism what I would like to say is, if at all
              >it is not performing well compared to the OTHER OSes, people
              >will think twice to take it as the first choice .. as far a

              Normally, people don't think when they choose an OS. They just go
              along and buy what everyone else is buying, or what the assembler
              installs on their pc or if they buy a branded pc, what comes
              preinstalled.


              > a normal home user is concerned, performance in terms of speed
              >and
              >good looks matters a lot ... I do agree with the fact that the
              >whole

              I would have thought that the normal user cares LESS about this
              stuff- He just wants to get his work done. Normal user dosen't
              KNOW that his computer is running slow. In any case, an X
              application may be slower by milliseconds - hardly noticeable
              now a days.

              Your normal home user dosen't even know how to change desktop
              themes even in Windows. As far as looks are concerned, BOTH
              KDE and GNOME look far, far better than your stock (or even
              themed) windows pc. And if you really miss the familiarity of
              the windows interface, you can always use some 'windows theme
              for KDE and GNOME'.


              >application frame work may have to be changed if we need to go
              >for a
              >new gui mechanism .. but still if we can find out - invent - a
              >methode

              I am unable to understand your insistence on a new GUI. What
              makes you think that X comes up short? what makes you think that
              it is unstable?

              >using wich the older version and the "new" versions will work
              >together,
              >it will revolutionise the picture of computing like any thing

              How so?

              >care whether OS carries a message or not ... but if we can
              >provide some
              >thing which can deliver some thing more what OTHERs provide..
              >it will be accepted like any thing ...

              If we provide the same thing that other oses provides, we will be
              an also ran, a clone. And everybody knows that clones are not as
              good as the original. This may not be true in reality, but once
              you get labeled as a clone, you're as good as finished. The point
              here is that perception in the persons mind is the key. If he
              thinks you are a clone, the assumption that you are not as good
              automatically follows.

              The way to do this is not clone what other OSes do, but to
              position linux as DIFFERENT. In some way.

              my 10 paise.

              regards,
              Pallav.

              _______________________________________________________________________
              A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance.
              _________________________________________________________________
              | |
              |Pallav Nawani |
              |Sasken Communication Technologies Ltd. |
              |Domlur, Bangalore. |
              |Personal Web Page: http://members.dencity.com/pallavnawani |
              |_______________________________________________________________|
            • Omanakuttan
              ... What you say is true. And I realize that it does not require any backing from anybody else. From the point of view of a casual/home user, I think X s lack
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
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                > Normally, people don't think when they choose an OS. They just go
                > along and buy what everyone else is buying, or what the assembler
                > installs on their pc or if they buy a branded pc, what comes
                > preinstalled.
                What you say is true. And I realize that it does not require any backing
                from anybody else.
                From the point of view of a casual/home user, I think X's lack of
                popularity is not the problem with X-Windows... But with the destro's..
                I have been using Linux from kernel 1.2. I was using slackware At that time
                I could not really get X running.. I had to struggle around 10 hours on end
                to make linux up.. In the process I learned many things.. but X was a big
                no-no for me.. because on a P-133, with 16 mb ram, it was awful... not
                because of speed, but of looks and of course usability.
                I have not used any other destro's except RH (5.1, 6.2, 7.1, and now
                7.2 )for a long time. Primarily because I was a student at that time and
                could not find one destro fitting my pocket and always resorted to PCQ free
                CDs.
                True, X has come a long way since those days. But even now, even with X-4 on
                an Athlon1.6XP, Win98/Me is faster than and easy to use (I repeat from a
                Home user's perspective, and with default installation).
                Not everybody in india is lucky enough to get a leased line or a modem and
                get connected to net and download the latest stable versions of the
                programs. It is the destro's responsibility to ship something stable (Or the
                buyers' responsibility to buy the ones which ship them, but as a buyer why
                shall I take that extra burden, when Windoze is available). The MS's disease
                of shipping half backed programs have engulfed the destros too.. Ok, if it
                does not satisfy the hackers ( I don't think so because a majority of them
                will have net access) they could at least ship 2 different versions. I
                cannot
                help stating the RH7.1 was a major disappointment. I think it was a melange
                of pre-alphas, betas and stable ones. RH7.2 was not very different.
                I don't have a leased line at my home to download a whopping 10
                MB Mozilla installable and enjoy it. I have to resort to the free linux (or
                minimally priced ones) destro CDs. And who can blame me when they don't work
                as I expect and shoot questions in the mailing lists ? ( My expectation are
                based on what I get and had gotten from a
                windoze box.. I might be using one in office, cyber cafe's... etc )
                Moreover why shall I get/buy latest destro's somebody is slapping on me? I
                want to install something and forget it.. I have more important work to do
                than wasting my time installing different linuxes, because I am not a geek,
                but a casual user.
                One thing I would like to state here is nobody wants to change his habits.
                People want to continue what they are used to and sometimes they stubbornly
                refuse to change..As Morpheus states in The Matrix :"Some people you want to
                free from the system, are hopelessly dependent on the system"

                the opinion that GNome and KDE are much better than Windoze is true.. But as
                all in this group are aware desktop market share of M$ is much higher than
                that of Linux. for anything to bite into that market, linux GUI should
                exactly (at least 90%) emulate Windoze Gui. (Remember how dos made a good
                market share from CP/M? I won't say it should run M$Office, as long as
                Star/Open office opens their Exel sheets (Not spread sheets.. that is M$
                effect) and doc files...Simply because the people don't care. All tehy want
                to do is double click the icon and the application should open..), and that
                must come default. The initiated can
                change it during installation .. People don't care which operating system
                they use as long as they get their work done. Moreover if all the tools,
                like AbiWord, Star office , Mozilla are in place and they are stable, they
                will wonder only why their `compter` does not require frequent swichoffs ?
                And then Linux will rule the desktop....
                And then they will listen to the message the OS carries....
                Earnestly hoping for that tomorrow..

                Peace.
                <Esc>:1,$ s/my/Casual user\'s/<enter>
                Om. Shanti Shanti...
                JAH.
              • Pallav Nawani
                ... X has always been this way. The problem was with the implementation, xfree86, that did not support many graphics cards then. ... See, that s why I said
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
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                  > True, X has come a long way since those days. But even now, even with X-4 on

                  X has always been this way. The problem was with the
                  implementation, xfree86, that did not support many graphics cards
                  then.

                  > an Athlon1.6XP, Win98/Me is faster than and easy to use (I repeat from a
                  > Home user's perspective, and with default installation).

                  See, that's why I said that the perception in the user's mind is
                  the key here. You FEEL that Win is easier to use. In reality, you
                  click buttons in both Linux & Windows - no difference in
                  usability. You are familiar to Win - so you think its easier to
                  use.

                  > programs. It is the destro's responsibility to ship something stable (Or the

                  Again, redhat WOULD have shipped Mozilla 1.0 in 7.2 release if it
                  was available when they released it. A newer version of Redhat
                  will now obviously carry the newer version of Mozilla.

                  > minimally priced ones) destro CDs. And who can blame me when they don't work
                  > as I expect and shoot questions in the mailing lists ? ( My expectation are

                  Nobody does either. mailing lists are for asking questions,
                  aren't they?

                  > Moreover why shall I get/buy latest destro's somebody is slapping on me? I
                  > want to install something and forget it.. I have more important work to do

                  Yes, but nobody forces you to buy a new distro, you can continue
                  with RedHat 6.0 if you want to. In fact, the pc from which I am
                  writing this email runs 6.2.

                  > all in this group are aware desktop market share of M$ is much higher than
                  > that of Linux. for anything to bite into that market, linux GUI should
                  > exactly (at least 90%) emulate Windoze Gui. (Remember how dos made a good

                  See, that's where You and I don't agree. To bite into a leader's
                  market share, you have to be DIFFERENT from the leader. Actually,
                  you don't have to BE different, you have to POSITION yourself as
                  different. Why should somebody buy a windows clone when he can
                  buy windows itself?

                  Buying something different - that somehow suits a buyers
                  personality - now that's a different Idea. That's why linux is so
                  favoured by geeks. Linux is a niche OS, and that's the way it
                  will stay, Unless some linux company gets big money and uses it
                  for smart marketing. And that's why apple is forever condemned to
                  be a niche player.

                  Case in point: GUI.

                  As lots of people think, not having a Win$ like GUI is a
                  handicap. Or is it? Win$ gui is not flexible, very functional,
                  too familiar, and too boring. Now if you could market Linux
                  distros as having a different, colorful, exciting, personizable
                  GUI, won't that be an advantage? Enlightnment is probably the
                  best looking window manager in the world! Anybody who sees
                  KDE/GNOME operation should be just blown away by the look.

                  Remember, people don't buy on facts or logic. They buy on
                  emotions, and then use logic to justify that purchase. In fact,
                  you could even customize error messages, help tips for different
                  kind of users, essentially giving the computers a different
                  PERSONALITY. You could have humorous error-message theme, you
                  could have a doctor-ly error message theme and so on. And then
                  you will be able to sell it, and people will buy it, because they
                  like it. And like always, later they will be able to justify it.

                  People think that linux being not easy to install is a problem.
                  Really? Well, guess what, you can sell linux pcs as a knock down,
                  do it yourself kit, and I am damn sure it will find buyers
                  aplenty.

                  And what makes this approach even better is that Microsoft cannot
                  reply to It. They cannot personalize their computers, they cannot
                  change the gui, because they have millions of costumers who
                  are accustomed to the older GUIs and as you say, they are
                  resistant to change. See how microsoft's strength has now turned
                  into a weakness?

                  Now don't say: You can't do that. You don't know: You've never
                  tried it!


                  > market share from CP/M? I won't say it should run M$Office, as long as

                  DOS took market share from CP/M because IBM shipped it with their
                  PC. period.

                  > Earnestly hoping for that tomorrow..

                  You don't have to wait until tomorrow. openoffice is now VERY
                  good at opening excel worksheets and doc files and so on. So
                  where are the new users? where are the new adapters?

                  --

                  regards,
                  Pallav.

                  _______________________________________________________________________
                  Infancy, n.:
                  The period of our lives when, according to Wordsworth, "Heaven lies
                  about us." The world begins lying about us pretty soon afterward.
                  -- Ambrose Bierce
                  _________________________________________________________________
                  | |
                  |Pallav Nawani |
                  |Sasken Communication Technologies Ltd. |
                  |Domlur, Bangalore. |
                  |Personal Web Page: http://members.dencity.com/pallavnawani |
                  |_______________________________________________________________|
                • Kenneth Gonsalves
                  and also in india linux is far more expensive to install than M$ ... kg
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    and also in india linux is far more expensive to install than M$ ...
                    kg
                    On Friday 09 August 2002 12:44, you wrote:
                    > > Normally, people don't think when they choose an OS. They just go
                    > > along and buy what everyone else is buying, or what the assembler
                    > > installs on their pc or if they buy a branded pc, what comes
                    > > preinstalled.
                    >
                    > What you say is true. And I realize that it does not require any backing
                    > from anybody else.
                    > From the point of view of a casual/home user, I think X's lack of
                    > popularity is not the problem with X-Windows... But with the destro's..
                  • Omanakuttan
                    Hi , I think we spoke the same things, but understood them differently. ... I was not whining that linux GUI is not a win clone. What I was trying to put
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi ,
                      I think we spoke the same things, but understood them differently.
                      > usability. You are familiar to Win - so you think its easier to use.
                      I was not whining that linux GUI is not a win clone. What I was trying to
                      put across is among other window managers, if there were one resembling M$
                      GUI, it would have been far easier to position linux as a `familiar` desktop
                      and thus take a bite into the present market share of M$. I think I should
                      make such a destro and try :-)

                      Then a win-like GUI will reduce the learning curve of linux GUI for any one
                      (assuming familiarity with M$ platforms), give them initial confidence to
                      experiment with other options. And the stability and price tag and a myriad
                      of other useful things will make them avid linux fans.

                      > Buying something different - that somehow suits a buyers
                      > personality - now that's a different Idea. That's why linux is so
                      > favoured by geeks. Linux is a niche OS, and that's the way it
                      With a clone of Win GUI, (of course among others like wm, kde, GNOME...etc),
                      with an option in the installation menu to make it default, I believe this
                      niche will expand and carve into M$ market share.

                      > will stay, Unless some linux company gets big money and uses it
                      > for smart marketing. And that's why apple is forever condemned to
                      Precisely, smart marketing....
                      If there is a Win clone GUI, as well as all the current features, we can
                      sell Linux both on its similarity and differences. Similarities are like a
                      double edged sword, you mentioned only one side of that. One will be able to
                      sell it both on its similarites as well as differences. Of course linux
                      already sells on its differences with M$ in server market.. why not make it
                      similar and sell it in desktop market ?
                      Let me quote a story : "Two sales persons for a footwear company went to an
                      island. One returned gloomily and said. None wears chappals there. The other
                      returned happliy and placed an order of 1 million and said "None wears
                      chappals there!"
                      You said it in two words, smart marketing...
                      > As lots of people think, not having a Win$ like GUI is a
                      > handicap. Or is it? Win$ gui is not flexible, very functional,
                      Not having a win like gui (among all other kind of gui is a handicap in the
                      desktop market).

                      > too familiar, and too boring. Now if you could market Linux
                      > GUI, won't that be an advantage? Enlightnment is probably the
                      True.. I admit. But just like exotic ganymede, if there is one theme exactly
                      resembling win Gui, I could have contributed at least 5-10 more users to the
                      linux community. (Of course, My parents, uncles/aunts ... who just manages
                      to send e-mails to their loved ones and gets overwhelmed by the options in
                      linux gui and complain 'yeh screen woh (win98) jaisa nahin hai.. ')

                      > Remember, people don't buy on facts or logic. They buy on
                      > emotions, and then use logic to justify that purchase. In fact,
                      Why don't we tap their emotions and give them lots of reasons to state by
                      giving an optional win like GUI among others in Linux?

                      > change the gui, because they have millions of costumers who
                      > are accustomed to the older GUIs and as you say, they are
                      millions ---- Smart marketing...

                      > Now don't say: You can't do that. You don't know: You've never
                      > tried it!
                      All the questions I raised were asked to me while I tried to help many move
                      from windows world to the free world. Willing dogs ( need not ncessarily
                      old) learns new tricks, but to reduce the learning curve, we can teach them
                      in disguise.
                      In that way, RH 7.2 was of great help. The changeover is much smoother now.

                      > > market share from CP/M? I won't say it should run M$Office, as long as
                      > DOS took market share from CP/M because IBM shipped it with their
                      > PC. period.
                      http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html
                      The ideas expressed are his own, but IMHO, they are applicable to any
                      software.

                      Thank you,
                      Om
                      "Millions of people.. living out their life.. Oblivious... " Agent Smith ,
                      The Matrix.
                    • Dushyanth Harinath
                      Hi , ... In what ways ?. Buying a distro, lack of technical people, lack of support. And why specially in India. What I feel is Linux is costlier for people
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi ,

                        * <lawgon@...> wrote from a remote bunker :
                        > and also in india linux is far more expensive to install than M$ ...

                        In what ways ?. Buying a distro, lack of technical people, lack of
                        support. And why specially in India.

                        What I feel is Linux is costlier for people who dont wish to learn.

                        cheers
                        dushyanth
                        --
                        http://symonds.net/~dushy
                      • sgk k
                        HI I STILL FEEL THAT WE ARE NOT HERE TO LOOT INTO SOME ONE s MARKET BY MIMIKING THEM .. WE HAVE OUR OWN STAND AND A BETTER STAND .. BUT STILL WHAT WE NEED TO
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          HI

                          I STILL FEEL THAT WE ARE NOT HERE TO LOOT INTO SOME ONE's MARKET BY MIMIKING THEM .. WE HAVE OUR OWN STAND AND A BETTER STAND .. BUT STILL WHAT WE NEED TO THINK THE WAY WE CAN IMPROVE OUR CAPABILITY TO GIVE SOME THING MORE TO THE PEOPLE WE ARE TARGETTING .. A VALUE ADITION .. OTHER WISE IF WE TRY TO RACE BY MIMIKING THE WAY OTHERS DO, WE WILL NEVER COME OUT WITH A WINNING ACHIEVEMENT .. PEOPLE ARE REALLY BORED OF THE UBIQUITOUS GUI ... THAT IS WHERE OUR FLEXIBLE CUSTOMISABLE STUFF SCORES .. WE NEED TO MAKE IT REFINED THAT IS ALL ..


                          sgk



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Omanakuttan" <omanakuttan@...>
                          Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:24:48 +0530
                          To: <linux-bangalore-programming@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [blug-prog] Considering a new GUI mechanism


                          > Hi ,
                          > I think we spoke the same things, but understood them differently.
                          > > usability. You are familiar to Win - so you think its easier to use.
                          > I was not whining that linux GUI is not a win clone. What I was trying to
                          > put across is among other window managers, if there were one resembling M$
                          > GUI, it would have been far easier to position linux as a `familiar` desktop
                          > and thus take a bite into the present market share of M$. I think I should
                          > make such a destro and try :-)
                          >
                          > Then a win-like GUI will reduce the learning curve of linux GUI for any one
                          > (assuming familiarity with M$ platforms), give them initial confidence to
                          > experiment with other options. And the stability and price tag and a myriad
                          > of other useful things will make them avid linux fans.
                          >
                          > > Buying something different - that somehow suits a buyers
                          > > personality - now that's a different Idea. That's why linux is so
                          > > favoured by geeks. Linux is a niche OS, and that's the way it
                          > With a clone of Win GUI, (of course among others like wm, kde, GNOME...etc),
                          > with an option in the installation menu to make it default, I believe this
                          > niche will expand and carve into M$ market share.
                          >
                          > > will stay, Unless some linux company gets big money and uses it
                          > > for smart marketing. And that's why apple is forever condemned to
                          > Precisely, smart marketing....
                          > If there is a Win clone GUI, as well as all the current features, we can
                          > sell Linux both on its similarity and differences. Similarities are like a
                          > double edged sword, you mentioned only one side of that. One will be able to
                          > sell it both on its similarites as well as differences. Of course linux
                          > already sells on its differences with M$ in server market.. why not make it
                          > similar and sell it in desktop market ?
                          > Let me quote a story : "Two sales persons for a footwear company went to an
                          > island. One returned gloomily and said. None wears chappals there. The other
                          > returned happliy and placed an order of 1 million and said "None wears
                          > chappals there!"
                          > You said it in two words, smart marketing...
                          > > As lots of people think, not having a Win$ like GUI is a
                          > > handicap. Or is it? Win$ gui is not flexible, very functional,
                          > Not having a win like gui (among all other kind of gui is a handicap in the
                          > desktop market).
                          >
                          > > too familiar, and too boring. Now if you could market Linux
                          > > GUI, won't that be an advantage? Enlightnment is probably the
                          > True.. I admit. But just like exotic ganymede, if there is one theme exactly
                          > resembling win Gui, I could have contributed at least 5-10 more users to the
                          > linux community. (Of course, My parents, uncles/aunts ... who just manages
                          > to send e-mails to their loved ones and gets overwhelmed by the options in
                          > linux gui and complain 'yeh screen woh (win98) jaisa nahin hai.. ')
                          >
                          > > Remember, people don't buy on facts or logic. They buy on
                          > > emotions, and then use logic to justify that purchase. In fact,
                          > Why don't we tap their emotions and give them lots of reasons to state by
                          > giving an optional win like GUI among others in Linux?
                          >
                          > > change the gui, because they have millions of costumers who
                          > > are accustomed to the older GUIs and as you say, they are
                          > millions ---- Smart marketing...
                          >
                          > > Now don't say: You can't do that. You don't know: You've never
                          > > tried it!
                          > All the questions I raised were asked to me while I tried to help many move
                          > from windows world to the free world. Willing dogs ( need not ncessarily
                          > old) learns new tricks, but to reduce the learning curve, we can teach them
                          > in disguise.
                          > In that way, RH 7.2 was of great help. The changeover is much smoother now.
                          >
                          > > > market share from CP/M? I won't say it should run M$Office, as long as
                          > > DOS took market share from CP/M because IBM shipped it with their
                          > > PC. period.
                          > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html
                          > The ideas expressed are his own, but IMHO, they are applicable to any
                          > software.
                          >
                          > Thank you,
                          > Om
                          > "Millions of people.. living out their life.. Oblivious... " Agent Smith ,
                          > The Matrix.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          > This is the programming list of the Bangalore Linux Users Group
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          > Go to http://linux-bangalore.org for more information
                          > about us, as well as our other mailing lists
                          >
                          > Before you post to this list, please read
                          > http://linux-bangalore.org/articles/smart-questions.php
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >

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                        • Dushyanth Harinath
                          Hi , ... Common, you dont have to make linux GUI look like windoze GUI to make it popular on desktops. Giving what the users dont find in windoze will help
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi ,

                            * <omanakuttan@...> wrote from a remote bunker :
                            > I think we spoke the same things, but understood them differently.
                            > > usability. You are familiar to Win - so you think its easier to use.
                            > I was not whining that linux GUI is not a win clone. What I was trying to
                            > put across is among other window managers, if there were one resembling M$
                            > GUI, it would have been far easier to position linux as a `familiar` desktop
                            > and thus take a bite into the present market share of M$. I think I should
                            > make such a destro and try :-)

                            Common, you dont have to make linux GUI look like windoze GUI to make it
                            popular on desktops. Giving what the users dont find in windoze will
                            help you, if you are really serious in making one. And if you go ahead
                            making one like windoze GUI and strip of all the functionalities of X or
                            bloat as you may call it, you will even scare away a normal linux desktop
                            user :). Sell the difference and dont try to compare Linux with windoze.
                            You will loose if you try to compare them.

                            > Then a win-like GUI will reduce the learning curve of linux GUI for any one
                            > (assuming familiarity with M$ platforms), give them initial confidence to
                            > experiment with other options. And the stability and price tag and a myriad
                            > of other useful things will make them avid linux fans.

                            hmnn, you gotto invest to get returns. If you want to escape from the
                            vendor lock in, costly upgrades, virus and worm disasters spending some
                            time learning linux will help.

                            > > Buying something different - that somehow suits a buyers
                            > > personality - now that's a different Idea. That's why linux is so
                            > > favoured by geeks. Linux is a niche OS, and that's the way it
                            > With a clone of Win GUI, (of course among others like wm, kde, GNOME...etc),
                            > with an option in the installation menu to make it default, I believe this
                            > niche will expand and carve into M$ market share.

                            You seem to think that Win GUI clone in Linux will help linux gain its
                            market share whilst all attempts in making Linux look like Windoze has
                            failed. Ever heard about Lindows ?.

                            > > too familiar, and too boring. Now if you could market Linux
                            > > GUI, won't that be an advantage? Enlightnment is probably the
                            > True.. I admit. But just like exotic ganymede, if there is one theme exactly
                            > resembling win Gui, I could have contributed at least 5-10 more users to the
                            > linux community. (Of course, My parents, uncles/aunts ... who just manages
                            > to send e-mails to their loved ones and gets overwhelmed by the options in
                            > linux gui and complain 'yeh screen woh (win98) jaisa nahin hai.. ')

                            Duh!. You get the best standards complaint browsers with any descent distro,
                            Plethora of mail clients like Kmail, evolution etc. What you are whining
                            about is absolutely a no brainer. Show them these and ask them to use it.
                            They will be definetly be happy once they get familiar with it. If you can't
                            convice them about this , then you certainly can't convince everyone that a
                            clone of Win GUI will do wonders for Linux on the desktop market.

                            > > Remember, people don't buy on facts or logic. They buy on
                            > > emotions, and then use logic to justify that purchase. In fact,
                            > Why don't we tap their emotions and give them lots of reasons to state by
                            > giving an optional win like GUI among others in Linux?

                            What emotions?. I disagree with both of you here. There is no emotions
                            invloved at all. A customer is smart enuff to decide what he wants. It
                            depends on how you sell it.

                            > > Now don't say: You can't do that. You don't know: You've never
                            > > tried it!
                            > All the questions I raised were asked to me while I tried to help many move
                            > from windows world to the free world. Willing dogs ( need not ncessarily
                            > old) learns new tricks, but to reduce the learning curve, we can teach them
                            > in disguise.

                            The users you are trying to convert dont need a another GUI system. They
                            need a better holding hand. They need alternatives to windoze and not a
                            clone.

                            > In that way, RH 7.2 was of great help. The changeover is much smoother now.

                            Try the recent kde alpha releases, damn, I dont have the links to the
                            screenshots with me. It rocks!

                            If you are really interested in advocasy, use the below link..
                            http://zgp.org/~dmarti/linuxmanship/

                            oops, realised now that this discussion is on the programming list,
                            Isn't this very OT here.

                            cheers
                            dushyanth
                            --
                            "shutdown -halt now" - The final word in network security tools.

                            http://symonds.net/~dushy
                          • Atul Chitnis
                            This thread should please be continued in linux-bangalore-non-tech (where it should have been started in first place), since it has *nothing* to dowith
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              <admin>

                              This thread should please be continued in linux-bangalore-non-tech (where
                              it should have been started in first place), since it has *nothing* to
                              dowith programming.

                              Also SGK - ALL-CAPS messages are *not* allowed anywhere on the Internet,
                              and most definitely not in our lists.

                              </admin>

                              --
                              -------------------------------------------
                              Atul Chitnis | achitnis@...
                              Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com
                              Bangalore, India | +91 (80) 344-0397
                              -------------------------------------------
                            • amith nambiar
                              hi list ! i am facing some problem opening /dev/dsp for read/write - it works on some machines but not on all - i tried fuser -a /dev/dsp but no process
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                hi list !

                                i am facing some problem opening /dev/dsp for read/write - it works on some machines but not on all - i tried fuser -a /dev/dsp but no process seems to use it .

                                I'am using RedHat Linux 7.2 . I even tried fuser -k /dev/dsp but still it fails to open

                                could someone help.

                                Thanks in advance.

                                best regards,

                                Amith N







                                ---------------------------------
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                              • Kenneth Gonsalves
                                redhat 7.3 cost me about 750/- for the cds (had to order from bangalore) several ppl i know, at the same time, have installed windows2000, m$office, etc etc
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 9, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  redhat 7.3 cost me about 750/- for the cds (had to order from bangalore)
                                  several ppl i know, at the same time, have installed windows2000, m$office,
                                  etc etc without spending anything
                                  in foreign, so i hear, ppl pay for M$ software also (and not just cd copying
                                  charges as for linux)
                                  regards
                                  kg
                                  On Friday 09 August 2002 18:27, you wrote:
                                  > Hi ,
                                  >
                                  > * <lawgon@...> wrote from a remote bunker :
                                  > > and also in india linux is far more expensive to install than M$ ...
                                  >
                                  > In what ways ?. Buying a distro, lack of technical people, lack of
                                  > support. And why specially in India.
                                  >
                                  > What I feel is Linux is costlier for people who dont wish to learn.
                                  >
                                  > cheers
                                  > dushyanth
                                • Atul Chitnis
                                  ... This thread should not be continued in the programming list. please use the non-tech list for discussions of this sort. Atul
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 10, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

                                    > redhat 7.3 cost me about 750/- for the cds (had to order from bangalore)

                                    This thread should not be continued in the programming list. please use
                                    the non-tech list for discussions of this sort.

                                    Atul
                                  • Harsha Kollaramajalu
                                    ... Linux is costlier only if you pirate other M$ software. -HK
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 10, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      >
                                      >What I feel is Linux is costlier for people who dont wish to learn.
                                      >

                                      Linux is costlier only if you pirate other M$ software.

                                      -HK
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