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The 'anorexic' theme

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  • Helene Bengtson
    Dear fellow list members, thank you for making this list so interesting. Special thanks to Karoline Leach for her brain-spanking CLD biography, which made
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
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      Dear fellow list members,
      thank you for making this list so interesting.
      Special thanks to Karoline Leach for her brain-spanking CLD biography, which
      made Dodgson's personality make sense to me for the first time!
      I am currently working on intertextual uses of Carroll's life and work, and
      something that keeps popping up is the 'anorexic theme'; the murdering of
      time (as Bloom puts it), CLD's reputed control mania and disgust with large
      appetites, Alice's trouble with food in the stories (either she can't have
      any or it drastically changes her size), etc.
      Apart from what is obviously in the Alice stories, how much of this do you
      think is reality-based, and how much is spin/myth/speculation?

      Helene B.
    • Marcel Cairo
      Helene- I will offer up a possible theory to you about the anorexic theme . This explanation weaves itself in and out of many theosophical challenges and
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
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        Helene-

        I will offer up a possible theory to you about the "anorexic theme". This
        explanation weaves itself in and out of many theosophical challenges and
        battles CLD fought throughout his life.

        When theologians view the battle between Good and Evil, God and Devil in
        terms of action verbs, God is "The Creator". God created the Earth,
        Man/Woman, animals, nature, etc. He also creates miracles and love.

        When you ask people to name the action verb that defines the Devil, they
        invariably say "destroyer". This, however, is not a complete description.

        The Devil is defined by "consumption". The Devil is ruled by insatiable and
        dangerous appetites. He consumes light, love, happiness, and purity to feed
        his own needs. If you look at scripture in both the Old and New Testaments,
        you can see how people's sins are ruled by their appetites (lust, greed,
        desire, etc.). Man/Woman's insatiable appetite, the need to "consume"
        without end, can be seen as a roadmap straight to hell.

        Personally, I believe "Hell" is a self-created black hole. Like in
        astronomy, a black hole is defined as consuming everything that comes within
        its gravitational pull. When we as humans do this, we become self-centered
        and withdraw from friends, lovers and God. I can see this truth in my own
        mirror, in my community, my nation and in the world. Not to say that I am
        a pessimistic person, or am plagued by consumption guilt, not at all.

        Basically what I'm saying is that the real physical manifestation of eating
        for CLD may have symbolically representative for him the battle between good
        and evil, between creation and consumption. As we all know, CLD was a
        "creator", but he struggled daily with his mirror "consuming" self.

        Cheers,
        Marcel
      • Karoline Leach
        This is such an interesting question. From my perspective there is definitely a mythic element to CLD s reputed strangeness over food; it tends to be
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
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          This is such an interesting question.  From my perspective  there is definitely a mythic element to CLD's reputed 'strangeness' over food; it tends to  be incorporated in larger images of his across-the -board  self-denial and general saintliness which I think are rather sweeping and oversimplified.
           
          As I see it CLD was not in general terms a particularly self-denying character.  He indulged in the things he enjoyed, like wine and beer and female company and the theatre and cosy state of the art  gas fires for his home,  and  when he really wanted to do something he tended to be very ingenious about finding ways of justifying or legitimising it to himself so he he could go ahead and do it.
           
          At the same time he does seem to have perceived himself as in some way dangerous or likely to get out of control, and perhaps this does relate to his attitude to food  in later life. As  a younger man he seems to have enjoyed food - at least more than he seems to have later on. But  after hisbrush with 'sin' he seems to start this rather odd process of control and denial of his appetite, which we can find numerous examples of  in his letters etc.
           
          There is his exercise obsession, which does seem to have been a little excessive; his obvious hyper-leanness (in middle age he weighed himself at 143lbs, which is pretty slight for a man of around 6 foot), and - yes- his rather hyped up emphasis on his own abstinence and repeated expressions of distaste for appetites that are out of control.
           
           This could be seen as quite similar in some ways to a kind of anorexia, or a kind of monastic bid to wither the flesh. If we remember his obvious disgust at his own 'weak flesh' during his difficult time in the 1860s, then a kind of 'referred'  bid to subdue it  in this monkish way - even while he continued other 'indulgences'  - might make an odd sort of sense.
          Karoline Leach
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:55 PM
          Subject: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

          Dear fellow list members,
          thank you for making this list so interesting.
          Special thanks to Karoline Leach for her brain-spanking CLD biography, which
          made Dodgson's personality make sense to me for the first time!
          I am currently working on intertextual uses of Carroll's life and work, and
          something that keeps popping up is the 'anorexic theme'; the murdering of
          time (as Bloom puts it), CLD's reputed control mania and disgust with large
          appetites, Alice's trouble with food in the stories (either she can't have
          any or it drastically changes her size), etc.
          Apart from what is obviously in the Alice stories, how much of this do you
          think is reality-based, and how much is spin/myth/speculation?

          Helene B.


          visit our homepage  at:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

          to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 

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          To visit your group on the web, go to:
           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
           lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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           http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        • Keith Wright
          Karoline, there is surely no myth about his fastidious nature - he was that way even as a schoolboy! He wore gloves when other boys did not, he worried about
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Karoline,
             
            there is surely no myth about his fastidious nature - he was that way even as a schoolboy!  He wore gloves when other boys did not, he worried about not having a toothbrush at Richmond, how many other boys of his age would have worried about a toothbrush?  He planned journeys to the nth degree including the tips to the porters.  It's not only his own writings that mention this factor in his life, Isa Bowman mentions his food fads in her book and how she would eat alone at meal times as he had a glass of sherry.
             
            He bought an exerciser when he was still doing 18 mile walks from Oxford to Abingdon and back!  However, that's not to say he was in any way more eccentric than anyone else, everyone has their fads and strange ways and he had a large circle of friends and acquaintances who welcomed him into their homes.
             
            The myth is to exagerate his peculiarities to being something they were not, he was not in most ways unacceptable to society as a whole.  He said he was behaving as a hermit at one stage but that does not mean he really meant that any more than we would nowadays if we had a period of separation from our friends, it's not meant to be taken literally.
             
            Keith W 
             
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:47 AM
            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

            This is such an interesting question.  From my perspective  there is definitely a mythic element to CLD's reputed 'strangeness' over food; it tends to  be incorporated in larger images of his across-the -board  self-denial and general saintliness which I think are rather sweeping and oversimplified.
             
            As I see it CLD was not in general terms a particularly self-denying character.  He indulged in the things he enjoyed, like wine and beer and female company and the theatre and cosy state of the art  gas fires for his home,  and  when he really wanted to do something he tended to be very ingenious about finding ways of justifying or legitimising it to himself so he he could go ahead and do it.
             
            At the same time he does seem to have perceived himself as in some way dangerous or likely to get out of control, and perhaps this does relate to his attitude to food  in later life. As  a younger man he seems to have enjoyed food - at least more than he seems to have later on. But  after hisbrush with 'sin' he seems to start this rather odd process of control and denial of his appetite, which we can find numerous examples of  in his letters etc.
             
            There is his exercise obsession, which does seem to have been a little excessive; his obvious hyper-leanness (in middle age he weighed himself at 143lbs, which is pretty slight for a man of around 6 foot), and - yes- his rather hyped up emphasis on his own abstinence and repeated expressions of distaste for appetites that are out of control.
             
             This could be seen as quite similar in some ways to a kind of anorexia, or a kind of monastic bid to wither the flesh. If we remember his obvious disgust at his own 'weak flesh' during his difficult time in the 1860s, then a kind of 'referred'  bid to subdue it  in this monkish way - even while he continued other 'indulgences'  - might make an odd sort of sense.
            Karoline Leach
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:55 PM
            Subject: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

            Dear fellow list members,
            thank you for making this list so interesting.
            Special thanks to Karoline Leach for her brain-spanking CLD biography, which
            made Dodgson's personality make sense to me for the first time!
            I am currently working on intertextual uses of Carroll's life and work, and
            something that keeps popping up is the 'anorexic theme'; the murdering of
            time (as Bloom puts it), CLD's reputed control mania and disgust with large
            appetites, Alice's trouble with food in the stories (either she can't have
            any or it drastically changes her size), etc.
            Apart from what is obviously in the Alice stories, how much of this do you
            think is reality-based, and how much is spin/myth/speculation?

            Helene B.


            visit our homepage  at:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

            to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 

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            To visit your group on the web, go to:
             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

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          • Karoline Leach
            Ah the gloves! Personally I m betting he didn t wear gloves more than most Victorians. They all did back then, and I suspect it might be another example of
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
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              Ah the gloves! Personally I'm betting he didn't wear gloves more than most Victorians.  They all did back then, and I suspect it might be another example of  Mr Dodgson being described as eccentric for doing nothing more than be a Victorian.
               
              What Keith says about the sherry-drinking and no food at lunch time is quite true though and I suppose quite relevant to the ideas about 'anorexia'.  His niece Violet remembered him pacing up and down in the dining room drinking sherry and nibbling a biscuit while the family ate lunch.
               
               I think it would have quite alarmed me  having someone in the family behaving like that, and would certainly have killed off any idea of a nice relaxing meal.
              Couldn't he at least sit down? Was he afraid if he sat down he'd give in and actually eat?
               
              It reminds me of the sort of thing an alcoholic  (and anorexic)  aunt of mine used to do. She was a wildly disconcerting presence to have around at mealtimes.
               
              If anyone wants to know more about the sherry-for-lunch  and no food subject (though there isn't much more to know),  it's dealt with briefly in the extended version of my chapter 1 that's available on the new Carroll website
              because Collingwood also mentions it in passing.
               
              Jenny, I do remember the scone story. Have you looked in Hudson, who carries some anecdotes like that?
               
              Karoline
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 3:14 PM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

              Karoline,
               
              there is surely no myth about his fastidious nature - he was that way even as a schoolboy!  He wore gloves when other boys did not, he worried about not having a toothbrush at Richmond, how many other boys of his age would have worried about a toothbrush?  He planned journeys to the nth degree including the tips to the porters.  It's not only his own writings that mention this factor in his life, Isa Bowman mentions his food fads in her book and how she would eat alone at meal times as he had a glass of sherry.
               
              He bought an exerciser when he was still doing 18 mile walks from Oxford to Abingdon and back!  However, that's not to say he was in any way more eccentric than anyone else, everyone has their fads and strange ways and he had a large circle of friends and acquaintances who welcomed him into their homes.
               
              The myth is to exagerate his peculiarities to being something they were not, he was not in most ways unacceptable to society as a whole.  He said he was behaving as a hermit at one stage but that does not mean he really meant that any more than we would nowadays if we had a period of separation from our friends, it's not meant to be taken literally.
               
              Keith W 
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:47 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

              This is such an interesting question.  From my perspective  there is definitely a mythic element to CLD's reputed 'strangeness' over food; it tends to  be incorporated in larger images of his across-the -board  self-denial and general saintliness which I think are rather sweeping and oversimplified.
               
              As I see it CLD was not in general terms a particularly self-denying character.  He indulged in the things he enjoyed, like wine and beer and female company and the theatre and cosy state of the art  gas fires for his home,  and  when he really wanted to do something he tended to be very ingenious about finding ways of justifying or legitimising it to himself so he he could go ahead and do it.
               
              At the same time he does seem to have perceived himself as in some way dangerous or likely to get out of control, and perhaps this does relate to his attitude to food  in later life. As  a younger man he seems to have enjoyed food - at least more than he seems to have later on. But  after hisbrush with 'sin' he seems to start this rather odd process of control and denial of his appetite, which we can find numerous examples of  in his letters etc.
               
              There is his exercise obsession, which does seem to have been a little excessive; his obvious hyper-leanness (in middle age he weighed himself at 143lbs, which is pretty slight for a man of around 6 foot), and - yes- his rather hyped up emphasis on his own abstinence and repeated expressions of distaste for appetites that are out of control.
               
               This could be seen as quite similar in some ways to a kind of anorexia, or a kind of monastic bid to wither the flesh. If we remember his obvious disgust at his own 'weak flesh' during his difficult time in the 1860s, then a kind of 'referred'  bid to subdue it  in this monkish way - even while he continued other 'indulgences'  - might make an odd sort of sense.
              Karoline Leach
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:55 PM
              Subject: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

              Dear fellow list members,
              thank you for making this list so interesting.
              Special thanks to Karoline Leach for her brain-spanking CLD biography, which
              made Dodgson's personality make sense to me for the first time!
              I am currently working on intertextual uses of Carroll's life and work, and
              something that keeps popping up is the 'anorexic theme'; the murdering of
              time (as Bloom puts it), CLD's reputed control mania and disgust with large
              appetites, Alice's trouble with food in the stories (either she can't have
              any or it drastically changes her size), etc.
              Apart from what is obviously in the Alice stories, how much of this do you
              think is reality-based, and how much is spin/myth/speculation?

              Helene B.


              visit our homepage  at:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

              to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 

              Yahoo! Groups Links

              To visit your group on the web, go to:
               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
               lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

              to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com




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            • keith
              Karoline, perhaps in later life what you say may be true of the Victorian middle classes but 13 year old schoolboys didn t wear gloves or worry about them.
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
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                Karoline,
                 
                perhaps in later life what you say may be true of the Victorian middle classes but 13 year old schoolboys didn't wear gloves or worry about them.  Don't recall any mention of gloves in Tom Brown's Schooldays, yet these lads were his contemporaries. The Tywford lads CLD took photos of - not one of them wearing gloves!
                 
                I never said he was eccentric just fastidious and that seems proven by many things throughout his whole life not just the gloves!  His attitude to detail with his books, his packing when journeying.  Many things contribute to this picture of being fastidious which surely cannot be denied.
                 
                Keith W
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:03 PM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

                Ah the gloves! Personally I'm betting he didn't wear gloves more than most Victorians.  They all did back then, and I suspect it might be another example of  Mr Dodgson being described as eccentric for doing nothing more than be a Victorian.
                 
                What Keith says about the sherry-drinking and no food at lunch time is quite true though and I suppose quite relevant to the ideas about 'anorexia'.  His niece Violet remembered him pacing up and down in the dining room drinking sherry and nibbling a biscuit while the family ate lunch.
                 
                 I think it would have quite alarmed me  having someone in the family behaving like that, and would certainly have killed off any idea of a nice relaxing meal.
                Couldn't he at least sit down? Was he afraid if he sat down he'd give in and actually eat?
                 
                It reminds me of the sort of thing an alcoholic  (and anorexic)  aunt of mine used to do. She was a wildly disconcerting presence to have around at mealtimes.
                 
                If anyone wants to know more about the sherry-for-lunch  and no food subject (though there isn't much more to know),  it's dealt with briefly in the extended version of my chapter 1 that's available on the new Carroll website
                because Collingwood also mentions it in passing.
                 
                Jenny, I do remember the scone story. Have you looked in Hudson, who carries some anecdotes like that?
                 
                Karoline
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 3:14 PM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

                Karoline,
                 
                there is surely no myth about his fastidious nature - he was that way even as a schoolboy!  He wore gloves when other boys did not, he worried about not having a toothbrush at Richmond, how many other boys of his age would have worried about a toothbrush?  He planned journeys to the nth degree including the tips to the porters.  It's not only his own writings that mention this factor in his life, Isa Bowman mentions his food fads in her book and how she would eat alone at meal times as he had a glass of sherry.
                 
                He bought an exerciser when he was still doing 18 mile walks from Oxford to Abingdon and back!  However, that's not to say he was in any way more eccentric than anyone else, everyone has their fads and strange ways and he had a large circle of friends and acquaintances who welcomed him into their homes.
                 
                The myth is to exagerate his peculiarities to being something they were not, he was not in most ways unacceptable to society as a whole.  He said he was behaving as a hermit at one stage but that does not mean he really meant that any more than we would nowadays if we had a period of separation from our friends, it's not meant to be taken literally.
                 
                Keith W 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:47 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

                This is such an interesting question.  From my perspective  there is definitely a mythic element to CLD's reputed 'strangeness' over food; it tends to  be incorporated in larger images of his across-the -board  self-denial and general saintliness which I think are rather sweeping and oversimplified.
                 
                As I see it CLD was not in general terms a particularly self-denying character.  He indulged in the things he enjoyed, like wine and beer and female company and the theatre and cosy state of the art  gas fires for his home,  and  when he really wanted to do something he tended to be very ingenious about finding ways of justifying or legitimising it to himself so he he could go ahead and do it.
                 
                At the same time he does seem to have perceived himself as in some way dangerous or likely to get out of control, and perhaps this does relate to his attitude to food  in later life. As  a younger man he seems to have enjoyed food - at least more than he seems to have later on. But  after hisbrush with 'sin' he seems to start this rather odd process of control and denial of his appetite, which we can find numerous examples of  in his letters etc.
                 
                There is his exercise obsession, which does seem to have been a little excessive; his obvious hyper-leanness (in middle age he weighed himself at 143lbs, which is pretty slight for a man of around 6 foot), and - yes- his rather hyped up emphasis on his own abstinence and repeated expressions of distaste for appetites that are out of control.
                 
                 This could be seen as quite similar in some ways to a kind of anorexia, or a kind of monastic bid to wither the flesh. If we remember his obvious disgust at his own 'weak flesh' during his difficult time in the 1860s, then a kind of 'referred'  bid to subdue it  in this monkish way - even while he continued other 'indulgences'  - might make an odd sort of sense.
                Karoline Leach
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:55 PM
                Subject: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme

                Dear fellow list members,
                thank you for making this list so interesting.
                Special thanks to Karoline Leach for her brain-spanking CLD biography, which
                made Dodgson's personality make sense to me for the first time!
                I am currently working on intertextual uses of Carroll's life and work, and
                something that keeps popping up is the 'anorexic theme'; the murdering of
                time (as Bloom puts it), CLD's reputed control mania and disgust with large
                appetites, Alice's trouble with food in the stories (either she can't have
                any or it drastically changes her size), etc.
                Apart from what is obviously in the Alice stories, how much of this do you
                think is reality-based, and how much is spin/myth/speculation?

                Helene B.


                visit our homepage  at:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

                to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                 lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                visit our homepage  at:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

                to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com




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                visit our homepage  at:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

                to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com




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              • dreampretty
                For some reason this doesn t seem like classic anorexic behavior. It seems more like his mind was so extremely active that he was unable to take the time to
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
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                  For some reason this doesn't seem like classic anorexic behavior. It
                  seems more like his mind was so extremely active that he was unable to
                  take the time to relax and digest his food. He preferred stimulants,
                  like sherry. I find this interesting because of personal experience.
                  For many years I worked along side my father, an attorney and a
                  workaholic. I would beg him to take a moment to eat, and to feed me.
                  But all he ever wanted was coffee and beer. Even when he did stop and
                  try to eat, he was so involved in talking, thinking, working, that he
                  could barely pick at his food. Sometimes I wonder if he passed this
                  awful habit onto me. Or maybe I am also just too "in my head,"
                  because I am sometimes overwhelmed with a revulsion towards food. In
                  any case, you all don't want to hear about me, you want to hear about
                  CLD. But I often think in terms of personal experience...




                  I just get the feeling that CLD was a very mental person, and that his
                  disgust towards food was truly genuine. Even if he wanted to eat, he
                  probably couldn't.




                  ~dream








                  --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Karoline Leach" <Karoline@h...>
                  wrote:


                  > Ah the gloves! Personally I'm betting he didn't wear gloves more
                  than most Victorians. They all did back then, and I suspect it might
                  be another example of Mr Dodgson being described as eccentric for
                  doing nothing more than be a Victorian.


                  >


                  > What Keith says about the sherry-drinking and no food at lunch time
                  is quite true though and I suppose quite relevant to the ideas about
                  'anorexia'. His niece Violet remembered him pacing up and down in the
                  dining room drinking sherry and nibbling a biscuit while the family
                  ate lunch.


                  >


                  > I think it would have quite alarmed me having someone in the
                  family behaving like that, and would certainly have killed off any
                  idea of a nice relaxing meal.


                  > Couldn't he at least sit down? Was he afraid if he sat down he'd
                  give in and actually eat?


                  >


                  > It reminds me of the sort of thing an alcoholic (and anorexic)
                  aunt of mine used to do. She was a wildly disconcerting presence to
                  have around at mealtimes.


                  >


                  > If anyone wants to know more about the sherry-for-lunch and no food
                  subject (though there isn't much more to know), it's dealt with
                  briefly in the extended version of my chapter 1 that's available on
                  the new Carroll website


                  > (www.lookingforlewiscarroll.com/earlybiographies.html )


                  > because Collingwood also mentions it in passing.


                  >


                  > Jenny, I do remember the scone story. Have you looked in Hudson, who
                  carries some anecdotes like that?


                  >


                  > Karoline


                  >


                  > ----- Original Message -----


                  > From: Keith Wright


                  > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com


                  > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 3:14 PM


                  > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme


                  >


                  >


                  > Karoline,


                  >


                  > there is surely no myth about his fastidious nature - he was that
                  way even as a schoolboy! He wore gloves when other boys did not, he
                  worried about not having a toothbrush at Richmond, how many other boys
                  of his age would have worried about a toothbrush? He planned journeys
                  to the nth degree including the tips to the porters. It's not only
                  his own writings that mention this factor in his life, Isa Bowman
                  mentions his food fads in her book and how she would eat alone at meal
                  times as he had a glass of sherry.


                  >


                  > He bought an exerciser when he was still doing 18 mile walks from
                  Oxford to Abingdon and back! However, that's not to say he was in any
                  way more eccentric than anyone else, everyone has their fads and
                  strange ways and he had a large circle of friends and acquaintances
                  who welcomed him into their homes.


                  >


                  > The myth is to exagerate his peculiarities to being something they
                  were not, he was not in most ways unacceptable to society as a whole.
                  He said he was behaving as a hermit at one stage but that does not
                  mean he really meant that any more than we would nowadays if we had a
                  period of separation from our friends, it's not meant to be taken
                  literally.


                  >


                  > Keith W


                  >


                  >


                  >


                  >


                  > ----- Original Message -----


                  > From: Karoline Leach


                  > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com


                  > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:47 AM


                  > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme


                  >


                  >


                  > This is such an interesting question. From my perspective
                  there is definitely a mythic element to CLD's reputed 'strangeness'
                  over food; it tends to be incorporated in larger images of his
                  across-the -board self-denial and general saintliness which I think
                  are rather sweeping and oversimplified.


                  >


                  > As I see it CLD was not in general terms a particularly
                  self-denying character. He indulged in the things he enjoyed, like
                  wine and beer and female company and the theatre and cosy state of the
                  art gas fires for his home, and when he really wanted to do
                  something he tended to be very ingenious about finding ways of
                  justifying or legitimising it to himself so he he could go ahead and
                  do it.


                  >


                  > At the same time he does seem to have perceived himself as in
                  some way dangerous or likely to get out of control, and perhaps this
                  does relate to his attitude to food in later life. As a younger man
                  he seems to have enjoyed food - at least more than he seems to have
                  later on. But after hisbrush with 'sin' he seems to start this rather
                  odd process of control and denial of his appetite, which we can find
                  numerous examples of in his letters etc.


                  >


                  > There is his exercise obsession, which does seem to have been a
                  little excessive; his obvious hyper-leanness (in middle age he weighed
                  himself at 143lbs, which is pretty slight for a man of around 6 foot),
                  and - yes- his rather hyped up emphasis on his own abstinence and
                  repeated expressions of distaste for appetites that are out of
                  control.


                  >


                  > This could be seen as quite similar in some ways to a kind of
                  anorexia, or a kind of monastic bid to wither the flesh. If we
                  remember his obvious disgust at his own 'weak flesh' during his
                  difficult time in the 1860s, then a kind of 'referred' bid to subdue
                  it in this monkish way - even while he continued other 'indulgences'
                  - might make an odd sort of sense.


                  > Karoline Leach


                  >


                  >


                  >


                  > ----- Original Message -----


                  > From: Helene Bengtson


                  > To: Lewis Carroll List


                  > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 2:55 PM


                  > Subject: [lewiscarroll] The 'anorexic' theme


                  >


                  >


                  > Dear fellow list members,


                  > thank you for making this list so interesting.


                  > Special thanks to Karoline Leach for her brain-spanking CLD
                  biography, which


                  > made Dodgson's personality make sense to me for the first
                  time!


                  > I am currently working on intertextual uses of Carroll's life
                  and work, and


                  > something that keeps popping up is the 'anorexic theme'; the
                  murdering of


                  > time (as Bloom puts it), CLD's reputed control mania and
                  disgust with large


                  > appetites, Alice's trouble with food in the stories (either
                  she can't have


                  > any or it drastically changes her size), etc.


                  > Apart from what is obviously in the Alice stories, how much of
                  this do you


                  > think is reality-based, and how much is spin/myth/speculation?


                  >


                  > Helene B.


                  >


                  >


                  > visit our homepage at:


                  >


                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/


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                • Jim Buch
                  ... From a MEDLINE search on Male Anorexia (just the abstract, not the entire paper) ..... it is evident that there are very few studies of the subject in the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 5, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "dreampretty" <dreampretty@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > For some reason this doesn't seem like classic anorexic behavior. It
                    > seems more like his mind was so extremely active that he was unable to
                    > take the time to relax and digest his food. He preferred stimulants,
                    > like sherry.

                    From a MEDLINE search on Male Anorexia (just the abstract, not the
                    entire paper) ..... it is evident that there are very few studies of
                    the subject in the male... and the many of the prior studies are cited
                    for having such small sample sizes that conclusions are unreliable.

                    I was actually anticipating that somewhere, the effect of family of
                    origin would be in the studies, but nothing so far for the male
                    subject.....

                    I suspect that the emphasis on health for male anorexics might fit
                    CLD, but the coincidence does not yet confirm an anorexic diagnosis.


                    ------------------------

                    Psychother Psychosom Med Psychol 2003 Jan;53(1):15-22 (ISSN: 0937-2032)
                    Grabhorn R; Kopp W; Gitzinger I; von Wietersheim J; Kaufhold J
                    Klinik fur Psychosomatische Medizin und Psychotherapie der
                    Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universitat Frankfurt am Main.
                    Publications about men with eating disorders are still rare.
                    Therefore, in view of the current status of the findings, it seems
                    worthwhile to examine the differences that are empirically verified as
                    well as the relevant common features between the sexes. Based on a
                    representative sample, therefore, male and female patients with eating
                    disorders in inpatient treatment are compared in terms of demographic
                    and clinical variables (symptoms and personality), both at the
                    beginning of treatment and two-and-a-half years after the inpatient
                    treatment, and the findings are discussed with regard to their "gender
                    specificity". The study covered 1,171 patients (male and female) with
                    the diagnosis criteria for anorexia, bulimia and double diagnosis
                    according to DSM-III-R; 33 of them were men. Anorexia cases (342 women
                    and 13 men) and bulimia cases (629 women and 18 men) were compared at
                    the beginning of treatment with the following instruments: Symptom
                    Checklist 90-R; Eating Disorder Inventory; questionnaire for the
                    symptom diagnosis of eating disorders; Freiburger
                    Personlichkeitsinventar and Narzissmus-Inventar. As a measure of
                    success in the 2.5 year catamnesis (764 women and 20 men),
                    operationalized criteria were defined using the LIFE. The 2.8 % share
                    of men with eating disorders in inpatient treatment again confirms the
                    special nature of this clinical disorder for men. An interesting
                    result is the later onset of illness in male anorexia cases.
                    Coinciding with comparable studies, there are only minor differences
                    in eating behavior, but the differences in body experience are much
                    more pronounced.

                    Anorectic men have a greater gain from the illness, are more concerned
                    about their health and are less performance-minded than female
                    anorectics. The differences that were found clearly indicate that
                    these occur especially in the area of dealing with the body and the
                    significance of the body. One of the reasons why the results in the
                    area of personality and sexual identity are interesting is that they
                    point to differences which definitely appear to be significant, not
                    just between the sexes, but also between male anorexia and bulimia.
                  • dreampretty
                    I rarely drink coffee because I am extremely sensitive to the caffeine, even in decaffeinated cofee. The other day I drank some and was totally wired. I also
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 6, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I rarely drink coffee because I am extremely sensitive to the
                      caffeine, even in decaffeinated cofee. The other day I drank some and
                      was totally wired. I also completely lost my appetite. I think that
                      many stimulants have the property of suppressing your appetite. I
                      would find any research on Lewis Carroll's use of stimulants and any
                      other drug for that matter (you know what I'm talking about)
                      very...stimulating.
                      ~dream



                      --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Buch" <jbuch@r...> wrote:
                      > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "dreampretty" <dreampretty@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > For some reason this doesn't seem like classic anorexic behavior. It
                      > > seems more like his mind was so extremely active that he was
                      unable to
                      > > take the time to relax and digest his food. He preferred stimulants,
                      > > like sherry.
                      >
                      > From a MEDLINE search on Male Anorexia (just the abstract, not the
                      > entire paper) ..... it is evident that there are very few studies of
                      > the subject in the male... and the many of the prior studies are cited
                      > for having such small sample sizes that conclusions are unreliable.
                      >
                      > I was actually anticipating that somewhere, the effect of family of
                      > origin would be in the studies, but nothing so far for the male
                      > subject.....
                      >
                      > I suspect that the emphasis on health for male anorexics might fit
                      > CLD, but the coincidence does not yet confirm an anorexic diagnosis.
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------
                      >
                      > Psychother Psychosom Med Psychol 2003 Jan;53(1):15-22 (ISSN:
                      0937-2032)
                      > Grabhorn R; Kopp W; Gitzinger I; von Wietersheim J; Kaufhold J
                      > Klinik fur Psychosomatische Medizin und Psychotherapie der
                      > Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universitat Frankfurt am Main.
                      > Publications about men with eating disorders are still rare.
                      > Therefore, in view of the current status of the findings, it seems
                      > worthwhile to examine the differences that are empirically verified as
                      > well as the relevant common features between the sexes. Based on a
                      > representative sample, therefore, male and female patients with eating
                      > disorders in inpatient treatment are compared in terms of demographic
                      > and clinical variables (symptoms and personality), both at the
                      > beginning of treatment and two-and-a-half years after the inpatient
                      > treatment, and the findings are discussed with regard to their "gender
                      > specificity". The study covered 1,171 patients (male and female) with
                      > the diagnosis criteria for anorexia, bulimia and double diagnosis
                      > according to DSM-III-R; 33 of them were men. Anorexia cases (342 women
                      > and 13 men) and bulimia cases (629 women and 18 men) were compared at
                      > the beginning of treatment with the following instruments: Symptom
                      > Checklist 90-R; Eating Disorder Inventory; questionnaire for the
                      > symptom diagnosis of eating disorders; Freiburger
                      > Personlichkeitsinventar and Narzissmus-Inventar. As a measure of
                      > success in the 2.5 year catamnesis (764 women and 20 men),
                      > operationalized criteria were defined using the LIFE. The 2.8 % share
                      > of men with eating disorders in inpatient treatment again confirms the
                      > special nature of this clinical disorder for men. An interesting
                      > result is the later onset of illness in male anorexia cases.
                      > Coinciding with comparable studies, there are only minor differences
                      > in eating behavior, but the differences in body experience are much
                      > more pronounced.
                      >
                      > Anorectic men have a greater gain from the illness, are more concerned
                      > about their health and are less performance-minded than female
                      > anorectics. The differences that were found clearly indicate that
                      > these occur especially in the area of dealing with the body and the
                      > significance of the body. One of the reasons why the results in the
                      > area of personality and sexual identity are interesting is that they
                      > point to differences which definitely appear to be significant, not
                      > just between the sexes, but also between male anorexia and bulimia.
                    • Jim Buch
                      ... Well, you can continue to make the usual speculations without facts that people have always made aobut the matter (you know what I m talking about). And,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 7, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "dreampretty" <dreampretty@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > I rarely drink coffee because I am extremely sensitive to the
                        > caffeine, even in decaffeinated cofee. The other day I drank some and
                        > was totally wired. I also completely lost my appetite. I think that
                        > many stimulants have the property of suppressing your appetite. I
                        > would find any research on Lewis Carroll's use of stimulants and any
                        > other drug for that matter (you know what I'm talking about)
                        > very...stimulating.
                        > ~dream
                        >
                        >


                        Well, you can continue to make the usual speculations without facts
                        that people have always made aobut the matter (you know what I'm
                        talking about).

                        And, you can continue to make no real progress on the matter (you know
                        what I'm talking about), but enjoy the public speculation nevertheless.

                        Jim
                      • dreampretty
                        Ha ha, so you guys here believe that speculation over whether Lewis Carroll lusted after young girls is more scholarly than whether he employed psychedelics or
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 8, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ha ha, so you guys here believe that speculation over whether Lewis
                          Carroll lusted after young girls is more scholarly than whether he
                          employed psychedelics or stimulants in his search for the world beyond
                          the looking glass?
                          ~dreampretty



                          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Buch" <jbuch@r...> wrote:
                          > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "dreampretty" <dreampretty@y...
                          >
                          > wrote:
                          > > I rarely drink coffee because I am extremely sensitive to the
                          > > caffeine, even in decaffeinated cofee. The other day I drank some
                          and
                          > > was totally wired. I also completely lost my appetite. I think
                          that
                          > > many stimulants have the property of suppressing your appetite. I
                          > > would find any research on Lewis Carroll's use of stimulants and
                          any
                          > > other drug for that matter (you know what I'm talking about)
                          > > very...stimulating.
                          > > ~dream
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > Well, you can continue to make the usual speculations without facts
                          > that people have always made aobut the matter (you know what I'm
                          > talking about).
                          >
                          > And, you can continue to make no real progress on the matter (you
                          know
                          > what I'm talking about), but enjoy the public speculation
                          nevertheless.
                          >
                          > Jim
                        • Karoline Leach
                          Re. the drug question. Rather like the issue of child-friends and nude images of little girls, CLD s relationship with narcotics needs to be viewed in the
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 9, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                             
                            Re. the drug question. Rather like the issue of 'child-friends' and nude images of little girls,  CLD's relationship with narcotics  needs to be viewed in the context of his age and not our own.
                             
                            This was a time before the Defence of the Realm act of 1918 isolated heroin, opium, cocaine etc as dangerous drugs and criminalised their use or possession.  It was a time when these drugs could be bought quite legally in a local store.
                             
                            It was a time when cocaine was an acknowledged recreational drug for 'ladies', and the most popular over-counter painkiller was laudanum, which was basically opium mixed with alcohol. Opium of course is the basis for morphine and  heroin.
                             
                            This stuff was what you took for headaches or toothaches or period pains or the like, so getting a little high must have been as common then as getting a little drunk.
                             
                            In a climate like this - so different from anything we experience -  it's probably pretty redundant to ask if CLD 'took drugs'. That's a modern question. 
                             
                            Yes, he 'took drugs' in our modern parlance, because like all Victorians he used opium as a painkiller. Like all Victorians he probably knew you could feel pretty nice if you took the stuff, and even nicer if you took a little more.
                             
                            It just wasn't criminal then, and you didn't need to hide in toilets in order to get the high. Aunties and Deacons and Prime Ministers and schoolteachers were doing it quite legally every time they had a pain that needed killing - and if they sometimes took the stuff when the only pain was boredom or depression, then who even knew or cared?
                             
                            In that sense the 'prim' Victorians were far less prudish and nervous than we are.
                             .
                            Karoline
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 4:42 AM
                            Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: The 'anorexic' theme

                            Ha ha, so you guys here believe that speculation over whether Lewis
                            Carroll lusted after young girls is more scholarly than whether he
                            employed psychedelics or stimulants in his search for the world beyond
                            the looking glass?
                            ~dreampretty



                            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Buch" <jbuch@r...> wrote:
                            > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "dreampretty" <dreampretty@y...
                            >
                            > wrote:
                            > > I rarely drink coffee because I am extremely sensitive to the
                            > > caffeine, even in decaffeinated cofee.  The other day I drank some
                            and
                            > > was totally wired.  I also completely lost my appetite.  I think
                            that
                            > > many stimulants have the property of suppressing your appetite.  I
                            > > would find any research on Lewis Carroll's use of stimulants and
                            any
                            > > other drug for that matter (you know what I'm talking about)
                            > > very...stimulating. 
                            > > ~dream
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > Well, you can continue to make the usual speculations without facts
                            > that people have always made aobut the matter (you know what I'm
                            > talking about).
                            >
                            > And, you can continue to make no real progress on the matter (you
                            know
                            > what I'm talking about), but enjoy the public speculation
                            nevertheless.
                            >
                            > Jim



                            visit our homepage  at:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

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                          • Keith Wright
                            Karoline, whilst I agree with you on the prevalence of drugs in Victorian society and the ease of obtaining them for medicinal and other purposes, nevertheless
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 9, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Karoline,
                               
                              whilst I agree with you on the prevalence of drugs in Victorian society and the ease of obtaining them for medicinal and other purposes, nevertheless they still wreaked havoc among folk and the families of those who became addicted to them, just as they do nowadays, and drug users who were addicts were condemned for their addiction just the same as they are nowadays.  What is different is that people did not think that they were their brother's keeper is those days and regarded it as the individual's right to control his/her own risks.
                               
                              A prime example is Branwell Bronte who killed himself by the use of drugs which weakened his resistance to infections. 
                               
                              What I find different with CLD is the way we react to everything he did in a way that we don't with other people yet the evidence for any wrongdoing on his part is usually circumstantial and often just wrong!
                               
                              Karoline
                               
                                 
                               
                                
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:43 AM
                              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: The 'anorexic' theme

                               
                              Re. the drug question. Rather like the issue of 'child-friends' and nude images of little girls,  CLD's relationship with narcotics  needs to be viewed in the context of his age and not our own.
                               
                              This was a time before the Defence of the Realm act of 1918 isolated heroin, opium, cocaine etc as dangerous drugs and criminalised their use or possession.  It was a time when these drugs could be bought quite legally in a local store.
                               
                              It was a time when cocaine was an acknowledged recreational drug for 'ladies', and the most popular over-counter painkiller was laudanum, which was basically opium mixed with alcohol. Opium of course is the basis for morphine and  heroin.
                               
                              This stuff was what you took for headaches or toothaches or period pains or the like, so getting a little high must have been as common then as getting a little drunk.
                               
                              In a climate like this - so different from anything we experience -  it's probably pretty redundant to ask if CLD 'took drugs'. That's a modern question. 
                               
                              Yes, he 'took drugs' in our modern parlance, because like all Victorians he used opium as a painkiller. Like all Victorians he probably knew you could feel pretty nice if you took the stuff, and even nicer if you took a little more.
                               
                              It just wasn't criminal then, and you didn't need to hide in toilets in order to get the high. Aunties and Deacons and Prime Ministers and schoolteachers were doing it quite legally every time they had a pain that needed killing - and if they sometimes took the stuff when the only pain was boredom or depression, then who even knew or cared?
                               
                              In that sense the 'prim' Victorians were far less prudish and nervous than we are.
                               .
                              Karoline
                               
                               
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 4:42 AM
                              Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: The 'anorexic' theme

                              Ha ha, so you guys here believe that speculation over whether Lewis
                              Carroll lusted after young girls is more scholarly than whether he
                              employed psychedelics or stimulants in his search for the world beyond
                              the looking glass?
                              ~dreampretty



                              --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Buch" <jbuch@r...> wrote:
                              > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "dreampretty" <dreampretty@y...
                              >
                              > wrote:
                              > > I rarely drink coffee because I am extremely sensitive to the
                              > > caffeine, even in decaffeinated cofee.  The other day I drank some
                              and
                              > > was totally wired.  I also completely lost my appetite.  I think
                              that
                              > > many stimulants have the property of suppressing your appetite.  I
                              > > would find any research on Lewis Carroll's use of stimulants and
                              any
                              > > other drug for that matter (you know what I'm talking about)
                              > > very...stimulating. 
                              > > ~dream
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > Well, you can continue to make the usual speculations without facts
                              > that people have always made aobut the matter (you know what I'm
                              > talking about).
                              >
                              > And, you can continue to make no real progress on the matter (you
                              know
                              > what I'm talking about), but enjoy the public speculation
                              nevertheless.
                              >
                              > Jim



                              visit our homepage  at:

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/

                              to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
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                            • dreampretty
                              I never said he committed a wrong. I am merely interested in his imagery, and what particular drugs might induce such visions. We do not need to protect CLD
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 9, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I never said he committed a wrong. I am merely interested in his
                                imagery, and what particular drugs might induce such visions. We do
                                not need to protect CLD here. And if we learn that the writer of the
                                most beautiful children's tale ever partook of p-s-y-c-h-o-a-c-t-i-v-e
                                substances, what of it? Shall we ban it from the libraries?


                                Love,


                                Dream










                                --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Wright <keith@c...> wrote:


                                > Karoline,


                                >


                                > whilst I agree with you on the prevalence of drugs in Victorian
                                society and the ease of obtaining them for medicinal and other
                                purposes, nevertheless they still wreaked havoc among folk and the
                                families of those who became addicted to them, just as they do
                                nowadays, and drug users who were addicts were condemned for their
                                addiction just the same as they are nowadays. What is different is
                                that people did not think that they were their brother's keeper is
                                those days and regarded it as the individual's right to control
                                his/her own risks.


                                >


                                > A prime example is Branwell Bronte who killed himself by the use of
                                drugs which weakened his resistance to infections.


                                >


                                > What I find different with CLD is the way we react to everything he
                                did in a way that we don't with other people yet the evidence for any
                                wrongdoing on his part is usually circumstantial and often just wrong!


                                >


                                > Karoline


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                > ----- Original Message -----


                                > From: Karoline Leach


                                > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com


                                > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:43 AM


                                > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: The 'anorexic' theme


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                > Re. the drug question. Rather like the issue of 'child-friends'
                                and nude images of little girls, CLD's relationship with narcotics
                                needs to be viewed in the context of his age and not our own.


                                >


                                > This was a time before the Defence of the Realm act of 1918
                                isolated heroin, opium, cocaine etc as dangerous drugs and
                                criminalised their use or possession. It was a time when these drugs
                                could be bought quite legally in a local store.


                                >


                                > It was a time when cocaine was an acknowledged recreational drug
                                for 'ladies', and the most popular over-counter painkiller was
                                laudanum, which was basically opium mixed with alcohol. Opium of
                                course is the basis for morphine and heroin.


                                >


                                > This stuff was what you took for headaches or toothaches or period
                                pains or the like, so getting a little high must have been as common
                                then as getting a little drunk.


                                >


                                > In a climate like this - so different from anything we experience
                                - it's probably pretty redundant to ask if CLD 'took drugs'. That's a
                                modern question.


                                >


                                > Yes, he 'took drugs' in our modern parlance, because like all
                                Victorians he used opium as a painkiller. Like all Victorians he
                                probably knew you could feel pretty nice if you took the stuff, and
                                even nicer if you took a little more.


                                >


                                > It just wasn't criminal then, and you didn't need to hide in
                                toilets in order to get the high. Aunties and Deacons and Prime
                                Ministers and schoolteachers were doing it quite legally every time
                                they had a pain that needed killing - and if they sometimes took the
                                stuff when the only pain was boredom or depression, then who even knew
                                or cared?


                                >


                                > In that sense the 'prim' Victorians were far less prudish and
                                nervous than we are.


                                > .


                                > Karoline


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                > ----- Original Message -----


                                > From: dreampretty


                                > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com


                                > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 4:42 AM


                                > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: The 'anorexic' theme


                                >


                                >


                                > Ha ha, so you guys here believe that speculation over whether
                                Lewis


                                > Carroll lusted after young girls is more scholarly than whether
                                he


                                > employed psychedelics or stimulants in his search for the world
                                beyond


                                > the looking glass?


                                > ~dreampretty


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Buch" <jbuch@r...>
                                wrote:


                                > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "dreampretty"
                                <dreampretty@y...


                                > >


                                > > wrote:


                                > > > I rarely drink coffee because I am extremely sensitive to
                                the


                                > > > caffeine, even in decaffeinated cofee. The other day I
                                drank some


                                > and


                                > > > was totally wired. I also completely lost my appetite. I
                                think


                                > that


                                > > > many stimulants have the property of suppressing your
                                appetite. I


                                > > > would find any research on Lewis Carroll's use of stimulants
                                and


                                > any


                                > > > other drug for that matter (you know what I'm talking about)


                                > > > very...stimulating.


                                > > > ~dream


                                > > >


                                > > >


                                > >


                                > >


                                > > Well, you can continue to make the usual speculations without
                                facts


                                > > that people have always made aobut the matter (you know what
                                I'm


                                > > talking about).


                                > >


                                > > And, you can continue to make no real progress on the matter
                                (you


                                > know


                                > > what I'm talking about), but enjoy the public speculation


                                > nevertheless.


                                > >


                                > > Jim


                                >


                                >


                                >


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