Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Llandudno Alice Day

Expand Messages
  • Keith W
    All, Llandudno are planning an ‘Alice’ day on 3rd May this year. Went well last year so anyone wanting a weekend break could do worse as it is the
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 2 11:42 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      All,
       
      Llandudno are planning an ‘Alice’ day on 3rd May this year. Went well last year so anyone wanting a weekend break could do worse as it is the Victorian Extravaganza over that weekend also.
       
      Keith W
    • angeldance66
      I wonder if the word snarky existed in Carroll s time? snark·y (snärk) adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 3 3:38 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?


        snark·y (snärk)
        adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
        1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
        2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
        [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]

        Jen


        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Mahendra,
        >
        > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
        > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
        > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
        >
        > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his class)
        > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
        > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
        > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
        >
        > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
        > of such drugs.
        >
        > They were , in general, over the counter.
        >
        > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even existed
        > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
        > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
        > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > JT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts <knaveofarts@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
        > >
        > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
        > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
        > >
        > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
        > >
        > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be
        > > taken to prison?
        > >
        > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
        > >
        > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else
        > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought
        > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
        > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • John Tufail
        Hi Jen, i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 3 4:37 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Jen,
           
          i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched.  However, the issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway.  It is hardly appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll created.
           
          Regards
           
          JT

          On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 <jenifer@...> wrote:
           


          I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?

          snark·y (snärk)
          adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
          1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
          2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
          [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]

          Jen

          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mahendra,
          >
          > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
          > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
          > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
          >
          > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his class)
          > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
          > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
          > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
          >
          > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
          > of such drugs.
          >
          > They were , in general, over the counter.
          >
          > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even existed
          > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
          > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
          > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > JT
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
          > >
          > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
          > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
          > >
          > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
          > >
          > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be
          > > taken to prison?
          > >
          > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
          > >
          > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else
          > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought
          > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
          > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >


        • angeldance66
          Hmmm John, rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable, irascible ...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts. Off
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 3 5:49 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
            irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.

            Off with its head!

            :-)

            Jen

            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Jen,
            >
            > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
            > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
            > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
            > created.
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > JT
            >
            > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 <jenifer@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
            > >
            > > snark·y (snärk)
            > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
            > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
            > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
            > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
            > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
            > >
            > > Jen
            > >
            > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Mahendra,
            > > >
            > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
            > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
            > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
            > > >
            > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
            > > class)
            > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
            > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
            > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
            > > >
            > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
            > > > of such drugs.
            > > >
            > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
            > > >
            > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
            > > existed
            > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
            > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
            > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > >
            > > > JT
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > **
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
            > > > >
            > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
            > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
            > > > >
            > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
            > > > >
            > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
            > > -be
            > > > > taken to prison?
            > > > >
            > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
            > > > >
            > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
            > > else
            > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
            > > thought
            > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
            > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • angeldance66
            Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 3 5:51 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

              --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" <jenifer@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
              > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
              >
              > Off with its head!
              >
              > :-)
              >
              > Jen
              >
              > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Jen,
              > >
              > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
              > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
              > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
              > > created.
              > >
              > > Regards
              > >
              > > JT
              > >
              > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 <jenifer@> wrote:
              > >
              > > > **
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
              > > >
              > > > snark·y (snärk)
              > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
              > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
              > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
              > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
              > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
              > > >
              > > > Jen
              > > >
              > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Mahendra,
              > > > >
              > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
              > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
              > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
              > > > >
              > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
              > > > class)
              > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
              > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
              > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
              > > > >
              > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
              > > > > of such drugs.
              > > > >
              > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
              > > > >
              > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
              > > > existed
              > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
              > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
              > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
              > > > >
              > > > > Regards
              > > > >
              > > > > JT
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > **
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
              > > > > >
              > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
              > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
              > > > -be
              > > > > > taken to prison?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
              > > > else
              > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
              > > > thought
              > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
              > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Mahendra Singh
              I m too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word snark d
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 6 5:20 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                —Mahendra

                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                Illustration Samples
                Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                follow me on Twitter  
                follow me on Tumblr



                To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                From: jenifer@...
                Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                 

                Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                >
                > Off with its head!
                >
                > :-)
                >
                > Jen
                >
                > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Jen,
                > >
                > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                > > created.
                > >
                > > Regards
                > >
                > > JT
                > >
                > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                > >
                > > > **
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                > > >
                > > > snark·y (snärk)
                > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                > > >
                > > > Jen
                > > >
                > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                > > > >
                > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                > > > >
                > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                > > > class)
                > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                > > > >
                > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                > > > > of such drugs.
                > > > >
                > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                > > > >
                > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                > > > existed
                > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                > > > >
                > > > > Regards
                > > > >
                > > > > JT
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > **
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                > > > > >
                > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                > > > -be
                > > > > > taken to prison?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                > > > else
                > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                > > > thought
                > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >


              • John Tufail
                Hi Mahendra, Please clarify conclusively and cite! Regards Jt ... Hi Mahendra,   Please clarify conclusively and cite!   Regards   Jt     On Wed, Mar
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 6 4:51 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Mahendra,
                   
                  Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  Jt
                   


                   
                  On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                   

                  I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                  —Mahendra

                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                  • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                  The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                  Illustration Samples
                  Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                  follow me on Twitter  
                  follow me on Tumblr



                  To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                  From: jenifer@...
                  Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                  Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                   

                  Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                  --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                  > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                  >
                  > Off with its head!
                  >
                  > :-)
                  >
                  > Jen
                  >
                  > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Jen,
                  > >
                  > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                  > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                  > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                  > > created.
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > >
                  > > JT
                  > >
                  > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > **
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                  > > >
                  > > > snark·y (snärk)
                  > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                  > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                  > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                  > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                  > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                  > > >
                  > > > Jen
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                  > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                  > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                  > > > class)
                  > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                  > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                  > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                  > > > > of such drugs.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                  > > > existed
                  > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                  > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                  > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Regards
                  > > > >
                  > > > > JT
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > **
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                  > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                  > > > -be
                  > > > > > taken to prison?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                  > > > else
                  > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                  > > > thought
                  > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                  > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >



                • Mahendra Singh
                  look here … snark d? best Mahendra ... MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA • The
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 6 5:02 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    look here … snark'd?

                    best
                    Mahendra

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                    • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                    The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                    Illustration Samples
                    Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                    follow me on Twitter  
                    follow me on Tumblr



                    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                    From: johntufail@...
                    Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                     

                    Hi Mahendra,
                     
                    Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    Jt
                     


                     
                    On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                     

                    I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                    —Mahendra

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                    • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                    The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                    Illustration Samples
                    Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                    follow me on Twitter  
                    follow me on Tumblr



                    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                    From: jenifer@...
                    Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                    Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                     

                    Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                    > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                    >
                    > Off with its head!
                    >
                    > :-)
                    >
                    > Jen
                    >
                    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Jen,
                    > >
                    > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                    > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                    > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                    > > created.
                    > >
                    > > Regards
                    > >
                    > > JT
                    > >
                    > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > **
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                    > > >
                    > > > snark·y (snärk)
                    > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                    > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                    > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                    > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                    > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                    > > >
                    > > > Jen
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                    > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                    > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                    > > > class)
                    > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                    > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                    > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                    > > > > of such drugs.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                    > > > existed
                    > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                    > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                    > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Regards
                    > > > >
                    > > > > JT
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > **
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                    > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                    > > > -be
                    > > > > > taken to prison?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                    > > > else
                    > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                    > > > thought
                    > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                    > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >






                  • John Tufail
                    Actually what I wanted was the precise quote from Doug. You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 6 5:35 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.
                       
                      Also, what could be possibly be the link? 
                       
                      jt

                      On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                       

                      look here … snark'd?

                      best

                      Mahendra

                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                      • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                      The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                      Illustration Samples
                      Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                      follow me on Twitter  
                      follow me on Tumblr



                      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                      From: johntufail@...
                      Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                       

                      Hi Mahendra,
                       
                      Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      Jt
                       


                       
                      On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                       

                      I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                      —Mahendra

                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                      • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                      The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                      Illustration Samples
                      Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                      follow me on Twitter  
                      follow me on Tumblr



                      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                      From: jenifer@...
                      Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                       

                      Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                      --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                      > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                      >
                      > Off with its head!
                      >
                      > :-)
                      >
                      > Jen
                      >
                      > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Jen,
                      > >
                      > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                      > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                      > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                      > > created.
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > >
                      > > JT
                      > >
                      > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > **
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                      > > >
                      > > > snark·y (snärk)
                      > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                      > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                      > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                      > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                      > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                      > > >
                      > > > Jen
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                      > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                      > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                      > > > class)
                      > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                      > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                      > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                      > > > > of such drugs.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                      > > > existed
                      > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                      > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                      > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Regards
                      > > > >
                      > > > > JT
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > **
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                      > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                      > > > -be
                      > > > > > taken to prison?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                      > > > else
                      > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                      > > > thought
                      > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                      > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >







                    • Doug Howick
                      John, Mahendra, See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm Kind regards doug-colour.JPG From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 7 3:34 AM
                      • 0 Attachment

                        John, Mahendra,

                        See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm

                        Kind regards

                         

                        doug-colour.JPG

                         

                        From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Tufail
                        Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 12:36 PM
                        To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                         

                         

                        Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.

                         

                        Also, what could be possibly be the link? 

                         

                        jt

                        On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                         

                        look here … snark'd?

                        best


                        Mahendra

                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                        • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                        The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                        Illustration Samples
                        Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                        follow me on Twitter  
                        follow me on Tumblr



                        To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                        From: johntufail@...
                        Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                         

                         

                        Hi Mahendra,

                         

                        Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!

                         

                        Regards

                         

                        Jt

                         



                         

                        On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                         

                         

                        I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                        —Mahendra

                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                        • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                        The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                        Illustration Samples
                        Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                        follow me on Twitter  
                        follow me on Tumblr



                        To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                        From: jenifer@...
                        Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                         


                        Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                        > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                        >
                        > Off with its head!
                        >
                        > :-)
                        >
                        > Jen
                        >
                        > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Jen,
                        > >
                        > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                        > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                        > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                        > > created.
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > >
                        > > JT
                        > >
                        > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > **
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                        > > >
                        > > > snark·y (snärk)
                        > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                        > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                        > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                        > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                        > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                        > > >
                        > > > Jen
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                        > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                        > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                        > > > class)
                        > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                        > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                        > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                        > > > > of such drugs.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                        > > > existed
                        > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                        > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                        > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Regards
                        > > > >
                        > > > > JT
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > **
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                        > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                        > > > -be
                        > > > > > taken to prison?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                        > > > else
                        > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                        > > > thought
                        > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                        > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >

                         

                         

                         


                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6151 - Release Date: 03/05/13

                      • Mahendra Singh
                        Thanks, Doug. For some reason, this illustration is always softly vanishing away on my laptop. —Mahendra ... MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D &
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 7 4:55 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks, Doug. For some reason, this illustration is always softly vanishing away on my laptop.
                          —Mahendra

                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                          • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                          The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                          Illustration Samples
                          Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                          follow me on Twitter  
                          follow me on Tumblr




                          To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                          From: doug@...
                          Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 22:34:46 +1100
                          Subject: RE: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                           

                          John, Mahendra,

                          See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm

                          Kind regards

                           

                          doug-colour.JPG

                           

                          From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Tufail
                          Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 12:36 PM
                          To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                           

                           

                          Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.

                           

                          Also, what could be possibly be the link? 

                           

                          jt

                          On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                           

                          look here … snark'd?

                          best


                          Mahendra

                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                          • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                          The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                          Illustration Samples
                          Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                          follow me on Twitter  
                          follow me on Tumblr



                          To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                          From: johntufail@...
                          Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                           

                           

                          Hi Mahendra,

                           

                          Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!

                           

                          Regards

                           

                          Jt

                           



                           

                          On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                           

                           

                          I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                          —Mahendra

                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                          • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                          The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                          Illustration Samples
                          Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                          follow me on Twitter  
                          follow me on Tumblr



                          To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                          From: jenifer@...
                          Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                           


                          Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                          > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                          >
                          > Off with its head!
                          >
                          > :-)
                          >
                          > Jen
                          >
                          > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Jen,
                          > >
                          > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                          > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                          > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                          > > created.
                          > >
                          > > Regards
                          > >
                          > > JT
                          > >
                          > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > **
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                          > > >
                          > > > snark·y (snärk)
                          > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                          > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                          > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                          > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                          > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                          > > >
                          > > > Jen
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                          > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                          > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                          > > > class)
                          > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                          > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                          > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                          > > > > of such drugs.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                          > > > existed
                          > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                          > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                          > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Regards
                          > > > >
                          > > > > JT
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > **
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                          > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                          > > > -be
                          > > > > > taken to prison?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                          > > > else
                          > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                          > > > thought
                          > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                          > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

                           

                           

                           


                          No virus found in this message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6151 - Release Date: 03/05/13


                        • Mahendra Singh
                          Hello, John I doubt if there s anything linking Snark to Maori … to my ears at least, there seems to be a rather nautical feeling to the word s use here.
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 7 5:03 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello, John

                            I doubt if there's anything linking Snark to Maori … to my ears at least, there seems to be a rather nautical feeling to the word's use here. Perhaps it was current amongst mariners at the time? Which might explain LC's "vessel was snarked" passage?

                            And this might even suggest that this quatrain had been simmering in LC's mind for quite some time, and perhaps furnished one of the essential "seeds" of the entire poem?

                            Pure speculation, I know. But artists' minds are rarely linear …
                            —Mahendra

                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                            • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                            The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                            Illustration Samples
                            Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                            follow me on Twitter  
                            follow me on Tumblr
                            • land 514.675.1205




                            To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                            From: johntufail@...
                            Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:35:50 +0000
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                             

                            Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.
                             
                            Also, what could be possibly be the link? 
                             
                            jt

                            On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                             

                            look here … snark'd?

                            best

                            Mahendra

                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                            • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                            The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                            Illustration Samples
                            Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                            follow me on Twitter  
                            follow me on Tumblr



                            To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                            From: johntufail@...
                            Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                             

                            Hi Mahendra,
                             
                            Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                             
                            Regards
                             
                            Jt
                             


                             
                            On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                             

                            I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                            —Mahendra

                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                            • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                            The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                            Illustration Samples
                            Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                            follow me on Twitter  
                            follow me on Tumblr



                            To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                            From: jenifer@...
                            Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                            Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                             

                            Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                            > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                            >
                            > Off with its head!
                            >
                            > :-)
                            >
                            > Jen
                            >
                            > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Jen,
                            > >
                            > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                            > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                            > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                            > > created.
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > >
                            > > JT
                            > >
                            > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > **
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                            > > >
                            > > > snark·y (snärk)
                            > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                            > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                            > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                            > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                            > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                            > > >
                            > > > Jen
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                            > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                            > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                            > > > class)
                            > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                            > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                            > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                            > > > > of such drugs.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                            > > > existed
                            > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                            > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                            > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Regards
                            > > > >
                            > > > > JT
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > **
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                            > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                            > > > -be
                            > > > > > taken to prison?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                            > > > else
                            > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                            > > > thought
                            > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                            > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >










                          • Deb
                            As an Antipodean myself I have always had a suspicion that the ill-fated Snark hunting expedition might have been based on some of the explorational voyages of
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 9 4:42 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              As an Antipodean myself I have always had a suspicion that the ill-fated Snark hunting expedition might have been based on some of the explorational voyages of those who sailed to the southern parts of the Pacific Ocean. Naturalists and explorers flocked to the shores of the Great South Land and an awful lot of them either got lost en route to these parts or while exploring the vast uncharted continent.

                              And Captain Cook's ship the Endeavour certainly did get snarked on the Great Barrier Reef while he was exploring the east coast of Australia.



                              --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Howick" <doug@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > John, Mahendra,
                              >
                              > See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm
                              >
                              > Kind regards
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > doug-colour.JPG
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Tufail
                              > Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 12:36 PM
                              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Actually what I wanted was the precise quote from Doug. You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture. In fact Kate published series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme. From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Also, what could be possibly be the link?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > jt
                              >
                              > On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > look here … snark'd?
                              >
                              > best
                              >
                              >
                              > Mahendra
                              >
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                              > • Editor of the Knight Letter, <http://www.lewiscarroll.org/publications/knightletter/> journal of the LCSNA <http://lcsna.org/>
                              > • The Hunting of the Snark Blog <http://justtheplaceforasnark.blogspot.com/>
                              > • Illustration Samples <http://picasaweb.google.com/mahendra373/IllustrationSamples>
                              > • Represented by Oliver Mielenz, <http://contactjupiter.com/artist/mahendra-singh> oliver@...
                              > • follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/#%21/mahendra_snark>
                              > • follow me on Tumblr <http://mahendra-singh.tumblr.com/>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: johntufail@...
                              > Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                              > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Mahendra,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Regards
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Jt
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!
                              >
                              > â€"Mahendra
                              >
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                              > • Editor of the Knight Letter, <http://www.lewiscarroll.org/publications/knightletter/> journal of the LCSNA <http://lcsna.org/>
                              > • The Hunting of the Snark Blog <http://justtheplaceforasnark.blogspot.com/>
                              > • Illustration Samples <http://picasaweb.google.com/mahendra373/IllustrationSamples>
                              > • Represented by Oliver Mielenz, <http://contactjupiter.com/artist/mahendra-singh> oliver@...
                              > • follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/#%21/mahendra_snark>
                              > • follow me on Tumblr <http://mahendra-singh.tumblr.com/>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: jenifer@...
                              > Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                              > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!
                              >
                              > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com> , "angeldance66" wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                              > > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                              > >
                              > > Off with its head!
                              > >
                              > > :-)
                              > >
                              > > Jen
                              > >
                              > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com> , John Tufail wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Jen,
                              > > >
                              > > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                              > > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                              > > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                              > > > created.
                              > > >
                              > > > Regards
                              > > >
                              > > > JT
                              > > >
                              > > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > **
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > snark·y (snärk)
                              > > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                              > > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                              > > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                              > > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                              > > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Jen
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com> , John Tufail wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                              > > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                              > > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                              > > > > class)
                              > > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                              > > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                              > > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                              > > > > > of such drugs.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                              > > > > existed
                              > > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                              > > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                              > > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Regards
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > JT
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > **
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                              > > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                              > > > > -be
                              > > > > > > taken to prison?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                              > > > > else
                              > > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                              > > > > thought
                              > > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                              > > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > No virus found in this message.
                              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6151 - Release Date: 03/05/13
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.