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A particle KE?

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  • lingwadeplaneta
    Salam! As you know, -ike is a suffix that derives adjectives of relation from nouns: osean — oseanike, harmonia — harmonike, historia — historike.
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 3, 2011
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      Salam!

      As you know, -ike is a suffix that derives adjectives of relation from nouns: osean — oseanike, harmonia — harmonike, historia — historike.
      Looking at some words like adike, komparike, adaptike, one has impression that they could as well be derived from verb, not only from noun, i.e., as it were,
      adike < adi + ke
      komparike < kompari + ke
      adaptike < adapti + ke

      and this makes one think about a particle KE which would derive adjectives of relation from verbs.

      kompari (compare) - komparike (related to comparing, comparative)
      vidi (see) - vidike (related to seeing, visual)
      audi (hear) - audike (related to hearing, auditory)
      shwo (speak) - shwo-ke (related to speaking)
      (I'd prefer to have a hyphen with verbs of the second type and with monosyllabic i-verbs)
      chi (eat) - chi-ke (related to eating)
      roti (rotate) - rotike (rotatory, rotary)
      kontroli (control) - kontrolike (related to controlling)
      akusi (accuse) - akusike (accusatory, accusatorial)
      festi (celebrate) - festike (celebratory)
      gusti (have taste) - gustike (gustatory)
      helpi (help) - helpike (auxiliary)

      Such adjectives are not of much use themselves, because one can always use compounding: "vidisens" instead of "vidike sens", "helpalingwa" instead of "helpike lingwa".

      But the next idea is to make the particle -KE apply to combination of words, use it for building compound adjectives from verbs where NEY would be misleading (because with verbs NEY produces participles).

      mucho-safari-ke gunsa - a work involving a lot of travelling
      mucho-shwo-ke bashan - a wordy speech

      sempre-snegi-ke meteo - a weather of perpetual snowing
      shao-pluvi-ke klima - a climate of little rain

      hao-audi-ke musika - a music that is good to hear
      hao-chi-ke fan - a food that is nice to eat
      hao-yusi-ke sikin - a handy knife
      hao-lekti-ke kitaba - a book that is easy or interesting to read

      lubi-heni-ke relata - relations of love and hatred
      kwereli-risalami-ke gama - a matrimony of quarrels and reconciliations


      ----------


      Another idea that I had is to introduce the prefix UP- meaning "additional, auxiliary, subsidiary":

      up-molya - mistress (female lover, esper. kromedzino)
      up-nam - nickname

      The prefix is Hindi's.

      ----

      Swasti!

      Dimitri
    • Stephen Rice
      I have no objection to -ke; LdP continues picking up devices for subtlety and precision that shouldn t be that hard to learn, thus preparing itself for
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 3, 2011
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        I have no objection to -ke; LdP continues picking up devices for
        subtlety and precision that shouldn't be that hard to learn, thus
        preparing itself for literary and technical use.

        As to up-, why not just use krome-, despite its slightly greater length?

        Steve
      • cafaristeir
        Salam kare Dmitry ! -ke may be a good idea, but its meaning needs to be narrowed. related to is too broad, some verbs are transitive, others are not. Maybe
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 4, 2011
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          Salam kare Dmitry !

          "-ke" may be a good idea, but its meaning needs to be narrowed. "related to" is too broad, some verbs are transitive, others are not. Maybe the right definition could be "that helps / serves to perform some actions".
          My only fear fear about "ke" is that it may create a confusion with the other adjectives in "ke" like "okeanike" and the rest (however, this risk is low, since "ke" would come after verbs, not substantives).

          "up" must come from "upaar" ! In French, we have "surnom" for "nickname".
          I think you should not use "up" for a mistress, you know, traditions are varying all around the world.... Some religions may not like that the word for "mistress" be derived from the one for "wife" ! ;-)

          Olivier


          --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "lingwadeplaneta" <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
          >
          > Salam!
          >
          > As you know, -ike is a suffix that derives adjectives of relation from nouns: osean — oseanike, harmonia — harmonike, historia — historike.
          > Looking at some words like adike, komparike, adaptike, one has impression that they could as well be derived from verb, not only from noun, i.e., as it were,
          > adike < adi + ke
          > komparike < kompari + ke
          > adaptike < adapti + ke
          >
          > and this makes one think about a particle KE which would derive adjectives of relation from verbs.
          >
          > kompari (compare) - komparike (related to comparing, comparative)
          > vidi (see) - vidike (related to seeing, visual)
          > audi (hear) - audike (related to hearing, auditory)
          > shwo (speak) - shwo-ke (related to speaking)
          > (I'd prefer to have a hyphen with verbs of the second type and with monosyllabic i-verbs)
          > chi (eat) - chi-ke (related to eating)
          > roti (rotate) - rotike (rotatory, rotary)
          > kontroli (control) - kontrolike (related to controlling)
          > akusi (accuse) - akusike (accusatory, accusatorial)
          > festi (celebrate) - festike (celebratory)
          > gusti (have taste) - gustike (gustatory)
          > helpi (help) - helpike (auxiliary)
          >
          > Such adjectives are not of much use themselves, because one can always use compounding: "vidisens" instead of "vidike sens", "helpalingwa" instead of "helpike lingwa".
          >
          > But the next idea is to make the particle -KE apply to combination of words, use it for building compound adjectives from verbs where NEY would be misleading (because with verbs NEY produces participles).
          >
          > mucho-safari-ke gunsa - a work involving a lot of travelling
          > mucho-shwo-ke bashan - a wordy speech
          >
          > sempre-snegi-ke meteo - a weather of perpetual snowing
          > shao-pluvi-ke klima - a climate of little rain
          >
          > hao-audi-ke musika - a music that is good to hear
          > hao-chi-ke fan - a food that is nice to eat
          > hao-yusi-ke sikin - a handy knife
          > hao-lekti-ke kitaba - a book that is easy or interesting to read
          >
          > lubi-heni-ke relata - relations of love and hatred
          > kwereli-risalami-ke gama - a matrimony of quarrels and reconciliations
          >
          >
          > ----------
          >
          >
          > Another idea that I had is to introduce the prefix UP- meaning "additional, auxiliary, subsidiary":
          >
          > up-molya - mistress (female lover, esper. kromedzino)
          > up-nam - nickname
          >
          > The prefix is Hindi's.
          >
          > ----
          >
          > Swasti!
          >
          > Dimitri
          >
        • lingwadeplaneta
          Bonjour cher Olivier! ... Ob yu mog fai koy exampla, dabe me samaji ke problema mog ye? ... If -ike and -ke are essentially the same (make adjectives of
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 5, 2011
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            Bonjour cher Olivier!

            --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "cafaristeir" <cafaristeir@...> wrote:
            >
            > Salam kare Dmitry !
            >
            > "-ke" may be a good idea, but its meaning needs to be narrowed. "related to" is too broad, some verbs are transitive, others are not.

            Ob yu mog fai koy exampla, dabe me samaji ke problema mog ye?

            >Maybe the right definition could be "that helps / serves to perform some actions".
            > My only fear fear about "ke" is that it may create a confusion with the other adjectives in "ke" like "okeanike" and the rest (however, this risk is low, since "ke" would come after verbs, not substantives).

            If -ike and -ke are essentially the same (make adjectives of relation), then it shouldn't matter much if the adjective is derived from noun or verb. -ke seemingly doesn't destroy anything that exists already. One can understand "helpike" as helpa+ike or as helpi+ke.
            "Helpika" can be understood as helpi+ika (helpi-kosa) or helpa+ika (helpa-kosa) or as a noun from helpike (as is known, if the adjective has the suffix –e, changing it to –a produces a noun with the meaning "something or somebody characterized with this quality").


            >
            > "up" must come from "upaar" ! In French, we have "surnom" for "nickname".

            I am not sure: in Hindi up- has also a meaning "vice, sub-"

            > I think you should not use "up" for a mistress, you know, traditions are varying all around the world.... Some religions may not like that the word for "mistress" be derived from the one for "wife" ! ;-)
            >

            In Russian they may use "podzhenit'sja" (sub+marry) for the meaning "come to have a mistress".

            Dmitri

            >
            > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "lingwadeplaneta" <lingwadeplaneta@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Salam!
            > >
            > > As you know, -ike is a suffix that derives adjectives of relation from nouns: osean — oseanike, harmonia — harmonike, historia — historike.
            > > Looking at some words like adike, komparike, adaptike, one has impression that they could as well be derived from verb, not only from noun, i.e., as it were,
            > > adike < adi + ke
            > > komparike < kompari + ke
            > > adaptike < adapti + ke
            > >
            > > and this makes one think about a particle KE which would derive adjectives of relation from verbs.
            > >
            > > kompari (compare) - komparike (related to comparing, comparative)
            > > vidi (see) - vidike (related to seeing, visual)
            > > audi (hear) - audike (related to hearing, auditory)
            > > shwo (speak) - shwo-ke (related to speaking)
            > > (I'd prefer to have a hyphen with verbs of the second type and with monosyllabic i-verbs)
            > > chi (eat) - chi-ke (related to eating)
            > > roti (rotate) - rotike (rotatory, rotary)
            > > kontroli (control) - kontrolike (related to controlling)
            > > akusi (accuse) - akusike (accusatory, accusatorial)
            > > festi (celebrate) - festike (celebratory)
            > > gusti (have taste) - gustike (gustatory)
            > > helpi (help) - helpike (auxiliary)
            > >
            > > Such adjectives are not of much use themselves, because one can always use compounding: "vidisens" instead of "vidike sens", "helpalingwa" instead of "helpike lingwa".
            > >
            > > But the next idea is to make the particle -KE apply to combination of words, use it for building compound adjectives from verbs where NEY would be misleading (because with verbs NEY produces participles).
            > >
            > > mucho-safari-ke gunsa - a work involving a lot of travelling
            > > mucho-shwo-ke bashan - a wordy speech
            > >
            > > sempre-snegi-ke meteo - a weather of perpetual snowing
            > > shao-pluvi-ke klima - a climate of little rain
            > >
            > > hao-audi-ke musika - a music that is good to hear
            > > hao-chi-ke fan - a food that is nice to eat
            > > hao-yusi-ke sikin - a handy knife
            > > hao-lekti-ke kitaba - a book that is easy or interesting to read
            > >
            > > lubi-heni-ke relata - relations of love and hatred
            > > kwereli-risalami-ke gama - a matrimony of quarrels and reconciliations
            > >
            > >
            > > ----------
            > >
            > >
            > > Another idea that I had is to introduce the prefix UP- meaning "additional, auxiliary, subsidiary":
            > >
            > > up-molya - mistress (female lover, esper. kromedzino)
            > > up-nam - nickname
            > >
            > > The prefix is Hindi's.
            > >
            > > ----
            > >
            > > Swasti!
            > >
            > > Dimitri
            > >
            >
          • Stephen Rice
            ... However, in English missus (the usual spelled-out form of Mrs. ) derives from mistress, I remember a Bible study where at least one person became
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 5, 2011
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              On 1/4/11, cafaristeir <cafaristeir@...> wrote:

              > "up" must come from "upaar" ! In French, we have "surnom" for "nickname".
              > I think you should not use "up" for a mistress, you know, traditions are
              > varying all around the world.... Some religions may not like that the word
              > for "mistress" be derived from the one for "wife" ! ;-)

              However, in English "missus" (the usual spelled-out form of "Mrs.")
              derives from "mistress," I remember a Bible study where at least one
              person became confused at the story of Hagar in Genesis 16 because
              Sarah gave her slave as a concubine to Abraham, and the translation
              referred to Sarah as Hagar's "mistress," though not by name, just
              saying "her mistress." The people who were confused thought that Hagar
              was Abraham's "mistress," so they managed to confuse Hagar and Sarah
              and misunderstand the narrative...

              Steve
            • cafaristeir
              Salam kare Dmitry ! ... About ke ; visual has a broad meaning, that can refer to all kinds of things that can be seen. While optic (from Greek optike )
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 5, 2011
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                Salam kare Dmitry !

                > > > vidi (see) - vidike (related to seeing, visual)
                > > > audi (hear) - audike (related to hearing, auditory)

                About "ke"; "visual" has a broad meaning, that can refer to all kinds of things that can be seen. While "optic" (from Greek "optike") is what helps to see (like "glasses"). I just pointed out this difference for the future use of "-ke".

                Olivier
              • Stephen Rice
                ... In English, optic can refer to the refraction of light, but it s frequently just a synonym for visual. Two lessons: 1. The precision imputed to synonym
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 5, 2011
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                  On 1/5/11, cafaristeir <cafaristeir@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> > > vidi (see) - vidike (related to seeing, visual)
                  >> > > audi (hear) - audike (related to hearing, auditory)
                  >
                  > About "ke"; "visual" has a broad meaning, that can refer to all kinds of
                  > things that can be seen. While "optic" (from Greek "optike") is what helps
                  > to see (like "glasses"). I just pointed out this difference for the future
                  > use of "-ke".
                  >
                  In English, "optic" can refer to the refraction of light, but it's
                  frequently just a synonym for "visual." Two lessons:

                  1. The precision imputed to synonym use is generally overrated. Even
                  native speakers tend to disagree about the shades of meaning, and
                  careful usage differs greatly from typical usage.

                  2. Eo is a bit more stable (in my opinion) because it tends to use
                  words rather than actual affixes: -plena, -hava, and -riĉa are less
                  likely to erode semantically than -oza. So if you want precision,
                  compound instead of affixing.

                  Steve
                • lingwadeplaneta
                  ... Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed krome can do the job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman). Attilio already proposed
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 6, 2011
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                    --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > As to up-, why not just use krome-, despite its slightly greater length?
                    >
                    > Steve
                    >

                    Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed "krome" can do the job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman).
                    Attilio already proposed to use "krome" as prefix: kromegun, kromepaga.
                    "Adi" can be used where addition is implied:
                    adi-shwo
                    adi-rasmi
                    adi-pon
                  • Stephen Rice
                    ... Good for Attilio, then. I haven t been checking the wiki regularly of late. ... Compounding is more precise, and it reduces the learning burden. In Ido you
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 6, 2011
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                      On 1/6/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed "krome" can do the
                      > job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman).
                      > Attilio already proposed to use "krome" as prefix: kromegun, kromepaga.

                      Good for Attilio, then. I haven't been checking the wiki regularly of late.

                      > "Adi" can be used where addition is implied:
                      > adi-shwo
                      > adi-rasmi
                      > adi-pon
                      >
                      Compounding is more precise, and it reduces the learning burden. In
                      Ido you have to learn a number of separate affixes; in Eo, you learn
                      roots that can be used separately or as affixes, so you have fewer
                      forms to learn and get more practice with them. (Ido strives more for
                      precision than for ease, however.)

                      Steve
                    • lingwadeplaneta
                      ... Attilio he proposi aika mucho kosa in suy blog, al tradukti lidepla-ney gramatika inu Eo:
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 11, 2011
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                        --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 1/6/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed "krome" can do the
                        > > job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman).
                        > > Attilio already proposed to use "krome" as prefix: kromegun, kromepaga.
                        >
                        > Good for Attilio, then. I haven't been checking the wiki regularly of late.

                        Attilio he proposi aika mucho kosa in suy blog, al tradukti lidepla-ney gramatika inu Eo:
                        http://www.ipernity.com/blog/34020/219853/comment/13060259#comment13060259


                        Me he mediti om worda kel wud signifi "enikas, malgree olo". Exampla fon nasion-ney lingwa:
                        Ci andro LO STESSO.
                        I'll go there ALL THE SAME.
                        SOWIESO gehe ich dorthin.
                        Ya VSYO RAVNO tuda poydu.

                        In farka-ney lingwa oni yusi kompona "olo+same" o "olo+un". Pa exampla, in romale lingwa es "sayekh" (saro+yekh, t.e. olo+un). Pa ruski oni shwo oda "vsyo ravno" (olo egale) oda "vsyo odno" (olo un).
                        Also may proposa es OLOSAM (fon OLO plus SAME):

                        Me OLOSAM go adar.
                        Kwo unkwe yu shwo, me ve zwo se olosam.

                        Oni wud mog toshi yusi it in signifa "es egale, bu es muhim":

                        Tu go adar, tu bu go adar, es olosam.

                        Hao dwadi-fin!

                        Dmitri

                        PS. Robert he pregi me tu tradukti beginsa de Stendal-ney roman "Parma-ney monastir", may tradukta es hir:
                        http://ldp.wikkii.com/wiki/Parma-ney_monastir

                        PPS. Om KROME e PLUS:

                        KROME es konekti-komo-worda kel signifi: plus-nem, kom ada (a koysa).
                        "Konekti-komo-worda" maini ke it mog funksioni i kom konekti-worda, i kom
                        komo-worda.

                        Pa exampla: "Krome chia me pren-te kahwa. Krome, me pren-te kelke bonbon."

                        PLUS mog bi kwo-worda o konekti-worda. Kom kwo-w. PLUS signifi oda plus-signa,
                        oda avantaja. Exampla: "Yur gran anubav es plus fo yu".

                        Examplas de yusi PLUS kom konekti-w.:
                        "Tri plus dwa es pet."
                        "Me pren-te chia plus kahwa."

                        In muh-ney lingwa oni mog yusi PLUS kom komo-w.:
                        "Me pren-te chia e kahwa. Plus, me pren-te kelke bonbon."
                      • Attilio Liotto
                        Chao amigas! Me zai lekti-te yur diskuta om “ -KE“ oda “-(I)KE“ e otre proposa bat til nau, me bu vev taim fo kundiskusi. Sol nau me mog aligi may
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 21, 2011
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                          Chao amigas!

                           

                          Me zai lekti-te yur diskuta om “ -KE“  oda “-(I)KE“ e otre proposa bat til nau, me bu vev taim fo kundiskusi.

                           

                          Sol nau me mog aligi may opina a yur interes-ney diskusa.

                           

                          Kan ba li in aligi-ney fail: “Disusa om partikla KE it.”            

                           

                           

                          Swasti!

                           

                          Attilio


                          2011/1/11 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...>
                           



                          --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On 1/6/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed "krome" can do the
                          > > job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman).
                          > > Attilio already proposed to use "krome" as prefix: kromegun, kromepaga.
                          >
                          > Good for Attilio, then. I haven't been checking the wiki regularly of late.

                          Attilio he proposi aika mucho kosa in suy blog, al tradukti lidepla-ney gramatika inu Eo:
                          http://www.ipernity.com/blog/34020/219853/comment/13060259#comment13060259

                          Me he mediti om worda kel wud signifi "enikas, malgree olo". Exampla fon nasion-ney lingwa:
                          Ci andro LO STESSO.
                          I'll go there ALL THE SAME.
                          SOWIESO gehe ich dorthin.
                          Ya VSYO RAVNO tuda poydu.

                          In farka-ney lingwa oni yusi kompona "olo+same" o "olo+un". Pa exampla, in romale lingwa es "sayekh" (saro+yekh, t.e. olo+un). Pa ruski oni shwo oda "vsyo ravno" (olo egale) oda "vsyo odno" (olo un).
                          Also may proposa es OLOSAM (fon OLO plus SAME):

                          Me OLOSAM go adar.
                          Kwo unkwe yu shwo, me ve zwo se olosam.

                          Oni wud mog toshi yusi it in signifa "es egale, bu es muhim":

                          Tu go adar, tu bu go adar, es olosam.

                          Hao dwadi-fin!

                          Dmitri

                          PS. Robert he pregi me tu tradukti beginsa de Stendal-ney roman "Parma-ney monastir", may tradukta es hir:
                          http://ldp.wikkii.com/wiki/Parma-ney_monastir

                          PPS. Om KROME e PLUS:

                          KROME es konekti-komo-worda kel signifi: plus-nem, kom ada (a koysa).
                          "Konekti-komo-worda" maini ke it mog funksioni i kom konekti-worda, i kom
                          komo-worda.

                          Pa exampla: "Krome chia me pren-te kahwa. Krome, me pren-te kelke bonbon."

                          PLUS mog bi kwo-worda o konekti-worda. Kom kwo-w. PLUS signifi oda plus-signa,
                          oda avantaja. Exampla: "Yur gran anubav es plus fo yu".

                          Examplas de yusi PLUS kom konekti-w.:
                          "Tri plus dwa es pet."
                          "Me pren-te chia plus kahwa."

                          In muh-ney lingwa oni mog yusi PLUS kom komo-w.:
                          "Me pren-te chia e kahwa. Plus, me pren-te kelke bonbon."


                        • lingwadeplaneta
                          Chao Attilio! Yu he skribi: A me sembli pyu hao tu yusi simple vokala -E oltaim ke oni yao formi generale relata-ney kwel-worda. Way bu yusi toshi: vide sens
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 22, 2011
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                            Chao Attilio!

                            Yu he skribi:
                            A me sembli pyu hao tu yusi simple vokala -E oltaim ke oni yao formi generale relata-ney kwel-worda.
                            Way bu yusi toshi: "vide sens" , "helpe lingwa" ?


                            Un de kausas es ke in pronunsa de mucho bu-romanike shwoer buaksenti-ney vokala –A suoni sam kom buaksenti-ney vokala –E.

                            Bat shefe kausa es ke in lidepla, pa distinta fon Eo, bu oli kwel-w. fini pa –e, bu oli kwo-w. fini pa –a etf. Por to hi sol al yusi partikla hi oni fasilem derivi relata-ney kwel-worda. Al yusi simple vokala oni tuy miti mushkila:

                            plan –> plane? bat "plane" es otre riza
                            plana -> planae? oda toshi plane?
                            taxi -> taxie? taxe?
                            Radio -> radie? Radioe?
                            Bao -> baoe? Bae?
                            Skay -> skaye?
                            Olo fa-strane. Lidepla funksioni otrem kem Eo: 1) it permiti farka-ney finika fo wordas de same klas; 2) lidepla trai bi pyu isoli-she, eviti mucho shanja de worda-forma.

                            Kompari:
                            plan - plan-ney
                            plana - plana-ney
                            taxi - taxi-ney
                            Radio -> radio-ney
                            Bao -> bao-ney
                            Skay -> skay-ney
                            Problema ga yok!


                            Swasti!

                            Dimitri



                            --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Attilio Liotto <attilio.liotto@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Chao amigas!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Me zai lekti-te yur diskuta om " -KE" oda "-(I)KE" e otre proposa bat til
                            > nau, me bu vev taim fo kundiskusi.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Sol nau me mog aligi may opina a yur interes-ney diskusa.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Kan ba li in aligi-ney fail: "Disusa om partikla KE it."
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Swasti!
                            >
                            >
                            > Attilio
                            >
                            >
                            > 2011/1/11 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...>
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com <lingwadeplaneta%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > Stephen Rice <ansrith@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > On 1/6/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed "krome" can do
                            > > the
                            > > > > job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman).
                            > > > > Attilio already proposed to use "krome" as prefix: kromegun, kromepaga.
                            > > >
                            > > > Good for Attilio, then. I haven't been checking the wiki regularly of
                            > > late.
                            > >
                            > > Attilio he proposi aika mucho kosa in suy blog, al tradukti lidepla-ney
                            > > gramatika inu Eo:
                            > > http://www.ipernity.com/blog/34020/219853/comment/13060259#comment13060259
                            > >
                            > > Me he mediti om worda kel wud signifi "enikas, malgree olo". Exampla fon
                            > > nasion-ney lingwa:
                            > > Ci andro LO STESSO.
                            > > I'll go there ALL THE SAME.
                            > > SOWIESO gehe ich dorthin.
                            > > Ya VSYO RAVNO tuda poydu.
                            > >
                            > > In farka-ney lingwa oni yusi kompona "olo+same" o "olo+un". Pa exampla, in
                            > > romale lingwa es "sayekh" (saro+yekh, t.e. olo+un). Pa ruski oni shwo oda
                            > > "vsyo ravno" (olo egale) oda "vsyo odno" (olo un).
                            > > Also may proposa es OLOSAM (fon OLO plus SAME):
                            > >
                            > > Me OLOSAM go adar.
                            > > Kwo unkwe yu shwo, me ve zwo se olosam.
                            > >
                            > > Oni wud mog toshi yusi it in signifa "es egale, bu es muhim":
                            > >
                            > > Tu go adar, tu bu go adar, es olosam.
                            > >
                            > > Hao dwadi-fin!
                            > >
                            > > Dmitri
                            > >
                            > > PS. Robert he pregi me tu tradukti beginsa de Stendal-ney roman "Parma-ney
                            > > monastir", may tradukta es hir:
                            > > http://ldp.wikkii.com/wiki/Parma-ney_monastir
                            > >
                            > > PPS. Om KROME e PLUS:
                            > >
                            > > KROME es konekti-komo-worda kel signifi: plus-nem, kom ada (a koysa).
                            > > "Konekti-komo-worda" maini ke it mog funksioni i kom konekti-worda, i kom
                            > > komo-worda.
                            > >
                            > > Pa exampla: "Krome chia me pren-te kahwa. Krome, me pren-te kelke bonbon."
                            > >
                            > > PLUS mog bi kwo-worda o konekti-worda. Kom kwo-w. PLUS signifi oda
                            > > plus-signa,
                            > > oda avantaja. Exampla: "Yur gran anubav es plus fo yu".
                            > >
                            > > Examplas de yusi PLUS kom konekti-w.:
                            > > "Tri plus dwa es pet."
                            > > "Me pren-te chia plus kahwa."
                            > >
                            > > In muh-ney lingwa oni mog yusi PLUS kom komo-w.:
                            > > "Me pren-te chia e kahwa. Plus, me pren-te kelke bonbon."
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Attilio Liotto
                            Chao amigas! Me aligi hir may jawaba a laste mesaja de Dmitri. Kan ba fail: Diskusa om partikla ke it. 2 Swasti Attilio 2011/1/22 lingwadeplaneta
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 25, 2011
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                              Chao amigas!

                              Me aligi hir may jawaba a laste mesaja de Dmitri.

                              Kan ba fail: "Diskusa om partikla "ke" it. 2

                              Swasti  Attilio


                              2011/1/22 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...>
                               



                              Chao Attilio!

                              Yu he skribi:
                              A me sembli pyu hao tu yusi simple vokala -E oltaim ke oni yao formi generale relata-ney kwel-worda.
                              Way bu yusi toshi: "vide sens" , "helpe lingwa" ?

                              Un de kausas es ke in pronunsa de mucho bu-romanike shwoer buaksenti-ney vokala –A suoni sam kom buaksenti-ney vokala –E.

                              Bat shefe kausa es ke in lidepla, pa distinta fon Eo, bu oli kwel-w. fini pa –e, bu oli kwo-w. fini pa –a etf. Por to hi sol al yusi partikla hi oni fasilem derivi relata-ney kwel-worda. Al yusi simple vokala oni tuy miti mushkila:

                              plan –> plane? bat "plane" es otre riza
                              plana -> planae? oda toshi plane?
                              taxi -> taxie? taxe?
                              Radio -> radie? Radioe?
                              Bao -> baoe? Bae?
                              Skay -> skaye?
                              Olo fa-strane. Lidepla funksioni otrem kem Eo: 1) it permiti farka-ney finika fo wordas de same klas; 2) lidepla trai bi pyu isoli-she, eviti mucho shanja de worda-forma.

                              Kompari:
                              plan - plan-ney
                              plana - plana-ney
                              taxi - taxi-ney
                              Radio -> radio-ney
                              Bao -> bao-ney
                              Skay -> skay-ney
                              Problema ga yok!

                              Swasti!

                              Dimitri



                              --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Attilio Liotto <attilio.liotto@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Chao amigas!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Me zai lekti-te yur diskuta om " -KE" oda "-(I)KE" e otre proposa bat til
                              > nau, me bu vev taim fo kundiskusi.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sol nau me mog aligi may opina a yur interes-ney diskusa.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Kan ba li in aligi-ney fail: "Disusa om partikla KE it."
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Swasti!
                              >
                              >
                              > Attilio
                              >
                              >
                              > 2011/1/11 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...>
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com <lingwadeplaneta%40yahoogroups.com>,

                              > > Stephen Rice <ansrith@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > On 1/6/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed "krome" can do
                              > > the
                              > > > > job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman).
                              > > > > Attilio already proposed to use "krome" as prefix: kromegun, kromepaga.
                              > > >
                              > > > Good for Attilio, then. I haven't been checking the wiki regularly of
                              > > late.
                              > >
                              > > Attilio he proposi aika mucho kosa in suy blog, al tradukti lidepla-ney
                              > > gramatika inu Eo:
                              > > http://www.ipernity.com/blog/34020/219853/comment/13060259#comment13060259
                              > >
                              > > Me he mediti om worda kel wud signifi "enikas, malgree olo". Exampla fon
                              > > nasion-ney lingwa:
                              > > Ci andro LO STESSO.
                              > > I'll go there ALL THE SAME.
                              > > SOWIESO gehe ich dorthin.
                              > > Ya VSYO RAVNO tuda poydu.
                              > >
                              > > In farka-ney lingwa oni yusi kompona "olo+same" o "olo+un". Pa exampla, in
                              > > romale lingwa es "sayekh" (saro+yekh, t.e. olo+un). Pa ruski oni shwo oda
                              > > "vsyo ravno" (olo egale) oda "vsyo odno" (olo un).
                              > > Also may proposa es OLOSAM (fon OLO plus SAME):
                              > >
                              > > Me OLOSAM go adar.
                              > > Kwo unkwe yu shwo, me ve zwo se olosam.
                              > >
                              > > Oni wud mog toshi yusi it in signifa "es egale, bu es muhim":
                              > >
                              > > Tu go adar, tu bu go adar, es olosam.
                              > >
                              > > Hao dwadi-fin!
                              > >
                              > > Dmitri
                              > >
                              > > PS. Robert he pregi me tu tradukti beginsa de Stendal-ney roman "Parma-ney
                              > > monastir", may tradukta es hir:
                              > > http://ldp.wikkii.com/wiki/Parma-ney_monastir
                              > >
                              > > PPS. Om KROME e PLUS:
                              > >
                              > > KROME es konekti-komo-worda kel signifi: plus-nem, kom ada (a koysa).
                              > > "Konekti-komo-worda" maini ke it mog funksioni i kom konekti-worda, i kom
                              > > komo-worda.
                              > >
                              > > Pa exampla: "Krome chia me pren-te kahwa. Krome, me pren-te kelke bonbon."
                              > >
                              > > PLUS mog bi kwo-worda o konekti-worda. Kom kwo-w. PLUS signifi oda
                              > > plus-signa,
                              > > oda avantaja. Exampla: "Yur gran anubav es plus fo yu".
                              > >
                              > > Examplas de yusi PLUS kom konekti-w.:
                              > > "Tri plus dwa es pet."
                              > > "Me pren-te chia plus kahwa."
                              > >
                              > > In muh-ney lingwa oni mog yusi PLUS kom komo-w.:
                              > > "Me pren-te chia e kahwa. Plus, me pren-te kelke bonbon."
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >


                            • lingwadeplaneta
                              Chao Attilio! Yu es prave ke ney gei yusi muy oftem. Me he zwo diagrama de zuy ofte worda in sit chapta-ki de rakonta om Raterford, e oni mog vidi klarem ke
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 28, 2011
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                                Chao Attilio!

                                Yu es prave ke "ney" gei yusi muy oftem. Me he zwo diagrama de zuy ofte worda in sit chapta-ki de rakonta om Raterford, e oni mog vidi klarem ke NEY es zuy gran, also zuy ofte:

                                http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/3056518/Lidepla%3A_marjen_Raterford_she_maoris

                                Yedoh me bu es serte ke to es problema. "ney" es helpi-worda, por to hi it es ofte. Den simile worda in han-lingwa (kel toshi derivi kwel-worda fon kwo-w. e zwo-w.) oni toshi miti hampi in kada frasa. In inglish, hampi in kada frasa oni miti THE, yedoh nulwan shwo ke inglish es tro repetike.

                                Oftem oni mog fai sin "ney", pa exampla
                                jen-ney masu => jen-masu
                                helpa-ney lingwa = >helpa-lingwa


                                Om vide* e helpe*, me vidi un problema: kwo-worda derivi-ney fon "helpe", mus bi konkrete (bu abstrakte), it mus maini un jen o kosa kel es helpe* (helpike):
                                sam kom
                                jamile => jamila (koywan jamile),
                                helpe => helpa (koywan oda koysa kel es helpike).
                                Yedoh pa fakta "helpa" es abstrakte nosion (akta o resulta de helping).

                                Por to, si oni shuki pyu kurte alternativa fo –ney, simple "-e" bu godi. Wud treba inventi nove finika, pa exampla –ai (si derivi fon kwo-w.):
                                helpa => helpai (kom kurtisa de "helpa-ney")
                                e, pa exampla, -ei (si derivi fon zwo-w.):
                                vidi => videi (kom kurtisa de "vidi-ney")

                                Yedoh segun me se wud komplikisi dela. Han-shwoer bu wud shwo danke a nu!

                                Swasti!

                                Dmitri




                                --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Attilio Liotto <attilio.liotto@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Chao amigas!
                                >
                                > Me aligi hir may jawaba a laste mesaja de Dmitri.
                                >
                                > Kan ba fail: "Diskusa om partikla "ke" it. 2
                                >
                                > Swasti Attilio
                                >
                                >
                                > 2011/1/22 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...>
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Chao Attilio!
                                > >
                                > > Yu he skribi:
                                > > A me sembli pyu hao tu yusi simple vokala -E oltaim ke oni yao formi
                                > > generale relata-ney kwel-worda.
                                > > Way bu yusi toshi: "vide sens" , "helpe lingwa" ?
                                > >
                                > > Un de kausas es ke in pronunsa de mucho bu-romanike shwoer buaksenti-ney
                                > > vokala –A suoni sam kom buaksenti-ney vokala –E.
                                > >
                                > > Bat shefe kausa es ke in lidepla, pa distinta fon Eo, bu oli kwel-w. fini
                                > > pa –e, bu oli kwo-w. fini pa –a etf. Por to hi sol al yusi partikla hi oni
                                > > fasilem derivi relata-ney kwel-worda. Al yusi simple vokala oni tuy miti
                                > > mushkila:
                                > >
                                > > plan –> plane? bat "plane" es otre riza
                                > > plana -> planae? oda toshi plane?
                                > > taxi -> taxie? taxe?
                                > > Radio -> radie? Radioe?
                                > > Bao -> baoe? Bae?
                                > > Skay -> skaye?
                                > > Olo fa-strane. Lidepla funksioni otrem kem Eo: 1) it permiti farka-ney
                                > > finika fo wordas de same klas; 2) lidepla trai bi pyu isoli-she, eviti mucho
                                > > shanja de worda-forma.
                                > >
                                > > Kompari:
                                > > plan - plan-ney
                                > > plana - plana-ney
                                > > taxi - taxi-ney
                                > > Radio -> radio-ney
                                > > Bao -> bao-ney
                                > > Skay -> skay-ney
                                > > Problema ga yok!
                                > >
                                > > Swasti!
                                > >
                                > > Dimitri
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com <lingwadeplaneta%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > > Attilio Liotto <attilio.liotto@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Chao amigas!
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Me zai lekti-te yur diskuta om " -KE" oda "-(I)KE" e otre proposa bat til
                                > > > nau, me bu vev taim fo kundiskusi.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Sol nau me mog aligi may opina a yur interes-ney diskusa.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Kan ba li in aligi-ney fail: "Disusa om partikla KE it."
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Swasti!
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Attilio
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > 2011/1/11 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@>
                                > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com<lingwadeplaneta%40yahoogroups.com><lingwadeplaneta%
                                > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > >
                                > > > > Stephen Rice <ansrith@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > On 1/6/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Having thought about it for some time, looks like indeed "krome"
                                > > can do
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > > job. Kromemolya (kromegina), kromemursha (kromeman).
                                > > > > > > Attilio already proposed to use "krome" as prefix: kromegun,
                                > > kromepaga.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Good for Attilio, then. I haven't been checking the wiki regularly of
                                > > > > late.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Attilio he proposi aika mucho kosa in suy blog, al tradukti lidepla-ney
                                > > > > gramatika inu Eo:
                                > > > >
                                > > http://www.ipernity.com/blog/34020/219853/comment/13060259#comment13060259
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Me he mediti om worda kel wud signifi "enikas, malgree olo". Exampla
                                > > fon
                                > > > > nasion-ney lingwa:
                                > > > > Ci andro LO STESSO.
                                > > > > I'll go there ALL THE SAME.
                                > > > > SOWIESO gehe ich dorthin.
                                > > > > Ya VSYO RAVNO tuda poydu.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > In farka-ney lingwa oni yusi kompona "olo+same" o "olo+un". Pa exampla,
                                > > in
                                > > > > romale lingwa es "sayekh" (saro+yekh, t.e. olo+un). Pa ruski oni shwo
                                > > oda
                                > > > > "vsyo ravno" (olo egale) oda "vsyo odno" (olo un).
                                > > > > Also may proposa es OLOSAM (fon OLO plus SAME):
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Me OLOSAM go adar.
                                > > > > Kwo unkwe yu shwo, me ve zwo se olosam.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Oni wud mog toshi yusi it in signifa "es egale, bu es muhim":
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Tu go adar, tu bu go adar, es olosam.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hao dwadi-fin!
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Dmitri
                                > > > >
                                > > > > PS. Robert he pregi me tu tradukti beginsa de Stendal-ney roman
                                > > "Parma-ney
                                > > > > monastir", may tradukta es hir:
                                > > > > http://ldp.wikkii.com/wiki/Parma-ney_monastir
                                > > > >
                                > > > > PPS. Om KROME e PLUS:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > KROME es konekti-komo-worda kel signifi: plus-nem, kom ada (a koysa).
                                > > > > "Konekti-komo-worda" maini ke it mog funksioni i kom konekti-worda, i
                                > > kom
                                > > > > komo-worda.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Pa exampla: "Krome chia me pren-te kahwa. Krome, me pren-te kelke
                                > > bonbon."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > PLUS mog bi kwo-worda o konekti-worda. Kom kwo-w. PLUS signifi oda
                                > > > > plus-signa,
                                > > > > oda avantaja. Exampla: "Yur gran anubav es plus fo yu".
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Examplas de yusi PLUS kom konekti-w.:
                                > > > > "Tri plus dwa es pet."
                                > > > > "Me pren-te chia plus kahwa."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > In muh-ney lingwa oni mog yusi PLUS kom komo-w.:
                                > > > > "Me pren-te chia e kahwa. Plus, me pren-te kelke bonbon."
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Stephen Rice
                                I can sympathize with Attilio s euphonic concerns. One of the minor negatives of LdP is that -ney (and a few other -ey forms) is frequent enough to make a
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jan 29, 2011
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                                  I can sympathize with Attilio's euphonic concerns. One of the minor
                                  negatives of LdP is that -ney (and a few other -ey forms) is frequent
                                  enough to make a native anglophone think of Pig Latin:
                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Latin Diphthongs are simply more
                                  conspicuous than simple vowels, so -ney stands out. That's good in one
                                  sense: we don't want a major particle to go unnoticed. But one of the
                                  common esthetic objections to Eo is its abundance of diphthongs,
                                  especially aj and oj, and -ney also lengthens words a bit. (Also note
                                  that English "the" doesn't stand out so much: the overall sound is
                                  fairly soft and inconspicuous.)

                                  I'm not happy about relying on stress, though, as Attilio's -ee
                                  requires. That would interfere with poems and songs in particular,
                                  where normal stress may be modified.

                                  Meanwhile, Dmitry's suggestion of -ai and -ei would address the
                                  metrical problems, but

                                  1. They're diphthongs again, which is a bit annoying

                                  2. As he mentions, they increase the complexity a bit, if only because
                                  the connection with -ney isn't obvious.

                                  On the whole, the status quo is probably acceptable unless/until
                                  someone gets a better idea.

                                  Steve
                                • lingwadeplaneta
                                  ... That s all true, although much depends on the point of view of course. I am pretty sure that for a native Chinese diphtongs in LdP won t seem too many. I d
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jan 30, 2011
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                                    --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I can sympathize with Attilio's euphonic concerns. One of the minor
                                    > negatives of LdP is that -ney (and a few other -ey forms) is frequent
                                    > enough to make a native anglophone think of Pig Latin:
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_Latin Diphthongs are simply more
                                    > conspicuous than simple vowels, so -ney stands out. That's good in one
                                    > sense: we don't want a major particle to go unnoticed. But one of the
                                    > common esthetic objections to Eo is its abundance of diphthongs,
                                    > especially aj and oj, and -ney also lengthens words a bit. (Also note
                                    > that English "the" doesn't stand out so much: the overall sound is
                                    > fairly soft and inconspicuous.)
                                    >
                                    > I'm not happy about relying on stress, though, as Attilio's -ee
                                    > requires. That would interfere with poems and songs in particular,
                                    > where normal stress may be modified.
                                    >
                                    > Meanwhile, Dmitry's suggestion of -ai and -ei would address the
                                    > metrical problems, but
                                    >
                                    > 1. They're diphthongs again, which is a bit annoying
                                    >
                                    > 2. As he mentions, they increase the complexity a bit, if only because
                                    > the connection with -ney isn't obvious.
                                    >
                                    > On the whole, the status quo is probably acceptable unless/until
                                    > someone gets a better idea.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >

                                    That's all true, although much depends on the point of view of course. I am pretty sure that for a native Chinese diphtongs in LdP won't seem too many. I'd like to make an experiment and simply count number of all -ai, -oi, -ei and -ui in a given text in LdP, Esperanto, and English, and some other language. That must be interesting to compare.

                                    Meanwhile, thinking about Attilio's ideas again, I am beginning to look more seriously on the possibility to shorten things a little bit in the following way:
                                    for non-monosyllabic words
                                    ...a-ney => ...ei
                                    ...i-ney => ...ei

                                    ...a-nem => ...em
                                    ...i-nem => ...em
                                    ...i-shem => ...em

                                    (even ...i-she => ...ei is possible sometimes but often ambiguous)

                                    Examples:

                                    abrevi-ney => abrevei
                                    abrevi-nem => abrevem

                                    amiga-ney => amigei
                                    amiga-nem => amigem

                                    danki-shem => dankem

                                    fatigi-ney => fatigei
                                    fatigi-nem => fatigem

                                    jivei, morbei, mortei

                                    atentei, atentem

                                    defektei

                                    nodependei

                                    distintei

                                    farkei, farkem

                                    faktei, faktem

                                    dusfamei

                                    char-etajei dom

                                    goldei

                                    hao-gustei

                                    ofnei, klosei

                                    With Russian words such a short form sometimes sounds almost like in Russian:
                                    jivei (jiva-ney), lubei (lubi-ney), myatei (myati-ney)

                                    This doesn't increase the number of -ei's.


                                    Sure, treba dumi pyu.
                                    Perhaps ...i-ney => ...ei isn't a good idea.

                                    At one point we had already forms "amigem, fatigem, faktem" but then dropped them in the name of uniformity.

                                    Dmitri
                                  • lingwadeplaneta
                                    ... Let s go. Here s the beginning of Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. We are counting the general amount of [ai], [ei], [oi], [ui]. 1. English This is the story of the great
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jan 30, 2011
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                                      --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "lingwadeplaneta" <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                      > I'd like to make an experiment and simply count number of all -ai, -oi, -ei and -ui in a given text in LdP, Esperanto, and English, and some other language. That must be interesting to compare.

                                      Let's go. Here's the beginning of Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. We are counting the general amount of [ai], [ei], [oi], [ui].

                                      1. English

                                      This is the story of the great [ei]
                                      war that Rikki-tikki-tavi fought single-handed, through the bath-rooms of the big bungalow in Segowlee cantonment. Darzee, the Tailorbird [ei]
                                      , helped him, and Chuchundra, the musk-rat, who never comes out into the middle of the floor, but always [ei]
                                      creeps round by [ai]
                                      the wall, gave [ei]
                                      him advice [ai]
                                      , but Rikki-tikki did the real fighting.[ai]

                                      Altogether 7: 4 ei's and 3 ai's.
                                      (and it has also other diphthongs)


                                      2. Lidepla

                                      Es historia om gro-gwer ke Rikki-Tikki-Tavi fai [ai]
                                      ga sole, in banishambas de un gran dom in Segoli vilaja. Darsi, suterfaula, helpi a ta, e Chuchundra, miskarata kel nulves go tra mida de poda bat sempre kripi bli mur, fai [ai]
                                      konsila a ta. Yedoh vere batala gei [ei] fai [ai] bay [ai] Rikki-Tikki.

                                      Altogether 5: 1 ei and 4 ai's.


                                      3. Esperanto

                                      Jen la historio pri la granda milito, kiun Rikki-Tikki-Tavi tute sola entreprenis, tra la banejoj [ei] [oi]
                                      de la granda bangalo en kazerno Segoli. Darzi, la tajlorbirdo [ai], helpis lin, kaj [ai]
                                      Ĉuĉundra, la miogalo, kiu neniam aperas meze de la planko sed ĉiam rampas apud la muro, konsilis lin, sed la veran bataladon faris Rikki-Tikki.

                                      Altogether 4: 1 ei, 1 oi, 2 ai's
                                      (it has also [iu], [ia] with stressed "i" but that doesn't interest us now)


                                      Now let's take the next paragraph.

                                      1. English

                                      He was a mongoose, rather like [ai]
                                      a little cat in his fur and his tail [ei]
                                      , but quite like [ai] [ai]
                                      a weasel in his head and his habits. His eyes [ai]
                                      and the end of his restless nose were pink. He could scratch himself anywhere he pleased with any leg, front or back, that he chose to use. He could fluff up his tail [ei]
                                      till it looked like [ai]
                                      a bottle brush, and his war cry [ai]
                                      as he scuttled through the long grass was: Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-chk!

                                      Altogether 8: 6 ai's and 2 ei's


                                      2. Lidepla

                                      Ta es mangusta, bay [ai]
                                      farwa e kauda simili kota-ki, bat bay [ai]
                                      kapa e abyas simili laska. Suy okos e nok de suy [ui]
                                      sinfatiga-ney [ei]
                                      nos es rose. Ta mog skrapi swa enilok bay [ai]
                                      eni pata, avane o bake, kwel unkwe ta yao yusi. Ta mog puhisi kauda til ke it simili botelabrash, e suy [ui]
                                      batalakraisa al ke ta flai [ai]
                                      -lopi tra longe herba es Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-chk!

                                      Altogether 7: 4 ai's, 1 ei and 2 [ui]


                                      3. Esperanto

                                      Li estis mungo, iom simila pro felo kaj [ai]
                                      vosto al kateto, sed kape kaj [ai]
                                      kutime musteleca. Rozkoloraj [ai]
                                      estis liaj [ai]
                                      okuloj [ai] kaj [ai]
                                      la pinto de lia maltrankvila nazo; li povis skrapi al si ie ajn [ai], laŭplaĉe, per iu ajn [ai]
                                      kruro, aŭ antaŭa aŭ malantaŭa, kiun li elektis uzi; li povis hirtigi la voston ĝis ĝi similis al kalistemo, kaj [ai]
                                      lia militokrio, dum li trakuris la longan herbaron, estis: "Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-tĉk!"

                                      Altogether 9, all ai's.

                                      To sum up, in two first paragraphs
                                      English - 15
                                      Lidepla - 12
                                      Esperanto - 13

                                      Preliminary conclusion: Lidepla doesn't have more i-glides than English or Esperanto.
                                    • Stephen Rice
                                      I m not sure I d agree with the methodology. The diphthongs in Eo that are considered problematic are final and either open syllables or closed only with
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jan 30, 2011
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                                        I'm not sure I'd agree with the methodology. The diphthongs in Eo that
                                        are considered problematic are final and either open syllables or
                                        closed only with -n--not only plurals but kaj and the various -aŭ
                                        words. (Also, they tend to form chains such as ĉiuj tiuj.)

                                        So my counts would be

                                        1. Eng - 1 (by)
                                        Eo - 2 (banejoj, kaj--I'm only counting "banejoj" once, though twice
                                        might be reasonable)
                                        LdP - 5 (same as your list)

                                        2. Eng - 1 (cry)
                                        Eo - 7 (I'm not sure about counting "ajn"; perhaps I should, since
                                        it's usually somewhat stressed and tends to follow a vowel chain.If I
                                        count "ajn" I should probably also count "eyes," which seems
                                        counter-intuitive to me. Also, you count "okuloj" as "ai" for some
                                        reason.)
                                        LdP - 7 (same as your list)

                                        I think the reason the LdP diphthongs stand out for me, at least, is
                                        that they aren't internal. This is why Pig Latin is so striking: the
                                        diphthong is final, which is not unknown in English--there are many
                                        monosyllables in -ay--but words in -ay aren't common enough to cluster
                                        without some work. In LdP, bai, fai, and ney are common enough to be
                                        conspicuous.

                                        Perhaps that's what disturbs my ear: not the diphthongs so much as the
                                        high-frequency words that use them--a problem Eo also has.

                                        Steve
                                      • lingwadeplaneta
                                        ... Well, that s the difference between languages: Lidepla has little internal diphthongs, which is different from English but close to Spanish or Russian; at
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jan 31, 2011
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                                          --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I'm not sure I'd agree with the methodology. The diphthongs in Eo that
                                          > are considered problematic are final and either open syllables or
                                          > closed only with -n--not only plurals but kaj and the various -aÅ­
                                          > words. (Also, they tend to form chains such as ĉiuj tiuj.)
                                          >
                                          > So my counts would be
                                          >
                                          > 1. Eng - 1 (by)
                                          > Eo - 2 (banejoj, kaj--I'm only counting "banejoj" once, though twice
                                          > might be reasonable)
                                          > LdP - 5 (same as your list)
                                          >
                                          > 2. Eng - 1 (cry)
                                          > Eo - 7 (I'm not sure about counting "ajn"; perhaps I should, since
                                          > it's usually somewhat stressed and tends to follow a vowel chain.If I
                                          > count "ajn" I should probably also count "eyes," which seems
                                          > counter-intuitive to me. Also, you count "okuloj" as "ai" for some
                                          > reason.)
                                          > LdP - 7 (same as your list)
                                          >
                                          > I think the reason the LdP diphthongs stand out for me, at least, is
                                          > that they aren't internal. This is why Pig Latin is so striking: the
                                          > diphthong is final, which is not unknown in English--there are many
                                          > monosyllables in -ay--but words in -ay aren't common enough to cluster
                                          > without some work. In LdP, bai, fai, and ney are common enough to be
                                          > conspicuous.
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps that's what disturbs my ear: not the diphthongs so much as the
                                          > high-frequency words that use them--a problem Eo also has.
                                          >

                                          Well, that's the difference between languages: Lidepla has little internal diphthongs, which is different from English but close to Spanish or Russian; at the same time it has monosyllabic (mostly) words with open diphthongs, some of them grammatical words. In the text that we have examined all the [ai], [ei], [ui] come from *monosyllabic* words fai, gei, bay, -ney, suy and flai. I think there is a point in them being diphthongs because so they stand out better (as you have written about -ney earlier). Such choice wasn't arbitrary, because we've been speaking out what we were creating. I remember at least 2 episodes when me and Anastasia discussed -ney vs -na and gei vs ge and we preferred the first because they made the speech parse easier.
                                          Realizing this now, I am becoming reluctant to produce words like abrevei or respektei. They are not in line with LdP. It's rather an Esperanto style to have multisyllable words ending in open diphthongs like banejoj, rozkoloraj, okuloj (btw i've written [ai] after okuloj just by mistake).

                                          Dmitri
                                        • Stephen Rice
                                          ... Spanish has plenty of diphthongs; they re just different diphthongs, mostly ie and ue. ... They simplify resolution, but they do so by being obtrusive. Eo
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jan 31, 2011
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                                            On 1/31/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> I'm not sure I'd agree with the methodology. The diphthongs in Eo that
                                            >> are considered problematic are final and either open syllables or
                                            >> closed only with -n--not only plurals but kaj and the various -aÅ­
                                            >> words. (Also, they tend to form chains such as ĉiuj tiuj.)
                                            >>
                                            ...
                                            >> I think the reason the LdP diphthongs stand out for me, at least, is
                                            >> that they aren't internal. This is why Pig Latin is so striking: the
                                            >> diphthong is final, which is not unknown in English--there are many
                                            >> monosyllables in -ay--but words in -ay aren't common enough to cluster
                                            >> without some work. In LdP, bai, fai, and ney are common enough to be
                                            >> conspicuous.
                                            >>
                                            >> Perhaps that's what disturbs my ear: not the diphthongs so much as the
                                            >> high-frequency words that use them--a problem Eo also has.
                                            >
                                            > Well, that's the difference between languages: Lidepla has little internal
                                            > diphthongs, which is different from English but close to Spanish or Russian;

                                            Spanish has plenty of diphthongs; they're just different diphthongs,
                                            mostly ie and ue.

                                            > at the same time it has monosyllabic (mostly) words with open diphthongs,
                                            > some of them grammatical words. In the text that we have examined all the
                                            > [ai], [ei], [ui] come from *monosyllabic* words fai, gei, bay, -ney, suy and
                                            > flai. I think there is a point in them being diphthongs because so they
                                            > stand out better (as you have written about -ney earlier). Such choice
                                            > wasn't arbitrary, because we've been speaking out what we were creating. I
                                            > remember at least 2 episodes when me and Anastasia discussed -ney vs -na and
                                            > gei vs ge and we preferred the first because they made the speech parse
                                            > easier.

                                            They simplify resolution, but they do so by being obtrusive. Eo
                                            -aj(n)/-oj(n) aid in resolution too, and they are considered
                                            problematic.

                                            > Realizing this now, I am becoming reluctant to produce words like abrevei or
                                            > respektei. They are not in line with LdP. It's rather an Esperanto style to
                                            > have multisyllable words ending in open diphthongs like banejoj, rozkoloraj,
                                            > okuloj (btw i've written [ai] after okuloj just by mistake).
                                            >
                                            I've never understood the reasoning, "The most successful X does Y, so
                                            our X will avoid doing Y." It seems counter-intuitive. On the other
                                            hand, -ney is likely to cliticize, making it equivalent to an Eo
                                            ending.

                                            These aren't fatal issues. But they are the kind of things that will
                                            be listed as negatives by people who describe and discuss
                                            auxlangs--reviewers and critics. It's worthwhile to prepare for
                                            foreseeable criticisms.

                                            Steve
                                          • lingwadeplaneta
                                            ... Diphthongs is a widespread phenomenon, they are especially abundant in Chinese and English. It would be simply unnatural (if not impossible at all) to go
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jan 31, 2011
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                                              --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Well, that's the difference between languages: Lidepla has little internal
                                              > > diphthongs, which is different from English but close to Spanish or Russian;
                                              >
                                              > Spanish has plenty of diphthongs; they're just different diphthongs,
                                              > mostly ie and ue.
                                              >

                                              Diphthongs is a widespread phenomenon, they are especially abundant in Chinese and English. It would be simply unnatural (if not impossible at all) to go without diphthongs in a language based on most spoken languages (Chinese and English thus included). So Lidepla understandably has a good share of diphthongs, although in total not so much as in English, using them mostly in monosyllabic words for help in resolution, as you put it. Not a bad picture, I think.


                                              > > at the same time it has monosyllabic (mostly) words with open diphthongs,
                                              > > some of them grammatical words. In the text that we have examined all the
                                              > > [ai], [ei], [ui] come from *monosyllabic* words fai, gei, bay, -ney, suy and
                                              > > flai. I think there is a point in them being diphthongs because so they
                                              > > stand out better (as you have written about -ney earlier). Such choice
                                              > > wasn't arbitrary, because we've been speaking out what we were creating. I
                                              > > remember at least 2 episodes when me and Anastasia discussed -ney vs -na and
                                              > > gei vs ge and we preferred the first because they made the speech parse
                                              > > easier.
                                              >
                                              > They simplify resolution, but they do so by being obtrusive.

                                              Some will agree obtrusiveness, some won't, but simplification of resolution is something that justifies them. [ai], [ei] make the syllable a bit longer, thus creating a small pause before the next word. Pauses are important for parsing.
                                              I must say that I myself don't pronounce -ney exactly as ['nei], but rather as [n@i] which is understandable because it isn't stressed. Unfortunately there is no way to have a letter for shwa, otherwise there wouldn't be the wrong association with Pig Latin (I guess in Pig Latin ei's are deliberately stressed).

                                              I've heard from people more than once that Lidepla has its own unique taste, and I think that gei, bay, ney contribute to it. They sort of communicate that it is a system of its own, although it evidently mixes European and other roots.


                                              Eo
                                              > -aj(n)/-oj(n) aid in resolution too, and they are considered
                                              > problematic.
                                              >
                                              > > Realizing this now, I am becoming reluctant to produce words like abrevei or
                                              > > respektei. They are not in line with LdP. It's rather an Esperanto style to
                                              > > have multisyllable words ending in open diphthongs like banejoj, rozkoloraj,
                                              > > okuloj (btw i've written [ai] after okuloj just by mistake).
                                              > >
                                              > I've never understood the reasoning, "The most successful X does Y, so
                                              > our X will avoid doing Y." It seems counter-intuitive.


                                              I didn't reason like that. It's about continuity.


                                              On the other
                                              > hand, -ney is likely to cliticize, making it equivalent to an Eo
                                              > ending.

                                              The difference being that in Eo ending you should produce a clear "a" or "o" while in -ney you are recommended to make a shwa sound. Maybe we explicitly recommend it?


                                              >
                                              > These aren't fatal issues. But they are the kind of things that will
                                              > be listed as negatives by people who describe and discuss
                                              > auxlangs--reviewers and critics. It's worthwhile to prepare for
                                              > foreseeable criticisms.
                                              >
                                              > Steve
                                              >

                                              Right. I've written in the beginning my understanding of the situation.

                                              Dmitri
                                            • Attilio Liotto
                                              Kare amigas, Me bu es kontra diftongas, bat sol kontra suy tro ofte yusa. Krome, bu oli diftonga sam pesi, e toshi bu oli vakala: “I”, “E” es pyu leve
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 2, 2011
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                                                Kare amigas,

                                                 

                                                Me bu es kontra diftongas, bat sol kontra suy tro ofte yusa.

                                                Krome, bu oli diftonga sam pesi, e toshi bu oli vakala:

                                                “I”, “E” es pyu leve kem “A”, “A” es pyu leve kem “O”, e “O” es pyu leve kem “U”. Also, si oni zwo texta kun same kwantitaa de I, E, A, O, U; lekti-shem sey texta, “I”, “E” sembli meno kem “A”, e “A” sembli meno kem “O” e “U”.

                                                 

                                                Same kosa es om diftongas:

                                                YE, YA, YO, YU; es pyu leve kem EY, AY, OY, UY.

                                                 En nova planlingwa kun munda-ney aspira, oni mus kaulu se.

                                                 

                                                Tu kompari kwantitaa de diftonga in esperanto, inglish, e lidepla, es “trompise” politika bikos:

                                                 

                                                1)    Inglish bu es lingua “munde” elekti-ney, pa suy jamilitaa, bat forsi-ney dank a gwer-ney jita e lo zuy gran teknologi pa sey lingwa.

                                                 

                                                2)    Esperanto bu janmi-te kun aspira bikam lingwa de planeta, bat kun aspira bikam komunkitul fo simple jen.

                                                Problemas pri finika “-OJ”, “AJ”, “AŬ”, e wordas “TIUJ”, “KIUJ” apari jo pa beginsa. Om “TIUJ”, “KIUJ” pluri texta he chu, sub nam “Du malsanoj en Esperanto”.

                                                Bat Zamenhof a oli sey kritika jawabi:

                                                “Mi faris lingvon por simplaj personoj; la elito jam havas internacian lingvon, ĝi estas la latina”. (tiutempe tio veris).

                                                 

                                                “La netuŝebla Fundamento de Esperanto” goli ya ke esperanto resti ba simple komunikitul por simple jenes.

                                                 

                                                Me haishi dumi ke lingwa kel aspiri bikam porti-sha de munda-ney kultura mus hev “sinonime” expresas bu sam longe.

                                                 

                                                Me toshi yao adi ke Asia jen muy pri esperanto-ney finikas –O, -A, -E, -I.

                                                Fo Asia-ney  esperantistas, Zamenhof bin un “genia” sol pro to.

                                                Ver ke asia-ney esperantista, nau es pyu entsiasma-ney kem europa-ney, bat, om to oni mus idyen dumi.

                                                Kan ba bak sey linka >  http://www.ipernity.com/home/rozoqiuju8

                                                E judi ba yu selfa.  

                                                 

                                                *

                                                Naŭ nu rilai a nuy liepla finikas.

                                                Walaa may dumas om partikla NEY e lo similes:

                                                 

                                                ... A-NEY es hao alternativa a …-E  (it. Aggettivo)


                                                ... A-NEM es hao alternativa a …–EM  (it. avverbio)


                                                (... I-NESH implasi ... I-NEY)


                                                ... I-NESH es hao alternativa a ... –ESH (it. Participio passivo)

                                                ... I-NEM es hao alternativa a …–EM (it. Gerundio o avverbio)


                                                ... I-SHE es hao alternativa a …-ISH (it.Participio attivo)

                                                 

                                                ... I-SHEM es hao alternativa a …-EM (kom emfasa-ney gerundio)

                                                ...
                                                I-SHA es OK

                                                 


                                                MERKI:

                                                In zwo-worda unsilabe tu yusi preferi-nem (preferem) lo forma zui “flue”:

                                                 

                                                Chi-nem, chi-she, chi-nesh (non: chi-em, chi-ish, chi-esh)

                                                Zin-em, zin-ish, zin-esh (non: Zin-nem, zin-she, zin-nesh)

                                                 

                                                Bat por „poesie“ oda „emfase“ kausa oni mog yusi egalem un-ney oda dwa-ney formas.

                                                Otre examplas:


                                                abrevi-ney => abrevi-nesh, sinonimo de abrevesh
                                                abrevi-nem => abrevi-nem, sinonimo de abrevem

                                                amiga-ney => amiga-ney, sinonimo de amige
                                                amiga-nem => amiga-nem, sinonimo de amigem

                                                danki-shem => danki-shem, sinonimo de dankesh

                                                fatigi-ney => fastigi-nesh, sinonomo de fatigesh
                                                fatigi-nem => fatigi-nem, sinonimo de fatigem

                                                jivi-ney => jivi-nesh, sinonimo de jivesh

                                                jivi-she => jivi-she, sinonimo de jivish

                                                morbi-ney => morbi-nesh, sinonomo de morbesh

                                                morti-ney => morti-nesh, sinonomo de mortesh.

                                                morti-she => morti-she, sinonomo de mortish.

                                                 

                                                Gani-ney => gani-nesh, sinonomo de ganesh

                                                Gani-she => gani-she, sinonomo de ganish

                                                Gani-nem => gani-nem, sinonomo de ganem

                                                Gani-shem = “emfase” forma de gani-nem e de ganem


                                                atenti-nem => atenti-nem, sinonomo de atentem

                                                atenti-she => atenti-she, sinonomo de atentish

                                                atenta-ney => atenta-ney, sinonomo de atente


                                                defekta-ney => defekta-ney, sinonimo de defekte.

                                                nodependa-ney => nodependa-ney, sinonomo de nodepende

                                                distinta-ney => distinta-ney, sinonomo de distinte

                                                 

                                                farka-ney => farka-ney, sinonimo de farke

                                                farka-nem => farka-nem, sinonimo de farkem

                                                fakta-ney => fakta-ney, sinonomo de fakte (vere eventi-ney)

                                                fakta-nem => fakta-nem, sinonomo de faktem (pa fakta)


                                                dusfama-ney => dusfama-ney, sinnimo de dusfame

                                                golda-ney => golda-ney, sinonimo de golde

                                                dom char-etaja-ney => ... char-etaja-ney, sinonimo de char-etaje
                                                 
                                                ofni-ney => ofni-nesh, sinonimo de ofnesh

                                                klosi-ney => klosi-nesh, sinonimo de klosesh

                                                 

                                                Swasti!

                                                 

                                                Attilio





                                                2011/1/30 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...>
                                                 



                                                --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "lingwadeplaneta" <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                                > I'd like to make an experiment and simply count number of all -ai, -oi, -ei and -ui in a given text in LdP, Esperanto, and English, and some other language. That must be interesting to compare.

                                                Let's go. Here's the beginning of Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. We are counting the general amount of [ai], [ei], [oi], [ui].

                                                1. English

                                                This is the story of the great [ei]
                                                war that Rikki-tikki-tavi fought single-handed, through the bath-rooms of the big bungalow in Segowlee cantonment. Darzee, the Tailorbird [ei]
                                                , helped him, and Chuchundra, the musk-rat, who never comes out into the middle of the floor, but always [ei]
                                                creeps round by [ai]
                                                the wall, gave [ei]
                                                him advice [ai]
                                                , but Rikki-tikki did the real fighting.[ai]

                                                Altogether 7: 4 ei's and 3 ai's.
                                                (and it has also other diphthongs)

                                                2. Lidepla

                                                Es historia om gro-gwer ke Rikki-Tikki-Tavi fai [ai]
                                                ga sole, in banishambas de un gran dom in Segoli vilaja. Darsi, suterfaula, helpi a ta, e Chuchundra, miskarata kel nulves go tra mida de poda bat sempre kripi bli mur, fai [ai]
                                                konsila a ta. Yedoh vere batala gei [ei] fai [ai] bay [ai] Rikki-Tikki.

                                                Altogether 5: 1 ei and 4 ai's.

                                                3. Esperanto

                                                Jen la historio pri la granda milito, kiun Rikki-Tikki-Tavi tute sola entreprenis, tra la banejoj [ei] [oi]
                                                de la granda bangalo en kazerno Segoli. Darzi, la tajlorbirdo [ai], helpis lin, kaj [ai]
                                                &#264;u&#265;undra, la miogalo, kiu neniam aperas meze de la planko sed &#265;iam rampas apud la muro, konsilis lin, sed la veran bataladon faris Rikki-Tikki.

                                                Altogether 4: 1 ei, 1 oi, 2 ai's
                                                (it has also [iu], [ia] with stressed "i" but that doesn't interest us now)

                                                Now let's take the next paragraph.

                                                1. English

                                                He was a mongoose, rather like [ai]
                                                a little cat in his fur and his tail [ei]
                                                , but quite like [ai] [ai]
                                                a weasel in his head and his habits. His eyes [ai]
                                                and the end of his restless nose were pink. He could scratch himself anywhere he pleased with any leg, front or back, that he chose to use. He could fluff up his tail [ei]
                                                till it looked like [ai]
                                                a bottle brush, and his war cry [ai]
                                                as he scuttled through the long grass was: Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-chk!

                                                Altogether 8: 6 ai's and 2 ei's

                                                2. Lidepla

                                                Ta es mangusta, bay [ai]
                                                farwa e kauda simili kota-ki, bat bay [ai]
                                                kapa e abyas simili laska. Suy okos e nok de suy [ui]
                                                sinfatiga-ney [ei]
                                                nos es rose. Ta mog skrapi swa enilok bay [ai]
                                                eni pata, avane o bake, kwel unkwe ta yao yusi. Ta mog puhisi kauda til ke it simili botelabrash, e suy [ui]
                                                batalakraisa al ke ta flai [ai]
                                                -lopi tra longe herba es Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-chk!

                                                Altogether 7: 4 ai's, 1 ei and 2 [ui]

                                                3. Esperanto

                                                Li estis mungo, iom simila pro felo kaj [ai]
                                                vosto al kateto, sed kape kaj [ai]
                                                kutime musteleca. Rozkoloraj [ai]
                                                estis liaj [ai]
                                                okuloj [ai] kaj [ai]
                                                la pinto de lia maltrankvila nazo; li povis skrapi al si ie ajn [ai], la&#365;pla&#265;e, per iu ajn [ai]
                                                kruro, a&#365; anta&#365;a a&#365; malanta&#365;a, kiun li elektis uzi; li povis hirtigi la voston &#285;is &#285;i similis al kalistemo, kaj [ai]
                                                lia militokrio, dum li trakuris la longan herbaron, estis: "Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-t&#265;k!"

                                                Altogether 9, all ai's.

                                                To sum up, in two first paragraphs
                                                English - 15
                                                Lidepla - 12
                                                Esperanto - 13

                                                Preliminary conclusion: Lidepla doesn't have more i-glides than English or Esperanto.


                                              • Attilio Liotto
                                                Korektisa. Nichen-ney expresa es galta-ney: *danki-shem = danki-shem, sinonimo de dankesh (galta-ney).* *Danki-shem, bu es sinonimo de dankesh.* * ... I-SHEM
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 2, 2011
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                                                  Korektisa.

                                                  Nichen-ney expresa es galta-ney:

                                                  danki-shem => danki-shem, sinonimo de dankesh (galta-ney).

                                                  Danki-shem, bu es sinonimo de dankesh.

                                                  *

                                                  ... I-SHEM es hao alternativa a …-EM (kom emfasa-ney „gerundio“).
                                                  Also:

                                                  Danki-shem es emfasa-ney forma de danki-nem e de dankem

                                                  Gani-shem es “emfase” forma de gani-nem e de ganem

                                                  Rasmi-shem es “emfase” forma de rasmi-nem e de rasmem

                                                  Etf.

                                                   

                                                  Pardoni ba otre probable galtas.

                                                   

                                                  Swasti Attilio



                                                  2011/2/2 Attilio Liotto <attilio.liotto@...>

                                                  Kare amigas,

                                                   

                                                  Me bu es kontra diftongas, bat sol kontra suy tro ofte yusa.

                                                  Krome, bu oli diftonga sam pesi, e toshi bu oli vakala:

                                                  “I”, “E” es pyu leve kem “A”, “A” es pyu leve kem “O”, e “O” es pyu leve kem “U”. Also, si oni zwo texta kun same kwantitaa de I, E, A, O, U; lekti-shem sey texta, “I”, “E” sembli meno kem “A”, e “A” sembli meno kem “O” e “U”.

                                                   

                                                  Same kosa es om diftongas:

                                                  YE, YA, YO, YU; es pyu leve kem EY, AY, OY, UY.

                                                   En nova planlingwa kun munda-ney aspira, oni mus kaulu se.

                                                   

                                                  Tu kompari kwantitaa de diftonga in esperanto, inglish, e lidepla, es “trompise” politika bikos:

                                                   

                                                  1)    Inglish bu es lingua “munde” elekti-ney, pa suy jamilitaa, bat forsi-ney dank a gwer-ney jita e lo zuy gran teknologi pa sey lingwa.

                                                   

                                                  2)    Esperanto bu janmi-te kun aspira bikam lingwa de planeta, bat kun aspira bikam komunkitul fo simple jen.

                                                  Problemas pri finika “-OJ”, “AJ”, “AŬ”, e wordas “TIUJ”, “KIUJ” apari jo pa beginsa. Om “TIUJ”, “KIUJ” pluri texta he chu, sub nam “Du malsanoj en Esperanto”.

                                                  Bat Zamenhof a oli sey kritika jawabi:

                                                  “Mi faris lingvon por simplaj personoj; la elito jam havas internacian lingvon, ĝi estas la latina”. (tiutempe tio veris).

                                                   

                                                  “La netuŝebla Fundamento de Esperanto” goli ya ke esperanto resti ba simple komunikitul por simple jenes.

                                                   

                                                  Me haishi dumi ke lingwa kel aspiri bikam porti-sha de munda-ney kultura mus hev “sinonime” expresas bu sam longe.

                                                   

                                                  Me toshi yao adi ke Asia jen muy pri esperanto-ney finikas –O, -A, -E, -I.

                                                  Fo Asia-ney  esperantistas, Zamenhof bin un “genia” sol pro to.

                                                  Ver ke asia-ney esperantista, nau es pyu entsiasma-ney kem europa-ney, bat, om to oni mus idyen dumi.

                                                  Kan ba bak sey linka >  http://www.ipernity.com/home/rozoqiuju8

                                                  E judi ba yu selfa.  

                                                   

                                                  *

                                                  Naŭ nu rilai a nuy liepla finikas.

                                                  Walaa may dumas om partikla NEY e lo similes:

                                                   

                                                  ... A-NEY es hao alternativa a …-E  (it. Aggettivo)


                                                  ... A-NEM es hao alternativa a …–EM  (it. avverbio)


                                                  (... I-NESH implasi ... I-NEY)


                                                  ... I-NESH es hao alternativa a ... –ESH (it. Participio passivo)

                                                  ... I-NEM es hao alternativa a …–EM (it. Gerundio o avverbio)


                                                  ... I-SHE es hao alternativa a …-ISH (it.Participio attivo)

                                                   

                                                  ... I-SHEM es hao alternativa a …-EM (kom emfasa-ney gerundio)

                                                  ...
                                                  I-SHA es OK

                                                   


                                                  MERKI:

                                                  In zwo-worda unsilabe tu yusi preferi-nem (preferem) lo forma zui “flue”:

                                                   

                                                  Chi-nem, chi-she, chi-nesh (non: chi-em, chi-ish, chi-esh)

                                                  Zin-em, zin-ish, zin-esh (non: Zin-nem, zin-she, zin-nesh)

                                                   

                                                  Bat por „poesie“ oda „emfase“ kausa oni mog yusi egalem un-ney oda dwa-ney formas.

                                                  Otre examplas:


                                                  abrevi-ney => abrevi-nesh, sinonimo de abrevesh
                                                  abrevi-nem => abrevi-nem, sinonimo de abrevem

                                                  amiga-ney => amiga-ney, sinonimo de amige
                                                  amiga-nem => amiga-nem, sinonimo de amigem

                                                  danki-shem => danki-shem, sinonimo de dankesh

                                                  fatigi-ney => fastigi-nesh, sinonomo de fatigesh
                                                  fatigi-nem => fatigi-nem, sinonimo de fatigem

                                                  jivi-ney => jivi-nesh, sinonimo de jivesh

                                                  jivi-she => jivi-she, sinonimo de jivish

                                                  morbi-ney => morbi-nesh, sinonomo de morbesh

                                                  morti-ney => morti-nesh, sinonomo de mortesh.

                                                  morti-she => morti-she, sinonomo de mortish.

                                                   

                                                  Gani-ney => gani-nesh, sinonomo de ganesh

                                                  Gani-she => gani-she, sinonomo de ganish

                                                  Gani-nem => gani-nem, sinonomo de ganem

                                                  Gani-shem = “emfase” forma de gani-nem e de ganem


                                                  atenti-nem => atenti-nem, sinonomo de atentem

                                                  atenti-she => atenti-she, sinonomo de atentish

                                                  atenta-ney => atenta-ney, sinonomo de atente


                                                  defekta-ney => defekta-ney, sinonimo de defekte.

                                                  nodependa-ney => nodependa-ney, sinonomo de nodepende

                                                  distinta-ney => distinta-ney, sinonomo de distinte

                                                   

                                                  farka-ney => farka-ney, sinonimo de farke

                                                  farka-nem => farka-nem, sinonimo de farkem

                                                  fakta-ney => fakta-ney, sinonomo de fakte (vere eventi-ney)

                                                  fakta-nem => fakta-nem, sinonomo de faktem (pa fakta)


                                                  dusfama-ney => dusfama-ney, sinnimo de dusfame

                                                  golda-ney => golda-ney, sinonimo de golde

                                                  dom char-etaja-ney => ... char-etaja-ney, sinonimo de char-etaje
                                                   
                                                  ofni-ney => ofni-nesh, sinonimo de ofnesh

                                                  klosi-ney => klosi-nesh, sinonimo de klosesh

                                                   

                                                  Swasti!

                                                   

                                                  Attilio





                                                  2011/1/30 lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...>

                                                   



                                                  --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "lingwadeplaneta" <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                                  > I'd like to make an experiment and simply count number of all -ai, -oi, -ei and -ui in a given text in LdP, Esperanto, and English, and some other language. That must be interesting to compare.

                                                  Let's go. Here's the beginning of Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. We are counting the general amount of [ai], [ei], [oi], [ui].

                                                  1. English

                                                  This is the story of the great [ei]
                                                  war that Rikki-tikki-tavi fought single-handed, through the bath-rooms of the big bungalow in Segowlee cantonment. Darzee, the Tailorbird [ei]
                                                  , helped him, and Chuchundra, the musk-rat, who never comes out into the middle of the floor, but always [ei]
                                                  creeps round by [ai]
                                                  the wall, gave [ei]
                                                  him advice [ai]
                                                  , but Rikki-tikki did the real fighting.[ai]

                                                  Altogether 7: 4 ei's and 3 ai's.
                                                  (and it has also other diphthongs)

                                                  2. Lidepla

                                                  Es historia om gro-gwer ke Rikki-Tikki-Tavi fai [ai]
                                                  ga sole, in banishambas de un gran dom in Segoli vilaja. Darsi, suterfaula, helpi a ta, e Chuchundra, miskarata kel nulves go tra mida de poda bat sempre kripi bli mur, fai [ai]
                                                  konsila a ta. Yedoh vere batala gei [ei] fai [ai] bay [ai] Rikki-Tikki.

                                                  Altogether 5: 1 ei and 4 ai's.

                                                  3. Esperanto

                                                  Jen la historio pri la granda milito, kiun Rikki-Tikki-Tavi tute sola entreprenis, tra la banejoj [ei] [oi]
                                                  de la granda bangalo en kazerno Segoli. Darzi, la tajlorbirdo [ai], helpis lin, kaj [ai]
                                                  &#264;u&#265;undra, la miogalo, kiu neniam aperas meze de la planko sed &#265;iam rampas apud la muro, konsilis lin, sed la veran bataladon faris Rikki-Tikki.

                                                  Altogether 4: 1 ei, 1 oi, 2 ai's
                                                  (it has also [iu], [ia] with stressed "i" but that doesn't interest us now)

                                                  Now let's take the next paragraph.

                                                  1. English

                                                  He was a mongoose, rather like [ai]
                                                  a little cat in his fur and his tail [ei]
                                                  , but quite like [ai] [ai]
                                                  a weasel in his head and his habits. His eyes [ai]
                                                  and the end of his restless nose were pink. He could scratch himself anywhere he pleased with any leg, front or back, that he chose to use. He could fluff up his tail [ei]
                                                  till it looked like [ai]
                                                  a bottle brush, and his war cry [ai]
                                                  as he scuttled through the long grass was: Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-chk!

                                                  Altogether 8: 6 ai's and 2 ei's

                                                  2. Lidepla

                                                  Ta es mangusta, bay [ai]
                                                  farwa e kauda simili kota-ki, bat bay [ai]
                                                  kapa e abyas simili laska. Suy okos e nok de suy [ui]
                                                  sinfatiga-ney [ei]
                                                  nos es rose. Ta mog skrapi swa enilok bay [ai]
                                                  eni pata, avane o bake, kwel unkwe ta yao yusi. Ta mog puhisi kauda til ke it simili botelabrash, e suy [ui]
                                                  batalakraisa al ke ta flai [ai]
                                                  -lopi tra longe herba es Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-chk!

                                                  Altogether 7: 4 ai's, 1 ei and 2 [ui]

                                                  3. Esperanto

                                                  Li estis mungo, iom simila pro felo kaj [ai]
                                                  vosto al kateto, sed kape kaj [ai]
                                                  kutime musteleca. Rozkoloraj [ai]
                                                  estis liaj [ai]
                                                  okuloj [ai] kaj [ai]
                                                  la pinto de lia maltrankvila nazo; li povis skrapi al si ie ajn [ai], la&#365;pla&#265;e, per iu ajn [ai]
                                                  kruro, a&#365; anta&#365;a a&#365; malanta&#365;a, kiun li elektis uzi; li povis hirtigi la voston &#285;is &#285;i similis al kalistemo, kaj [ai]
                                                  lia militokrio, dum li trakuris la longan herbaron, estis: "Rikk-tikk-tikki-tikki-t&#265;k!"

                                                  Altogether 9, all ai's.

                                                  To sum up, in two first paragraphs
                                                  English - 15
                                                  Lidepla - 12
                                                  Esperanto - 13

                                                  Preliminary conclusion: Lidepla doesn't have more i-glides than English or Esperanto.



                                                • lingwadeplaneta
                                                  For English text, kan nich. Oni mog aprobi kurtisa Ca-ney = Ce (wo C es konsonanta) al dwa kondision: 1) fon resulti-she worda oni bu darfi derivi kwo-w., to
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 2, 2011
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                                                    For English text, kan nich.

                                                     

                                                    Oni mog aprobi kurtisa Ca-ney => Ce (wo C es konsonanta) al dwa kondision:

                                                     

                                                    1)  fon resulti-she worda oni bu darfi derivi kwo-w., to es Ce => Ca es prohibi-ney. Al nau oni librem derivi konkrete kwo-w. (kel maini kosa o jen) fon e-kwel-w.: jamile => jamila (koywan jamile), konstante => konstanta (koysa konstante). Si nu permiti morta-ney => morte (dead), dan nu mus prohibi bak-deriva morte => morta, dabe eviti ambiguitaa (morta – death? somebody dead?).

                                                    Also in lexikon oni haishi mus prisenti i fule forma, i kurtisi-ney forma:

                                                    morti – to die

                                                    morta – death

                                                    morta-ney (morte) – dead

                                                     

                                                    2) oni bu darfi yusi Ca-ney => Ce wen "ney" expresi genitiv*:

                                                    mata-ney kitaba (bu "mate kitaba")

                                                    asla-ney aures (bu "asle aures")

                                                    In kasu de genitiv pinchanem X-ney Y = Y de X:

                                                    mata-ney kitaba = kitaba de mata

                                                    asla-ney aures = aures de asla

                                                     

                                                    Exampla. "Jiva-ney" mog maini "jivi-she" o "de jiva". Si it maini "jivi-she", nu mog kurtisi it inu "jive": jive fish, jive jen. Bat si it maini "de jiva", nu yusi ba "jiva-ney": jiva-ney kanun (=kanun de jiva).

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Wo kurtisa Ca-ney => Ce godi, Ca-nem => Cem godi toshi. Krome, oni mog permiti Ci-nem => Cem, Ci-shem => Cem, si ambiguitaa yok.

                                                     

                                                    Also, walaa exampla de lexikon-ney unida:

                                                     

                                                    farki – farka – farka-ney (farke) – farka-nem (farkem)

                                                    atenti – atenta – atenta-ney (atente) – atenta-nem (atentem)

                                                    hunti – hunta – hunta-ney (hunte) – hunta-nem (huntem)

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Om "nesh" – fon wo sey forma origini?

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    One can agree with the shortening Ca-ney => Ce (where C is a consonant) under two conditions:

                                                     

                                                    1)  one may not back-derive noun from the resulting adjective, i.e. Ce => Ca should be prohibited. Currently one can freely derive concrete nouns (meaning a thing or a person) from the e-adjectives: jamile => jamila (koywan jamile), konstante => konstanta (koysa konstante). If we allow morta-ney => morte (dead), then we must prohibit morte => morta, to avoid ambiguity (morta – death? somebody dead?).

                                                    So in the dictionary we'll have to present both full and short forms:

                                                    morti – to die

                                                    morta – death

                                                    morta-ney (morte) – dead

                                                     

                                                    2) one may not shorten Ca-ney => Ce when "ney" expresses the genitive:

                                                    mata-ney kitaba (not "mate kitaba")

                                                    asla-ney aures (not "asle aures")

                                                    With genitive it's usually X-ney Y = Y de X:

                                                    mata-ney kitaba = kitaba de mata

                                                    asla-ney aures = aures de asla

                                                     

                                                    An example. "Jiva-ney" may mean  "living, alive" or "life's, of life". If it means "living", we may shorten it into "jive": jive fish, jive jen. But if it means Bat si it maini "life's, of life", we should use "jiva-ney": jiva-ney kanun (=kanun de jiva, the law of life).

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Where Ca-ney => Ce is applicable, Ca-nem => Cem is applicable too. Besides one can allow shortenings Ci-nem => Cem, Ci-shem => Cem, if there is no ambiguity.

                                                     

                                                    Here are some examples of the dictionary entries:

                                                     

                                                    farki – farka – farka-ney (farke) – farka-nem (farkem)

                                                    atenti – atenta – atenta-ney (atente) – atenta-nem (atentem)

                                                    hunti – hunta – hunta-ney (hunte) – hunta-nem (huntem)

                                                     

                                                    Swasti!

                                                     

                                                    Dmitri

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                  • Stephen Rice
                                                    It s a good idea to distinguish between elementary and advanced usage, and this strikes me as advanced. That s not bad; all languages make such distinctions,
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 3, 2011
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                                                      It's a good idea to distinguish between elementary and advanced usage,
                                                      and this strikes me as advanced. That's not bad; all languages make
                                                      such distinctions, and the abbreviation in question would be both
                                                      colloquial and literary, i.e., not for beginners.

                                                      LdP needs a proper textbook, and when it shows up, this should be near the back.

                                                      Steve
                                                    • lingwadeplaneta
                                                      I actually like these changes. The forms morte, jive, hunge and such are quite obvious and we had them at the beginning, but later dropped them for uniformity
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 5, 2011
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                                                        I actually like these changes. The forms morte, jive, hunge and such are quite obvious and we had them at the beginning, but later dropped them for uniformity of derivation, lest there is an impression that LdP is two languages in one: one based on inflexions and another based on particles. But as shortenings/alternative forms of morta-ney, jiva-ney, hunga-ney they can go very well. Yes, it may be presented as advanced usage.
                                                        All that we should change in the grammar is to postulate that -e => -a works only for roots that are basically adjectives (jamile, rude, whatever) and are listed as such in the lexikon, i.e. where adjective stands first.
                                                        A good thing is also that these changes won't require any serious correction of the existing texts.


                                                        One root that puzzles me is "open". In some languages it goes as an adjective, in others as a participle. Currently we have "ofni-ney" which sort of implies that something has been opened or has opened by itself. However, some things may be permanently open. I wonder if it's OK to make it "ofna-ney" (thus "ofne" as shortening).

                                                        Dmitri



                                                        --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > It's a good idea to distinguish between elementary and advanced usage,
                                                        > and this strikes me as advanced. That's not bad; all languages make
                                                        > such distinctions, and the abbreviation in question would be both
                                                        > colloquial and literary, i.e., not for beginners.
                                                        >
                                                        > LdP needs a proper textbook, and when it shows up, this should be near the back.
                                                        >
                                                        > Steve
                                                        >
                                                      • lingwadeplaneta
                                                        I wrote to Copenhagen to Anastassia about these proposals, and she answered hai budze , which in Belorussian means Hay to bi (Let it be). That s good,
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                                          I wrote to Copenhagen to Anastassia about these proposals, and she answered "hai budze", which in Belorussian means "Hay to bi" (Let it be). That's good, because no significant grammar change can be done without her consent.


                                                          --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "lingwadeplaneta" <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I actually like these changes. The forms morte, jive, hunge and such are quite obvious and we had them at the beginning, but later dropped them for uniformity of derivation, lest there is an impression that LdP is two languages in one: one based on inflexions and another based on particles. But as shortenings/alternative forms of morta-ney, jiva-ney, hunga-ney they can go very well. Yes, it may be presented as advanced usage.
                                                          > All that we should change in the grammar is to postulate that -e => -a works only for roots that are basically adjectives (jamile, rude, whatever) and are listed as such in the lexikon, i.e. where adjective stands first.
                                                          > A good thing is also that these changes won't require any serious correction of the existing texts.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > One root that puzzles me is "open". In some languages it goes as an adjective, in others as a participle. Currently we have "ofni-ney" which sort of implies that something has been opened or has opened by itself. However, some things may be permanently open. I wonder if it's OK to make it "ofna-ney" (thus "ofne" as shortening).
                                                          >
                                                          > Dmitri
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > It's a good idea to distinguish between elementary and advanced usage,
                                                          > > and this strikes me as advanced. That's not bad; all languages make
                                                          > > such distinctions, and the abbreviation in question would be both
                                                          > > colloquial and literary, i.e., not for beginners.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > LdP needs a proper textbook, and when it shows up, this should be near the back.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Steve
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        • Stephen Rice
                                                          ... So do I. One of the reservations I ve had about LdP is that it has been awkward. Especially for poetry, that isn t good. The shorter forms are an
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                                            On 2/5/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > I actually like these changes.

                                                            So do I. One of the reservations I've had about LdP is that it has
                                                            been awkward. Especially for poetry, that isn't good. The shorter
                                                            forms are an improvement metrically as well as being more intuitive.

                                                            > Yes, it may be presented as advanced usage.
                                                            > All that we should change in the grammar is to postulate that -e => -a works
                                                            > only for roots that are basically adjectives (jamile, rude, whatever) and
                                                            > are listed as such in the lexikon, i.e. where adjective stands first.

                                                            That's why it needs to be advanced: beginners probably won't get that right.

                                                            > One root that puzzles me is "open". In some languages it goes as an
                                                            > adjective, in others as a participle. Currently we have "ofni-ney" which
                                                            > sort of implies that something has been opened or has opened by itself.
                                                            > However, some things may be permanently open. I wonder if it's OK to make it
                                                            > "ofna-ney" (thus "ofne" as shortening).
                                                            >
                                                            The adjective would be better. You can make an adjective a verb, but
                                                            except for stative verbs, you can't truly make a verb an adjective.

                                                            Steve
                                                          • lingwadeplaneta
                                                            ... One might think about another shortening for advanced users: Ci-ney = Cen for non-monosyllabic i-verbs. adopti-ney = adopten agiti-ney = agiten
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 7, 2011
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                                                              --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Rice <ansrith@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > On 2/5/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > I actually like these changes.
                                                              >
                                                              > So do I. One of the reservations I've had about LdP is that it has
                                                              > been awkward. Especially for poetry, that isn't good. The shorter
                                                              > forms are an improvement metrically as well as being more intuitive.
                                                              >

                                                              One might think about another shortening for advanced users:
                                                              Ci-ney => Cen
                                                              for non-monosyllabic i-verbs.

                                                              adopti-ney => adopten
                                                              agiti-ney => agiten
                                                              akwiri-ney => akwiren
                                                              armisi-ney => armisen

                                                              That will reduce ney's to a minimum, and allow to often avoid the awkward combination "-ney bay":
                                                              fogeti-ney bay me => fogeten bay me
                                                              skribi-ney bay ta => skriben bay ta
                                                              waipi-ney bay tuh => waipen bay tuh
                                                            • Stephen Rice
                                                              ... I hope you re putting all this in the grammar, preferably in a section to itself. I can probably remember it, but it would be good to have it all written
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Feb 7, 2011
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                                                                On 2/7/11, lingwadeplaneta <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > One might think about another shortening for advanced users:
                                                                > Ci-ney => Cen
                                                                > for non-monosyllabic i-verbs.
                                                                >
                                                                > adopti-ney => adopten
                                                                > agiti-ney => agiten
                                                                > akwiri-ney => akwiren
                                                                > armisi-ney => armisen
                                                                >
                                                                > That will reduce ney's to a minimum, and allow to often avoid the awkward
                                                                > combination "-ney bay":
                                                                > fogeti-ney bay me => fogeten bay me
                                                                > skribi-ney bay ta => skriben bay ta
                                                                > waipi-ney bay tuh => waipen bay tuh
                                                                >
                                                                I hope you're putting all this in the grammar, preferably in a section
                                                                to itself. I can probably remember it, but it would be good to have it
                                                                all written down in an appropriate spot.

                                                                Steve
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