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Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD and Lorina (was: Why I'm Here)

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  • Maria Bodmann
    Dear Joel, ... Thanks so much for your response and kind words about Alice in the Shadows. We have 2/3rds of AIW done in shadow (starting from the caterpillar
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 1, 2000
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      Dear Joel,

      You said:
      >I enjoyed your original production when I saw it and I'm sure the new one
      >is even better.

      Thanks so much for your response and kind words about Alice in the Shadows.
      We have 2/3rds of AIW done in shadow (starting from the caterpillar to the
      cards attacking Alice in the trial) with one more episode to go (down the
      rabbit hole to the caterpillar.) Cliff & I have worked so hard to be as
      authentic as possible, i.e. - use Carroll's stage directions and all his
      words, verbatim, and to come up with modern parodies (like the Safety Dance
      for the Lobster Quadrille and Beautiful Soup to Beautiful Dreamer...)

      We thoroughly enjoyed playing for the 1998 LCSNA annual mtg in L.A. and
      would be happy to do so again. We now have a trio (instead of quintet)
      worked out for shorter programs/smaller venues.

      Joel, next time you're updating the Lewis Carroll home page, would you
      please include a link to the new Alice in the Shadows site:
      http://www.pacificnet.net/gamelan/alice

      Thank you so much!

      ttfn,
      maRia
      --
      Maria Bodmann
      http://www.pacificnet.net/gamelan/alice

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    • Joel Birenbaum
      ... I doubt that I will ever get around to reading all of these books, therefor I will assume from what you wrote that these books are explicit in their
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 3, 2000
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        At 12:04 PM 6/29/00 -0400, you wrote:
        >Hi Joel.
        >
        >I agree, there is no point in this discussion continuing until you have
        >become better acquainted with the data.
        >If you're interested in taking this further, I suggest you familiarise
        >yourself
        >
        >a. with the contents of CLD's library .
        >b. with his various writings on sexual morality, marriage etc.
        >
        >Have a look at Sterne, Swinburne, Meredith, Nathaniel Wanley, Alexander
        >Walker and the several other radical, sexually explicit or 'obscene' works
        >that Dodgson possessed.
        >
        >The Swinburne was withdrawn by the publisher soon after its release in 1866,
        >as being unfit for public consumption. It deals with sado-masochism,
        >lesbianism, and other 'perversions'.
        >Dodgson owned a first edition, and thought Swinburne 'the greatest living
        >master of language' [Leach, 'In the Shadow of the Dreamchild', p. 74;
        >Collingwood; p.229]
        >
        >The Wanley is described as 'a sexual freak show'.
        >
        >At the moment I suspect you are better informed about the popular mythic
        >image of Lewis Carroll, than about the fully documented reality.
        >Consequently, most of the time you just don't know what I am talking about,
        >which is frustrating and confusing for you.

        I doubt that I will ever get around to reading all of these books, therefor
        I will assume from what you wrote that these books are explicit in their
        nature. What conclusion do you draw from this other than that Carroll was
        not a prude?
        >
        >YOU write:
        >> When I re-read the book, I will post what I consider whining and people
        can

        >> decide for themselves. I look at this as a statement of fact as
        opposed to
        >> an insult.
        >
        >Oh dear. Do I understand from this that you are saying Karoline Leach is a
        >'whining pseudo-biographer'?
        >Is Matt right - are you joking? or is this a serious view?
        >If it is it seems pretty nasty.
        >
        >I can understand people who have invested a lot of emotional energy in
        >believing in a certain image of CLD finding the book upsetting (didn't
        >someone write to the Lewis Carroll Review to demand that all copies should
        be
        >burned?).

        If such a suggestion was made note that the LCS did not follow up on it.
        Karoline spoke at an LCS meeting and from what I hear, held her own. She
        was invited to speak at a LCSNA meeting as well, but couldn't attend due to
        bad health. If these two societies are so set in their ways, why would they
        invite her to speak?

        >But however cross you feel it doesn't give you the right to make personal
        >attacks like this.
        >
        >Without getting too heavy, maybe you should either retract your words or
        show
        >that they're justified.
        >
        >The book has been hailed as a piece of landmark scholarship - even by
        people
        >like Michael Bakewell, who do not necessarily agree with all its
        conclusions.
        >
        >Look at the reviews it has received, which are available on this site.
        >
        >What justification is there for dismissing it as a 'pseudo-biography'?
        Why do you think that is a dismissal? It doesn't seem to be a pure
        biography to me. I think in the book Karoline says as much. It is a book
        that certainly uses biographical data to prove a couple of important
        points, hence my characterization as a pseudo-biographer. I guess combined
        with the other remark it could be taken as dismissive. Again a poor choice
        of words on my part.

        Karoline, if a caterpillar asked you "What are you?" Would you answer, "I
        am a biographer." The other question will have to wait until I find the bit
        in the book. I am sure it will turn out to be another misconception on my
        part due to my negative attitude when I was reading it. The negative
        attitude was due to an evocative article written about the upcoming book in
        the London Times a year earlier.
        >
        >And here are the only two references to surviving members of the Dodgson
        >family:
        >
        >'Particular thanks are due to Charles Dodgson's great-great-niece, Beth
        Mead,
        >for sharing her family's unpublished memorabilia, [and] his great-nephew,
        >Philip Jaques, for giving over an afternoon to talk to me'
        >[opening sentence of 'Acknowledgements' section].
        >
        >'Today the members of the family who manage the estate are as open and
        >co-operative with literary historians and biographers as could be wished'
        >[p. 44].
        >
        >Which of these would you describe as 'whining about the Dodgson family's
        >treatment of
        >information (like some pseudo-biographers did)'?
        >
        >If this is really just my failure to get your joke, then I totally
        >apologise!.
        No need to apologize.

        >
        >Regards to all
        >
        >Mike
        >
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      • DOYLE60@aol.com
        ... biography to me. Karoline s book is a Biographical Argument or a
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 3, 2000
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          <<What justification is there for dismissing it as a 'pseudo-biography'?>>
          > Why do you think that is a dismissal? It doesn't seem to be a pure
          biography to me. >

          Karoline's book is a "Biographical Argument" or a "Biographical Correction,"
          and certainly not a biography. The term "pseudo-biography" implies it called
          itself a biography and wasn't. It's not insulting because it's not relavant.

          Goodnight,

          Matt
        • AnisaT@aol.com
          List, Again we have the irony of arguing about the meaning of words. Don t worry, I m not going to abuse or denigrate anyone. But if we understand anything
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 4, 2000
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            List,

            Again we have the irony of arguing about the meaning of words. Don't worry,
            I'm not going to abuse or denigrate anyone. But if we understand anything
            about Carroll it is that he was supremely able at recognising language for
            what it is, a rather imperfect, and necessarily so, way of interpreting the
            world. Carroll's most telling observation on this was 'mean more than we
            mean to express when we use them;' so a whole list ought to (and does) add up
            to more than the sum of its contributers! Carroll was one of the first
            great linguistic philosophers. About 70 years after Carroll wrote his famous
            observation, Wittgenstein observed that 'language is the limits of our world,
            and, decades later, Sam Beckett's protagonist in The Unnameable screamed ''Im
            in words, made of words!', Carroll's caution was exemplary. Unfortunately
            words have private, cultural and public meaning values (to mention but a few!
            They are slippery customers). This is why I've been asking the list to be
            particularly careful in its choice of words. Not only out of respect for
            each other, but out of respect for Lewis Carroll.

            If anyone called me a psuedo biographer, I'd laugh and say the bit you got
            wrong was the biographer! I'm a historian of ideas - and because I don't
            have the time or resources to adequately pursue the work I'm doing, I suppose
            you could call me a 'psuedo historian'. Although, out of decency, I would
            hope that you would recognise the fact that, although what I'm doing is
            certainly not popular (who on earth is genuinely interested in Carroll's
            BELIEFS when there are far more interesting and more easily misunderstood
            matters to be investigated, disputed and salivated over) at least it is an
            attempt to understand the Man's works by understanding the man himself.

            So please let's respect Carroll's legacy and in so doing respect each other -
            that way there'll be fewer bruised egos and frayed tempers.

            John Tufail
          • Bob Spark
            ... I would comment hear,hear , but have been abused for doing so in this forum. Bob Spark
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 4, 2000
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: AnisaT@... [mailto:AnisaT@...]
              > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 2:13 AM
              > To: lewiscarroll@egroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD and Lorina (was: Why I'm Here)
              >
              >
              > List,
              I would comment "hear,hear", but have been abused for doing so in this
              forum.

              Bob Spark
              >
              >
              >
              >please let's respect Carroll's legacy and in so doing
              > respect each other -
              > that way there'll be fewer bruised egos and frayed tempers.
              >
              > John Tufail
              >
              >
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            • AnisaT@aol.com
              Dear Maria, Having just had the chance to review your posting, I m kicking myself for being so slothful. I hope this is not too late, but you really must read
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 5, 2000
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                Dear Maria,

                Having just had the chance to review your posting, I'm kicking myself for
                being so slothful. I hope this is not too late, but you really must read a
                book by the French artist 'Grandville' called 'Un Autre Monde' (1844). He
                heavily influenced Tenniel (that is a matter of record) and I suspect that he
                also influenced Carroll. Anyone wanting to do authentic visual
                representations of AIW or Through the Looking Glass MUST see Glandville's
                work.

                The Two key illustrations, I suppose, are 'La Bataille des Cartes' (which
                show playing cards ranked - hearts of course - in a royal 'playground') and,
                of course, a footman dressed as a frog.

                Baudelaire wrote of Grandville 'With superhuman courage this man devoted his
                life to re-fashioning creation. He took it in his hands, wrung it,
                re-arranged it and annotated it; and nature was transformed into a
                fantasmagoria'. Carroll was doing with words what Grandville was doing with
                illustration. I think if you compare the works of both you will see that the
                two came sublimely together in the two Alice books.

                John Tufail
              • Maria Bodmann
                Dear John, Many thanks for your response and don t worry about being too late... We all do have lives behind this text, don t we? ... I ll look for this.
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 6, 2000
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                  Dear John,

                  Many thanks for your response and don't worry about being too late... We
                  all do have lives behind this text, don't we?

                  >Having just had the chance to review your posting, I'm kicking myself for
                  >being so slothful. I hope this is not too late, but you really must read a
                  >book by the French artist 'Grandville' called 'Un Autre Monde' (1844).
                  I'll look for this. It's never too late, I've made shadow characters for
                  2/3's of AIW (about 65 now) and am not against redoing characters if
                  necessary. Illustrators [besides Tenniel, my favorite] who were
                  inspirational are: Peter Newell, Gwynedd Hudson, A. Rado, and A.J. Jackson.

                  >He heavily influenced Tenniel (that is a matter of record) and I suspect
                  >that he
                  >also influenced Carroll. Anyone wanting to do authentic visual
                  >representations of AIW or Through the Looking Glass MUST see Glandville's
                  >work.
                  I just found a few illustrations from "Un Autre Monde" on the internet and
                  they're quite wonderful and whimsical. Will continue looking for the
                  specific ones you mentioned.

                  >The Two key illustrations, I suppose, are 'La Bataille des Cartes' (which
                  >show playing cards ranked - hearts of course - in a royal 'playground')
                  >and,
                  >of course, a footman dressed as a frog.

                  >Baudelaire wrote of Grandville 'With superhuman courage this man devoted
                  >his
                  >life to re-fashioning creation. He took it in his hands, wrung it,
                  >re-arranged it and annotated it; and nature was transformed into a
                  >fantasmagoria'. Carroll was doing with words what Grandville was doing
                  >with
                  >illustration. I think if you compare the works of both you will see that
                  >the
                  >two came sublimely together in the two Alice books.
                  Thanks so much again John, this is quite exciting!

                  Best wishes,
                  Maria

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                • Joel Birenbaum
                  For more on this topic read Creators of Wonderland by M. Mespoulet NY:Arrow Editions 1934. Joel ... he ... and, ... the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 10, 2000
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                    For more on this topic read Creators of Wonderland by M. Mespoulet NY:Arrow
                    Editions 1934.
                    Joel

                    At 06:55 AM 7/5/00 -0400, you wrote:
                    >Dear Maria,
                    >
                    >Having just had the chance to review your posting, I'm kicking myself for
                    >being so slothful. I hope this is not too late, but you really must read a
                    >book by the French artist 'Grandville' called 'Un Autre Monde' (1844). He
                    >heavily influenced Tenniel (that is a matter of record) and I suspect that
                    he
                    >also influenced Carroll. Anyone wanting to do authentic visual
                    >representations of AIW or Through the Looking Glass MUST see Glandville's
                    >work.
                    >
                    >The Two key illustrations, I suppose, are 'La Bataille des Cartes' (which
                    >show playing cards ranked - hearts of course - in a royal 'playground')
                    and,
                    >of course, a footman dressed as a frog.
                    >
                    >Baudelaire wrote of Grandville 'With superhuman courage this man devoted his
                    >life to re-fashioning creation. He took it in his hands, wrung it,
                    >re-arranged it and annotated it; and nature was transformed into a
                    >fantasmagoria'. Carroll was doing with words what Grandville was doing with
                    >illustration. I think if you compare the works of both you will see that
                    the
                    >two came sublimely together in the two Alice books.
                    >
                    >John Tufail
                    >
                    >
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