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Is a Snark a Nark?

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  • knaveofarts
    Could Snark be short for nark, or is nark? A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 24, 2013
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      Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'

      A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13

      Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.

      If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be taken to prison?

      Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?

      Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
    • Keith
      I thought LC said it was a cross between a Shark and something else! The work ‘nark’ (police informer) is certainly of that era but LC never used it in
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 24, 2013
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        I thought LC said it was a cross between a Shark and something else!
         
        The work ‘nark’ (police informer) is certainly of that era but LC never used it in it’s correct context to my knowledge!
         
        Opium was widely available as an over the counter medicine in the 1850’s and sold in laudanum as a pain killer. I see no reason why LC should not have used it just the same as anyone else at the time.  As laudanum nobody sensible would consider it as anything but a potentially dangerous medicine I’d guess.
         
        There’s no evidence of him taking any narcotics that I have seen.
         
        Regards,
         
        Keith
         
         
        Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:09 PM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Is a Snark a Nark?
         
         

        Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'

        A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13

        Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.

        If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be taken to prison?

        Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?

        Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.

      • Mahendra Singh
        Perhaps the Snark was itself the drug? Taken three times a day for 42 days will guarantee your arrival at the breakfast table by 5 o clock tea. ... MAHENDRA
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 24, 2013
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          Perhaps the Snark was itself the drug?
          Taken three times a day for 42 days will guarantee your arrival at the breakfast table by 5 o'clock tea.

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, AD & DESIGN
          • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
          The Hunting of the Snark Blog
          Illustration Samples
          Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
          •  follow me on Twitter  




          To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
          From: keith@...
          Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:33:26 +0000
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Is a Snark a Nark?

           

          I thought LC said it was a cross between a Shark and something else!
           
          The work ‘nark’ (police informer) is certainly of that era but LC never used it in it’s correct context to my knowledge!
           
          Opium was widely available as an over the counter medicine in the 1850’s and sold in laudanum as a pain killer. I see no reason why LC should not have used it just the same as anyone else at the time.  As laudanum nobody sensible would consider it as anything but a potentially dangerous medicine I’d guess.
           
          There’s no evidence of him taking any narcotics that I have seen.
           
          Regards,
           
          Keith
           
           
          Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:09 PM
          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Is a Snark a Nark?
           
           
          Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'

          A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13

          Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.

          If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be taken to prison?

          Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?

          Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.



        • John Tufail
          Hi Mahendra, First, so far as I can ascertain, the work nark only entered into the English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 24, 2013
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            Hi Mahendra,
             
            First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the English vernacular in the 20th century.  I am about 90% certain that Carroll would not have had access to the word.
             
            Second.  It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his class) that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs.  Laudunum (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
             
            Third.  In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession of such drugs.
             
            They were , in general, over the counter.
             
            In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even existed in Carroll's day.  Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter.  True, some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
             
            Regards
             
            JT
             


             
            On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts <knaveofarts@...> wrote:
             

            Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'

            A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13

            Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.

            If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be taken to prison?

            Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?

            Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.


          • Keith
            Charles Dodgson born 181 years ago on 27th January 1832. At Daresbury we will be having a little celebration in the new Lewis Carroll centre at 2.00 pm.
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 26, 2013
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              Charles Dodgson born 181 years ago on 27th January 1832.
               
              At Daresbury we will be having a little celebration in the new Lewis Carroll centre at 2.00 pm. Everyone is welcome.
               
              Regards,
               
              Keith Wright
              Editor Daresbury Chronicle
            • Keith W
              All, Llandudno are planning an ‘Alice’ day on 3rd May this year. Went well last year so anyone wanting a weekend break could do worse as it is the
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 2, 2013
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                All,
                 
                Llandudno are planning an ‘Alice’ day on 3rd May this year. Went well last year so anyone wanting a weekend break could do worse as it is the Victorian Extravaganza over that weekend also.
                 
                Keith W
              • angeldance66
                I wonder if the word snarky existed in Carroll s time? snark·y (snärk) adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 3, 2013
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                  I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?


                  snark·y (snärk)
                  adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                  1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                  2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                  [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]

                  Jen


                  --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Mahendra,
                  >
                  > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                  > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                  > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                  >
                  > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his class)
                  > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                  > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                  > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                  >
                  > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                  > of such drugs.
                  >
                  > They were , in general, over the counter.
                  >
                  > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even existed
                  > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                  > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                  > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > JT
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts <knaveofarts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                  > >
                  > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                  > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                  > >
                  > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                  > >
                  > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be
                  > > taken to prison?
                  > >
                  > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                  > >
                  > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else
                  > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought
                  > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                  > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • John Tufail
                  Hi Jen, i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 3, 2013
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                    Hi Jen,
                     
                    i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched.  However, the issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway.  It is hardly appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll created.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    JT

                    On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 <jenifer@...> wrote:
                     


                    I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?

                    snark·y (snärk)
                    adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                    1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                    2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                    [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]

                    Jen

                    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Mahendra,
                    >
                    > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                    > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                    > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                    >
                    > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his class)
                    > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                    > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                    > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                    >
                    > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                    > of such drugs.
                    >
                    > They were , in general, over the counter.
                    >
                    > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even existed
                    > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                    > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                    > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > JT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                    > >
                    > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                    > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                    > >
                    > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                    > >
                    > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away -be
                    > > taken to prison?
                    > >
                    > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                    > >
                    > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or else
                    > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My thought
                    > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                    > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >


                  • angeldance66
                    Hmmm John, rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable, irascible ...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts. Off
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 3, 2013
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                      Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                      irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.

                      Off with its head!

                      :-)

                      Jen

                      --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Jen,
                      >
                      > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                      > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                      > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                      > created.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > JT
                      >
                      > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 <jenifer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                      > >
                      > > snark·y (snärk)
                      > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                      > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                      > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                      > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                      > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                      > >
                      > > Jen
                      > >
                      > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Mahendra,
                      > > >
                      > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                      > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                      > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                      > > >
                      > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                      > > class)
                      > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                      > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                      > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                      > > >
                      > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                      > > > of such drugs.
                      > > >
                      > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                      > > >
                      > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                      > > existed
                      > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                      > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                      > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards
                      > > >
                      > > > JT
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > **
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                      > > > >
                      > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                      > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                      > > -be
                      > > > > taken to prison?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                      > > else
                      > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                      > > thought
                      > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                      > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • angeldance66
                      Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 3, 2013
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                        Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" <jenifer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                        > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                        >
                        > Off with its head!
                        >
                        > :-)
                        >
                        > Jen
                        >
                        > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Jen,
                        > >
                        > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                        > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                        > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                        > > created.
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > >
                        > > JT
                        > >
                        > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 <jenifer@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > **
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                        > > >
                        > > > snark·y (snärk)
                        > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                        > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                        > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                        > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                        > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                        > > >
                        > > > Jen
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                        > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                        > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                        > > > class)
                        > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                        > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                        > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                        > > > > of such drugs.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                        > > > existed
                        > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                        > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                        > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Regards
                        > > > >
                        > > > > JT
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > **
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                        > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                        > > > -be
                        > > > > > taken to prison?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                        > > > else
                        > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                        > > > thought
                        > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                        > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Mahendra Singh
                        I m too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word snark d
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 6, 2013
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                          I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                          —Mahendra

                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                          • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                          The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                          Illustration Samples
                          Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                          follow me on Twitter  
                          follow me on Tumblr



                          To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                          From: jenifer@...
                          Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                           

                          Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                          > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                          >
                          > Off with its head!
                          >
                          > :-)
                          >
                          > Jen
                          >
                          > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Jen,
                          > >
                          > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                          > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                          > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                          > > created.
                          > >
                          > > Regards
                          > >
                          > > JT
                          > >
                          > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > **
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                          > > >
                          > > > snark·y (snärk)
                          > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                          > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                          > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                          > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                          > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                          > > >
                          > > > Jen
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                          > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                          > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                          > > > class)
                          > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                          > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                          > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                          > > > > of such drugs.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                          > > > existed
                          > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                          > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                          > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Regards
                          > > > >
                          > > > > JT
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > **
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                          > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                          > > > -be
                          > > > > > taken to prison?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                          > > > else
                          > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                          > > > thought
                          > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                          > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >


                        • John Tufail
                          Hi Mahendra, Please clarify conclusively and cite! Regards Jt ... Hi Mahendra,   Please clarify conclusively and cite!   Regards   Jt     On Wed, Mar
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 6, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Mahendra,
                             
                            Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                             
                            Regards
                             
                            Jt
                             


                             
                            On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                             

                            I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                            —Mahendra

                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                            • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                            The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                            Illustration Samples
                            Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                            follow me on Twitter  
                            follow me on Tumblr



                            To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                            From: jenifer@...
                            Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                            Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                             

                            Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                            > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                            >
                            > Off with its head!
                            >
                            > :-)
                            >
                            > Jen
                            >
                            > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Jen,
                            > >
                            > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                            > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                            > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                            > > created.
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > >
                            > > JT
                            > >
                            > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > **
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                            > > >
                            > > > snark·y (snärk)
                            > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                            > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                            > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                            > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                            > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                            > > >
                            > > > Jen
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                            > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                            > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                            > > > class)
                            > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                            > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                            > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                            > > > > of such drugs.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                            > > > existed
                            > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                            > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                            > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Regards
                            > > > >
                            > > > > JT
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > **
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                            > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                            > > > -be
                            > > > > > taken to prison?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                            > > > else
                            > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                            > > > thought
                            > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                            > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >



                          • Mahendra Singh
                            look here … snark d? best Mahendra ... MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA • The
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 6, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              look here … snark'd?

                              best
                              Mahendra

                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                              • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                              The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                              Illustration Samples
                              Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                              follow me on Twitter  
                              follow me on Tumblr



                              To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              From: johntufail@...
                              Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                               

                              Hi Mahendra,
                               
                              Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                               
                              Regards
                               
                              Jt
                               


                               
                              On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                               

                              I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                              —Mahendra

                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                              • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                              The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                              Illustration Samples
                              Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                              follow me on Twitter  
                              follow me on Tumblr



                              To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              From: jenifer@...
                              Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                              Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                               

                              Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                              --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                              > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                              >
                              > Off with its head!
                              >
                              > :-)
                              >
                              > Jen
                              >
                              > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Jen,
                              > >
                              > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                              > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                              > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                              > > created.
                              > >
                              > > Regards
                              > >
                              > > JT
                              > >
                              > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > **
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                              > > >
                              > > > snark·y (snärk)
                              > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                              > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                              > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                              > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                              > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                              > > >
                              > > > Jen
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                              > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                              > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                              > > > class)
                              > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                              > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                              > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                              > > > > of such drugs.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                              > > > existed
                              > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                              > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                              > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Regards
                              > > > >
                              > > > > JT
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > **
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                              > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                              > > > -be
                              > > > > > taken to prison?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                              > > > else
                              > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                              > > > thought
                              > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                              > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >






                            • John Tufail
                              Actually what I wanted was the precise quote from Doug. You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 6, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.
                                 
                                Also, what could be possibly be the link? 
                                 
                                jt

                                On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                                 

                                look here … snark'd?

                                best

                                Mahendra

                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                Illustration Samples
                                Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                follow me on Twitter  
                                follow me on Tumblr



                                To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                From: johntufail@...
                                Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                                 

                                Hi Mahendra,
                                 
                                Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                                 
                                Regards
                                 
                                Jt
                                 


                                 
                                On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                                 

                                I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                                —Mahendra

                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                Illustration Samples
                                Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                follow me on Twitter  
                                follow me on Tumblr



                                To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                From: jenifer@...
                                Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                                Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                                 

                                Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                                --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                                > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                                >
                                > Off with its head!
                                >
                                > :-)
                                >
                                > Jen
                                >
                                > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Jen,
                                > >
                                > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                                > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                                > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                                > > created.
                                > >
                                > > Regards
                                > >
                                > > JT
                                > >
                                > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > **
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                                > > >
                                > > > snark·y (snärk)
                                > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                                > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                                > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                                > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                                > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                                > > >
                                > > > Jen
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                                > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                                > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                                > > > class)
                                > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                                > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                                > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                                > > > > of such drugs.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                                > > > existed
                                > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                                > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                                > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Regards
                                > > > >
                                > > > > JT
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > **
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                                > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                                > > > -be
                                > > > > > taken to prison?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                                > > > else
                                > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                                > > > thought
                                > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                                > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >







                              • Doug Howick
                                John, Mahendra, See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm Kind regards doug-colour.JPG From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 7, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  John, Mahendra,

                                  See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm

                                  Kind regards

                                   

                                  doug-colour.JPG

                                   

                                  From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Tufail
                                  Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 12:36 PM
                                  To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                                   

                                   

                                  Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.

                                   

                                  Also, what could be possibly be the link? 

                                   

                                  jt

                                  On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  look here … snark'd?

                                  best


                                  Mahendra

                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                  • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                  The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                  Illustration Samples
                                  Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                  follow me on Twitter  
                                  follow me on Tumblr



                                  To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: johntufail@...
                                  Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                                   

                                   

                                  Hi Mahendra,

                                   

                                  Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!

                                   

                                  Regards

                                   

                                  Jt

                                   



                                   

                                  On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                                   

                                   

                                  I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                                  —Mahendra

                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                  • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                  The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                  Illustration Samples
                                  Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                  follow me on Twitter  
                                  follow me on Tumblr



                                  To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: jenifer@...
                                  Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                                  Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                                   


                                  Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                                  --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                                  > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                                  >
                                  > Off with its head!
                                  >
                                  > :-)
                                  >
                                  > Jen
                                  >
                                  > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Jen,
                                  > >
                                  > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                                  > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                                  > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                                  > > created.
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards
                                  > >
                                  > > JT
                                  > >
                                  > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > **
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > snark·y (snärk)
                                  > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                                  > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                                  > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                                  > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                                  > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jen
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                                  > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                                  > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                                  > > > class)
                                  > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                                  > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                                  > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                                  > > > > of such drugs.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                                  > > > existed
                                  > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                                  > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                                  > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Regards
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > JT
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > **
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                                  > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                                  > > > -be
                                  > > > > > taken to prison?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                                  > > > else
                                  > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                                  > > > thought
                                  > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                                  > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >

                                   

                                   

                                   


                                  No virus found in this message.
                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6151 - Release Date: 03/05/13

                                • Mahendra Singh
                                  Thanks, Doug. For some reason, this illustration is always softly vanishing away on my laptop. —Mahendra ... MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D &
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 7, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks, Doug. For some reason, this illustration is always softly vanishing away on my laptop.
                                    —Mahendra

                                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                    • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                    The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                    Illustration Samples
                                    Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                    follow me on Twitter  
                                    follow me on Tumblr




                                    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: doug@...
                                    Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 22:34:46 +1100
                                    Subject: RE: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                                     

                                    John, Mahendra,

                                    See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm

                                    Kind regards

                                     

                                    doug-colour.JPG

                                     

                                    From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Tufail
                                    Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 12:36 PM
                                    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                                     

                                     

                                    Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.

                                     

                                    Also, what could be possibly be the link? 

                                     

                                    jt

                                    On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    look here … snark'd?

                                    best


                                    Mahendra

                                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                    • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                    The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                    Illustration Samples
                                    Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                    follow me on Twitter  
                                    follow me on Tumblr



                                    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: johntufail@...
                                    Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                                     

                                     

                                    Hi Mahendra,

                                     

                                    Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!

                                     

                                    Regards

                                     

                                    Jt

                                     



                                     

                                    On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:

                                     

                                     

                                    I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                                    —Mahendra

                                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                    • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                    The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                    Illustration Samples
                                    Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                    follow me on Twitter  
                                    follow me on Tumblr



                                    To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: jenifer@...
                                    Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                                    Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q



                                     


                                    Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                                    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                                    > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                                    >
                                    > Off with its head!
                                    >
                                    > :-)
                                    >
                                    > Jen
                                    >
                                    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Jen,
                                    > >
                                    > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                                    > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                                    > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                                    > > created.
                                    > >
                                    > > Regards
                                    > >
                                    > > JT
                                    > >
                                    > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > **
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > snark·y (snärk)
                                    > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                                    > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                                    > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                                    > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                                    > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Jen
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                                    > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                                    > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                                    > > > class)
                                    > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                                    > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                                    > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                                    > > > > of such drugs.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                                    > > > existed
                                    > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                                    > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                                    > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Regards
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > JT
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > **
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                                    > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                                    > > > -be
                                    > > > > > taken to prison?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                                    > > > else
                                    > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                                    > > > thought
                                    > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                                    > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >

                                     

                                     

                                     


                                    No virus found in this message.
                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6151 - Release Date: 03/05/13


                                  • Mahendra Singh
                                    Hello, John I doubt if there s anything linking Snark to Maori … to my ears at least, there seems to be a rather nautical feeling to the word s use here.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 7, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello, John

                                      I doubt if there's anything linking Snark to Maori … to my ears at least, there seems to be a rather nautical feeling to the word's use here. Perhaps it was current amongst mariners at the time? Which might explain LC's "vessel was snarked" passage?

                                      And this might even suggest that this quatrain had been simmering in LC's mind for quite some time, and perhaps furnished one of the essential "seeds" of the entire poem?

                                      Pure speculation, I know. But artists' minds are rarely linear …
                                      —Mahendra

                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                      • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                      The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                      Illustration Samples
                                      Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                      follow me on Twitter  
                                      follow me on Tumblr
                                      • land 514.675.1205




                                      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: johntufail@...
                                      Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:35:50 +0000
                                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q

                                       

                                      Actually what I wanted was  the precise quote from Doug.  You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture.  In fact Kate published  series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme.  From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.
                                       
                                      Also, what could be possibly be the link? 
                                       
                                      jt

                                      On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      look here … snark'd?

                                      best

                                      Mahendra

                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                      • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                      The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                      Illustration Samples
                                      Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                      follow me on Twitter  
                                      follow me on Tumblr



                                      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: johntufail@...
                                      Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                                       

                                      Hi Mahendra,
                                       
                                      Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                                       
                                      Regards
                                       
                                      Jt
                                       


                                       
                                      On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!

                                      —Mahendra

                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                      • Editor of the Knight Letter, journal of the LCSNA
                                      The Hunting of the Snark Blog
                                      Illustration Samples
                                      Represented by Oliver Mielenz, oliver@...
                                      follow me on Twitter  
                                      follow me on Tumblr



                                      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: jenifer@...
                                      Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q


                                       

                                      Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!

                                      --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "angeldance66" wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                                      > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                                      >
                                      > Off with its head!
                                      >
                                      > :-)
                                      >
                                      > Jen
                                      >
                                      > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Jen,
                                      > >
                                      > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                                      > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                                      > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                                      > > created.
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards
                                      > >
                                      > > JT
                                      > >
                                      > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > **
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > snark·y (snärk)
                                      > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                                      > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                                      > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                                      > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                                      > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Jen
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                                      > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                                      > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                                      > > > class)
                                      > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                                      > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                                      > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                                      > > > > of such drugs.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                                      > > > existed
                                      > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                                      > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                                      > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Regards
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > JT
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > **
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                                      > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                                      > > > -be
                                      > > > > > taken to prison?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                                      > > > else
                                      > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                                      > > > thought
                                      > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                                      > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >










                                    • Deb
                                      As an Antipodean myself I have always had a suspicion that the ill-fated Snark hunting expedition might have been based on some of the explorational voyages of
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Mar 9, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        As an Antipodean myself I have always had a suspicion that the ill-fated Snark hunting expedition might have been based on some of the explorational voyages of those who sailed to the southern parts of the Pacific Ocean. Naturalists and explorers flocked to the shores of the Great South Land and an awful lot of them either got lost en route to these parts or while exploring the vast uncharted continent.

                                        And Captain Cook's ship the Endeavour certainly did get snarked on the Great Barrier Reef while he was exploring the east coast of Australia.



                                        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Howick" <doug@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > John, Mahendra,
                                        >
                                        > See Also: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/banks/endeav/image_15.cfm
                                        >
                                        > Kind regards
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > doug-colour.JPG
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Tufail
                                        > Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 12:36 PM
                                        > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Actually what I wanted was the precise quote from Doug. You may not be aware that I spent a number of years in New Zealand and that Kate Lyon had huge knowledge of Maori culture. In fact Kate published series of books using Maori myth and culture as a theme. From my recollection there is NOTHING that triggered Kate to link Maori Culture with the Snark.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Also, what could be possibly be the link?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > jt
                                        >
                                        > On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > look here … snark'd?
                                        >
                                        > best
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Mahendra
                                        >
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                        > • Editor of the Knight Letter, <http://www.lewiscarroll.org/publications/knightletter/> journal of the LCSNA <http://lcsna.org/>
                                        > • The Hunting of the Snark Blog <http://justtheplaceforasnark.blogspot.com/>
                                        > • Illustration Samples <http://picasaweb.google.com/mahendra373/IllustrationSamples>
                                        > • Represented by Oliver Mielenz, <http://contactjupiter.com/artist/mahendra-singh> oliver@...
                                        > • follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/#%21/mahendra_snark>
                                        > • follow me on Tumblr <http://mahendra-singh.tumblr.com/>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                        > From: johntufail@...
                                        > Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:51:42 +0000
                                        > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Mahendra,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Please clarify 'conclusively' and cite!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Jt
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Mahendra Singh <mahendra373@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I'm too pressed for time to google properly but the eminent antipodean Snarkologist, Doug Howick, has conclusively demonstrated the use of the word "snark'd" as far back as the 1700s. A citation is somewhere on my Snark blog, it's used to describe a Maori tattoo!
                                        >
                                        > â€"Mahendra
                                        >
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > MAHENDRA SINGH: FREELANCE ILLUSTRATION, A/D & DESIGN
                                        > • Editor of the Knight Letter, <http://www.lewiscarroll.org/publications/knightletter/> journal of the LCSNA <http://lcsna.org/>
                                        > • The Hunting of the Snark Blog <http://justtheplaceforasnark.blogspot.com/>
                                        > • Illustration Samples <http://picasaweb.google.com/mahendra373/IllustrationSamples>
                                        > • Represented by Oliver Mielenz, <http://contactjupiter.com/artist/mahendra-singh> oliver@...
                                        > • follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/#%21/mahendra_snark>
                                        > • follow me on Tumblr <http://mahendra-singh.tumblr.com/>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                        > From: jenifer@...
                                        > Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:51:31 +0000
                                        > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Q
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hmm, no idea how the subject line got changed...must be the doing of the Snark!
                                        >
                                        > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com> , "angeldance66" wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hmmm John, "rudely sarcastic or disrespectfully snide, irritable,
                                        > > irascible"...sounds pretty formidable to me, on a par with the heartless Queen of Hearts.
                                        > >
                                        > > Off with its head!
                                        > >
                                        > > :-)
                                        > >
                                        > > Jen
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com> , John Tufail wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hi Jen,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > i have no evidence of it and both I and others have searched. However, the
                                        > > > issue is, would Carroll have used this derivative anyway. It is hardly
                                        > > > appropriate to the formidable (though elusive) creation that Carroll
                                        > > > created.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Regards
                                        > > >
                                        > > > JT
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, angeldance66 wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > **
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I wonder if the word "snarky" existed in Carroll's time?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > snark·y (snärk)
                                        > > > > adj. snark·i·er, snark·i·est Slang
                                        > > > > 1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
                                        > > > > 2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
                                        > > > > [From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from
                                        > > > > Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Jen
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com> , John Tufail wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Hi Mahendra,
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > First, so far as I can ascertain, the work 'nark' only entered into the
                                        > > > > > English vernacular in the 20th century. I am about 90% certain that
                                        > > > > > Carroll would not have had access to the word.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Second. It is highly likely (like a great majority of people of his
                                        > > > > class)
                                        > > > > > that carroll would have been familiar with opiate-based drugs. Laudunum
                                        > > > > > (or other similar concoctions), after all was prescibed liberally as a
                                        > > > > > panacea for many conditions that caused pain or other physical trauma.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Third. In Carroll's world, no one was ever taken to prison for possession
                                        > > > > > of such drugs.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > They were , in general, over the counter.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > In fact I am fairly sure that the concept of 'prescribe' drugs even
                                        > > > > existed
                                        > > > > > in Carroll's day. Even Arsenic could be bought over the counter. True,
                                        > > > > > some form of drug registration and recording did exist in the second half
                                        > > > > > of the 19th century - but not, so far as i am aware formal prscription.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Regards
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > JT
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, knaveofarts wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > **
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Could Snark be short for 'nark, or 'is nark?'
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > A narcotic induces mental lethargy 2.16 or profound sleep 2.17, but in
                                        > > > > > > poisonous doses produces stupor, coma, or convulsions. 3.13
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Nark n. Romany. a spy employed by the police; an informer.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > If the Snark is a Boojum - and it was - you will suddenly vanish away
                                        > > > > -be
                                        > > > > > > taken to prison?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Hence, was the Snark an undercover narcotics policeman?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Of course, that begs the question - was possession of narcotics, or
                                        > > > > else
                                        > > > > > > of some type of narcotics, a criminal offense in Carroll's time? My
                                        > > > > thought
                                        > > > > > > is, probably not. And, then, the other question - did Carroll take any
                                        > > > > > > narcotics? My guess is, probably, on occasion, just as an experiment.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
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                                        > _____
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