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RE: [lewiscarroll] Re: classism in assumptions of appropriateness

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  • Ralph Sims
    My view of the Victorian Carroll comes from Roberta Rogow s series of books that is based on an association between Dodgson and Arthur Conan Doyle. I sense
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 3, 2002
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      My view of the Victorian Carroll comes from Roberta Rogow's series of
      books that is based on an association between Dodgson and Arthur Conan
      Doyle. I sense she has done quite a bit of research into those times
      and while "fictionalizing" on many points, seems to paint a descriptive
      picture of England, especially as it relates to the "classes".

      > So I wonder, did poor people seem like this to gentlemen and ladies
      > of Carroll's day? Like a different variety of human being, to be
      > treated differently from how we would treat our own?
    • AnisaT@aol.com
      In a message dated 03/06/2002 20:15:55 GMT Daylight Time, ralph@ralphsimsrarebooks.com writes:
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 3, 2002
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        In a message dated 03/06/2002 20:15:55 GMT Daylight Time,
        ralph@... writes:

        << So I wonder, did poor people seem like this to gentlemen and ladies
        > of Carroll's day? Like a different variety of human being, to be
        > treated differently from how we would treat our own?
        >>
        This is a question that begs a number of other questions. Not least is what
        one means by the term poor. Don't forget, ever, that poverty in the 19th
        century was defined in terms of location and environment. For example, the
        'poor' in Charles Kingsley's view of the world were the rural poor, people
        who were literally controlled by the prices of corn (especially) and other
        foodstock. To Dickens, the 'poor' were the urban poor (though he romaticised
        them and did them little favours!). Carroll seems to have taken on the rural
        definition of 'poor' - the ragged rosy cheeked child. There is no evidence
        that he ever observed the poverty of urban England (Manchester, Birmingham
        etc) or had any real understanding of the differences between the two.
        Certainly Alton Locke had an effect on him, but this again was primarily
        rural.

        John Tufail
      • DOYLE60@aol.com
        John admonished us:
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 4, 2002
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          John admonished us:
          < Don't forget, ever, that poverty in the 19th century was defined in terms
          of location and environment. >

          I read this morning on the train this passage from Dickens' *The Old
          Curiosity Shop* (Chapter 52):
          ___

          "This first boy, Schoolmaster," said the Bachelor, "is John Owen; a lad of
          good parts, sir, and frank, honest temper; but too thoughtless, too playful,
          too lightheaded by far."
          ___

          Without John's comment I would have thought the boy had squared shoulders, a
          perfectly formed chin and well developed calf muscles.

          Matt
        • knaveofarts
          ... So I wonder, did poor people seem like this to gentlemen and ladies of Carroll s day? Like a different variety of human being, to be treated differently
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 4, 2002
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            --- In lewiscarroll@y..., "jenny2write" <woolf@j...> wrote:

            So I wonder, did poor people seem like this to gentlemen and
            ladies
            of Carroll's day? Like a different variety of human being, to be
            treated differently from how we would treat our own?


            $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



            "And the moral of that is - 'The more there is of mine, the less
            there is of yours.'" [The Mock Turtle's Story]
          • keith
            Matt, I think the best way to look at poverty is in some of the photographic images of the 19c but being careful not to make too much of a comparison with
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 4, 2002
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              Matt,

              I think the best way to look at poverty is in some of the photographic
              images of the 19c but being careful not to make too much of a comparison
              with today's world. An author's definition is too narrow - poverty is not
              having enough food on the table and not knowing where your next amount of
              income will come from. Few people had a home of their own and most families
              lived from week to week and had to put their youngsters into the mills at
              five years old. Poverty was rife in England throughout the 19 century and
              into the early part of the 20th century. In the town I lived in during the
              1940/50's a weekly visit to the pawn shop by some families was my definition
              of poverty, although compared to 19 century folk these people would be
              considered well off in actually having something that they could pawn!

              Keith


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <DOYLE60@...>
              To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 2:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: classism in assumptions of appropriateness


              > John admonished us:
              > < Don't forget, ever, that poverty in the 19th century was defined in
              terms
              > of location and environment. >
              >
              > I read this morning on the train this passage from Dickens' *The Old
              > Curiosity Shop* (Chapter 52):
              > ___
              >
              > "This first boy, Schoolmaster," said the Bachelor, "is John Owen; a lad of
              > good parts, sir, and frank, honest temper; but too thoughtless, too
              playful,
              > too lightheaded by far."
              > ___
              >
              > Without John's comment I would have thought the boy had squared shoulders,
              a
              > perfectly formed chin and well developed calf muscles.
              >
              > Matt
              >
              >
              > to unsubscribe send a blank email to:
              lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • AnisaT@aol.com
              In a message dated 04/06/2002 14:13:35 GMT Daylight Time, DOYLE60@aol.com writes:
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 5, 2002
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                In a message dated 04/06/2002 14:13:35 GMT Daylight Time, DOYLE60@...
                writes:

                << Without John's comment I would have thought the boy had squared shoulders,
                a
                perfectly formed chin and well developed calf muscles. >>

                Matt,

                This is humorous but does it have a point to it (see Neilson for references)!

                Regards

                John
              • DOYLE60@aol.com
                I m quite serious, John. I read your post the day before I read that
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 5, 2002
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                  < This is humorous but does it have a point to it (see Neilson for
                  references)! >>

                  I'm quite serious, John. I read your post the day before I read that passage
                  in *The Old Curiosity Shop*. If I hadn't, I probably wouldn't have
                  understood the lines completely. The point was that I was illustrating your
                  comment with an example, a citation, a back-up, a reinforcement, an
                  illustration.

                  Matt
                • AnisaT@aol.com
                  In a message dated 06/06/2002 04:50:44 GMT Daylight Time, DOYLE60@aol.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 6, 2002
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                    In a message dated 06/06/2002 04:50:44 GMT Daylight Time, DOYLE60@...
                    writes:

                    << I'm quite serious, John. I read your post the day before I read that
                    passage
                    in *The Old Curiosity Shop*. If I hadn't, I probably wouldn't have
                    understood the lines completely. The point was that I was illustrating your
                    comment with an example, a citation, a back-up, a reinforcement, an
                    illustration. >>


                    Hey Matt,

                    'For once' I was only joking, being light hearted! I was referring to
                    Neilson's wonderful children's musical fairytale 'The Point' Platng with
                    words.

                    John
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