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Re: Violence and the State

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  • Paul Antonik Wakfer
    ... Subject: Re: Violence and the State Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:38:55 -0800 From: Butler Shaffer To: Paul Antonik Wakfer
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 1, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject: Re: Violence and the State
      Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:38:55 -0800
      From: Butler Shaffer <bshaffer@...>
      To: Paul Antonik Wakfer <paul@...>
      CC: libertarian-nation@yahoogroups.com,
      molinari-institute@yahoogroups.com, Lew Rockwell <lew@...>
      References: <d25meo+vfa7@...> <42479938.8090206@...>

      Paul:

      Why don't you provide such a "practical plan" and e-mail it to Lew
      Rockwell? We all might find it of interest.

      Butler
      ---------------------------------------------

      And

      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject: Re: Violence and the State
      Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:09:31 -0800
      From: Lew Rockwell <lhrockwell@...>
      To: <paul@...>
      References: <d25meo+vfa7@...> <42479938.8090206@...>

      The Plan is your job, sir. Come up with it.
      ---------------------------

      Lew and Butler,

      Thanks for the invitation (and the challenge :)
      I certainly plan to respond.
      I have had both a "target" stably self-ordered free society as
      theory, implementation and descriptive notes (annotations):
      http://selfsip.org/fundamentals/socialmetaneeds.html
      http://selfsip.org/solutions/socialcontract_annotated.html
      and a method by which I think it can be attained:
      The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - see http://selfsip.org
      online for sometime.

      The "target" is constantly undergoing fine tuning as I read, think and
      discuss with others. Recently this resulted in a need to make a major
      rewrite when it became clear that my current online target
      implementation was still far too "interim" (ie. too close to and biased
      by current social norms). I am now in the middle of this rewrite, but
      when it is complete and online I will write and send to you an
      introductory article of brief description of its essentials, including
      why I am convinced it provides both a "practical stable free society --
      and a comprehensive practical plan to get there".

      In the meantime you or anyone else who is interested can examine the
      above URL's to get a good idea of what I am proposing.

      Again thanks for your response,

      --Paul Wakfer


      > Paul Antonik Wakfer wrote:
      >
      >> rg415wbfa wrote:
      >>
      >>>
      >>> http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer99.html
      >>>
      >>> Violence and the State
      >>>
      >>> by Butler Shaffer
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> This is yet another piece by Butler Shaffer which, like so many
      >> similar pieces constantly published by others, appears to have no
      >> other real purpose but to incite the libertarian multitude to cries of
      >> "Ya! Ya!".
      >>
      >> Does Shaffer really think that the message of his piece is not
      >> transparently obvious to any thinking libertarian (and is there really
      >> any purpose in addressing the rest?). Even if it is not, what good
      >> does it do any libertarian? - who already knows that state ideas,
      >> influence and power must be greatly reduced or eliminated entirely.
      >>
      >> If this is meant for non-libertarians, then how is it reaching them
      >> and just what solution is it suggesting to them?
      >> If it is meant as "intellectual ammunition" to help libertarians reach
      >> out and convince non-libertarians that the state must be reduced
      >> and/or eliminated (which would certainly be a worthwhile thing to
      >> provide), then I fail to see how it is accomplishing that purpose.
      >>
      >> Rather than more rants and complaints about what all thinking
      >> libertarians know is wrong in so many, many ways, what is needed is a
      >> clear description of the operation of a practical stable free society
      >> as the libertarian target and a comprehensive practical plan to get
      >> there.
      >>
      >> --Paul Wakfer
      >>
      >> MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
      >> Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
      >> The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
      >> Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting
    • Paul Antonik Wakfer
      To: Butler Shaffer, Lew Rockwell and all readers of this group. In their challenge to me (see below) both Shaffer and Rockwell completely ignored my statement
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 26, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        To: Butler Shaffer, Lew Rockwell and all readers of this group.

        In their challenge to me (see below) both Shaffer and Rockwell
        completely ignored my statement about the need for "a clear
        description of the operation of a practical stable free society as the
        libertarian target". This appears to be because they (and it seems
        almost all other libertarians) think that they know the form,
        structure and methods of operation of the free society that is the
        target of each of them. In opposition to this, I maintain that the
        major reason why libertarians are not getting anywhere towards their
        "goal" is that they have never had any adequate description of a
        practically operational free society (and in fact that each of them
        have quite different ideas about how such a free society would
        operate). I submit that this is little different than starting on a
        journey to a destination before one has decided exactly what the
        destination will be, which naturally leads to everyone going off in
        different directions, exactly as libertarians, objectivists,
        market-anarchists, etc. have always done.

        I have now reached a new stage of completion of a multi-decade but 4
        year dedicated effort to provide the foundations and the practical
        operating methods of a stable well-ordered free society without any
        institutions or anything which could be called a government.

        The "practical plan" (of getting from here to there) has been
        described briefly on the website since the beginning and is also
        implicit within the foundational ideas and the proposed methods of
        operation of the described free society.

        I invite critical comments from anyone and everyone.

        --Paul Wakfer

        MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
        Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
        The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
        Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting


        --- In libertarian-nation@yahoogroups.com, Paul Antonik Wakfer
        <paul@...> wrote:
        >
        > -------- Original Message --------
        > Subject: Re: Violence and the State
        > Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:38:55 -0800
        > From: Butler Shaffer <bshaffer@...>
        > To: Paul Antonik Wakfer <paul@...>
        > CC: libertarian-nation@yahoogroups.com,
        > molinari-institute@yahoogroups.com, Lew Rockwell <lew@...>
        > References: <d25meo+vfa7@...> <42479938.8090206@...>
        >
        > Paul:
        >
        > Why don't you provide such a "practical plan" and e-mail it to Lew
        > Rockwell? We all might find it of interest.
        >
        > Butler
        > ---------------------------------------------
        >
        > And
        >
        > -------- Original Message --------
        > Subject: Re: Violence and the State
        > Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:09:31 -0800
        > From: Lew Rockwell <lhrockwell@...>
        > To: <paul@...>
        > References: <d25meo+vfa7@...> <42479938.8090206@...>
        >
        > The Plan is your job, sir. Come up with it.
        > ---------------------------
        >
        > Lew and Butler,
        >
        > Thanks for the invitation (and the challenge :)
        > I certainly plan to respond.
        > I have had both a "target" stably self-ordered free society as
        > theory, implementation and descriptive notes (annotations):
        > http://selfsip.org/fundamentals/socialmetaneeds.html
        > http://selfsip.org/solutions/socialcontract_annotated.html
        > and a method by which I think it can be attained:
        > The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - see http://selfsip.org
        > online for sometime.
        >
        > The "target" is constantly undergoing fine tuning as I read, think and
        > discuss with others. Recently this resulted in a need to make a major
        > rewrite when it became clear that my current online target
        > implementation was still far too "interim" (ie. too close to and biased
        > by current social norms). I am now in the middle of this rewrite, but
        > when it is complete and online I will write and send to you an
        > introductory article of brief description of its essentials, including
        > why I am convinced it provides both a "practical stable free society --
        > and a comprehensive practical plan to get there".
        >
        > In the meantime you or anyone else who is interested can examine the
        > above URL's to get a good idea of what I am proposing.
        >
        > Again thanks for your response,
        >
        > --Paul Wakfer
        >
        >
        > > Paul Antonik Wakfer wrote:
        > >
        > >> rg415wbfa wrote:
        > >>
        > >>>
        > >>> http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer99.html
        > >>>
        > >>> Violence and the State
        > >>>
        > >>> by Butler Shaffer
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> This is yet another piece by Butler Shaffer which, like so many
        > >> similar pieces constantly published by others, appears to have no
        > >> other real purpose but to incite the libertarian multitude to
        cries of
        > >> "Ya! Ya!".
        > >>
        > >> Does Shaffer really think that the message of his piece is not
        > >> transparently obvious to any thinking libertarian (and is there
        really
        > >> any purpose in addressing the rest?). Even if it is not, what good
        > >> does it do any libertarian? - who already knows that state ideas,
        > >> influence and power must be greatly reduced or eliminated entirely.
        > >>
        > >> If this is meant for non-libertarians, then how is it reaching them
        > >> and just what solution is it suggesting to them?
        > >> If it is meant as "intellectual ammunition" to help libertarians
        reach
        > >> out and convince non-libertarians that the state must be reduced
        > >> and/or eliminated (which would certainly be a worthwhile thing to
        > >> provide), then I fail to see how it is accomplishing that purpose.
        > >>
        > >> Rather than more rants and complaints about what all thinking
        > >> libertarians know is wrong in so many, many ways, what is needed
        is a
        > >> clear description of the operation of a practical stable free
        society
        > >> as the libertarian target and a comprehensive practical plan to get
        > >> there.
        > >>
        > >> --Paul Wakfer
        > >>
        > >> MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
        > >> Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
        > >> The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
        > >> Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting
        >
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