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Re: Kelke idea

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  • lingwadeplaneta
    Swasti Attilio! Btw do you know why there are two t in your name? Maybe historically it comes from *Aktilio? ... Thanks for your ideas about participles, but
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2009
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      Swasti Attilio!

      Btw do you know why there are two "t" in your name? Maybe historically it comes from *Aktilio?

      >
      > Prima di scegliere le desinenze dei participio/participi passivo/passivi,
      > vale la pena �idyen endumi om� i/il partipi(o) attivi/o.
      >
      >

      Thanks for your ideas about participles, but I think that it's best to have only one active and only one passive participle. There were long discussions about Esperanto's 3 participles. People argued, what is exactly the difference between "esis skribata" and "esis skribita", "esas skribita" and "esis skribata", there were even fractions... Natural languages show that just one participle may be sufficient.


      >
      > Fino a due mesi fa, avevamo solo la desinenza del participio
      > attivo presente
      > �-she�:
      >
      >
      >
      > �Gela lekti-she kitaba� = en Eo �Knabino leganta libron�.
      >
      >

      You know, it isn't written in the grammar, but I think that the use of accusative after the present participle is better to be avoided. In Eo it's OK because it marks accusative: libroN. But in LdP there may be a slight confusion: "chi-she gova" may mean "cow that is eating" in one context and "eating a cow" in another. Actually, it isn't a mistake to say "gela lekti-she kitaba", but for clarity I'd recommend in such cases a construction with "kel":
      "gela kel lekti kitaba".

      Currently I am awaiting opinions of some other people on the questions of "wan", -tey, and the question of possible shortening of -ney to -n after a vowel:
      surya (suno) - suryan (suna).
      Maybe it will take some time yet.

      Caro Attilio, you have sent me suggestions about some words, from which I conclude that you are capable of suggesting words (roots) also from non-European languages, including even Vietnamese. If you feel that LdP needs some de-Europization, you are welcome to suggest non-European roots that could replace European ones. Better if they are widely used, of course. It's not an easy job, and it takes time. I myself usually take inspiration from reading dictionaries and finding words that sound alike with other languages that I know.

      Zuy hao tamana fo sedey!

      Dmitri
    • cafaristeir
      Hao janmadey a Attilio ! ... Don t forget that English uses both the -ing form as an active participle and as an infinitive. Thus chi gova means manger
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2009
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        Hao janmadey a Attilio !

        > You know, it isn't written in the grammar, but I think that the use of accusative after the present participle is better to be avoided. In Eo it's OK because it marks accusative: libroN. But in LdP there may be a slight confusion: "chi-she gova" may mean "cow that is eating" in one context and "eating a cow" in another. Actually, it isn't a mistake to say "gela lekti-she kitaba", but for clarity I'd recommend in such cases a construction with "kel":
        > "gela kel lekti kitaba".
        >
        >
        Don't forget that English uses both the -ing form as an active participle and as an infinitive. Thus "chi gova" means "manger un/la vache" while "chi-she gova" is "vache qui mange".
        For LdP, the problem may come if "chi-she" is a gerundive too. "by eating the cow"; "en mangeant la vache". I don't remember if there is a special form in LdP; if not, use the adverb ending: *chi-she-em gova, as I do in Sambahsa: "eddend-ye iam gwow".
        But, it's true that a subordinate can be used too. Luxembourg Franconian does not have active participle.
        In German you can say "eine grasende Kuh" but in Luxembourgish, there is only "eng Kou, déi grast" = "une vache qui broute".

        One participle for active and one for passive are enough, but Sambahsa has soon revived the IE active past participle "having...": "vs/us": It still exists in Russian !I use it as an infinitive too.

        Olivier
        http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
      • lingwadeplaneta
        ... There is: chi-yen , or al chi . Al chi morta-ney gova, wuyas batali fo zuy hao lokma. (lokma is a piece of eating) ... It s only for clarity that I
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 2, 2009
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          --- In lingwadeplaneta@yahoogroups.com, "cafaristeir" <cafaristeir@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hao janmadey a Attilio !
          >
          > > You know, it isn't written in the grammar, but I think that the use of accusative after the present participle is better to be avoided. In Eo it's OK because it marks accusative: libroN. But in LdP there may be a slight confusion: "chi-she gova" may mean "cow that is eating" in one context and "eating a cow" in another. Actually, it isn't a mistake to say "gela lekti-she kitaba", but for clarity I'd recommend in such cases a construction with "kel":
          > > "gela kel lekti kitaba".
          > >
          > >
          > Don't forget that English uses both the -ing form as an active participle and as an infinitive. Thus "chi gova" means "manger un/la vache" while "chi-she gova" is "vache qui mange".
          > For LdP, the problem may come if "chi-she" is a gerundive too. "by eating the cow"; "en mangeant la vache". I don't remember if there is
          > a special form in LdP;

          There is: "chi-yen", or "al chi".

          Al chi morta-ney gova, wuyas batali fo zuy hao lokma.

          (lokma is a piece of eating)


          > if not, use the adverb ending: *chi-she-em gova, as I do in Sambahsa: "eddend-ye iam gwow".
          > But, it's true that a subordinate can be used too. Luxembourg Franconian does not have active participle.
          > In German you can say "eine grasende Kuh" but in Luxembourgish, there is only "eng Kou, déi grast" = "une vache qui broute".


          It's only for clarity that I recommend the construction with "kel", because LdP lacks conjugations and declensions and thus some useful redundancy in this particular case.

          >
          > One participle for active and one for passive are enough, but Sambahsa has soon revived the IE active past participle "having...": "vs/us": It still exists in Russian !I use it as an infinitive too.
          >

          Interesting that Attilio guessed it almost correctly when he proposed -shi: in Russian it's -vshi:

          videt' (to see) - videvshi (having seen)
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