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Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition

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  • Keith
    John, the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
      John,
       
      the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
       
      I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
       
      Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
       
      Keith W
       
       
       
      Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
       
       

      Hi Keith,
       
      Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
       
      GO! Go!
       
      Fond regards
       
      John

      On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
      Hi Keith,
       
      There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
       
      I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
       
      Regards
       
      John.
       


       
      On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
       

      John,
       
      let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
       
      I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
       
      Regards,
       
      Keith W
       
       
       
      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
       
       

      Hi Keith
       
      ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
       
      I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
       
      Regards
       
      JT

      On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
       

      Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
      I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
       
      I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
       
      I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
       
       
      Regards,
       
      Keith W.

       

    • John Tufail
      Hi Keith, You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll s philosophy and theology, so it s a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
        Hi Keith,
         
        You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
         
        Thought you knew this.
         
        I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
         
        I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
         
        The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
         
        Fond regards
         
        JT
         
        ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
         
         
        Regards.

        On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
         

        John,
         
        the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
         
        I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
         
        Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
         
        Keith W
         
         
         
        Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
         
         

        Hi Keith,
         
        Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
         
        GO! Go!
         
        Fond regards
         
        John

        On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
        Hi Keith,
         
        There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
         
        I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
         
        Regards
         
        John.
         


         
        On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
         

        John,
         
        let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
         
        I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
         
        Regards,
         
        Keith W
         
         
         
        Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
         
         

        Hi Keith
         
        ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
         
        I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
         
        Regards
         
        JT

        On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
         

        Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
        I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
         
        I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
         
        I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
         
         
        Regards,
         
        Keith W.


         


      • John Tufail
        Hi K ... Hi K On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Keith wrote:   John,   the second version of the Scapegoat picture is in
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
          Hi K

          On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
           

          John,
           
          the second version of the Scapegoat picture is in the Manchester Art Gallery and is smaller and darker than the Lever version.
           
          The Manchester Gallery did a Holman Hunt exhibition not too long ago and they had both versions on show as they did with ‘The Light of the World’ which has more than two versions. Any they could not ship to Manchester were shown in prints with explanations of how and why they were painted. Something the Tate could learn to do perhaps!
           
          Regards,
           
          Keith W
           
           
           
           
           
          Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
           
           

          Hi Keith,
           
          Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
           
          GO! Go!
           
          Fond regards
           
          John

          On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
          Hi Keith,
           
          There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
           
          I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
           
          Regards
           
          John.
           


           
          On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
           

          John,
           
          let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
           
          I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
           
          Regards,
           
          Keith W
           
           
           
          Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
           
           

          Hi Keith
           
          ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
           
          I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
           
          Regards
           
          JT

          On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
           

          Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
          I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
           
          I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
           
          I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
           
           
          Regards,
           
          Keith W.


           


        • Keith
          John, I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
            John,
             
            I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
             
            The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
             
            On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
             
            Best wishes,
             
            Keith
             
             
            Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
             
             

            Hi Keith,
             
            You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
             
            Thought you knew this.
             
            I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
             
            I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
             
            The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
             
            Fond regards
             
            JT
             
            ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
             
             
            Regards.

            On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
             

            John,
             
            the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
             
            I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
             
            Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
             
            Keith W
             
             
             
            Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
             
             

            Hi Keith,
             
            Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
             
            GO! Go!
             
            Fond regards
             
            John

            On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
            Hi Keith,
             
            There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
             
            I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
             
            Regards
             
            John.
             


             
            On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
             

            John,
             
            let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
             
            I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
             
            Regards,
             
            Keith W
             
             
             
            Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
             
             

            Hi Keith
             
            ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
             
            I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
             
            Regards
             
            JT

            On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
             

            Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
            I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
             
            I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
             
            I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
             
             
            Regards,
             
            Keith W.

             


          • John Tufail
            Hi Keith, I m astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll s philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 20, 2012
              Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
               
              You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
               
              The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
               
               


               
              On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
               

              John,
               
              I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
               
              The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
               
              On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
               
              Best wishes,
               
              Keith
               
               
              Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
               
               

              Hi Keith,
               
              You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
               
              Thought you knew this.
               
              I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
               
              I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
               
              The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
               
              Fond regards
               
              JT
               
              ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
               
               
              Regards.

              On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
               

              John,
               
              the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
               
              I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
               
              Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
               
              Keith W
               
               
               
              Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
               
               

              Hi Keith,
               
              Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
               
              GO! Go!
               
              Fond regards
               
              John

              On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
              Hi Keith,
               
              There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
               
              I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
               
              Regards
               
              John.
               


               
              On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
               

              John,
               
              let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
               
              I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
               
              Regards,
               
              Keith W
               
               
               
              Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
               
               

              Hi Keith
               
              ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
               
              I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
               
              Regards
               
              JT

              On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
               

              Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
              I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
               
              I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
               
              I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
               
               
              Regards,
               
              Keith W.


               



            • Keith
              John, if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though. I am not on
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 21, 2012
                John,
                 
                if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                 
                I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                 
                The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                 
                Best wishes,
                 
                Keith
                 
                Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                 
                 

                Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                 
                You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                 
                The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                 
                 


                 
                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                 

                John,
                 
                I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                 
                The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                 
                On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                 
                Best wishes,
                 
                Keith
                 
                 
                Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                 
                 

                Hi Keith,
                 
                You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                 
                Thought you knew this.
                 
                I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                 
                I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                 
                The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                 
                Fond regards
                 
                JT
                 
                ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                 
                 
                Regards.

                On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                 

                John,
                 
                the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                 
                I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                 
                Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                 
                Keith W
                 
                 
                 
                Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                 
                 

                Hi Keith,
                 
                Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                 
                GO! Go!
                 
                Fond regards
                 
                John

                On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                Hi Keith,
                 
                There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                 
                I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                 
                Regards
                 
                John.
                 


                 
                On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                 

                John,
                 
                let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                 
                I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                 
                Regards,
                 
                Keith W
                 
                 
                 
                Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                 
                 

                Hi Keith
                 
                ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                 
                I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                 
                Regards
                 
                JT

                On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                 

                Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                 
                I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                 
                I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                 
                 
                Regards,
                 
                Keith W.

                 



              • John Tufail
                Hi Keith, I think you were banned because of a certain person s protectiveness of his imorata, Very annoying! I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 21, 2012
                  Hi Keith,
                   
                  I think you were banned because of a certain person's protectiveness of his imorata,  Very annoying!  I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i have never known you to lack in integrity.
                   
                  It's a pity you have lost the stuff Kate said she sent you.  Some of it was of  significance especially regarding Carroll's relationship with the Pre-Raphaelites and George MacDonald.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  JT

                  On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                   

                  John,
                   
                  if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                   
                  I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                   
                  The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                   
                  Best wishes,
                   
                  Keith
                   
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                   
                   

                  Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                   
                  You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                   
                  The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                   
                   


                   
                  On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                   

                  John,
                   
                  I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                   
                  The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                   
                  On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                   
                  Best wishes,
                   
                  Keith
                   
                   
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                   
                   

                  Hi Keith,
                   
                  You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                   
                  Thought you knew this.
                   
                  I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                   
                  I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                   
                  The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                   
                  Fond regards
                   
                  JT
                   
                  ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                   
                   
                  Regards.

                  On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                   

                  John,
                   
                  the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                   
                  I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                   
                  Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                   
                  Keith W
                   
                   
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                   
                   

                  Hi Keith,
                   
                  Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                   
                  GO! Go!
                   
                  Fond regards
                   
                  John

                  On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                  Hi Keith,
                   
                  There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                   
                  I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  John.
                   


                   
                  On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                   

                  John,
                   
                  let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                   
                  I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Keith W
                   
                   
                   
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                   
                   

                  Hi Keith
                   
                  ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                   
                  I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  JT

                  On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                   

                  Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                  I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                   
                  I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                   
                  I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                   
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Keith W.


                   




                • Keith
                  John, yes, I suppose if you count asking for proof of things people stated as being abrasive then you are right. I did indeed think a site dedicated to
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 21, 2012
                    John,
                     
                    yes, I suppose if you count asking for proof of things people stated as being abrasive then you are right. I did indeed think a site dedicated to research into LC would be open to discussions! I’m not into worshipping at anyone’s feet either because of their qualifications or their reputation. Unlike some though I have never had to apologise for rudeness or for making derogatory statements about other contributors! All I wanted was proof of what they were asserting about LC and I even qualified that by saying ‘not legal proof’ but common sense proof!
                     
                    I may not have lost your stuff on LC I rarely lose stuff I just don’t know where it is! I often printed out things Kate sent me so it could be in one of half a dozen boxes of articles. What was the correct title of the article you had in mind?
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Keith W
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 3:38 AM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                     
                     

                    Hi Keith,
                     
                    I think you were banned because of a certain person's protectiveness of his imorata,  Very annoying!  I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i have never known you to lack in integrity.
                     
                    It's a pity you have lost the stuff Kate said she sent you.  Some of it was of  significance especially regarding Carroll's relationship with the Pre-Raphaelites and George MacDonald.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    JT

                    On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                     

                    John,
                     
                    if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                     
                    I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                     
                    The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                     
                    Best wishes,
                     
                    Keith
                     
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                     
                     

                    Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                     
                    You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                     
                    The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                     
                     


                     
                    On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                     

                    John,
                     
                    I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                     
                    The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                     
                    On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                     
                    Best wishes,
                     
                    Keith
                     
                     
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                     
                     

                    Hi Keith,
                     
                    You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                     
                    Thought you knew this.
                     
                    I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                     
                    I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                     
                    The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                     
                    Fond regards
                     
                    JT
                     
                    ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                     
                     
                    Regards.

                    On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                     

                    John,
                     
                    the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                     
                    I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                     
                    Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                     
                    Keith W
                     
                     
                     
                    Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                     
                     

                    Hi Keith,
                     
                    Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                     
                    GO! Go!
                     
                    Fond regards
                     
                    John

                    On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                    Hi Keith,
                     
                    There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                     
                    I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    John.
                     


                     
                    On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                     

                    John,
                     
                    let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                     
                    I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Keith W
                     
                     
                     
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                     
                     

                    Hi Keith
                     
                    ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                     
                    I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    JT

                    On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                     

                    Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                    I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                     
                    I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                     
                    I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                     
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Keith W.

                     




                  • John Tufail
                    ... You are quite right. The certain person I referred to was quite sure that you were in the opposition party whoever they were. He actually did more
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 22, 2012
                      On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                      Hi Keith,
                       
                      You are quite right.  The certain person' I referred to was quite sure that you were in the 'opposition party' whoever they were.  He actually did more harm to Karoline and her reputation than anyone else. 
                       
                      Regarding the second question is that the answer is, I don't know precisely.  I only know that Kate assured me that she sent you all the work I produced whilst I was in New Zealand together with all my work on Carroll's philosophy and theology.
                       
                      As i said, you could start by looking at the articles that are published on the 'Contrariwise' site', all of which you should have received.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      JT
                       
                       

                    • John Tufail
                      PS! I know the feeling! I also rarely lose stuff - just misplace it. Sometimes fatally. I suspect that I am worse than you. ... PS!   I know the feeling!  
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 22, 2012
                        PS!
                         
                        I know the feeling!
                         
                        I also rarely lose stuff - just misplace it.  Sometimes fatally.  I suspect that I am worse than you.

                        On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        John,
                         
                        yes, I suppose if you count asking for proof of things people stated as being abrasive then you are right. I did indeed think a site dedicated to research into LC would be open to discussions! I’m not into worshipping at anyone’s feet either because of their qualifications or their reputation. Unlike some though I have never had to apologise for rudeness or for making derogatory statements about other contributors! All I wanted was proof of what they were asserting about LC and I even qualified that by saying ‘not legal proof’ but common sense proof!
                         
                        I may not have lost your stuff on LC I rarely lose stuff I just don’t know where it is! I often printed out things Kate sent me so it could be in one of half a dozen boxes of articles. What was the correct title of the article you had in mind?
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Keith W
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 3:38 AM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                         
                         

                        Hi Keith,
                         
                        I think you were banned because of a certain person's protectiveness of his imorata,  Very annoying!  I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i have never known you to lack in integrity.
                         
                        It's a pity you have lost the stuff Kate said she sent you.  Some of it was of  significance especially regarding Carroll's relationship with the Pre-Raphaelites and George MacDonald.
                         
                        Regards
                         
                        JT

                        On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        John,
                         
                        if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                         
                        I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                         
                        The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                         
                        Best wishes,
                         
                        Keith
                         
                        Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                         
                         

                        Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                         
                        You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                         
                        The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                         
                         


                         
                        On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        John,
                         
                        I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                         
                        The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                         
                        On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                         
                        Best wishes,
                         
                        Keith
                         
                         
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                         
                         

                        Hi Keith,
                         
                        You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                         
                        Thought you knew this.
                         
                        I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                         
                        I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                         
                        The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                         
                        Fond regards
                         
                        JT
                         
                        ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                         
                         
                        Regards.

                        On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        John,
                         
                        the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                         
                        I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                         
                        Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                         
                        Keith W
                         
                         
                         
                        Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                         
                         

                        Hi Keith,
                         
                        Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                         
                        GO! Go!
                         
                        Fond regards
                         
                        John

                        On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                        Hi Keith,
                         
                        There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                         
                        I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                         
                        Regards
                         
                        John.
                         


                         
                        On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        John,
                         
                        let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                         
                        I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Keith W
                         
                         
                         
                        Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                         
                         

                        Hi Keith
                         
                        ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                         
                        I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                         
                        Regards
                         
                        JT

                        On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                        I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                         
                        I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                         
                        I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                         
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Keith W.


                         





                      • Keith
                        John, seeing Machiavellian plots is the sign of delusion! I’m in nobody’s party I and never have been. I simply require folk to have a reasonable set of
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 22, 2012
                          John,
                           
                          seeing Machiavellian plots is the sign of delusion! I’m in nobody’s party I and never have been. I simply require folk to have a reasonable set of proofs for things they assert. I’d not join any group that does not permit intellectual freedom – that’s why I won’t be looking at contrariwise!
                           
                          Have you made it to the Tate yet? I’d be interested in how they put the exhibition together and if it told a coherent story. The criticism at Tate modern was not that the exhibits were not interesting, as they were, but that the story was not presented to the layman in a fashion that he/she could understand. Questions such as ‘What has Charles Dodgson to do with Lewis Carroll?’ were heard along with ‘Why is that camera here?’ and ‘Who is that picture of and why is it here?’ (It was actually Agnes Weld but it didn't say so and the staff didn’t know either.) It’s fine for the Guardian critic Jonathan Jones to say ‘ By far the best exhibition of Pre-Raphaelite art I have seen’ but I’d rather hear from someone who didn’t have a background in the subject and who came away enlightened! At Tate modern many people came away puzzled and/or disgruntled and quite a few commented that they regretted having to pay for entry!
                           
                          Regards,
                           
                          Keith
                           
                           
                           
                          Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 12:44 AM
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                           
                           



                          On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                          Hi Keith,
                           
                          You are quite right.  The certain person' I referred to was quite sure that you were in the 'opposition party' whoever they were.  He actually did more harm to Karoline and her reputation than anyone else.
                           
                          Regarding the second question is that the answer is, I don't know precisely.  I only know that Kate assured me that she sent you all the work I produced whilst I was in New Zealand together with all my work on Carroll's philosophy and theology.
                           
                          As i said, you could start by looking at the articles that are published on the 'Contrariwise' site', all of which you should have received.
                           
                          Regards
                           
                          JT
                           
                           

                        • oldjoesoap
                          I guess that mounting and presenting an exhibition like this is a creative task and one which exposes the curators to criticism from professional critics, and
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 23, 2012
                            I guess that mounting and presenting an exhibition like this is a creative task and one which exposes the curators to criticism from professional critics, and from people who don't share the curators' particular viewpoint.
                            The works in the exhibition are selected carefully and have been divided between eight categories (origins, religion, aesthetics, nature etc.) and then hung in their divisions in roughly chronological order. More attention than usual is given to the pre-Raphaelite as polymath - so the exhibition contains some books of poetry and other writing, as well as examples of applied arts - furniture, tapestry and stained glass. Each work is accompanied by a short written explanation and the £25 catalogue goes into much more detail. The three curators (one British, two American) have chosen to present the pre-Raphaelites as a "Victorian Avant-Garde" which - given the reactionary and backward-looking nature of the movement - may puzzle some people. The curators justify their position with essays in the catalogue. I suspect that most people visiting the exhibition will be primarily interested in the paintings for their own sake, but explanations of the symbolism used in the paintings are provided for those who are interested. There is a bookshop at the entrance to the exhibition with a huge selection of books for sale on the pre-Raphaelite movement. The danger of trying to present a coherent story that can be easily understood by the layman, is that there is then a temptation to simplify, pigeonhole and mythologise. Although at the formation of the Brotherhood in 1848, the members were able to find common ground, this did not remain for long. They all managed to remain friends of a sort but their story, with its divisions and factions, is complex and not easily and quickly told or understood.
                            j

                            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > John,
                            >
                            > seeing Machiavellian plots is the sign of delusion! I’m in nobody’s party I and never have been. I simply require folk to have a reasonable set of proofs for things they assert. I’d not join any group that does not permit intellectual freedom â€" that’s why I won’t be looking at contrariwise!
                            >
                            > Have you made it to the Tate yet? I’d be interested in how they put the exhibition together and if it told a coherent story. The criticism at Tate modern was not that the exhibits were not interesting, as they were, but that the story was not presented to the layman in a fashion that he/she could understand. Questions such as ‘What has Charles Dodgson to do with Lewis Carroll?’ were heard along with ‘Why is that camera here?’ and ‘Who is that picture of and why is it here?’ (It was actually Agnes Weld but it didn't say so and the staff didn’t know either.) It’s fine for the Guardian critic Jonathan Jones to say ‘ By far the best exhibition of Pre-Raphaelite art I have seen’ but I’d rather hear from someone who didn’t have a background in the subject and who came away enlightened! At Tate modern many people came away puzzled and/or disgruntled and quite a few commented that they regretted having to pay for entry!
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            >
                            > Keith
                            >
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