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The Carrollian

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  • mikeindex2001
    The new issue of The Carrollian is out and includes at least one article by a member of the list - Karoline Leach, and another by a gentleman I think is also
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 3, 2004
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      The new issue of 'The Carrollian' is out and includes at least
      one article by a member of the list - Karoline Leach, and another by
      a gentleman I think is also a member under a sobriquet - Matthew
      Demakos.

      The first is an analysis of Anne Thackeray's 'From an Island', in
      which LC features as the romantic hero, and the second is a further
      episode of Demakos'ongoing analysis of 'Hiawatha's Photographing'.
      I recommend reading them both.

      Also of interest is an article by a gentleman called Gerald Stanhill,
      whose name I hadn't come across before, on potential connections
      between LC and the Jewish Kabbalah.

      In an interesting twist he spends the first part of the article
      setting out an inferential case - which has also been made by Kate
      Lyon - for why
      LC may have been interested in the Kabbala, but then he uses the
      second part of his article to debunk the same possibility!

      His point that LC's diaries, library and extant writing show no hint
      of interest in the Kabbala is obviously valid - but does this
      justify
      a conclusion that he was therefore simply a devout and unquestioning
      Anglican?

      I don't think so, for although there is no evidence of interest in
      the Kabbala, there is plentiful evidence - from his refusal to take
      priest's orders to his interest in Theosophy - that suggests a very
      doubting, questing attitude to religion, even if he did balk ad
      open;ly admitting this.

      I wonder if Kate has anything to add?

      cheers
      Mike
    • Keith Wright
      Mike, having read the article in the Carrolian it would appear that Miss Thackeray had CLD right! Karoline says as much on page 17 of the Carrollian although
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 3, 2004
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        Mike,

        having read the article in the Carrolian it would appear that Miss Thackeray
        had CLD right!

        Karoline says as much on page 17 of the Carrollian although Dodgson was not
        so sure he would be invited in to the Tennyson household as K would assert
        and took a ribbing from his brother about chasing Tennyson. However, he was
        prepared to make the attempt and suffer a rebuttal if the need arose.

        Dodgson was focussed and ambitious but what we do not understand was his
        values. He was not ambitious to gain high office, he made sure of that by
        not taking holy orders. He was not ambitious about worldly possessions
        giving most of the money he made from his books to others. He had a good
        degree, far better than many of his contemporaries who made it to high
        office, yet he chose not to.

        I'm very wary of attributing everything we do not know to this mysterious
        era when the diaries are missing. My reasons are simple, when we read the
        diaries that are there we gain very little about his motives and feelings
        from them.

        Dodgson was supremely confident of his position regarding the church and
        although he was friendly with various churchmen including F.D.Maurice he
        made no declarations of support for the liberals or for the Romanists, he
        simply went his own way.

        The timing of things may be a clue as to what happened on the Isle of Wight
        during the 1860's. In 1863 CLD was an unknown don from Oxford who was
        rather good at photography. Tennyson had CLD's pictures framed and on the
        wall at Farringford despite having had images taken of his sons by
        professionals. By the time Thackeray wrote and published her novel in 1877
        CLD was Lewis Carroll and already well on the way to becoming world famous.
        He just had to be included in the book and one wonders if he would have been
        in there if he had not made the grade? Many other non famous people visited
        the Tennysons and did not find themselves in this book! Tennyson throughout
        his life made no acknowledgement of LC simply putting his first editions of
        both Alice books in his library where 'TTLG' remains to this date in
        pristine condition as if unread. 'Alice' apparently was in the same
        condition until it was stolen.

        Keith
      • jenny2write
        Interesting points, Keith. And Karoline s article is very interesting, as ever. But although I think on balance that Hexham probably WAS CLD, it is always
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 5, 2004
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          Interesting points, Keith. And Karoline's article is very
          interesting, as ever. But although I think on balance that "Hexham"
          probably WAS CLD, it is always possible, you know, that he wasn't.
          The only real clincher is that Miss T apparently said he was, and his
          physical description, though brief, seems to more or less match, -
          though not completely.

          I have not seen the copy of the book in which Miss T wrote this
          comment, although one of her descendants (who doesn't seem to know
          much about much) says in her introduction to the reprint "From An
          Island" that Miss T's copy of her book identified Lewis Carroll with
          Hexham. My doubts intensify when I think that perhaps (as you
          suggest, Keith) she only decided to include CLD after he became
          famous, because she had known him at the time and wanted to think she
          had put another famous person in her book in disguise. After all we
          do not actually know how closely she observed the individuals she
          mentioned and how closely they were based on the individuals they
          were said to be. For myself, I don't feel I have any insights into
          GF Watts (for instance) after reading the book.

          Also, somewhere or other, I have heard CLD's photographing friend,
          Reginald Southey, mentioned as the original of "Hexham". I believe
          that Southey first visited in 1857 and actually stayed with Julia
          Margaret C as a house guest. Unfortunately I did not make a note of
          where I read this, but it was from a source which was not concerned
          with CLD. (The V & A museum has something about it but at present
          their server seems to be down.

          www.vam.ac.uk/exploring/collections/photography/jmc/biography/)

          Does anyone else know anything else relevant about Southey?

          There is also the matter of the hair. Southey's hair, though long by
          our standards, may have been considered "close cropped " by mid
          Victorian standards. It seems to have been straight and limp. So it
          might be best to cut it short to stop it straggling too much and keep
          it manageable. Hexham's hair was also close cropped, unlike CLD's
          wavy locks which I imagine he had to douse with oil to keep flat and
          close to his head.

          Jenny
        • Keith Wright
          Jenny, nice to see you on the net. The trouble with all of this IOW crowd is that the list of visitors to the Tennyson s was massive and the only credible but
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 5, 2004
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            Jenny,

            nice to see you on the net.

            The trouble with all of this IOW crowd is that the list of visitors to the
            Tennyson's was massive and the only credible but flawed source for who was
            there is Emily Tennyson's journals. These journals have been published in
            full, as edited by Emily and Hallam, and in brief by Brian Hinton taking
            extracts from them but who thoughtlessly never provided his book with an
            index!

            Briefly the visitors that come to mind as being 'famous' are :-

            Allingham, William Poet, lived in Lymington and also did a diary which has
            been published.
            Benson, E.W. Future A.Bish. Cant.
            Bradley, George. Future Dean Westminster.
            Bruce, Augusta - wife of Dean Stanley of Westminster.
            De Vere, Aubrey. Poet.
            Doyle, Richard. Punch artist.
            Garibaldi, (In IOW 1864)
            Jowett, Benjamin. Master of Balliol.
            Kingsley, Charles.
            Lear, Edward.
            Maurice. F.D.
            Millais, John Everett.
            Patmore, Coventry.
            Rejlander, Oscar. Photographer.
            Rossetti, D.G. Artist.
            Taylor, Tom Editor of Punch.
            Trench, R.C. One of the church liberals.
            Tupper, Martin. Poet. Lived near Guildford.
            Watts, G.F. Painter, sculptor.
            Weld, Agnes. CLD's Little Red Riding Hood.
            Wilberforce, Samuel. Rector of Brightstone IOW later Bishop Oxford.
            Woolner, Thomas. Sculptor.

            This list is nowhere near an exhaustive list but it shows the breadth of
            possible inclusions that Thackeray might draw upon for her book. Several
            were known eccentrics and many were caricatured in the press at the time.

            Watts was like the man who came to dinner, he came for a short visit and
            stayed many years. In the course of this the scheming Pattle sisters got
            him to marry the 16 year old Ellen Terry when he was in his forties. The
            marriage broke up from his side and because of JMC and her sister meddling
            in the Watt's business.

            Where this leaves us is I think in total unreality. If Thackeray noticed
            CLD among this bunch of well known but eccentric personalities I would
            rather doubt. If she did it would only be the superficial that would come
            across. Southey at the time was a much more interesting character, better
            at photography than CLD and probably with more nous to butter up JMC whose
            out of focus and technically imperfect offerings would have grated with the
            fastidious CLD., and of course Southey was a nephew of a famous poet. How
            valid a portrait of CLD would be when penned six or seven years later I
            would rather doubt and what I don't know is how valid the portraits are of
            the ones who we are sure she included. I'd suspect that the whole thing was
            a Victorian send up not meant to be taken seriously!

            Keith











            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "jenny2write" <woolf@...>
            To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 10:22 AM
            Subject: [lewiscarroll] CLD at Isle of Wight


            > Interesting points, Keith. And Karoline's article is very
            > interesting, as ever. But although I think on balance that "Hexham"
            > probably WAS CLD, it is always possible, you know, that he wasn't.
            > The only real clincher is that Miss T apparently said he was, and his
            > physical description, though brief, seems to more or less match, -
            > though not completely.
            >
            > I have not seen the copy of the book in which Miss T wrote this
            > comment, although one of her descendants (who doesn't seem to know
            > much about much) says in her introduction to the reprint "From An
            > Island" that Miss T's copy of her book identified Lewis Carroll with
            > Hexham. My doubts intensify when I think that perhaps (as you
            > suggest, Keith) she only decided to include CLD after he became
            > famous, because she had known him at the time and wanted to think she
            > had put another famous person in her book in disguise. After all we
            > do not actually know how closely she observed the individuals she
            > mentioned and how closely they were based on the individuals they
            > were said to be. For myself, I don't feel I have any insights into
            > GF Watts (for instance) after reading the book.
            >
            > Also, somewhere or other, I have heard CLD's photographing friend,
            > Reginald Southey, mentioned as the original of "Hexham". I believe
            > that Southey first visited in 1857 and actually stayed with Julia
            > Margaret C as a house guest. Unfortunately I did not make a note of
            > where I read this, but it was from a source which was not concerned
            > with CLD. (The V & A museum has something about it but at present
            > their server seems to be down.
            >
            > www.vam.ac.uk/exploring/collections/photography/jmc/biography/)
            >
            > Does anyone else know anything else relevant about Southey?
            >
            > There is also the matter of the hair. Southey's hair, though long by
            > our standards, may have been considered "close cropped " by mid
            > Victorian standards. It seems to have been straight and limp. So it
            > might be best to cut it short to stop it straggling too much and keep
            > it manageable. Hexham's hair was also close cropped, unlike CLD's
            > wavy locks which I imagine he had to douse with oil to keep flat and
            > close to his head.
            >
            > Jenny
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > visit our homepage at:
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/
            >
            > to unsubscribe send a blank email to:
            lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Ruth Berman
            ... [Anne Thackerary Ritchie] ... wrote this comment [identifying Carroll with Hexam]
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 7, 2004
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              "jenny2write" <woolf@...> wrote:
              > I have not seen the copy of the book ["From an Island"] in which Miss T
              [Anne Thackerary Ritchie] ... wrote this comment [identifying Carroll with
              Hexam]" <

              I'm told that copies of "From an Island" (the book, that is -- I don't think
              the copy was made from the copy with the note in the margin) will be
              available at the upcoming meeting if a request for one is made on the list
              here. (No mailings possible.) Also that Taylor and Wakeling's book "Lewis
              Carroll: Photographer" has some discussion of the possibility that Hexham
              was Reginald Southey (p. 48).

              I am guessing that the "no mailings possible" note would still mean that a
              non-attendee could ask for a copy, but would have to arrange with someone
              who will be attending to pick up the copy for the non-attending-requester.

              Ruth Berman
            • jenny2write
              ... Miss T ... don t think ... the list ... I meant the original book, Ruth, of course. There is a modern reprint available and I should think many people will
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 8, 2004
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                --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Ruth Berman" <berma005@t...>
                wrote:
                > "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:
                > > I have not seen the copy of the book ["From an Island"] in which
                Miss T
                > [Anne Thackerary Ritchie] ... wrote this comment > Hexam]" <
                >
                > I'm told that copies of "From an Island" (the book, that is -- I
                don't think
                > the copy was made from the copy with the note in the margin) will be
                > available at the upcoming meeting if a request for one is made on
                the list
                > here.

                I meant the original book, Ruth, of course. There is a modern reprint
                available and I should think many people will find it interesting.
                It's just that in order to rely on handwritten annotations I would
                rather have seen them myself -but in this case I haven't seen Miss
                Thackeray's own copy of her book with her handwritten notes on who
                characters are supposed to be.
                Jenny
              • Karoline Leach
                If anyone would like to check out the source for Hexham being LC then contact AT s grand daughter, Belinda Norman-Butler who has the original annotated copy
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 9, 2004
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                  If anyone would like to check out the source for  Hexham being  LC then contact AT's grand daughter, Belinda Norman-Butler who has the original annotated copy and might let you see it.  I was in touch with her a few years ago when I was researching this piece,
                   and I have an address though it might be out of date now. Write to me offlist if you'd like it.
                   
                  But I  think it's  interesting that no one has as far as I know ever questioned the identities of the other 'real' people. It's only   LC's role that seemingly  has to be  put in doubt. It raises the question - would we be  looking so hard for reasons to query  its validity if the portrait of him was more traditional? I'm not sure I can really say we would.
                   
                  Anyhow, as I said before I am deeply honoured to have provoked some  interest in this area and very interested to read the feedback.
                   
                  Karoline Leach
                   
                   
                   

                  I meant the original book, Ruth, of course. There is a modern reprint
                  available and I should think many people will find it interesting.
                  It's just that in order to rely on handwritten annotations I would
                  rather have seen them myself -but in this case I haven't seen Miss
                  Thackeray's own copy of her book with her handwritten notes on who
                  characters are supposed to be. 
                  Jenny



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                • lillienchew
                  Is the Carrollian still in active publication? I was looking on their website, and the archives only go through 2004. There is a message saying that the next
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 21, 2008
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                    Is the Carrollian still in active publication? I was looking on their
                    website, and the archives only go through 2004. There is a message
                    saying that the next issue is expected in Spring 2006. Is it just that
                    the site is out-of-date?

                    -Lucy
                  • Keith
                    Lucy, publication has been irregular but several editions have been published since that message was posted including the spring 2006 edition. Keith From:
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 21, 2008
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                      Lucy,
                       
                      publication has been irregular but several editions have been published since that message was posted including the spring 2006 edition.
                       
                      Keith
                       
                       

                      Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:51 AM
                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] The Carrollian

                      Is the Carrollian still in active publication? I was looking on their
                      website, and the archives only go through 2004. There is a message
                      saying that the next issue is expected in Spring 2006. Is it just that
                      the site is out-of-date?

                      -Lucy

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