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Re: [lewiscarroll] Lebailly's essay

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  • keith
    ... you ... I ve read it once again and I see nothing new there so why should we not stick to what we said and let the matter drop. If you think I have missed
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 30 11:44 PM
      > I'm afraid you are stuck with Outlook Express - it's the only thing I use!

      > 2. Of course old issues should not be raised again too soon, but surely
      you
      > are willing to make an exception if it concerns some completely new (part
      > of) theory?! I mean, Hugues' conclusion is quite interesting and I have
      > never read it anywhere before, so it should be explored, examined,
      > discussed in all possible ways. It's good to be restrictive, but it's much
      > worse to be too strict.

      I've read it once again and I see nothing new there so why should we not
      stick to what we said and let the matter drop.

      If you think I have missed some startling point then please enlighten me,
      but if it is merely the fact that Dodgson liked big girls as well as little
      girls then let's bury it as we agreed. It's dead! Before you jump on me
      once again, I'm not talking about speculation without evidence though, that
      needs no comment, it is simply someone's opinion.

      Hope you can read this with just the basic system on!

      Best wishes,

      Keith
    • KarolineLouise@aol.com
      Keith wrote ... Why bury it? I don t understand? As an issue it s hardly begun to be explored. And in the big wide world beyond Carrolianism hardly anyone
      Message 2 of 29 , May 1, 2001

        Keith wrote
        If you think I have missed some startling point then please enlighten me,
        but if it is merely the fact that Dodgson liked big girls as well as little
        girls then let's bury it as we agreed.  It's dead




        Why bury it?  I don't understand?  As an issue it's hardly begun to be
        explored. And in the big wide world beyond Carrolianism hardly anyone has
        even heard of it yet - as witness the witless articles appearing in US papers
        in response to the Liddell sale.

        There are so many questions raised by this new evidence, why bury them all?
        Did Mike really suggest that? I thought he just suggested an end to one
        aspect of the argument which was becoming repetitive (to wit my suggestion
        re. Mrs Liddell).

        Hugues' paper was thought-provoking why shouldn't it be commented on?

        And your suggestion that those agonised prayers of Dodgson's were a result of
        him feeling he might no be getting enough promotion prospects - well, this is
        a retrograde argument taking us back to RL Green and his idea that the guy
        was tearing himself apart because he occasionally fell asleep in the evening
        after a heavy college supper!


        I have to respect Cohen as being the first biographer to rid himself of that
        nonsensical view and to recognise that when a man starts writing things like
        "my heart is very heavy I resolve and pray but seem to beat the air", he is
        in serious trouble of some kind.  Dodgson in the 1860s is clearly in crisis,
        his life is spinning out of his grasp. He's losing his faith, turning away
        from God, repeatedly sinning in some compulsive destructive way.

        Sure, have your own opinion about  _what_  all that sin and pain and trouble
        might be - but don't try and de-pixel it into something much less than it
        really was.

        Karoline

      • HLebailly@aol.com
        Dear Mike, thank you for your concerns about the various misspellings of my first name : so long as no-one calls me Uggug, I don t mind at all ! What I did
        Message 3 of 29 , May 1, 2001
          Dear Mike,
          thank you for your concerns about the various misspellings of my first name :
          so long as no-one calls me Uggug, I don't mind at all !
          What I did feel necessary to set right was someone's alluding to me as Mr
          Hugues, whereas my surname is Lebailly indeed.
          The keys I use at Reims University (where I teach English to a group of BA
          students in contemporary history preparing competitive exams that would grant
          them admission to various schools of political science, on top of my main job
          at Paris I University) are on a 'Hughes' coat of arms key-ring I bought
          somewhere in Britain (Wales, maybe ?) - and Arthur Hughes was one of C. L.
          Dodgson's (and my own) favourite Pre-Raphaelite painters.
          With best wishes to all - and a thousand thanks for your almost unanymously
          appreciative reception of my New York talk - which makes me blush to the tip
          of my ears (in a Pigletty way).
          Love to all
          Hugues
        • HLebailly@aol.com
          I am very sorry, Keith, but when, about six years ago, I spent about a week at the (old) British Library s Manuscript Students Room feeding into my lap-top
          Message 4 of 29 , May 1, 2001
            I am very sorry, Keith, but when, about six years ago, I spent about a week
            at the (old) British Library's Manuscript Students Room feeding into my
            lap-top computer all the entries or bits of entries edited out of Green's
            edition, I only had time to copy what was directly relevant to my doctoral
            dissertation topic : meetings with artists, actors and actresses, and
            literary people, opinions on works of visual and performing arts. But Edward
            Wakeling is currently working on vol. 6, which will cover 1870, so, as he is
            not a member of this list, you could try and get in touch with him directly.
            With best wishes
            Hugues
          • keith
            ... From: KarolineLouise@aol.com To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Lebailly s essay Keith wrote
            Message 5 of 29 , May 1, 2001
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:51 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Lebailly's essay


              Keith wrote
              If you think I have missed some startling point then please enlighten me,
              but if it is merely the fact that Dodgson liked big girls as well as little
              girls then let's bury it as we agreed.  It's dead
              Why bury it?  I don't understand?  As an issue it's hardly begun to be
              explored. And in the big wide world beyond Carrolianism hardly anyone has
              even heard of it yet - as witness the witless articles appearing in US papers
              in response to the Liddell sale.
              We agreed to stop arguing about it as nobody had any new facts and the situation was getting heated.  It wasn't my idea to stop. The USA is hardly the place where you will find any balanced view of CLD, hence the articles in their papers.  I can imagine what they are saying and that's why, of course, it's being publicised over there.  More of our heritage swanning off to the big bucks. 

              There are so many questions raised by this new evidence, why bury them all?
              Did Mike really suggest that? I thought he just suggested an end to one
              aspect of the argument which was becoming repetitive (to wit my suggestion
              re. Mrs Liddell).
               
              Yes he did and it wasn't just about Mrs.L.  What new evidence?

              Hugues' paper was thought-provoking why shouldn't it be commented on?
               
              Because we were told not to raise the matter again and it didn't say anything we had not heard before! 

              And your suggestion that those agonised prayers of Dodgson's were a result of
              him feeling he might no be getting enough promotion prospects - well, this is
              a retrograde argument taking us back to RL Green and his idea that the guy
              was tearing himself apart because he occasionally fell asleep in the evening
              after a heavy college supper!
               
              I was merely putting a view based upon my own experiences at the same age.  I cannot see why Green would be so stupid as to put that argument but it hardly compares with the agony of being stuck in a dead end job in a monastry type environement with only academics to talk to.  No wonder Alice looked so good to him!

              I have to respect Cohen as being the first biographer to rid himself of that
              nonsensical view and to recognise that when a man starts writing things like
              "my heart is very heavy I resolve and pray but seem to beat the air", he is
              in serious trouble of some kind.  Dodgson in the 1860s is clearly in crisis,
              his life is spinning out of his grasp. He's losing his faith, turning away
              from God, repeatedly sinning in some compulsive destructive way.
               
              Agreed their is a crisis but not that it is necesarily of a religious nature.  Cohen never proved his case as you know.

              Sure, have your own opinion about  _what_  all that sin and pain and trouble
              might be - but don't try and de-pixel it into something much less than it really was.
               
              Read what I said again. I was not trying to minimise it just to point out that none of the 'explanations' have ever been proved.  In that case my opinion is as good as anyone else's.  I assure you that once someone comes up with some credible proof then I'll be only too happy to accept it.
               
              Best wishes,
               
              Keith
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            • keith
              ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Lebailly s essay ... week ...
              Message 6 of 29 , May 1, 2001
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <HLebailly@...>
                To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:16 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Lebailly's essay


                > I am very sorry, Keith, but when, about six years ago, I spent about a
                week
                > at the (old) British Library's Manuscript Students Room feeding into my
                > lap-top computer all the entries or bits of entries edited out of Green's
                > edition, I only had time to copy what was directly relevant to my doctoral
                > dissertation topic : meetings with artists, actors and actresses, and
                > literary people, opinions on works of visual and performing arts. But
                Edward
                > Wakeling is currently working on vol. 6, which will cover 1870, so, as he
                is
                > not a member of this list, you could try and get in touch with him
                directly.
                > With best wishes
                > Hugues
                >
                Thanks in any case - I'll have to wait for the next diary whenever it comes!

                Keith
              • Arne Moll
                At 12:52 1-5-01 +0100, Keith (who hasn t put his HTML-sending off, thanks dude) wrote: (etc.etc.) I assure you that once someone comes up with ... Proof for
                Message 7 of 29 , May 1, 2001
                  At 12:52 1-5-01 +0100, Keith (who hasn't put his HTML-sending off, thanks
                  dude) wrote:

                  (etc.etc.) I assure you that once someone comes up with
                  >some credible proof then I'll be only too happy to accept it.

                  Proof for WHAT? In order to find proof, let alone accept it, one first
                  needs to postulate a theory. And theories are usually discovered through
                  speculation, guessing, intuition, a hunch, whatever.
                  If we can't speculate anymore, if we can't suggest anything without
                  definite proof YET, we'll never get closer to the truth. And besides, it's
                  FUN to speculate, if it's done with serious facts and quotes, as Hugues was
                  trying to do.
                  For the record, in my first mail I was just saying that I would like some
                  further anaylsis of Hugues' theory, I wasn't saying we shouldn't
                  investigate it in the first place, as you seem to be doing.
                  Anyway, to be honest I'm getting rather tired of your demolishing every
                  possible way of discussing the topic of Dogdsons relgion, sexuality, or
                  whatever. It's interesting to some of us, okay? We want to know what the
                  deal was with this weird guy. Maybe you don't.
                  If you don't want to discuss it, just don't say anything, but don't spoil
                  the fun for us either.

                  Arne
                • keith
                  Arne, I m sorry if you are upset but I don t regard it fun, as you apparently do, to speculate that CLD was Jack the Ripper or a paedophile who was intent on
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 1, 2001
                    Arne,

                    I'm sorry if you are upset but I don't regard it fun, as you apparently do,
                    to speculate that CLD was Jack the Ripper or a paedophile who was intent on
                    abusing little girls - if he was alive it would be libellous.

                    I am naturally sorry that you are upset but I don't reply to abuse - there's
                    just no point in doing so.

                    Keith
                  • Arne Moll
                    ... Keith, I am really getting tired of this discussion and this is the last thing I ll say about it. You do not seem to realise that Carroll is not only
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 2, 2001
                      At 06:55 2-5-01 +0100, Keith wrote:
                      >Arne,
                      >
                      >I'm sorry if you are upset but I don't regard it fun, as you apparently do,
                      >to speculate that CLD was Jack the Ripper or a paedophile who was intent on
                      >abusing little girls - if he was alive it would be libellous.

                      Keith, I am really getting tired of this discussion and this is the last
                      thing I'll say about it.
                      You do not seem to realise that Carroll is not only fascinating because of
                      the brilliant books he wrote. Your problem, but if you deny it, you're
                      missing out on something.
                      There has always been the riddle and even mystery of his relationship to
                      the real Alice, other little girls, indeed his sexuality and the way he
                      looked at society. He provoked it himself! Even when he was alive people
                      were talking about him. How can you expect people let these strange things
                      pass just because of politeness or respect?

                      Face reality, it's part of Carroll-research as much as anything, whether
                      you like it or not.

                      The evidence that was at hand has until now been interpreted in a very
                      dubious way, to say the least. I think Karoline and Hugues have pointed
                      this out quite enough by now.
                      But we still have the riddles, which he created himself. Why are you trying
                      to deny that? What's wrong with trying to find out what really happened? We
                      wanna know what went on in his head! That's what biographers want! If I
                      read a biography on Marilyn Monroe, I also want to know about her
                      sexuality. Sure, her movies are interesting, but why was she such a big
                      phenomenon. It's just human nature to want to know about these things.
                      And well, if you want to compare a scientific biographical analysis with
                      speculation about Jack The Ripper, that's not only unfair to the people who
                      try to do serious research (indeed it is quite an insult I would think) but
                      it also shows that you have no understanding whatsoever of the variety and
                      complexity of the whole concept 'Lewis Carroll'.
                      I mean, have you ever talked to people about Carroll without discussing his
                      sexuality? I haven't, they always bring it up themselves.
                      Even if you don't think that Dodgson would have liked it, it's just part of
                      the whole 'Carroll-thing'. Why deny that? Why be so politically correct?
                      The man has been dead for over 100 years, we really do not have to show any
                      respect for his family or whatever, you know. We are doing research here.
                      Come on.

                      Arne
                    • AnisaT@aol.com
                      In a message dated 02/05/2001 23:18:15 GMT Daylight Time, keith@cheshire46.freeserve.co.uk writes:
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 3, 2001
                        In a message dated 02/05/2001 23:18:15 GMT Daylight Time,
                        keith@... writes:

                        << Agreed their is a crisis but not that it is necesarily of a religious
                        nature. Cohen never proved his case as you know. >>


                        Sorry Keith, have I missed something here? I'm very unclear about what case
                        this is that Cohen was trying to prove.

                        John
                      • mikeindex@aol.com
                        Keith, Arne s posting to you was not abusive. Rest assured that if he or anyone else writes one that is, I shall firmly request them to stop. It was perhaps
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 5, 2001
                          Keith,

                          Arne's posting to you was not abusive.  Rest assured that if he or anyone
                          else writes one that is, I shall firmly request them to stop.

                          It was perhaps abrasive in tone.  I think it's fair to point out that while
                          it's quite unusual for Arne to take this tone, it is perfectly habitual for
                          you, and if you think it's unacceptable you should really moderate your own
                          style.

                          By the way, I have been all through the archive and I can't find any post of
                          mine which could be understood as prohibiting any further discussion of CLD's
                          sexuality or taste in female company.  If anyone else misunderstood something
                          I said in this way, please understand the 'ban' is now lifted!  

                          However, if anyone raises a specific point which has been thoroughly dealt
                          with before, I shall continue to point them gently in the direction of the
                          archive.  And if a discussion becomes overheated or hopelessly bogged down, I
                          shall suggest putting a stop to it.  This should _not_ be taken to mean that
                          the subject is never to be raised again!

                          Hope this makes things clear.

                          Cheers

                          Mike
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