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Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual advance'?

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  • jenny2write
    ... Something like Hiya Jade or Cheers, Cazzie I should think.
    Message 1 of 16 , May 2, 2004
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      wrote:
      > So, how exactly did CLD address his
      > 'old child friends' and 'married
      > woman friends'?
      > Colin (puzzled - with expression
      > like badly stuffed Dodo)

      Something like "Hiya Jade" or "Cheers, Cazzie" I should think.
    • Colin
      ... lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, ... his ... married ... expression ... Cheers, Cazzie I should think. I imagine he was quite a charmer...
      Message 2 of 16 , May 2, 2004
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        --- In
        lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
        "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:
        > wrote:
        > > So, how exactly did CLD address
        his
        > > 'old child friends' and
        'married
        > > woman friends'?
        > > Colin (puzzled - with
        expression
        > > like badly stuffed Dodo)
        >
        > Something like "Hiya Jade" or
        "Cheers, Cazzie" I should think.
        I imagine he was quite a charmer...
      • Keith Wright
        Colin, if you check in his letters you will see that in general he obeyed the rules of society as they were at that time. With Isa Bowman for example he did
        Message 3 of 16 , May 3, 2004
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          Colin,

          if you check in his letters you will see that in general he obeyed the rules
          of society as they were at that time.

          With Isa Bowman for example he did address her as 'my darling Isa, in
          letters but by then he was in his 50's and she was in her teens so this was
          unusual for the time. The examples of him breaking with convention atre far
          outweighed by him being solely conventional to the strict rules of society.
          If you read Isa's book you will see that when she broke the rules with him
          when in company he severly reprimanded her and she apologised.

          How he addressed someone upon meeting them is not known but he wasn't known
          for outrageous behaviour so presumably he never said the victorian
          equivalent of 'hiya!'

          Keith W



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Colin" <c.forcey@...>
          To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 2:08 AM
          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual
          advance'?


          > --- In
          > lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
          > "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:
          > > wrote:
          > > > So, how exactly did CLD address
          > his
          > > > 'old child friends' and
          > 'married
          > > > woman friends'?
          > > > Colin (puzzled - with
          > expression
          > > > like badly stuffed Dodo)
          > >
          > > Something like "Hiya Jade" or
          > "Cheers, Cazzie" I should think.
          > I imagine he was quite a charmer...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > visit our homepage at:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/
          >
          > to unsubscribe send a blank email to:
          lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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          >
          >
          >
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        • Colin
          Thanks for the clarification, Keith. I imagine first name addresses were used for children, servants and lovers, like the French tutoiment . I suppose the
          Message 4 of 16 , May 3, 2004
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            Thanks for the clarification,
            Keith. I imagine first name
            addresses were used for children,
            servants and lovers, like the
            French 'tutoiment'. I suppose the
            regular use of first name addresses
            is a product of the 60's (perhaps
            Dustin Hoffman addressing Mrs
            Robinson as 'Mrs Robinson' in 'The
            Graduate' was the last - ironic -
            signal of the demise of the old
            order).
            Colin
            --- In
            lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
            "Keith Wright" <keith@c...> wrote:
            > Colin,
            >
            > if you check in his letters you
            will see that in general he obeyed
            the rules
            > of society as they were at that
            time.
            >
            > With Isa Bowman for example he
            did address her as 'my darling Isa,
            in
            > letters but by then he was in his
            50's and she was in her teens so
            this was
            > unusual for the time. The
            examples of him breaking with
            convention atre far
            > outweighed by him being solely
            conventional to the strict rules of
            society.
            > If you read Isa's book you will
            see that when she broke the rules
            with him
            > when in company he severly
            reprimanded her and she apologised.
            >
            > How he addressed someone upon
            meeting them is not known but he
            wasn't known
            > for outrageous behaviour so
            presumably he never said the
            victorian
            > equivalent of 'hiya!'
            >
            > Keith W
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Colin" <c.forcey@l...>
            > To:
            <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 2:08
            AM
            > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: using
            Christan names - 'akin to a sexual
            > advance'?
            >
            >
            > > --- In
            > > lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "jenny2write" <woolf@j...>
            wrote:
            > > > wrote:
            > > > > So, how exactly did CLD
            address
            > > his
            > > > > 'old child friends' and
            > > 'married
            > > > > woman friends'?
            > > > > Colin (puzzled - with
            > > expression
            > > > > like badly stuffed Dodo)
            > > >
            > > > Something like "Hiya Jade" or
            > > "Cheers, Cazzie" I should
            think.
            > > I imagine he was quite a
            charmer...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > visit our homepage at:
            > >
            > >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewis
            carroll/
            > >
            > > to unsubscribe send a blank
            email to:
            > lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogro
            ups.com
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • mikeindex2001
            ... That s about right, yes - and relatives, of course. In a letter to Julia Arnold (June 7 1880, Letters p. 382), CLD wrote of a girl he knew slightly, I
            Message 5 of 16 , May 3, 2004
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              Colin wrote:
              > I imagine first name
              > addresses were used for children,
              > servants and lovers, like the
              > French 'tutoiment'.

              That's about right, yes - and relatives, of course. In a letter to
              Julia Arnold (June 7 1880, Letters p. 382), CLD wrote of a girl he
              knew slightly, 'I don't know her Christian name, and even if I did,
              perhpas she would prefer to be called Miss Drage'. As Gertrude Drage
              seems to have been about 17 at the time this was presumably the point
              around which such intimacy was felt to become unacceptable (other
              than to servants, relatives or lovers).

              CLD however in his later years was writing to literally dozens of
              women anywhere between 18 and 50 whom he addressed as 'my dear
              Bee/Ethel/Florrie/etc.'; some he had not even known as children, and
              with several he continued the practice even afer marriage. Elizabeth
              Hill, nee Hussey, only 20 years younger than CLD himself, was
              still 'my dear Bessie' well into her forties; Mary Fuller (nee Drury)
              and Kathleen Round (nee Eschwege) were 'my dear Minnie' and 'my dear
              Kathleen' at thirty-odd. On 1 January 1895 he began a letter to the
              newly-wed 23-year-old Winifred Hawke, nee Stevens:

              'My dear Winifred,
              No - I am NOT going to address you as "Mrs Hawke"! You may expect it
              as much as you like, but I SHAN'T DO IT!'

              and signed off,

              'Your loving friend, C.L. Dodgson'.

              The remark made in the Trollope documentary maybe puts in perspective
              just what an outrageous floutingg of social propriety this was.

              Cheers

              Mike
            • Ruth Berman
              ... Hawke, nee Stevens: My dear Winifred, No - I am NOT going to address you as Mrs Hawke ! You may expect it as much as you like, but I SHAN T DO IT! and
              Message 6 of 16 , May 3, 2004
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                "mikeindex2001" <alphabeticalorder@...> wrote:
                > On 1 January 1895 he began a letter to the newly-wed 23-year-old Winifred
                Hawke, nee Stevens: 'My dear Winifred, No - I am NOT going to address you as
                "Mrs Hawke"! You may expect it as much as you like, but I SHAN'T DO IT!'
                and signed off, 'Your loving friend, C.L. Dodgson'.
                The remark made in the Trollope documentary maybe puts in perspective just
                what an outrageous floutingg of social propriety this was. >

                It wasn't all that outrageous. If you'd met someone who was then a child and
                at that time used the child's first name, it was fairly common to go on
                doing so after the child reached adulthood. Mr. Peggotty and Steerforth in
                "David Copperfield," for instance, go on calling David "Mas'r Davy" and
                "Daisy" after he is grown.

                Ruth Berman
              • Karoline Leach
                But, as Mike mentioned, he d met several of these women when there were NOT children. I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was
                Message 7 of 16 , May 3, 2004
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                  But, as Mike mentioned, he'd met several of these women when there were NOT children.
                   
                  I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was interacting with his society we probably need to do more research on this. I hope someone does.
                   
                  Karoline Leach
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 3:17 PM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual advance'?

                  "mikeindex2001" <alphabeticalorder@...> wrote:
                  > On 1 January 1895 he began a letter to the newly-wed 23-year-old Winifred
                  Hawke, nee Stevens: 'My dear Winifred, No - I am NOT going to address you as
                  "Mrs Hawke"!  You may expect it as much as you like, but I SHAN'T DO IT!'
                  and signed off, 'Your loving friend, C.L. Dodgson'.
                  The remark made in the Trollope documentary maybe puts in perspective  just
                  what an outrageous floutingg of social propriety this was. >

                  It wasn't all that outrageous. If you'd met someone who was then a child and
                  at that time used the child's first name, it was fairly common to go on
                  doing so after the child reached adulthood. Mr. Peggotty and Steerforth in
                  "David Copperfield," for instance, go on calling David "Mas'r Davy" and
                  "Daisy" after he is grown.

                  Ruth Berman



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                • Jlsperanza@aol.com
                  In a message dated 5/4/2004 2:39:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Karoline@historyisfiction.fsnet.co.uk writes: But, as Mike mentioned, he d met several of these
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 4, 2004
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                    In a message dated 5/4/2004 2:39:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Karoline@... writes:
                    But, as Mike mentioned, he'd met several of these women when there were NOT children.
                     
                    I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was interacting with his society we probably need to do more research on this. I hope someone does.
                    ---
                     
                    Wonder if he ever met a non-Christian female (young or other). I don't think the logician in him would still refer to this as a matter of 'Christian' names.
                     
                    Interesting too how he would interact with males. I suppose he called "Tenniel" Tenniel, and his Papa, "Papa"?
                     
                    Cheers,

                    JL
                     
                  • Keith Wright
                    In his diary he would refer to his male colleagues by their surname only, even Liddon who he went on holiday to Russia with in 1867 is referred to throughout
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 4, 2004
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                      In his diary he would refer to his male colleagues by their surname only, even Liddon who he went on holiday to Russia with in 1867 is referred to throughout his journal as 'Liddon.'
                       
                      This situation certainly continue to be that way into the nineteen fifties it wasn't just in Victorian days that formality was observed. 
                       
                      For strangers he would write about them as Mr. ????? and it is quite likely that he did not know their Christian names.
                       
                      Read the diaries and you will soon get the system in your mind.  How he addressed someone in the street is debatable but my guess is he would have to know them from an introduction before he spoke at all, even then he would called them by their surname, 'Liddon' for a colleague but Mr. Liddon for someone he only had a passing acquaintance with.  The university solved the problems of the higher ranks by giving them completely unjustified D.D.'s then he would call whoever Doctor ??? as he would with Liddell probably if he didn't refer to him as the Dean.
                       
                      The class system also had a bearing on who he could address and who he couldn't, whether he knew them or not.  i.e. he failed to acknowledge Lord Rosebery because he though Rosebery outranked him and he would be risking a snub if he addressed him first despite the fact that he had taught Rosebery as a student years beforehand.  This was shortly before Rosebery became P.M. He later wrote to Rosebery in his usual manner, explaining in great detail why he had not addressed him and telling Rosebery he should have acknowledge him first.  Rosebery, knowing he was the authgor of A.in W. replied in an encouraging vain and calm was restored by Rosebery's kids getting a signed copy of A.W and TTLG.
                       
                      The whole system depended upon where folk perceived you were in class as well as where you considered yourself to be. 
                       
                      Keith W
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 2:35 PM
                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: using Christan names - 'akin to a sexual advance'?

                      In a message dated 5/4/2004 2:39:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Karoline@... writes:
                      But, as Mike mentioned, he'd met several of these women when there were NOT children.
                       
                      I really think that if we want to understand exactly how CLD was interacting with his society we probably need to do more research on this. I hope someone does.
                      ---
                       
                      Wonder if he ever met a non-Christian female (young or other). I don't think the logician in him would still refer to this as a matter of 'Christian' names.
                       
                      Interesting too how he would interact with males. I suppose he called "Tenniel" Tenniel, and his Papa, "Papa"?
                       
                      Cheers,

                      JL
                       


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                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

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                    • jenny2write
                      ... class as well as where you considered yourself to be. So right! I have a contemporary Victorian etiquette book which tells you which people you should
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 4, 2004
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                        >
                        > The whole system depended upon where folk perceived you were in
                        class as well as where you considered yourself to be.

                        So right! I have a contemporary Victorian etiquette book which tells
                        you which people you should acknowledge, and how - some you can speak
                        to, some you only nod to, others you don't acknowledge at all. Life
                        must have been a minefield of potential faux pas.

                        I have another question - should be able to answer it but I can't
                        seem to find the information. Sometime in the 1880s Carroll wrote an
                        essay looking back on ALice in Wonderland and saying why he wrote it,
                        whow he perceived the characters, etc. Alice was, for instance, as
                        faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to say) Anyway please does
                        anyone know the name and date of this essay? I think it was in a
                        theatre magazine of some kind. Jenny.
                      • Ruth Berman
                        ... Wonderland and saying why he wrote it, whow he perceived the characters, etc. Alice was, for instance, a faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to say)
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 4, 2004
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                          "jenny2write" <woolf@...> wrote:
                          > Sometime in the 1880s Carroll wrote an essay looking back on ALice in
                          Wonderland and saying why he wrote it, whow he perceived the characters,
                          etc. Alice was, for instance, a faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to
                          say) Anyway please does anyone know the name and date of this essay? <

                          Doesn't Morton Cohen reprint that essay as a footnote in the "Letters"?

                          Ruth Berman
                        • jenny2write
                          , ... thing to ... essay?
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 4, 2004
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                            ,
                            > etc. Alice was, for instance, a faithful as a dog (? rather odd
                            thing to
                            > say) Anyway please does anyone know the name and date of this
                            essay? <
                            >
                            > Doesn't Morton Cohen reprint that essay as a footnote in
                            the "Letters"?
                            >
                            Don't think so - I have looked but not succeeded in spotting it. Do
                            you happen to know which page?
                          • lenny_de_rooy
                            ... In Gardner s Annotated Alice, he quotes passages of this article. He refers to it as Alice on Stage (The Theatre, april 1887)
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 5, 2004
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                              --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:

                              > I have another question - should be able to answer it but I can't
                              > seem to find the information. Sometime in the 1880s Carroll wrote an
                              > essay looking back on ALice in Wonderland and saying why he wrote it,
                              > whow he perceived the characters, etc. Alice was, for instance, as
                              > faithful as a dog (? rather odd thing to say) Anyway please does
                              > anyone know the name and date of this essay? I think it was in a
                              > theatre magazine of some kind. Jenny.

                              In Gardner's Annotated Alice, he quotes passages of this article. He
                              refers to it as 'Alice on Stage' (The Theatre, april 1887)
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