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Re: [lingwadeplaneta] Re: -issimo

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  • Stephen Rice
    ... That s going to be a difficult rule to remember in actual speech. I m not saying this is a common problem, just that it demonstrates that stress at least
    Message 1 of 40 , Sep 2, 2012
      On 8/31/12, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:

      > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> On 8/29/12, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:

      >> > Have you noticed phonemic stress in LdP, so that different
      >> > words/expressions
      >> > could be differentiated only through stress? Please give examples. Segun
      >> > me,
      >> > LdP does have stress but it's a phonetic feature, not phonemic.
      >>
      >> The most obvious cases involve -(i)taa. Even ignoring the pair
      >> bifootaa/bifoo ta, several prepositions should be able to use -taa
      >> with results that are ambiguous apart from stress (p.e. fontaa/fon
      >> ta). Other forms work too, as
      >>
      >> chauritaa/chauri ta
      >> feblitaa/febli ta
      >> fulitaa/fuli ta
      >> etf
      >>
      >> which pronounced with an even stress and without exaggerated breaks
      >> will sound identical.
      >
      > Those forms are possible in principle but I don't think any of them has ever
      > occured yet. Verbs derived from adjectives before "ta" are likely to use
      > -isi: chaurisi ta, feblisi ta, fulisi ta.

      That's going to be a difficult rule to remember in actual speech. I'm
      not saying this is a common problem, just that it demonstrates that
      stress at least may be phonemic in LdP, which was the question.

      > Me bu samaji kwo es "fontaa".

      "Fromness"--the quality of being from somewhere. For example, in
      Christian theology, it's a property God lacks (except by
      anthropomorphic metaphor) but created entities typically have.

      > Instead of bifootaa, bifoonesa can be used as well.

      In the grammar, -taa and -nesa are presented as having distinct albeit
      similar meanings (realitaa v. realnesa), and such abstractions would
      likely be the province of philosophers anyway, who enjoy fine
      distinctions.

      I'll add some emphasis to an earlier remark:

      >> But even as a purely phonetic feature stress, *especially when it may
      >> be irregular,* will be marked enough to make its absence hard to
      >> overlook. So speakers without this feature may find themselves
      >> stressed out.
      >
      > But can you do completely without stress?

      I try. Not watching TV helps.

      I think any language has its own
      > rhythmical organization, even those with no prominent stress.

      They do, and it's usually complex. It seems to me that there are two
      ways to achieve this in an auxlang: have simple, inviolable rules
      (Esperanto, Ido) or simply copy an existing language or group
      (Interlingua, Occidental). Such organization will arise in any case,
      but it will take longer without one of these methods as a support.

      > Understanding it is a part of learning a language. Most major languages do
      > have stress, so I think you have to give some rules for stress, lest the
      > speech is chaotic.

      But stress varies. As previously mentioned, French lacks word stress,
      which makes its native speakers easy to spot when they speak a
      language that does have word stress. This is well-known in Esperanto,
      for example, just as speakers of other languages have their own
      quirks. I don't think Mandarin has stress, and Japanese has pitch
      accent. Are rules for stress necessary? Perhaps. But in a global
      context, the simpler the rules, the better, which is why I would have
      an Esperanto-style stress rule in a worldlang.

      Steve
    • Stephen Rice
      ... That s going to be a difficult rule to remember in actual speech. I m not saying this is a common problem, just that it demonstrates that stress at least
      Message 40 of 40 , Sep 2, 2012
        On 8/31/12, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:

        > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> On 8/29/12, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:

        >> > Have you noticed phonemic stress in LdP, so that different
        >> > words/expressions
        >> > could be differentiated only through stress? Please give examples. Segun
        >> > me,
        >> > LdP does have stress but it's a phonetic feature, not phonemic.
        >>
        >> The most obvious cases involve -(i)taa. Even ignoring the pair
        >> bifootaa/bifoo ta, several prepositions should be able to use -taa
        >> with results that are ambiguous apart from stress (p.e. fontaa/fon
        >> ta). Other forms work too, as
        >>
        >> chauritaa/chauri ta
        >> feblitaa/febli ta
        >> fulitaa/fuli ta
        >> etf
        >>
        >> which pronounced with an even stress and without exaggerated breaks
        >> will sound identical.
        >
        > Those forms are possible in principle but I don't think any of them has ever
        > occured yet. Verbs derived from adjectives before "ta" are likely to use
        > -isi: chaurisi ta, feblisi ta, fulisi ta.

        That's going to be a difficult rule to remember in actual speech. I'm
        not saying this is a common problem, just that it demonstrates that
        stress at least may be phonemic in LdP, which was the question.

        > Me bu samaji kwo es "fontaa".

        "Fromness"--the quality of being from somewhere. For example, in
        Christian theology, it's a property God lacks (except by
        anthropomorphic metaphor) but created entities typically have.

        > Instead of bifootaa, bifoonesa can be used as well.

        In the grammar, -taa and -nesa are presented as having distinct albeit
        similar meanings (realitaa v. realnesa), and such abstractions would
        likely be the province of philosophers anyway, who enjoy fine
        distinctions.

        I'll add some emphasis to an earlier remark:

        >> But even as a purely phonetic feature stress, *especially when it may
        >> be irregular,* will be marked enough to make its absence hard to
        >> overlook. So speakers without this feature may find themselves
        >> stressed out.
        >
        > But can you do completely without stress?

        I try. Not watching TV helps.

        I think any language has its own
        > rhythmical organization, even those with no prominent stress.

        They do, and it's usually complex. It seems to me that there are two
        ways to achieve this in an auxlang: have simple, inviolable rules
        (Esperanto, Ido) or simply copy an existing language or group
        (Interlingua, Occidental). Such organization will arise in any case,
        but it will take longer without one of these methods as a support.

        > Understanding it is a part of learning a language. Most major languages do
        > have stress, so I think you have to give some rules for stress, lest the
        > speech is chaotic.

        But stress varies. As previously mentioned, French lacks word stress,
        which makes its native speakers easy to spot when they speak a
        language that does have word stress. This is well-known in Esperanto,
        for example, just as speakers of other languages have their own
        quirks. I don't think Mandarin has stress, and Japanese has pitch
        accent. Are rules for stress necessary? Perhaps. But in a global
        context, the simpler the rules, the better, which is why I would have
        an Esperanto-style stress rule in a worldlang.

        Steve
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