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Time magazine article

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  • mikeindex@aol.com
    Did anyone else see the appalling piece on CLD (or AD, as the writer has it) in this week s Time magazine? The text is online at
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 9, 2002
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      Did anyone else see the appalling piece on CLD (or AD, as the writer has it) in this week's Time magazine?  The text is online at TIME.com: Malice in Wonderland? -- Oct. 07, 2002 (original title, what?) - or I've got a copy which I can send privately to anyone who wants it. I've written a letter of correction which, who knows, maybe Time will see fit to publish - maybe others would like to follow suit.

      Leading on from this, has anyone yet encountered the Francine Prose book ('Lives of the Muses' or some such title), which the Time writer references, and if so, what did you think of it?

      By the way, I eventually tracked down that quote I was looking for ('shivery affection'); so you can all stop looking.

      Cheers

      Mike
    • keith
      Mike, I didn t see it as I don t subscribe to rubbish! However, apart from the silly error of his name it is fairly standard stuff which says more about the
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 9, 2002
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        Mike,
         
        I didn't see it as I don't subscribe to rubbish!  However, apart from the silly error of his name it is fairly standard stuff which says more about the writer than it does about CLD.
         
        I don't see the Beggar Girl as being a suggestive photograph but I know many folk nowadays do.  However, it was widely circulated in the 1860's and it wasn't commented upon in such terms in those days. 
         
        Sutcliffe's 'Water Rats' a picture of naked boys was thought charming by many including Queen Vic but who would dare put it up now and risk being called a paedophile by the PC mob? 
         
        Nickel was very unwise to put the slant on the exhibition that he did.  I know why he did it but I abhor his motives.  Cheap trash is the level his book operates at.  Why could he not just put on an exhibition and leave the angst out of it?  Money?
         
        Keith
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 4:29 PM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Time magazine article

        Did anyone else see the appalling piece on CLD (or AD, as the writer has it) in this week's Time magazine?  The text is online at TIME.com: Malice in Wonderland? -- Oct. 07, 2002 (original title, what?) - or I've got a copy which I can send privately to anyone who wants it. I've written a letter of correction which, who knows, maybe Time will see fit to publish - maybe others would like to follow suit.

        Leading on from this, has anyone yet encountered the Francine Prose book ('Lives of the Muses' or some such title), which the Time writer references, and if so, what did you think of it?

        By the way, I eventually tracked down that quote I was looking for ('shivery affection'); so you can all stop looking.

        Cheers

        Mike


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      • mikeindex@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/9/02 5:40:14 PM GMT Daylight Time, ... Keith, I ve no idea why you ve chosen to attack Doug Nickel in this way, or what slant you mean.
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 9, 2002
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          In a message dated 10/9/02 5:40:14 PM GMT Daylight Time, keith@... writes:


          Nickel was very unwise to put the slant on the exhibition that he did.  I know why he did it but I abhor his motives.  Cheap trash is the level his book operates at.  Why could he not just put on an exhibition and leave the angst out of it?  Money?



          Keith,

          I've no idea why you've chosen to attack Doug Nickel in this way, or what 'slant' you mean.  I thought his essay one of the most knowledgeable and fair-minded I have read on CLD.  And I find comment on anyone's motives totally inappropriate.

          If anyone is interested in making up his/her own mind on the merits of the essay in question, Doug has kindly offered to email the text to anybody who would like it.  Please email me offlist and I will pass your names on to Doug.

          Cheers

          Mike
        • Jim Buch
          I d like to see Doug Nichel s essay. I also read the chapter on Alice Liddell in The Lives of the Muses by Francine Prose...... and took copious notes. I
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 9, 2002
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            I'd like to see Doug Nichel's essay.

            I also read the chapter on Alice Liddell in "The Lives of the Muses"
            by Francine Prose...... and took copious notes.

            I still need to sort them out.

            She [Ms Prose] gave a wonderful "proof" that Carroll couldn't be a
            pedophile, because of the openness he used in writing to various child
            friends about their meetings.

            The Mary Brown letter I quoted in which he wrote extensively about the
            girls and women staying with him doesn't meet the secrecy needs of the
            typical pedophile, for example.

            Jim


            --- In lewiscarroll@y..., mikeindex@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 10/9/02 5:40:14 PM GMT Daylight Time,
            > keith@c... writes:
            >
            >
            > > Nickel was very unwise to put the slant on the exhibition that he
            did. I
            > > know why he did it but I abhor his motives. Cheap trash is the
            level his
            > > book operates at. Why could he not just put on an exhibition and
            leave the
            > > angst out of it? Money?
            > >
            > >
            >
            > Keith,
            >
            > I've no idea why you've chosen to attack Doug Nickel in this way, or
            what
            > 'slant' you mean. I thought his essay one of the most knowledgeable
            and
            > fair-minded I have read on CLD. And I find comment on anyone's
            motives
            > totally inappropriate.
            >
            > If anyone is interested in making up his/her own mind on the merits
            of the
            > essay in question, Doug has kindly offered to email the text to
            anybody who
            > would like it. Please email me offlist and I will pass your names
            on to Doug.
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > Mike
          • keith
            Mike, I attacked Nickel, who I don t know as Douglas, because I ve read the book! You did not refer to him as Douglas in the initial stages when he quoted
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 9, 2002
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              Mike,
               
              I attacked Nickel, who I don't know as Douglas, because I've read the book!  You did not refer to him as 'Douglas' in the initial stages when he quoted K's book without consultation!
               
              CLD's photography does not need the type of sensationalism we often find in the tabloid press.
               
              If Nickel wants to send me anything further then feel free to give him my e mail address.  The exhibition of a fairly standard set of CLD's images obviously needed some sensational controversy to sell it to the American public.  A comment more upon the times we live in than upon CLD's photography.
               
              Keith
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:09 PM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Time magazine article

              In a message dated 10/9/02 5:40:14 PM GMT Daylight Time, keith@... writes:


              Nickel was very unwise to put the slant on the exhibition that he did.  I know why he did it but I abhor his motives.  Cheap trash is the level his book operates at.  Why could he not just put on an exhibition and leave the angst out of it?  Money?



              Keith,

              I've no idea why you've chosen to attack Doug Nickel in this way, or what 'slant' you mean.  I thought his essay one of the most knowledgeable and fair-minded I have read on CLD.  And I find comment on anyone's motives totally inappropriate.

              If anyone is interested in making up his/her own mind on the merits of the essay in question, Doug has kindly offered to email the text to anybody who would like it.  Please email me offlist and I will pass your names on to Doug.

              Cheers

              Mike


              to unsubscribe  send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • markisrael2
              About the Time magazine article, a dear old friend writes: Since the author didn t have any real research done, he takes the easy way out and uses this
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 10, 2002
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                About the Time magazine article, a dear old friend writes:

                "Since the author didn't have any real research done, he takes the
                easy way out and uses this 'yeah-right' sarcastic attitude to put
                doubt in the readers' minds that Carroll was innocent in his love
                for child-friends. The author not only shows that he has done
                little research by stating Carroll's real name was 'Arthur Dodgson,'
                but also by the quotations around 'girl-friend.' Since that word
                usually doesn't have a hyphen, he probably meant 'child-friends,'
                Carroll's common phrase. [...] No mention of other people on the
                boat when Carroll told the story. Readers, of course, will assume
                Alice was the only other."
              • markisrael2
                ... I haven t seen it, myself. But I hear by a grapevine that Prose s sources are all old: they do not include Leach, Lebailly, or the new diaries.
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 10, 2002
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                  Mike asks:

                  > has anyone yet encountered the
                  > Francine Prose book ('Lives of
                  > the Muses' or some such title)

                  I haven't seen it, myself. But I hear by a grapevine that Prose's
                  sources are all old: they do not include Leach, Lebailly, or the
                  new diaries.
                • markisrael2
                  About the _Time_ article, a dear old friend writes: Since the author didn t have any real research done, he takes the easy way out and uses this yeah-right
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 10, 2002
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                    About the _Time_ article, a dear old friend writes:

                    "Since the author didn't have any real research done, he takes the
                    easy way out and uses this 'yeah-right' sarcastic attitude to put
                    doubt in the readers' minds that Carroll was innocent in his love
                    for child-friends. The author not only shows that he has done
                    little research by stating Carroll's real name was 'Arthur Dodgson,'
                    but also by the quotations around 'girl-friend.' Since that word
                    usually doesn't have a hyphen, he probably meant 'child-friends,'
                    Carroll's common phrase. [...] No mention of other people on the
                    boat when Carroll told the story. Readers, of course, will assume
                    Alice was the only other. And isn't 'Malice in Wonderland' a good
                    ol' chestnut?"
                  • Jim Buch
                    ... Yes, that is correct. Her main source could well be Cohen Lewis Carroll . I forgot to check on her use of references, dumb old me. Jim
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 10, 2002
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                      --- In lewiscarroll@y..., "markisrael2" <MarkIsrael@a...> wrote:
                      > Mike asks:
                      >
                      > > has anyone yet encountered the
                      > > Francine Prose book ('Lives of
                      > > the Muses' or some such title)
                      >
                      > I haven't seen it, myself. But I hear by a grapevine that Prose's
                      > sources are all old: they do not include Leach, Lebailly, or the
                      > new diaries.

                      Yes, that is correct. Her main source could well be Cohen "Lewis
                      Carroll". I forgot to check on her use of references, dumb old me.

                      Jim
                    • keith
                      Mark, I agree with you on this - tripe journalism of the lowest nature. Keith ... From: markisrael2 To:
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 10, 2002
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                        Mark,

                        I agree with you on this - tripe journalism of the lowest nature.

                        Keith

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "markisrael2" <MarkIsrael@...>
                        To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:55 PM
                        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Time magazine article


                        > About the Time magazine article, a dear old friend writes:
                        >
                        > "Since the author didn't have any real research done, he takes the
                        > easy way out and uses this 'yeah-right' sarcastic attitude to put
                        > doubt in the readers' minds that Carroll was innocent in his love
                        > for child-friends. The author not only shows that he has done
                        > little research by stating Carroll's real name was 'Arthur Dodgson,'
                        > but also by the quotations around 'girl-friend.' Since that word
                        > usually doesn't have a hyphen, he probably meant 'child-friends,'
                        > Carroll's common phrase. [...] No mention of other people on the
                        > boat when Carroll told the story. Readers, of course, will assume
                        > Alice was the only other."
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > to unsubscribe send a blank email to:
                        lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
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