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Jabberwocky

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  • amelie beaulieu
    Hi everybody! I m new to this Lewis Carroll group and he is one of my favorite author in the English literature. I m giving a speech in my poetry class on
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 9, 2001
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      Hi everybody!

      I'm new to this Lewis Carroll group and he is one of
      my favorite author in the English literature. I'm
      giving a speech in my poetry class on Carroll's famous
      masterpiece "Jabberwocky". That's why I'd like to do
      survey on what should I put the emphasis on during
      this speech. Of course I already have a good idea but
      I'd like to know your opinion.
      Thank you in advance!
      Amy

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    • Dayna McCausland
      Well, where to start. I guess I only have trivia to contribute. It seems to be considered as the most famous nonsense poem in the English language. It is
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 10, 2001
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        Well, where to start.
        I guess I only have trivia to contribute.
        It seems to be considered as the most famous "nonsense" poem in the English language.

        It is also probably the hardest one of Carroll's to translate because of the manufactured words.

        I was at a lecture 2 weeks ago where a professor unveiled his translation of this poem into Sanskrit. He believes he is the first person to
        translate the poem into that language and he showed how he went about creating the words (a very interesting way for me view the subject).
        I mention this to show that it is still current over 100 years after it was published.

        Joseph Brabant's "Some Observations on Jaberwocky" Cheshire Cat Press is a great book to consult as it covers many bases in a short paper
        but unfortunately it was a limited edition (177 copies) and hard to come across.

        The Lewis Carroll Society of Canada plans to publish a book of parodies of Jabberwocky in 2001. Hilda Bohem has been collecting them for
        well over a year now and has found 120 of them at last count. This could make it the most parodied of Carroll's poems (himself a master of
        parody).

        The worst rendition of the poem can probably be found in a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) version of Through the Looking Glass
        recorded in 1947. So if you have to read the poem out loud please, please, please don't use the same da da da da da da da da beat and
        monotone found there.
        Good luck on your speech.
        Dayna


        amelie beaulieu wrote:

        > Hi everybody!
        >
        > I'm new to this Lewis Carroll group and he is one of
        > my favorite author in the English literature. I'm
        > giving a speech in my poetry class on Carroll's famous
        > masterpiece "Jabberwocky". That's why I'd like to do
        > survey on what should I put the emphasis on during
        > this speech. Of course I already have a good idea but
        > I'd like to know your opinion.
        > Thank you in advance!
        > Amy
        >
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        > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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        >
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      • DOYLE60@aol.com
        Hi Amy, The usual thing to emphasize is that readers of the poem intuitively understand some of the nonsense words even though they have never heard them
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 10, 2001
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          Hi Amy,
          The usual thing to emphasize is that readers of the poem intuitively
          understand some of the nonsense words even though they have never heard them
          before. Galumphing is the best example, "Galloping in triumph."
          Many commentators have claimed the poem is written in "traditional" ballad
          form. I like to point out that it is not. It may rhyme ABAB (with the A's
          optional), as traditional but the line lengths are 4 beats, 4 beats, 4 beats,
          3 beats. This is a bit odd. The rhyme lines (B's) having different lengths
          --- not totally unusual in poetry but a bit different. You may like to
          address what this effect has on the reading. What does the lost beat do? I
          think the lost beat has the most effect on the second and third stanza.

          "Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
          The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
          Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
          The frumious Bandersnatch!'

          "The frumious Bandersnatch!" ends a beat short, suggesting it comes quickly,
          and a pause the speaker of the poem has to see the reaction of his listener.
          I imagine the father speaking the last line a little quickly, turning his
          head to the side, rising his browse, observing his son's reaction to the
          words. Than he continues:

          He took his vorpal sword in hand:
          Long time the manxome foe he sought --
          So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
          And stood awhile in thought.

          "And stood awhile in thought" is a perfect line for the missing beat,
          obviously representing the thought, solitude.

          How the form works with the story is an obvious thing for me but one I
          haven't see written about. The form Carroll chose effected his writing. If
          he were to make the last line 4 beats instead, would he have simply added an
          adjective or something to lengthen the line or would he have come up with
          something different? I'd like to think he was effected by the length of the
          last line. It works for me.

          Matt

          << I'm new to this Lewis Carroll group and he is one of
          my favorite author in the English literature. I'm
          giving a speech in my poetry class on Carroll's famous
          masterpiece "Jabberwocky". That's why I'd like to do
          survey on what should I put the emphasis on during
          this speech. Of course I already have a good idea but
          I'd like to know your opinion.
          Thank you in advance!
          Amy >>
        • amelie beaulieu
          Hi, Thank you for both of you Matt and Dyana. Actually your suggestions helped me a lot. I had to do a half an hour speech on this poem which is quite long
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 10, 2001
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            Hi,

            Thank you for both of you Matt and Dyana. Actually
            your suggestions helped me a lot. I had to do a half
            an hour speech on this poem which is quite long
            considering that english is not my first language. But
            it was a great challenge to explain this poem in
            details. Basically one of my point was that
            "Jabberwocky" sounds like a mock-epic simply because
            Carroll's seems to make fun out of "the adults which
            are writting serious stories to scare the children"
            (well I went deeper than that) and Matt's point helped
            me a lot because the rythm was ,indeed , unusual. The
            teacher was very impressed and I'm happy that
            everything finally went fine.
            Thank you again!
            Amy


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          • Mark Burstein
            ... translation of this poem into Sanskrit. He believes he is the first person to translate the poem into that language and he showed how he went about
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 10, 2001
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              > I was at a lecture 2 weeks ago where a professor unveiled his
              translation of this poem into Sanskrit. He believes he is the first
              person to translate the poem into that language and he showed how he
              went about creating the words (a very interesting way for me view the
              subject).

              Dayna -
              I hope this was Professor Aklujkar, who is planning to publish an
              article of his translation of Jabberwocky into Sanskrit in a
              forthcoming "Knight Letter". If not, someone is in for a surprise!
              Mark
              wrabbit
            • Dayna McCausland
              It is- how come you re so far ahead of me- I was going to ask permission to publish his translation (Canadian content you know- flag waving, rah, rah!) Dayna
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 11, 2001
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                It is- how come you're so far ahead of me- I was going to ask permission to
                publish his translation (Canadian content you know- flag waving, rah, rah!)
                Dayna
                At least I heard it first!
                I can yell at you in person in NY ; )

                Mark Burstein wrote:

                >
                > > I was at a lecture 2 weeks ago where a professor unveiled his
                > translation of this poem into Sanskrit. He believes he is the first
                > person to translate the poem into that language and he showed how he
                > went about creating the words (a very interesting way for me view the
                > subject).
                >
                > Dayna -
                > I hope this was Professor Aklujkar, who is planning to publish an
                > article of his translation of Jabberwocky into Sanskrit in a
                > forthcoming "Knight Letter". If not, someone is in for a surprise!
                > Mark
                > wrabbit
                >
                > to unsubscribe send a blank email to: lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
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              • deadwriteprods@yahoo.com
                Does anyone else remember a pop song that used the words of Jabberwocky as its basis? I can sing the damn thing with no problem (it was quite a catchy little
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 10, 2001
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                  Does anyone else remember a pop song that used the words of
                  Jabberwocky as its basis? I can sing the damn thing with no problem
                  (it was quite a catchy little tune), but the name of the performer
                  eludes my addled brain. I think it came out (in Britain, anyway)
                  around the beginning of the 70s.
                  Forgetfully yours,
                  Bruce (with apologies for not correctly introducing myself in my
                  maiden post about JtR.)
                • AnisaT@aol.com
                  I believe there was a group Called Ambrosia who released an album called Jabberwocky that had a couple of songs with Jabberwocky-type themes. I know that
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 10, 2001
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                    I believe there was a group Called Ambrosia who released an album called
                    Jabberwocky that had a couple of songs with Jabberwocky-type themes. I know
                    that Marianne Faithful actually released a rather good 'Jabberwocky'. There
                    is/was at least one well known group called Jabberwocky.
                  • deadwriteprods@yahoo.com
                    ... called ... themes. I know ... good Jabberwocky . There ... Thanks for the lead. I rounded up the usual suspects on the internet for Ambrosia, but found
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 11, 2001
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                      --- In lewiscarroll@y..., AnisaT@a... wrote:
                      >
                      > I believe there was a group Called Ambrosia who released an album
                      called
                      > Jabberwocky that had a couple of songs with Jabberwocky-type
                      themes. I know
                      > that Marianne Faithful actually released a rather
                      good 'Jabberwocky'. There
                      > is/was at least one well known group called Jabberwocky.

                      Thanks for the lead. I rounded up the usual suspects on the internet
                      for Ambrosia, but found no Jabberwocky. However, by following a link,
                      I discovered a single by an outfit called the Bards. I think this is
                      the one I was looking for. Anyone else recall the song?
                    • knaveofarts
                      Anybody got an idea why Carroll titled his poem Jabberwocky, instead of Jabberwock. ? The poem [TTLG,C1] uses the word Jabberwock three times, but not
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 17, 2002
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                        Anybody got an idea why Carroll titled his poem "Jabberwocky,"
                        instead of "Jabberwock."? The poem [TTLG,C1] uses the
                        word "Jabberwock" three times, but not "Jabberwocky."

                        Acc. to Carroll himself, "jabber" means "excited and voluble
                        discussion." My dictionary defines jabber, v.i.&t. To talk or utter
                        rapidly, indistinctly, or unintelligibly; to chatter. n. Act of
                        jabbering; incoherent utterance; gibberish.

                        Carroll also said that the Anglo-Saxon word "wocer" or "wocor"
                        signifies "offspring" or "fruit," so that "jabberwock" means "the
                        result of much excited discussion."

                        Is "jabberwocky" the poem, of which the "jabberwock" is just it's
                        personfication? Did the vorpal sword-boy put a stop to free or
                        irrelevant discussion?

                        In any case, the first and last verses are the same, so that
                        whatever our hero did, it didn't change anything. He got a head to
                        mount on a wall for a conversation-piece. The slithy toves,
                        borogoves, and mome raths kept on doing their thing.
                      • Mark Israel
                        Jabberwocky is a poem about the Jabberwock, in the same way that the Odyssey is a poem about Odysseus, the Iliad is a poem about Ilium (Troy), the Aeneid is
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 17, 2002
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                          "Jabberwocky" is a poem about the Jabberwock, in the same way that
                          the Odyssey is a poem about Odysseus, the Iliad is a poem about Ilium
                          (Troy), the Aeneid is a poem about Aeneas, "victory" is the state of
                          the victor... Maybe someone else can think of a closer analogue.
                        • jopie
                          ... I can t, except that wocky is very close to wacky . Maybe Carroll had this in mind too?
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 17, 2002
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                            On 17 Nov 2002 at 18:12, Mark Israel wrote:

                            > "Jabberwocky" is a poem about the Jabberwock, in the same way that
                            > the Odyssey is a poem about Odysseus, the Iliad is a poem about Ilium
                            > (Troy), the Aeneid is a poem about Aeneas, "victory" is the state of
                            > the victor... Maybe someone else can think of a closer analogue.
                            >

                            I can't, except that 'wocky' is very close to 'wacky'. Maybe Carroll had
                            this in mind too?
                          • Mark Israel
                            http://www.m-w.com dates wacky as circa 1935 . But it also says perhaps from English dialect _whacky_ fool . So it s conceivable Carroll knew that, but I
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 17, 2002
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                              http://www.m-w.com dates "wacky" as "circa 1935". But it also
                              says "perhaps from English dialect _whacky_ fool". So it's
                              conceivable Carroll knew that, but I don't think he used much dialect.
                            • Bryan Talbot
                              ... He uses North Eastern dialect in Sylvi and Bruno. Bryan _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-talbot.com Nice prints! Visit:
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 17, 2002
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                                > So it's
                                > conceivable Carroll knew that, but I don't think he used much dialect.

                                He uses North Eastern dialect in Sylvi and Bruno.

                                Bryan

                                _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-talbot.com

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                              • Keith Wright
                                Brian, sorry should have said before my only excuse being that my copy took over a week to arrive. It was very good - look forward to the finished thing. Keith
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 20, 2004
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                                  Brian,

                                  sorry should have said before my only excuse being that my copy took over a
                                  week to arrive.

                                  It was very good - look forward to the finished thing.

                                  Keith
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Bryan Talbot" <bryan.talbot@...>
                                  To: "lewiscarroll" <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 7:39 PM
                                  Subject: [lewiscarroll] Jabberwocky


                                  >
                                  > Did anybody see my adaptation of Jabberwocky, given as a free supplement
                                  > in
                                  > the last Bandersnatch? Anybody like it? (Gulp).
                                  >
                                  > Bryan
                                  >
                                  > _______________________________________________
                                  > http://www.bryan-talbot.com
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                                  > ALICE IN SUNDERLAND homepage:
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                                  >
                                  > Nice prints! Visit:
                                  >
                                  > http://podgallery.com/talbot
                                  >
                                  > Luther Arkwright website:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.modernvikings.com/luther-arkwright/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > visit our homepage at:
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                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/
                                  >
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                                • Bryan Talbot
                                  ... Many thanks, Keith. Also to the members who emailed me direct. I tried to stay close to Tenniel and my perception of Carroll s intent. It s always good to
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Nov 20, 2004
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                                    > It was very good - look forward to the finished thing.
                                    >
                                    > Keith

                                    Many thanks, Keith. Also to the members who emailed me direct.

                                    I tried to stay close to Tenniel and my perception of Carroll's intent. It's
                                    always good to get positive feedback. Positive criticism is also good. EG,
                                    as a result, I'm going to return to it and rework some of the anatomy - the
                                    odd finger or shape of leg - on one or two panels!

                                    Bryan

                                    _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-talbot.com

                                    ALICE IN SUNDERLAND homepage:

                                    http://www.bryan-talbot.com/alice/index.html

                                    Nice prints! Visit:

                                    http://podgallery.com/talbot

                                    Luther Arkwright website:

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                                  • Kate
                                    Hi Bryan - when I retrieve my copy of the last LCS journal from whoever has it in this house. . . .:( I have a 15 year old son who has a burning ambition to
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Nov 20, 2004
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                                      Hi Bryan - when I retrieve my copy of the last LCS journal from whoever has it in this house. . . .:(  I have a 15 year old son who has a burning ambition to become an illustrator, it has disappeared into his room and never came out again, so i guess he likes it! 
                                       
                                      Best, Kate
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 8:39 AM
                                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Jabberwocky

                                      Did anybody see my adaptation of Jabberwocky, given as a free supplement in
                                      the last Bandersnatch? Anybody like it? (Gulp).

                                      Bryan

                                      _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-talbot.com

                                      ALICE IN SUNDERLAND homepage:

                                      http://www.bryan-talbot.com/alice/index.html

                                      Nice prints! Visit:

                                      http://podgallery.com/talbot

                                      Luther Arkwright website:

                                      http://www.modernvikings.com/luther-arkwright/



                                      visit our homepage  at:

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                                    • Bryan Talbot
                                      ... in this house. . . .:(  I have a 15 year old son who has a burning ambition to become an illustrator, it has disappeared into his room and never came out
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Nov 20, 2004
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                                        >Hi Bryan - when I retrieve my copy of the last LCS journal from whoever has it
                                        in this house. . . .:(  I have a 15 year old son who has a burning ambition
                                        to become an illustrator, it has disappeared into his room and never came
                                        out >again, so i guess he likes it! 

                                        Thanks, Kate. I'll take that as a positive review!

                                        Bryan

                                        _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-talbot.com

                                        ALICE IN SUNDERLAND homepage:

                                        http://www.bryan-talbot.com/alice/index.html

                                        Nice prints! Visit:

                                        http://podgallery.com/talbot

                                        Luther Arkwright website:

                                        http://www.modernvikings.com/luther-arkwright/
                                      • jenny2write
                                        ... intent. It s ... good. EG, ... anatomy - the ... I also liked it, and will definitely buy the finished item when it comes out. Any date for publication of
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Nov 22, 2004
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                                          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Talbot <bryan.talbot@b...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > It was very good - look forward to the finished thing.
                                          > >
                                          > > Keith
                                          >
                                          > Many thanks, Keith. Also to the members who emailed me direct.
                                          >
                                          > I tried to stay close to Tenniel and my perception of Carroll's
                                          intent. It's
                                          > always good to get positive feedback. Positive criticism is also
                                          good. EG,
                                          > as a result, I'm going to return to it and rework some of the
                                          anatomy - the
                                          > odd finger or shape of leg - on one or two panels!
                                          >
                                          > Bryan

                                          I also liked it, and will definitely buy the finished item when it
                                          comes out. Any date for publication of the whole yet?
                                          > _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-
                                          talbot.com
                                          >
                                          > ALICE IN SUNDERLAND homepage:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.bryan-talbot.com/alice/index.html
                                          >
                                          > Nice prints! Visit:
                                          >
                                          > http://podgallery.com/talbot
                                          >
                                          > Luther Arkwright website:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.modernvikings.com/luther-arkwright/
                                        • Bryan Talbot
                                          ... Many thanks. ... Fraid not - it s well over a year away. Bryan _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-talbot.com ALICE IN
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Nov 22, 2004
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                                            > I also liked it, and will definitely buy the finished item when it
                                            > comes out.

                                            Many thanks.

                                            >Any date for publication of the whole yet?

                                            'Fraid not - it's well over a year away.


                                            Bryan

                                            _______________________________________________ http://www.bryan-talbot.com

                                            ALICE IN SUNDERLAND homepage:

                                            http://www.bryan-talbot.com/alice/index.html

                                            Nice prints! Visit:

                                            http://podgallery.com/talbot

                                            Luther Arkwright website:

                                            http://www.modernvikings.com/luther-arkwright/
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