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Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual advance'?

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  • Colin
    ... lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, ... his ... married ... expression ... Cheers, Cazzie I should think. I imagine he was quite a charmer...
    Message 1 of 16 , May 2 6:08 PM
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      --- In
      lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
      "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:
      > wrote:
      > > So, how exactly did CLD address
      his
      > > 'old child friends' and
      'married
      > > woman friends'?
      > > Colin (puzzled - with
      expression
      > > like badly stuffed Dodo)
      >
      > Something like "Hiya Jade" or
      "Cheers, Cazzie" I should think.
      I imagine he was quite a charmer...
    • Keith Wright
      Colin, if you check in his letters you will see that in general he obeyed the rules of society as they were at that time. With Isa Bowman for example he did
      Message 2 of 16 , May 3 12:03 AM
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        Colin,

        if you check in his letters you will see that in general he obeyed the rules
        of society as they were at that time.

        With Isa Bowman for example he did address her as 'my darling Isa, in
        letters but by then he was in his 50's and she was in her teens so this was
        unusual for the time. The examples of him breaking with convention atre far
        outweighed by him being solely conventional to the strict rules of society.
        If you read Isa's book you will see that when she broke the rules with him
        when in company he severly reprimanded her and she apologised.

        How he addressed someone upon meeting them is not known but he wasn't known
        for outrageous behaviour so presumably he never said the victorian
        equivalent of 'hiya!'

        Keith W



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Colin" <c.forcey@...>
        To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 2:08 AM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual
        advance'?


        > --- In
        > lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
        > "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:
        > > wrote:
        > > > So, how exactly did CLD address
        > his
        > > > 'old child friends' and
        > 'married
        > > > woman friends'?
        > > > Colin (puzzled - with
        > expression
        > > > like badly stuffed Dodo)
        > >
        > > Something like "Hiya Jade" or
        > "Cheers, Cazzie" I should think.
        > I imagine he was quite a charmer...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > visit our homepage at:
        >
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      • Colin
        Thanks for the clarification, Keith. I imagine first name addresses were used for children, servants and lovers, like the French tutoiment . I suppose the
        Message 3 of 16 , May 3 4:26 AM
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          Thanks for the clarification,
          Keith. I imagine first name
          addresses were used for children,
          servants and lovers, like the
          French 'tutoiment'. I suppose the
          regular use of first name addresses
          is a product of the 60's (perhaps
          Dustin Hoffman addressing Mrs
          Robinson as 'Mrs Robinson' in 'The
          Graduate' was the last - ironic -
          signal of the demise of the old
          order).
          Colin
          --- In
          lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
          "Keith Wright" <keith@c...> wrote:
          > Colin,
          >
          > if you check in his letters you
          will see that in general he obeyed
          the rules
          > of society as they were at that
          time.
          >
          > With Isa Bowman for example he
          did address her as 'my darling Isa,
          in
          > letters but by then he was in his
          50's and she was in her teens so
          this was
          > unusual for the time. The
          examples of him breaking with
          convention atre far
          > outweighed by him being solely
          conventional to the strict rules of
          society.
          > If you read Isa's book you will
          see that when she broke the rules
          with him
          > when in company he severly
          reprimanded her and she apologised.
          >
          > How he addressed someone upon
          meeting them is not known but he
          wasn't known
          > for outrageous behaviour so
          presumably he never said the
          victorian
          > equivalent of 'hiya!'
          >
          > Keith W
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Colin" <c.forcey@l...>
          > To:
          <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 2:08
          AM
          > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: using
          Christan names - 'akin to a sexual
          > advance'?
          >
          >
          > > --- In
          > > lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
          > > "jenny2write" <woolf@j...>
          wrote:
          > > > wrote:
          > > > > So, how exactly did CLD
          address
          > > his
          > > > > 'old child friends' and
          > > 'married
          > > > > woman friends'?
          > > > > Colin (puzzled - with
          > > expression
          > > > > like badly stuffed Dodo)
          > > >
          > > > Something like "Hiya Jade" or
          > > "Cheers, Cazzie" I should
          think.
          > > I imagine he was quite a
          charmer...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > visit our homepage at:
          > >
          > >
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewis
          carroll/
          > >
          > > to unsubscribe send a blank
          email to:
          > lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogro
          ups.com
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • mikeindex2001
          ... That s about right, yes - and relatives, of course. In a letter to Julia Arnold (June 7 1880, Letters p. 382), CLD wrote of a girl he knew slightly, I
          Message 4 of 16 , May 3 6:27 AM
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            Colin wrote:
            > I imagine first name
            > addresses were used for children,
            > servants and lovers, like the
            > French 'tutoiment'.

            That's about right, yes - and relatives, of course. In a letter to
            Julia Arnold (June 7 1880, Letters p. 382), CLD wrote of a girl he
            knew slightly, 'I don't know her Christian name, and even if I did,
            perhpas she would prefer to be called Miss Drage'. As Gertrude Drage
            seems to have been about 17 at the time this was presumably the point
            around which such intimacy was felt to become unacceptable (other
            than to servants, relatives or lovers).

            CLD however in his later years was writing to literally dozens of
            women anywhere between 18 and 50 whom he addressed as 'my dear
            Bee/Ethel/Florrie/etc.'; some he had not even known as children, and
            with several he continued the practice even afer marriage. Elizabeth
            Hill, nee Hussey, only 20 years younger than CLD himself, was
            still 'my dear Bessie' well into her forties; Mary Fuller (nee Drury)
            and Kathleen Round (nee Eschwege) were 'my dear Minnie' and 'my dear
            Kathleen' at thirty-odd. On 1 January 1895 he began a letter to the
            newly-wed 23-year-old Winifred Hawke, nee Stevens:

            'My dear Winifred,
            No - I am NOT going to address you as "Mrs Hawke"! You may expect it
            as much as you like, but I SHAN'T DO IT!'

            and signed off,

            'Your loving friend, C.L. Dodgson'.

            The remark made in the Trollope documentary maybe puts in perspective
            just what an outrageous floutingg of social propriety this was.

            Cheers

            Mike
          • Ruth Berman
            ... Hawke, nee Stevens: My dear Winifred, No - I am NOT going to address you as Mrs Hawke ! You may expect it as much as you like, but I SHAN T DO IT! and
            Message 5 of 16 , May 3 7:17 AM
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              "mikeindex2001" <alphabeticalorder@...> wrote:
              > On 1 January 1895 he began a letter to the newly-wed 23-year-old Winifred
              Hawke, nee Stevens: 'My dear Winifred, No - I am NOT going to address you as
              "Mrs Hawke"! You may expect it as much as you like, but I SHAN'T DO IT!'
              and signed off, 'Your loving friend, C.L. Dodgson'.
              The remark made in the Trollope documentary maybe puts in perspective just
              what an outrageous floutingg of social propriety this was. >

              It wasn't all that outrageous. If you'd met someone who was then a child and
              at that time used the child's first name, it was fairly common to go on
              doing so after the child reached adulthood. Mr. Peggotty and Steerforth in
              "David Copperfield," for instance, go on calling David "Mas'r Davy" and
              "Daisy" after he is grown.

              Ruth Berman
            • Karoline Leach
              But, as Mike mentioned, he d met several of these women when there were NOT children. I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was
              Message 6 of 16 , May 3 11:39 PM
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                But, as Mike mentioned, he'd met several of these women when there were NOT children.
                 
                I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was interacting with his society we probably need to do more research on this. I hope someone does.
                 
                Karoline Leach
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 3:17 PM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual advance'?

                "mikeindex2001" <alphabeticalorder@...> wrote:
                > On 1 January 1895 he began a letter to the newly-wed 23-year-old Winifred
                Hawke, nee Stevens: 'My dear Winifred, No - I am NOT going to address you as
                "Mrs Hawke"!  You may expect it as much as you like, but I SHAN'T DO IT!'
                and signed off, 'Your loving friend, C.L. Dodgson'.
                The remark made in the Trollope documentary maybe puts in perspective  just
                what an outrageous floutingg of social propriety this was. >

                It wasn't all that outrageous. If you'd met someone who was then a child and
                at that time used the child's first name, it was fairly common to go on
                doing so after the child reached adulthood. Mr. Peggotty and Steerforth in
                "David Copperfield," for instance, go on calling David "Mas'r Davy" and
                "Daisy" after he is grown.

                Ruth Berman



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              • Jlsperanza@aol.com
                In a message dated 5/4/2004 2:39:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Karoline@historyisfiction.fsnet.co.uk writes: But, as Mike mentioned, he d met several of these
                Message 7 of 16 , May 4 6:35 AM
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                  In a message dated 5/4/2004 2:39:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Karoline@... writes:
                  But, as Mike mentioned, he'd met several of these women when there were NOT children.
                   
                  I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was interacting with his society we probably need to do more research on this. I hope someone does.
                  ---
                   
                  Wonder if he ever met a non-Christian female (young or other). I don't think the logician in him would still refer to this as a matter of 'Christian' names.
                   
                  Interesting too how he would interact with males. I suppose he called "Tenniel" Tenniel, and his Papa, "Papa"?
                   
                  Cheers,

                  JL
                   
                • Keith Wright
                  In his diary he would refer to his male colleagues by their surname only, even Liddon who he went on holiday to Russia with in 1867 is referred to throughout
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 4 8:17 AM
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                    In his diary he would refer to his male colleagues by their surname only, even Liddon who he went on holiday to Russia with in 1867 is referred to throughout his journal as 'Liddon.'
                     
                    This situation certainly continue to be that way into the nineteen fifties it wasn't just in Victorian days that formality was observed. 
                     
                    For strangers he would write about them as Mr. ????? and it is quite likely that he did not know their Christian names.
                     
                    Read the diaries and you will soon get the system in your mind.  How he addressed someone in the street is debatable but my guess is he would have to know them from an introduction before he spoke at all, even then he would called them by their surname, 'Liddon' for a colleague but Mr. Liddon for someone he only had a passing acquaintance with.  The university solved the problems of the higher ranks by giving them completely unjustified D.D.'s then he would call whoever Doctor ??? as he would with Liddell probably if he didn't refer to him as the Dean.
                     
                    The class system also had a bearing on who he could address and who he couldn't, whether he knew them or not.  i.e. he failed to acknowledge Lord Rosebery because he though Rosebery outranked him and he would be risking a snub if he addressed him first despite the fact that he had taught Rosebery as a student years beforehand.  This was shortly before Rosebery became P.M. He later wrote to Rosebery in his usual manner, explaining in great detail why he had not addressed him and telling Rosebery he should have acknowledge him first.  Rosebery, knowing he was the authgor of A.in W. replied in an encouraging vain and calm was restored by Rosebery's kids getting a signed copy of A.W and TTLG.
                     
                    The whole system depended upon where folk perceived you were in class as well as where you considered yourself to be. 
                     
                    Keith W
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 2:35 PM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual advance'?

                    In a message dated 5/4/2004 2:39:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Karoline@... writes:
                    But, as Mike mentioned, he'd met several of these women when there were NOT children.
                     
                    I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was interacting with his society we probably need to do more research on this. I hope someone does.
                    ---
                     
                    Wonder if he ever met a non-Christian female (young or other). I don't think the logician in him would still refer to this as a matter of 'Christian' names.
                     
                    Interesting too how he would interact with males. I suppose he called "Tenniel" Tenniel, and his Papa, "Papa"?
                     
                    Cheers,

                    JL
                     


                    visit our homepage  at:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

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                  • jenny2write
                    ... class as well as where you considered yourself to be. So right! I have a contemporary Victorian etiquette book which tells you which people you should
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 4 11:27 AM
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                      >
                      > The whole system depended upon where folk perceived you were in
                      class as well as where you considered yourself to be.

                      So right! I have a contemporary Victorian etiquette book which tells
                      you which people you should acknowledge, and how - some you can speak
                      to, some you only nod to, others you don't acknowledge at all. Life
                      must have been a minefield of potential faux pas.

                      I have another question - should be able to answer it but I can't
                      seem to find the information. Sometime in the 1880s Carroll wrote an
                      essay looking back on ALice in Wonderland and saying why he wrote it,
                      whow he perceived the characters, etc. Alice was, for instance, as
                      faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to say) Anyway please does
                      anyone know the name and date of this essay? I think it was in a
                      theatre magazine of some kind. Jenny.
                    • Ruth Berman
                      ... Wonderland and saying why he wrote it, whow he perceived the characters, etc. Alice was, for instance, a faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to say)
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 4 12:08 PM
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                        "jenny2write" <woolf@...> wrote:
                        > Sometime in the 1880s Carroll wrote an essay looking back on ALice in
                        Wonderland and saying why he wrote it, whow he perceived the characters,
                        etc. Alice was, for instance, a faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to
                        say) Anyway please does anyone know the name and date of this essay? <

                        Doesn't Morton Cohen reprint that essay as a footnote in the "Letters"?

                        Ruth Berman
                      • jenny2write
                        , ... thing to ... essay?
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 4 1:42 PM
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                          ,
                          > etc. Alice was, for instance, a faithful as a dog (? rather odd
                          thing to
                          > say) Anyway please does anyone know the name and date of this
                          essay? <
                          >
                          > Doesn't Morton Cohen reprint that essay as a footnote in
                          the "Letters"?
                          >
                          Don't think so - I have looked but not succeeded in spotting it. Do
                          you happen to know which page?
                        • lenny_de_rooy
                          ... In Gardner s Annotated Alice, he quotes passages of this article. He refers to it as Alice on Stage (The Theatre, april 1887)
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 5 3:06 AM
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                            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:

                            > I have another question - should be able to answer it but I can't
                            > seem to find the information. Sometime in the 1880s Carroll wrote an
                            > essay looking back on ALice in Wonderland and saying why he wrote it,
                            > whow he perceived the characters, etc. Alice was, for instance, as
                            > faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to say) Anyway please does
                            > anyone know the name and date of this essay? I think it was in a
                            > theatre magazine of some kind. Jenny.

                            In Gardner's Annotated Alice, he quotes passages of this article. He
                            refers to it as 'Alice on Stage' (The Theatre, april 1887)
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