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Re: what is Alice in Wonderland about

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  • ingrid_nabu
    Thanks Dayna, Well, I just know only a little about Lewis Carroll but your suggestion is helpful. It is interesting that the Alice book is about growth and
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 18, 2003
      Thanks Dayna,
      Well, I just know only a little about Lewis Carroll but your
      suggestion is helpful. It is interesting that the Alice book is about
      growth and learning. So, do you think it's all about children
      themselves and does not have any relationship with Carroll's idea
      about something (his criticism about life at that time or perhaps he
      wants to express something through his book)?
      Would you please inform me any sites that criticize Lewis Carroll
      books and I will search under lewis carroll.

      Thank you!
      INGRID
      --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Dayna McCausland"
      <sheerluck@s...> wrote:
      > The first
      > question that I have when I read Alice's Adventures in
      > Wonderland is "What does Lewis Carroll try to express from the
      > Alice book?" Does it merely a fantasy of children's world?
      > Unfortunately I don't know where to find the refferences about
      > Alice such as Morton N. Cohen's book (Lewis Carroll: A
      > Biography), Roger Lancelyn Green (The Diaries of Lewis Carroll)
      > and so many more. I hope through this discussion group I can
      > find a lot of useful things and new friends that support me in
      > learning about Lewis Carroll. Thank you and thank you ! Ingrid"
      >
      >
      > Hi Ingrid and welcome,
      > I just heard a paper on Sat that worked from the view that Alice in
      > Wonderland was all about identity... who are we (Alice)? are we
      creatures of
      > flesh like the caterpiller or spirit, like the butterfly he will
      become. It
      > is about growth and learning. I thought it was interesting.
      >
      > Good luck with your thesis and for resources you might want to try
      ebay. I
      > get lots of reference books there. Search under lewis carroll.
      > Dayna
    • Adele Cammarata
      Hi all, and welcome Ingrid. Your question is interesting and other people already answered it. I think that Alice is a story about finding the right place/size
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 19, 2003
        Hi all, and welcome Ingrid.
        Your question is interesting and other people already answered it. I think that Alice is a story about finding the right place/size in the world, about growing up without growing "mad", about using your brain unless it uses you, about exploring the rules of language and behaviour, about finding the "right middle" in your life. And lots of other things.
        We can also read it as a criticism about Victorian society, as a criticism about justice and irrational use of it (see the trial scene and the Mouse's tale), a criticism about the school system...
         
        Our Lewis Carroll once said that a word means much more you mean when you first used it: imagine a whole book! I personally think he started telling it to Alice Liddel just because it was a nice story with some nonsense in it, but then when he wrote it down he perhaps stressed some of the aspects in order to express some of his ideas. It's interesting if you compare the first version (Underground) and the final one (Wonderland) because you'll find that the first is written for Alice only while Wonderland speaks to a wider audience.
         
        Good luck for your thesis, check the www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll.html  website.
        Adele
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
        Date: venerdì 19 settembre 2003 07.21.00
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: what is Alice in Wonderland about
         

        Thanks Dayna,
        Well, I just know only a little about Lewis Carroll but your
        suggestion is helpful. It is interesting that the Alice book is about
        growth and learning. So, do you think it's all about children
        themselves and does not have any relationship with Carroll's idea
        about something (his criticism about life at that time or perhaps he
        wants to express something through his book)?
        Would you please inform me any sites that criticize Lewis Carroll
        books and I will search under lewis carroll.

        Thank you!
        INGRID
        ____________________________________________________
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      • ingrid_nabu
        Hi All, and thanks to Adele. Such a wonderful idea! Well, I just read the victorian web and some readings from lewis carroll homepage. I found out that Lewis
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 20, 2003
          Hi All, and thanks to Adele.
          Such a wonderful idea! Well, I just read the victorian web and some
          readings from lewis carroll homepage. I found out that Lewis Carroll
          wrote in his diary after visiting the Liddells '...Mrs Liddell was
          with us part of the time. It is nearly six months (June 25th) since I
          have seen anything of them, to speak of. I mark this day with a white
          stone.' (www.lewiscarroll.org/cam/to 1868.html)
          Could any body tell me what is the meaning of white stone? If this
          represent his "important day or moment", why did he choose white
          stone? Is it an ordinary stone or it has other meaning at that time?

          And also could anybody suggest me what kind of dictionary should I
          use during my analysis? The language, terms and vocabulary in Alice
          in Wonderland are (for me)different with what we are using now. So,
          in order to make it appropriate with my analysis, I want to find the
          explanation of each terms using a dictionary that has any
          relationship with victorian era or Lewis Carroll's time.
          I'm so sorry for being so 'do not know anything' but I think I will
          post a lot of questions about confusing things that I found. Thank
          you all, for responding my questions.

          Warm regards,
          Ingrid.




          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Adele Cammarata"
          <adelecammarata@l...> wrote:
          > Hi all, and welcome Ingrid.
          > Your question is interesting and other people already answered it.
          I think
          > that Alice is a story about finding the right place/size in the
          world, about
          > growing up without growing "mad", about using your brain unless it
          uses you,
          > about exploring the rules of language and behaviour, about finding
          the
          > right middle" in your life. And lots of other things.
          > We can also read it as a criticism about Victorian society, as a
          criticism
          > about justice and irrational use of it (see the trial scene and the
          Mouse's
          > tale), a criticism about the school system...
          >
          > Our Lewis Carroll once said that a word means much more you mean
          when you
          > first used it: imagine a whole book! I personally think he started
          telling
          > it to Alice Liddel just because it was a nice story with some
          nonsense in it
          > but then when he wrote it down he perhaps stressed some of the
          aspects in
          > order to express some of his ideas. It's interesting if you compare
          the
          > first version (Underground) and the final one (Wonderland) because
          you'll
          > find that the first is written for Alice only while Wonderland
          speaks to a
          > wider audience.
          >
          > Good luck for your thesis, check the
          www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll.html
          > website.
          > Adele
          >
          > -------Original Message-------
          >
          > From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: venerdì 19 settembre 2003 07.21.00
          > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: what is Alice in Wonderland about
          >
          >
          > Thanks Dayna,
          > Well, I just know only a little about Lewis Carroll but your
          > suggestion is helpful. It is interesting that the Alice book is
          about
          > growth and learning. So, do you think it's all about children
          > themselves and does not have any relationship with Carroll's idea
          > about something (his criticism about life at that time or perhaps
          he
          > wants to express something through his book)?
          > Would you please inform me any sites that criticize Lewis Carroll
          > books and I will search under lewis carroll.
          >
          > Thank you!
          > INGRID
        • Kate
          ... From: ingrid_nabu To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:11 PM Subject: [lewiscarroll] Such a wonderful idea! Hi All, and
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 20, 2003
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:11 PM
            Subject: [lewiscarroll] Such a wonderful idea!

            Hi All, and thanks to Adele.
            Such a wonderful idea! Well, I just read  the victorian web and some
            readings from lewis carroll homepage. I found out that Lewis Carroll
            wrote in his diary after  visiting the Liddells '...Mrs Liddell was
            with us part of the time. It is nearly six months (June 25th) since I
            have seen anything of them, to speak of. I mark this day with a white
            stone.' (www.lewiscarroll.org/cam/to 1868.html)
            Could any body tell me what is the meaning of white stone? If this
            represent his "important day or moment", why did he choose white
            stone? Is it an ordinary stone or it has other meaning at that time?

            And also could anybody suggest me what kind of dictionary should I
            use during my analysis? The language, terms and vocabulary in Alice
            in Wonderland are (for me)different with what we are using now. So,
            in order to make it appropriate with my analysis, I want to find the
            explanation of each terms using a dictionary that has any
            relationship with victorian era or Lewis Carroll's time.
            I'm so sorry for being so 'do not know anything' but I think I will
            post a lot of questions about confusing things that I found. Thank
            you  all, for responding my questions.

            Warm regards,
            Ingrid.




            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Adele Cammarata"
            <adelecammarata@l...> wrote:
            > Hi all, and welcome Ingrid.
            > Your question is interesting and other people already answered it.
            I think
            > that Alice is a story about finding the right place/size in the
            world, about
            > growing up without growing "mad", about using your brain unless it
            uses you,
            > about exploring the rules of language and behaviour, about finding
            the
            > right middle" in your life. And lots of other things.
            > We can also read it as a criticism about Victorian society, as a
            criticism
            > about justice and irrational use of it (see the trial scene and the
            Mouse's
            > tale), a criticism about the school system...
            >
            > Our Lewis Carroll once said that a word means much more you mean
            when you
            > first used it: imagine a whole book! I personally think he started
            telling
            > it to Alice Liddel just because it was a nice story with some
            nonsense in it
            >  but then when he wrote it down he perhaps stressed some of the
            aspects in
            > order to express some of his ideas. It's interesting if you compare
            the
            > first version (Underground) and the final one (Wonderland) because
            you'll
            > find that the first is written for Alice only while Wonderland
            speaks to a
            > wider audience.
            >
            > Good luck for your thesis, check the
            www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll.html
            > website.
            > Adele

            > -------Original Message-------

            > From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: venerdì 19 settembre 2003 07.21.00
            > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: what is Alice in Wonderland about

            >
            > Thanks Dayna,
            > Well, I just know only a little about Lewis Carroll but your
            > suggestion is helpful. It is interesting that the Alice book is
            about
            > growth and learning. So, do you think it's all about children
            > themselves and does not have any relationship with Carroll's idea
            > about something (his criticism about life at that time or perhaps
            he
            > wants to express something through his book)?
            > Would you please inform me any sites that criticize Lewis Carroll
            > books and I will search under lewis carroll.
            >
            > Thank you!
            > INGRID



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          • Kate
            Hullo Ingrid - if you go to the following site http://www.lcsnz.org, and then select Articles/White Stone, you will see a copy of the article I did for the
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 20, 2003
              Hullo Ingrid - if you go to the following site http://www.lcsnz.org, and then select Articles/White Stone, you will see a copy of the article I did for the Knight Letter about 18 months ago. It may give you a bit of a new perspective.  best, Kate Lyon 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:11 PM
              Subject: [lewiscarroll] Such a wonderful idea!

              Hi All, and thanks to Adele.
              Such a wonderful idea! Well, I just read  the victorian web and some
              readings from lewis carroll homepage. I found out that Lewis Carroll
              wrote in his diary after  visiting the Liddells '...Mrs Liddell was
              with us part of the time. It is nearly six months (June 25th) since I
              have seen anything of them, to speak of. I mark this day with a white
              stone.' (www.lewiscarroll.org/cam/to 1868.html)
              Could any body tell me what is the meaning of white stone? If this
              represent his "important day or moment", why did he choose white
              stone? Is it an ordinary stone or it has other meaning at that time?

              And also could anybody suggest me what kind of dictionary should I
              use during my analysis? The language, terms and vocabulary in Alice
              in Wonderland are (for me)different with what we are using now. So,
              in order to make it appropriate with my analysis, I want to find the
              explanation of each terms using a dictionary that has any
              relationship with victorian era or Lewis Carroll's time.
              I'm so sorry for being so 'do not know anything' but I think I will
              post a lot of questions about confusing things that I found. Thank
              you  all, for responding my questions.

              Warm regards,
              Ingrid.




              --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Adele Cammarata"
              <adelecammarata@l...> wrote:
              > Hi all, and welcome Ingrid.
              > Your question is interesting and other people already answered it.
              I think
              > that Alice is a story about finding the right place/size in the
              world, about
              > growing up without growing "mad", about using your brain unless it
              uses you,
              > about exploring the rules of language and behaviour, about finding
              the
              > right middle" in your life. And lots of other things.
              > We can also read it as a criticism about Victorian society, as a
              criticism
              > about justice and irrational use of it (see the trial scene and the
              Mouse's
              > tale), a criticism about the school system...
              >
              > Our Lewis Carroll once said that a word means much more you mean
              when you
              > first used it: imagine a whole book! I personally think he started
              telling
              > it to Alice Liddel just because it was a nice story with some
              nonsense in it
              >  but then when he wrote it down he perhaps stressed some of the
              aspects in
              > order to express some of his ideas. It's interesting if you compare
              the
              > first version (Underground) and the final one (Wonderland) because
              you'll
              > find that the first is written for Alice only while Wonderland
              speaks to a
              > wider audience.
              >
              > Good luck for your thesis, check the
              www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll.html
              > website.
              > Adele

              > -------Original Message-------

              > From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: venerdì 19 settembre 2003 07.21.00
              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: what is Alice in Wonderland about

              >
              > Thanks Dayna,
              > Well, I just know only a little about Lewis Carroll but your
              > suggestion is helpful. It is interesting that the Alice book is
              about
              > growth and learning. So, do you think it's all about children
              > themselves and does not have any relationship with Carroll's idea
              > about something (his criticism about life at that time or perhaps
              he
              > wants to express something through his book)?
              > Would you please inform me any sites that criticize Lewis Carroll
              > books and I will search under lewis carroll.
              >
              > Thank you!
              > INGRID



              to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Jim Buch
              ... think ... world, about ... uses you, ... the ... criticism ... Mouse s ... You said what I have long felt, but said it better and fuller than I had
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 25, 2003
                --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Adele Cammarata"
                <adelecammarata@l...> wrote:
                > Hi all, and welcome Ingrid.
                > Your question is interesting and other people already answered it. I
                think
                > that Alice is a story about finding the right place/size in the
                world, about
                > growing up without growing "mad", about using your brain unless it
                uses you,
                > about exploring the rules of language and behaviour, about finding
                the
                > right middle" in your life. And lots of other things.
                > We can also read it as a criticism about Victorian society, as a
                criticism
                > about justice and irrational use of it (see the trial scene and the
                Mouse's
                > tale), a criticism about the school system...
                >

                > Adele
                >

                You said what I have long felt, but said it better and fuller than I
                had previously thought.

                I have always felt that TTLG was more sad than was AAIW... and this
                was before I had read of the Carroll - Liddell split.

                AAIW is exactly as you say... about the complex problem of growing
                up.

                TTLG is more of a letting go of the little girl as she becomes a Queen
                herself.

                So, it is easy to speculate that AAIW is a sort of a story of love and
                advice and hope about the future of a little girl as she grows up.

                TTLG may be hypothesized to be more of a story of having grown up
                and become independent as a more grown up person. It might even be
                called a fairwell, of sorts.

                For all the brilliance of the words and phrases in TTLG, it is still
                more sad and not as exciting and hopeful as is AAIW.

                For some, this simplicity of intrepretation is not adequate for the
                magical devious tricky character that many call Lewis Carroll. But, it
                may be the foundation for the other multilevel higher intellectual
                intrepretations, nevertheless.

                Jim Buch
              • Abbie Smith
                THANK YOU FOR THE MESSAGE. I WOULD LIKE TO GET TO KNOW YOU. PLEASE E-MAIL ME BACK. THANKS. ABBIE. ... From: Jim Buch To:
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 6, 2003
                  THANK YOU FOR THE MESSAGE. I WOULD LIKE TO GET TO KNOW YOU. PLEASE E-MAIL ME
                  BACK. THANKS. ABBIE.









                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jim Buch" <jbuch@...>
                  To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 7:32 PM
                  Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: what is Alice in Wonderland about


                  > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Adele Cammarata"
                  > <adelecammarata@l...> wrote:
                  > > Hi all, and welcome Ingrid.
                  > > Your question is interesting and other people already answered it. I
                  > think
                  > > that Alice is a story about finding the right place/size in the
                  > world, about
                  > > growing up without growing "mad", about using your brain unless it
                  > uses you,
                  > > about exploring the rules of language and behaviour, about finding
                  > the
                  > > right middle" in your life. And lots of other things.
                  > > We can also read it as a criticism about Victorian society, as a
                  > criticism
                  > > about justice and irrational use of it (see the trial scene and the
                  > Mouse's
                  > > tale), a criticism about the school system...
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Adele
                  > >
                  >
                  > You said what I have long felt, but said it better and fuller than I
                  > had previously thought.
                  >
                  > I have always felt that TTLG was more sad than was AAIW... and this
                  > was before I had read of the Carroll - Liddell split.
                  >
                  > AAIW is exactly as you say... about the complex problem of growing
                  > up.
                  >
                  > TTLG is more of a letting go of the little girl as she becomes a Queen
                  > herself.
                  >
                  > So, it is easy to speculate that AAIW is a sort of a story of love and
                  > advice and hope about the future of a little girl as she grows up.
                  >
                  > TTLG may be hypothesized to be more of a story of having grown up
                  > and become independent as a more grown up person. It might even be
                  > called a fairwell, of sorts.
                  >
                  > For all the brilliance of the words and phrases in TTLG, it is still
                  > more sad and not as exciting and hopeful as is AAIW.
                  >
                  > For some, this simplicity of intrepretation is not adequate for the
                  > magical devious tricky character that many call Lewis Carroll. But, it
                  > may be the foundation for the other multilevel higher intellectual
                  > intrepretations, nevertheless.
                  >
                  > Jim Buch
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > to unsubscribe send a blank email to:
                  lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
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