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Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"

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  • Guy Barry
    From: Michael Everson ... (Also Dinah the cat.) The Jubjub and Bandersnatch from “Jabberwocky” turn up in “The Hunting of the Snark” (as well as
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 30, 2012
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      From: Michael Everson
       
      >I think it's clearly the same universe because the March Hare and
      Hatter from the first book appear again as Haigha and Hatta in the second.
       
      (Also Dinah the cat.)
       
      The Jubjub and Bandersnatch from “Jabberwocky” turn up in “The Hunting of the Snark” (as well as several of the nonsense words).  Does that make the Snark part of the same universe as well?
       
      --
      Guy Barry
    • Michael Everson
      ... Dinah comes from Alice s universe, though. ... Why not? (The Bandersnatch turns up in Anna Richards A New Alice in the Old Wonderland .) Michael Everson
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 30, 2012
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        On 30 Dec 2012, at 18:32, Guy Barry <guy.barry@...> wrote:

        > From: Michael Everson
        >> I think it's clearly the same universe because the March Hare and Hatter from the first book appear again as Haigha and Hatta in the second.
        >
        > (Also Dinah the cat.)

        Dinah comes from Alice's universe, though.

        > The Jubjub and Bandersnatch from “Jabberwocky” turn up in “The Hunting of the Snark” (as well as several of the nonsense words). Does that make the Snark part of the same universe as well?

        Why not? (The Bandersnatch turns up in Anna Richards' "A New Alice in the Old Wonderland".)

        Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
      • Keith
        Guy, why not read ‘Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found there’ and you’ll see the poem which starts ‘A Boat beneath a sunny sky’ the six
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 30, 2012
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          Guy,
           
          why not read ‘Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found there’ and you’ll see the poem which starts ‘A Boat beneath a sunny sky’ the six verse starts ‘In a Wonderland they lie.’  It doesn’t say ‘chess land’ or ‘looking glass land’ so it appears fairly conclusive that if Alice was in Wonderland in the book then any character in the second book was thought to be in Wonderland by the author!
           
          Regards,
           
          Keith
           
           
           
          From: Guy Barry
          Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 6:32 PM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
           
           

          From: Michael Everson
           
          >I think it's clearly the same universe because the March Hare and
          Hatter from the first book appear again as Haigha and Hatta in the second.
           
          (Also Dinah the cat.)
           
          The Jubjub and Bandersnatch from “Jabberwocky” turn up in “The Hunting of the Snark” (as well as several of the nonsense words).  Does that make the Snark part of the same universe as well?
           
          --
          Guy Barry
        • Guy Barry
          ... That’s a good point which I hadn’t thought of, although you can argue that the poem is referring to the telling of the original story rather than the
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 31, 2012
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            Keith wrote:
            >
            >why not read ‘Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found there’ and
            you’ll see the poem which starts ‘A Boat beneath a sunny sky’ the six verse starts ‘In a Wonderland they lie.’  It doesn’t say ‘chess land’ or ‘looking glass land’ so it appears fairly conclusive that if Alice was in Wonderland in the book then any character in the second book was thought to be in Wonderland by the author!
             
            That’s a good point which I hadn’t thought of, although you can argue that the poem is referring to the telling of the original story rather than the sequel.
             
            I’m puzzled that you think that I might not have read “Through the Looking Glass”, though.  I’d be very surprised if anyone here hadn’t done so.  The acrostic poem at the end is very well known.
             
            --
            Guy Barry
          • Keith
            Guy, you could argue that but then why print it in the second book? It isn’t a case of my not thinking you had not read the second book – it’s more a
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 31, 2012
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              Guy,
               
              you could argue that but then why print it in the second book? It isn’t a case of my not thinking you had not read the second book – it’s more a case of folk not consciously realising what they have read. Both books are full of meanings that are not immediately apparent.
               
              Also, Wonderland only existed in Alice’s mind, it was a dream place, so there’s no reason why she could not go a second time and find it altered!
               
              Regards,
               
              Keith
               
               
               
              From: Guy Barry
              Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 9:21 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
               
               

              Keith wrote:
              >
              >why not read ‘Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found there’ and
              you’ll see the poem which starts ‘A Boat beneath a sunny sky’ the six verse starts ‘In a Wonderland they lie.’  It doesn’t say ‘chess land’ or ‘looking glass land’ so it appears fairly conclusive that if Alice was in Wonderland in the book then any character in the second book was thought to be in Wonderland by the author!
               
              That’s a good point which I hadn’t thought of, although you can argue that the poem is referring to the telling of the original story rather than the sequel.
               
              I’m puzzled that you think that I might not have read “Through the Looking Glass”, though.  I’d be very surprised if anyone here hadn’t done so.  The acrostic poem at the end is very well known.
               
              --
              Guy Barry
            • Guy Barry
              From: Keith ... Because the concluding poem was about the contrast between the happy memories of that boat-trip and his own experiences at the time: “Long
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 31, 2012
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                From: Keith
                 
                >Guy,
                >
                >you could argue that but then why print it in the second book? It isn’t
                a case of my not thinking you had not read the second book – it’s more a case of folk not consciously realising what they have read. Both books are full of meanings that are not immediately apparent.
                 
                Because the concluding poem was about the contrast between the happy memories of that boat-trip and his own experiences at the time:
                 
                “Long has paled that sunny sky:
                Echoes fade and memories die:
                Autumn frosts have slain July.”
                 
                There’s a similar contrast in the book’s introductory poem, which is far less often quoted:
                 
                ”And though the shadow of a sigh
                May tremble through the story,
                For 'happy summer days' gone by,
                And vanish'd summer glory -
                It shall not touch with breath of bale
                The pleasance of our fairy-tale.”
                 
                As Martin Gardner pointed out, “happy summer days” are the last three words of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.
                 
                --
                Guy Barry
              • Keith
                Guy, or you can read it simply as the fact that Alice was six months older in the second book and hence it was autumn. The first book being set in May and the
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 31, 2012
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                  Guy,
                   
                  or you can read it simply as the fact that Alice was six months older in the second book and hence it was autumn. The first book being set in May and the second therefore in November.
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Keith
                   
                  From: Guy Barry
                  Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:15 PM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                   
                   

                  From: Keith
                   
                  >Guy,
                  >
                  >you could argue that but then why print it in the second book? It isn’t
                  a case of my not thinking you had not read the second book – it’s more a case of folk not consciously realising what they have read. Both books are full of meanings that are not immediately apparent.
                   
                  Because the concluding poem was about the contrast between the happy memories of that boat-trip and his own experiences at the time:
                   
                  “Long has paled that sunny sky:
                  Echoes fade and memories die:
                  Autumn frosts have slain July.”
                   
                  There’s a similar contrast in the book’s introductory poem, which is far less often quoted:
                   
                  ”And though the shadow of a sigh
                  May tremble through the story,
                  For 'happy summer days' gone by,
                  And vanish'd summer glory -
                  It shall not touch with breath of bale
                  The pleasance of our fairy-tale.”
                   
                  As Martin Gardner pointed out, “happy summer days” are the last three words of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.
                   
                  --
                  Guy Barry
                • Guy Barry
                  From: Keith ... So why does the poem talk about “July” (when the boat trip took place) and not “May” (when the story was set)? -- Guy Barry From: Keith
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 31, 2012
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                    From: Keith
                    >Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:32 PM
                    >To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                    >
                    >
                    >Guy,
                    >
                    >or you can read it simply as the fact that Alice was six months older
                    in the second book and hence it was autumn. The first book being set in May and the second therefore in November.
                     
                    So why does the poem talk about “July” (when the boat trip took place) and not “May” (when the story was set)?
                     
                    --
                    Guy Barry
                  • Keith
                    Guy, because the story was told to the sisters in July 1862 when Alice was ten years old. But in the first published story Alice is seven if you work back from
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 31, 2012
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                      Guy,
                       
                      because the story was told to the sisters in July 1862 when Alice was ten years old. But in the first published story Alice is seven if you work back from what Humpty Dumpty says in the second book when he askes her how old she is and she replies ‘Seven years and six months.’ This puts the second story at November 1859. The first book indicates that the date of that story is the 4th of May. It could be any 4th of May of course but people have assumed it was meant to be 4th May 1859 which was when Alice was seven.
                       
                      Regards,
                       
                      Keith
                       
                       
                       
                      From: Guy Barry
                      Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                       
                       

                      From: Keith
                      >Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:32 PM
                      >To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                      >
                      >
                      >Guy,
                      >
                      >or you can read it simply as the fact that Alice was six months older
                      in the second book and hence it was autumn. The first book being set in May and the second therefore in November.
                       
                      So why does the poem talk about “July” (when the boat trip took place) and not “May” (when the story was set)?
                       
                      --
                      Guy Barry
                    • Deb
                      Well I am going to be even more technical and say that Humpty Dumpty is neither a Wonderland nor a Looking-glass character. Humpty is a nursery rhyme character
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 2, 2013
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                        Well I am going to be even more technical and say that Humpty Dumpty is neither a Wonderland nor a Looking-glass character. Humpty is a nursery rhyme character that pre-existed both worlds. Both Wonderland and Looking-glass worlds are populated by familiar nursery characters and some of Carroll's own invention.

                        As a child I imagined Wonderland and Looking-glass were at least neighbouring kingdoms in the same world. Where the Snark lives is of course, the unexplored antipodean new world of the same realm. It's just the same with other imagined worlds Hobbiton is in the same Middle Earth as Gondor; the land of Oz also has different parts. And in my imagination, at least there is a connection between all imagined worlds: Wondeeland, Oz, Middle Earth, Narnia.

                        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "lilongjr@..." <lilongjr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have to jump in here. Humpty was NOT a character in "Alice in Wonderland"
                        > (and, yes, I know that's not the actual title), but of "Through the
                        > Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There" (which IS the actual title of that
                        > book <G>; I'm nothing if not inconsistent). HOWEVER, many people who have
                        > only seen one or more of the films and/or television versions of the stories
                        > will think of him as a Wonderland character, as he seems to be in everyone's
                        > version of the first book. In fact, most of the filmed versions of the book
                        > contain characters from both books. So whether one believes Humpty (and
                        > several others) to be a Wonderland character may simply be a measure of
                        > their exposure to modern media and/or literary classics.
                        >
                        > Luke Owens
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -------Original Message-------
                        >
                        > From: Michael Everson
                        > Date: 2012-12-30 07:35:10
                        > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                        >
                        > On 30 Dec 2012, at 14:33, Guy <guy.barry@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > A contributor to another group has claimed that the term "Alice in
                        > Wonderland" is sometimes used to refer collectively to the two Alice books.
                        > Is this true?
                        >
                        > Not by anyone who knows what they are talking about.
                        >
                        > > As far as I'm concerned it refers only to the first one. Or is it all
                        > right to say that (e.g.) "Humpty Dumpty is an Alice in Wonderland character
                        > ?
                        >
                        > No. But one may say "Humpty Dumpty is a Wonderland character"
                        >
                        > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                      • lilongjr@yahoo.com
                        The Wood Between the Worlds, perhaps? Though I d prefer Callahan s Place, myself. Luke ... From: Deb Date: 2013-01-02 14:24:51 To:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 3, 2013
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                          The Wood Between the Worlds, perhaps? Though I'd prefer Callahan's Place, myself. <G>
                           
                          Luke 
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          -------Original Message-------
                           
                          From: Deb
                          Date: 2013-01-02 14:24:51
                          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                           
                          Well I am going to be even more technical and say that Humpty Dumpty is neither a Wonderland nor a Looking-glass character. Humpty is a nursery rhyme character that pre-existed both worlds. Both Wonderland and Looking-glass worlds are populated by familiar nursery characters and some of Carroll's own invention.
                           
                          As a child I imagined Wonderland and Looking-glass were at least neighbouring kingdoms in the same world. Where the Snark lives is of course, the unexplored antipodean new world of the same realm. It's just the same with other imagined worlds Hobbiton is in the same Middle Earth as Gondor; the land of Oz also has different parts. And in my imagination, at least there is a connection between all imagined worlds: Wondeeland, Oz, Middle Earth, Narnia.
                           
                          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "lilongjr@..." <lilongjr@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have to jump in here. Humpty was NOT a character in "Alice in Wonderland"
                          > (and, yes, I know that's not the actual title), but of "Through the
                          > Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There" (which IS the actual title of that
                          > book <G>; I'm nothing if not inconsistent). HOWEVER, many people who have
                          > only seen one or more of the films and/or television versions of the stories
                          > will think of him as a Wonderland character, as he seems to be in everyone's
                          > version of the first book. In fact, most of the filmed versions of the book
                          > contain characters from both books. So whether one believes Humpty (and
                          > several others) to be a Wonderland character may simply be a measure of
                          > their exposure to modern media and/or literary classics.
                          >
                          > Luke Owens
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -------Original Message-------
                          >
                          > From: Michael Everson
                          > Date: 2012-12-30 07:35:10
                          > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                          >
                          > On 30 Dec 2012, at 14:33, Guy <guy.barry@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > A contributor to another group has claimed that the term "Alice in
                          > Wonderland" is sometimes used to refer collectively to the two Alice books.
                          > Is this true?
                          >
                          > Not by anyone who knows what they are talking about.
                          >
                          > > As far as I'm concerned it refers only to the first one.  Or is it all
                          > right to say that (e.g.) "Humpty Dumpty is an Alice in Wonderland character
                          > ?
                          >
                          > No. But one may say "Humpty Dumpty is a Wonderland character"
                          >
                          > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                           
                           
                           
                           
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                        • John Tufail
                          Isn t this a rather silly debate? First, to say that Humpty dumpty is neither a Wonderland not a Looking Glass character rather misses rthe point. It was the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 3, 2013
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                            Isn't this a rather silly debate?
                             
                            First, to say that Humpty dumpty 'is neither a Wonderland not a Looking Glass' character rather misses rthe point. It was the genious of Lewis Carroll that he actually CREATED characters (in both the 'Alice' books from previously wooden nursery rhyme figures.  Carroll gave character to everyone from Humpty Dumpty to the March Hare, From the Knave of Hearts  to the Gryphon.  And he did it with superb humour.
                             
                            Secondly,
                             
                            Although purists may hate it,  Film makers from Disney to Burton, I believe, have actually paid Carroll a compliment by subsuming the two Alice books.  They have acknowledged that the format of cinema is too limited in time to attempt to portray the complexity of Carroll's idea of 'Nonsense' by being 'true' to either 'Wonderland' or 'Looking Glass'.   I admit I am a 'purist' and cringe sometimes about the conflation  of the two books.  But the fact is that film makers work within their own limitations.  On the whole. I believe, even the Disney version has not done a bad job.
                             
                            Regards
                             
                            JT

                            On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Deb <haddoxeyes@...> wrote:
                             

                            Well I am going to be even more technical and say that Humpty Dumpty is neither a Wonderland nor a Looking-glass character. Humpty is a nursery rhyme character that pre-existed both worlds. Both Wonderland and Looking-glass worlds are populated by familiar nursery characters and some of Carroll's own invention.

                            As a child I imagined Wonderland and Looking-glass were at least neighbouring kingdoms in the same world. Where the Snark lives is of course, the unexplored antipodean new world of the same realm. It's just the same with other imagined worlds Hobbiton is in the same Middle Earth as Gondor; the land of Oz also has different parts. And in my imagination, at least there is a connection between all imagined worlds: Wondeeland, Oz, Middle Earth, Narnia.

                            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "lilongjr@..." <lilongjr@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I have to jump in here. Humpty was NOT a character in "Alice in Wonderland"
                            > (and, yes, I know that's not the actual title), but of "Through the
                            > Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There" (which IS the actual title of that
                            > book <G>; I'm nothing if not inconsistent). HOWEVER, many people who have
                            > only seen one or more of the films and/or television versions of the stories
                            > will think of him as a Wonderland character, as he seems to be in everyone's
                            > version of the first book. In fact, most of the filmed versions of the book
                            > contain characters from both books. So whether one believes Humpty (and
                            > several others) to be a Wonderland character may simply be a measure of
                            > their exposure to modern media and/or literary classics.
                            >
                            > Luke Owens
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -------Original Message-------
                            >
                            > From: Michael Everson
                            > Date: 2012-12-30 07:35:10
                            > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Use of the term "Alice in Wonderland"
                            >
                            > On 30 Dec 2012, at 14:33, Guy <guy.barry@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > A contributor to another group has claimed that the term "Alice in
                            > Wonderland" is sometimes used to refer collectively to the two Alice books.
                            > Is this true?
                            >
                            > Not by anyone who knows what they are talking about.
                            >
                            > > As far as I'm concerned it refers only to the first one. Or is it all
                            > right to say that (e.g.) "Humpty Dumpty is an Alice in Wonderland character
                            > ?
                            >
                            > No. But one may say "Humpty Dumpty is a Wonderland character"
                            >
                            > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >


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