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Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition

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  • Keith
    John, let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 14, 2012
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      John,
       
      let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
       
      I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
       
      Regards,
       
      Keith W
       
       
       
      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
       
       

      Hi Keith
       
      ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
       
      I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
       
      Regards
       
      JT

      On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
       

      Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
      I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
       
      I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
       
      I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
       
       
      Regards,
       
      Keith W.

    • oldjoesoap
      I visited the exhibition last week and thought it superb. Although smaller in scale than the last pre-Raphaelite exhibition which the Tate mounted in 1984, it
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 14, 2012
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        I visited the exhibition last week and thought it superb. Although smaller in scale than the last pre-Raphaelite exhibition which the Tate mounted in 1984, it is more successful, much more concentrated - fewer 'minor' paintings, and broader in scale. Whereas the 1984 exhibition featured only paintings and drawings, the current one has applied arts (furniture, photographs and books), a total of 175 works including work where several of the artists have collaborated, showing how closely these artists worked together, supporting and inspiring each other - and Ruskin standing in the wings, the godfather urging them on. Almost every iconic pre-Raphaelite painting is here. All the paintings you know best! Millais's 'Ophelia' and 'Isabella', Holman Hunt's 'Light of the world' and 'Awakening Conscience', Rossetti's 'Beata Beatrix', paintings (and stained glass) by Burne-Jones etc. etc.! Wonderful paintings!
        The exhibition is in London until January and will then travel to Russia, USA and Japan.
        Never mind what you think of the Tate, you will never get another opportunity to see these works together again. You really should try to see it!
        Although CLD gets no direct reference, the exhibition must surely be of great interest to Carrollians because these are works that he knew well and admired greatly, by artists who formed an important part of his social circle. He knew most of the paintings in the exhibition, calling Holman Hunt's 'The Finding of the Saviour in the Temple' - "The most wonderful picture I ever saw" and Rossetti's 'Found' - "One of the most marvellous things I have seen done in painting". Of particular interest (as John Tufail notes) is Ford Madox Brown's 'Work' which CLD saw and admired in 1865, a painting influenced by Christian Socialism, which features portraits of Thomas Carlyle and F.D. Maurice standing to one side in the shadows, and workmen placed centre stage in the sunlight.
        Also forming part of the exhibition are photographs by Julia Margaret Cameron who he knew in the Isle of Wight - but whose work he did not admire - and poetry by Christina Rossetti - which he did!
        And yes, the Lady Lever Gallery's wonderful version of 'The Scapegoat' which I first saw (and was knocked out by) in 1966 is here. The stunning thing about these paintings is that, in real life, they are so much, much more than any of the reproductions, however good, ever suggest
        j


        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Keith
        >
        > ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going. I have seen a preview (that
        > didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points). This is
        > aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern) The two should be very
        > clearly separated! I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern
        > team. Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat' Was
        > one of the 'absent ' paintings? If this is a serious examination of
        > Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
        >
        > I think you should make the effort to see this. Even from the slightly
        > unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on
        > display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people
        > well within Carroll's compass.
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > JT
        >
        > On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...>wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
        > > I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’
        > > studios.
        > >
        > > I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few
        > > of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
        > >
        > > I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis
        > > Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a
        > > shambles â€" very disappointing.
        > >
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Keith W.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Keith
        Joe, we are fortunate up here to have seen most of the pictures you mentioned in exhibitions in Manchester over the last few years. I’m not as certain as you
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 14, 2012
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          Joe,
           
          we are fortunate up here to have seen most of the pictures you mentioned in exhibitions in Manchester over the last few years.
           
          I’m not as certain as you that he didn’t admire Julia Margaret Cameron’s photos – I thought he liked her choice of subjects but not the way she presented them.
           
          I didn’t notice that ‘The Scapegoat’ was missing from the Lever which is odd as I walked past where it normally hangs! I don’t share your enthusiasm for it as the symbolism there is perhaps more important than the subject itself.
           
          Regards,
           
          Keith W
           
          Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:44 PM
          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
           
           

          I visited the exhibition last week and thought it superb. Although smaller in scale than the last pre-Raphaelite exhibition which the Tate mounted in 1984, it is more successful, much more concentrated - fewer 'minor' paintings, and broader in scale. Whereas the 1984 exhibition featured only paintings and drawings, the current one has applied arts (furniture, photographs and books), a total of 175 works including work where several of the artists have collaborated, showing how closely these artists worked together, supporting and inspiring each other - and Ruskin standing in the wings, the godfather urging them on. Almost every iconic pre-Raphaelite painting is here. All the paintings you know best! Millais's 'Ophelia' and 'Isabella', Holman Hunt's 'Light of the world' and 'Awakening Conscience', Rossetti's 'Beata Beatrix', paintings (and stained glass) by Burne-Jones etc. etc.! Wonderful paintings!
          The exhibition is in London until January and will then travel to Russia, USA and Japan.
          Never mind what you think of the Tate, you will never get another opportunity to see these works together again. You really should try to see it!
          Although CLD gets no direct reference, the exhibition must surely be of great interest to Carrollians because these are works that he knew well and admired greatly, by artists who formed an important part of his social circle. He knew most of the paintings in the exhibition, calling Holman Hunt's 'The Finding of the Saviour in the Temple' - "The most wonderful picture I ever saw" and Rossetti's 'Found' - "One of the most marvellous things I have seen done in painting". Of particular interest (as John Tufail notes) is Ford Madox Brown's 'Work' which CLD saw and admired in 1865, a painting influenced by Christian Socialism, which features portraits of Thomas Carlyle and F.D. Maurice standing to one side in the shadows, and workmen placed centre stage in the sunlight.
          Also forming part of the exhibition are photographs by Julia Margaret Cameron who he knew in the Isle of Wight - but whose work he did not admire - and poetry by Christina Rossetti - which he did!
          And yes, the Lady Lever Gallery's wonderful version of 'The Scapegoat' which I first saw (and was knocked out by) in 1966 is here. The stunning thing about these paintings is that, in real life, they are so much, much more than any of the reproductions, however good, ever suggest
          j

          --- In mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:

          >
          > Hi Keith
          >
          > ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going. I have seen a preview
          (that
          > didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).
          This is
          > aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern) The two should be
          very
          > clearly separated! I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate
          modern
          > team. Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape
          Goat' Was
          > one of the 'absent ' paintings? If this is a serious
          examination of
          > Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
          >
          >
          I think you should make the effort to see this. Even from the slightly
          >
          unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on
          > display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of
          people
          > well within Carroll's compass.
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > JT
          >
          > On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith
          <keith@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
          > > I
          assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’
          > > studios.
          > >
          > > I was at the Lever
          gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few
          > > of their
          paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
          > >
          > >
          I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis
          > > Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was
          a
          > > shambles â€" very disappointing.
          > >
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Keith W.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >

        • oldjoesoap
          I based my comment on CLD s diary entry for June 23 1864 where he says Went to the Photographic Exhibition, which was very scanty and poor. I did not admire
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 14, 2012
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            I based my comment on CLD's diary entry for June 23 1864 where he says "Went to the Photographic Exhibition, which was very scanty and poor. I did not admire Mrs Cameron's large heads taken out of focus....". (Julia Cameron is noted for her near life-size portraits in extreme close up employing variable focus and shallow depth of field).
            To be fair, a later diary entry (July 28th 1864) says "Mrs Cameron....showed me her pictures, some very beautiful." - so you may be right!
            j

            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
            >
            > Joe,
            >
            > we are fortunate up here to have seen most of the pictures you mentioned in exhibitions in Manchester over the last few years.
            >
            > I’m not as certain as you that he didn’t admire Julia Margaret Cameron’s photos â€" I thought he liked her choice of subjects but not the way she presented them.
            >
            > I didn’t notice that ‘The Scapegoat’ was missing from the Lever which is odd as I walked past where it normally hangs! I don’t share your enthusiasm for it as the symbolism there is perhaps more important than the subject itself.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Keith W
            >
            > From: oldjoesoap
            > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:44 PM
            > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
            >
            >
            > I visited the exhibition last week and thought it superb. Although smaller in scale than the last pre-Raphaelite exhibition which the Tate mounted in 1984, it is more successful, much more concentrated - fewer 'minor' paintings, and broader in scale. Whereas the 1984 exhibition featured only paintings and drawings, the current one has applied arts (furniture, photographs and books), a total of 175 works including work where several of the artists have collaborated, showing how closely these artists worked together, supporting and inspiring each other - and Ruskin standing in the wings, the godfather urging them on. Almost every iconic pre-Raphaelite painting is here. All the paintings you know best! Millais's 'Ophelia' and 'Isabella', Holman Hunt's 'Light of the world' and 'Awakening Conscience', Rossetti's 'Beata Beatrix', paintings (and stained glass) by Burne-Jones etc. etc.! Wonderful paintings!
            > The exhibition is in London until January and will then travel to Russia, USA and Japan.
            > Never mind what you think of the Tate, you will never get another opportunity to see these works together again. You really should try to see it!
            > Although CLD gets no direct reference, the exhibition must surely be of great interest to Carrollians because these are works that he knew well and admired greatly, by artists who formed an important part of his social circle. He knew most of the paintings in the exhibition, calling Holman Hunt's 'The Finding of the Saviour in the Temple' - "The most wonderful picture I ever saw" and Rossetti's 'Found' - "One of the most marvellous things I have seen done in painting". Of particular interest (as John Tufail notes) is Ford Madox Brown's 'Work' which CLD saw and admired in 1865, a painting influenced by Christian Socialism, which features portraits of Thomas Carlyle and F.D. Maurice standing to one side in the shadows, and workmen placed centre stage in the sunlight.
            > Also forming part of the exhibition are photographs by Julia Margaret Cameron who he knew in the Isle of Wight - but whose work he did not admire - and poetry by Christina Rossetti - which he did!
            > And yes, the Lady Lever Gallery's wonderful version of 'The Scapegoat' which I first saw (and was knocked out by) in 1966 is here. The stunning thing about these paintings is that, in real life, they are so much, much more than any of the reproductions, however good, ever suggest
            > j
            >
            > --- In mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com, John Tufail <johntufail@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Keith
            > >
            > > ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going. I have seen a preview (that
            > > didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points). This is
            > > aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern) The two should be very
            > > clearly separated! I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern
            > > team. Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat' Was
            > > one of the 'absent ' paintings? If this is a serious examination of
            > > Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
            > >
            > > I think you should make the effort to see this. Even from the slightly
            > > unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on
            > > display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people
            > > well within Carroll's compass.
            > >
            > > Regards
            > >
            > > JT
            > >
            > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@>wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
            > > > I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’
            > > > studios.
            > > >
            > > > I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few
            > > > of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
            > > >
            > > > I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis
            > > > Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a
            > > > shambles â€" very disappointing.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Regards,
            > > >
            > > > Keith W.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • John Tufail
            Hi Keith, There is only one Scapegoat to me! That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery. I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 14, 2012
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              Hi Keith,
               
              There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery. 
               
              I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
               
              Regards
               
              John.
               


               
              On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
               

              John,
               
              let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
               
              I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
               
              Regards,
               
              Keith W
               
               
               
              Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
               
               

              Hi Keith
               
              ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
               
              I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
               
              Regards
               
              JT

              On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
               

              Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
              I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
               
              I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
               
              I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
               
               
              Regards,
               
              Keith W.



            • John Tufail
              Hi Keith, Joe Soap has visited it. I am impressed by his analysis. He is cerain that the Lever Scapegoat is in ter exhibition. I believe him, anyone who
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 14, 2012
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                Hi Keith,
                 
                Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                 
                GO! Go!
                 
                Fond regards
                 
                John

                On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                Hi Keith,
                 
                There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery. 
                 
                I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                 
                Regards
                 
                John.
                 


                 
                On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                 

                John,
                 
                let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                 
                I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                 
                Regards,
                 
                Keith W
                 
                 
                 
                Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                 
                 

                Hi Keith
                 
                ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                 
                I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                 
                Regards
                 
                JT

                On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                 

                Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                 
                I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                 
                I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                 
                 
                Regards,
                 
                Keith W.




              • Keith
                John, the second version of the Scapegoat picture is in the Manchester Art Gallery and is smaller and darker than the Lever version. The Manchester Gallery did
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 14, 2012
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                  John,
                   
                  the second version of the Scapegoat picture is in the Manchester Art Gallery and is smaller and darker than the Lever version.
                   
                  The Manchester Gallery did a Holman Hunt exhibition not too long ago and they had both versions on show as they did with ‘The Light of the World’ which has more than two versions. Any they could not ship to Manchester were shown in prints with explanations of how and why they were painted. Something the Tate could learn to do perhaps!
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Keith W
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                   
                   

                  Hi Keith,
                   
                  Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                   
                  GO! Go!
                   
                  Fond regards
                   
                  John

                  On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                  Hi Keith,
                   
                  There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                   
                  I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  John.
                   


                   
                  On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                   

                  John,
                   
                  let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                   
                  I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Keith W
                   
                   
                   
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                   
                   

                  Hi Keith
                   
                  ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                   
                  I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  JT

                  On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                   

                  Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                  I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                   
                  I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                   
                  I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                   
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Keith W.

                   

                • Keith
                  John, the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
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                    John,
                     
                    the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                     
                    I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                     
                    Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                     
                    Keith W
                     
                     
                     
                    Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                     
                     

                    Hi Keith,
                     
                    Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                     
                    GO! Go!
                     
                    Fond regards
                     
                    John

                    On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                    Hi Keith,
                     
                    There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                     
                    I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    John.
                     


                     
                    On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                     

                    John,
                     
                    let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                     
                    I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Keith W
                     
                     
                     
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                     
                     

                    Hi Keith
                     
                    ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                     
                    I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    JT

                    On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                     

                    Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                    I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                     
                    I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                     
                    I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                     
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Keith W.

                     

                  • John Tufail
                    Hi Keith, You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll s philosophy and theology, so it s a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Keith,
                       
                      You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                       
                      Thought you knew this.
                       
                      I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                       
                      I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                       
                      The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                       
                      Fond regards
                       
                      JT
                       
                      ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                       
                       
                      Regards.

                      On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                       

                      John,
                       
                      the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                       
                      I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                       
                      Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                       
                      Keith W
                       
                       
                       
                      Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                       
                       

                      Hi Keith,
                       
                      Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                       
                      GO! Go!
                       
                      Fond regards
                       
                      John

                      On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                      Hi Keith,
                       
                      There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                       
                      I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      John.
                       


                       
                      On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                       

                      John,
                       
                      let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                       
                      I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                       
                      Regards,
                       
                      Keith W
                       
                       
                       
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                       
                       

                      Hi Keith
                       
                      ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                       
                      I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      JT

                      On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                       

                      Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                      I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                       
                      I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                       
                      I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                       
                       
                      Regards,
                       
                      Keith W.


                       


                    • John Tufail
                      Hi K ... Hi K On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Keith wrote:   John,   the second version of the Scapegoat picture is in
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi K

                        On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        John,
                         
                        the second version of the Scapegoat picture is in the Manchester Art Gallery and is smaller and darker than the Lever version.
                         
                        The Manchester Gallery did a Holman Hunt exhibition not too long ago and they had both versions on show as they did with ‘The Light of the World’ which has more than two versions. Any they could not ship to Manchester were shown in prints with explanations of how and why they were painted. Something the Tate could learn to do perhaps!
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Keith W
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                         
                         

                        Hi Keith,
                         
                        Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                         
                        GO! Go!
                         
                        Fond regards
                         
                        John

                        On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                        Hi Keith,
                         
                        There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                         
                        I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                         
                        Regards
                         
                        John.
                         


                         
                        On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        John,
                         
                        let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                         
                        I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Keith W
                         
                         
                         
                        Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                         
                         

                        Hi Keith
                         
                        ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                         
                        I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                         
                        Regards
                         
                        JT

                        On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                         

                        Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                        I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                         
                        I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                         
                        I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                         
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Keith W.


                         


                      • Keith
                        John, I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 19, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          John,
                           
                          I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                           
                          The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                           
                          On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                           
                          Best wishes,
                           
                          Keith
                           
                           
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                           
                           

                          Hi Keith,
                           
                          You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                           
                          Thought you knew this.
                           
                          I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                           
                          I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                           
                          The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                           
                          Fond regards
                           
                          JT
                           
                          ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                           
                           
                          Regards.

                          On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                           

                          John,
                           
                          the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                           
                          I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                           
                          Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                           
                          Keith W
                           
                           
                           
                          Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                           
                           

                          Hi Keith,
                           
                          Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                           
                          GO! Go!
                           
                          Fond regards
                           
                          John

                          On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                          Hi Keith,
                           
                          There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                           
                          I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                           
                          Regards
                           
                          John.
                           


                           
                          On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                           

                          John,
                           
                          let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                           
                          I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                           
                          Regards,
                           
                          Keith W
                           
                           
                           
                          Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                           
                           

                          Hi Keith
                           
                          ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                           
                          I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                           
                          Regards
                           
                          JT

                          On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                           

                          Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                          I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                           
                          I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                           
                          I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                           
                           
                          Regards,
                           
                          Keith W.

                           


                        • John Tufail
                          Hi Keith, I m astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll s philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 20, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                             
                            You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                             
                            The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                             
                             


                             
                            On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                             

                            John,
                             
                            I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                             
                            The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                             
                            On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                             
                            Best wishes,
                             
                            Keith
                             
                             
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                             
                             

                            Hi Keith,
                             
                            You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                             
                            Thought you knew this.
                             
                            I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                             
                            I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                             
                            The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                             
                            Fond regards
                             
                            JT
                             
                            ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                             
                             
                            Regards.

                            On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                             

                            John,
                             
                            the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                             
                            I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                             
                            Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                             
                            Keith W
                             
                             
                             
                            Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                             
                             

                            Hi Keith,
                             
                            Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                             
                            GO! Go!
                             
                            Fond regards
                             
                            John

                            On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                            Hi Keith,
                             
                            There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                             
                            I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                             
                            Regards
                             
                            John.
                             


                             
                            On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                             

                            John,
                             
                            let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                             
                            I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                             
                            Regards,
                             
                            Keith W
                             
                             
                             
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                             
                             

                            Hi Keith
                             
                            ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                             
                            I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                             
                            Regards
                             
                            JT

                            On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                             

                            Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                            I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                             
                            I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                             
                            I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                             
                             
                            Regards,
                             
                            Keith W.


                             



                          • Keith
                            John, if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though. I am not on
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 21, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              John,
                               
                              if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                               
                              I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                               
                              The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                               
                              Best wishes,
                               
                              Keith
                               
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                               
                               

                              Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                               
                              You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                               
                              The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                               
                               


                               
                              On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                               

                              John,
                               
                              I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                               
                              The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                               
                              On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                               
                              Best wishes,
                               
                              Keith
                               
                               
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                               
                               

                              Hi Keith,
                               
                              You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                               
                              Thought you knew this.
                               
                              I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                               
                              I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                               
                              The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                               
                              Fond regards
                               
                              JT
                               
                              ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                               
                               
                              Regards.

                              On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                               

                              John,
                               
                              the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                               
                              I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                               
                              Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                               
                              Keith W
                               
                               
                               
                              Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                               
                               

                              Hi Keith,
                               
                              Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                               
                              GO! Go!
                               
                              Fond regards
                               
                              John

                              On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                              Hi Keith,
                               
                              There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                               
                              I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                               
                              Regards
                               
                              John.
                               


                               
                              On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                               

                              John,
                               
                              let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                               
                              I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                               
                              Regards,
                               
                              Keith W
                               
                               
                               
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                               
                               

                              Hi Keith
                               
                              ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                               
                              I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                               
                              Regards
                               
                              JT

                              On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                               

                              Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                              I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                               
                              I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                               
                              I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                               
                               
                              Regards,
                               
                              Keith W.

                               



                            • John Tufail
                              Hi Keith, I think you were banned because of a certain person s protectiveness of his imorata, Very annoying! I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 21, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Keith,
                                 
                                I think you were banned because of a certain person's protectiveness of his imorata,  Very annoying!  I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i have never known you to lack in integrity.
                                 
                                It's a pity you have lost the stuff Kate said she sent you.  Some of it was of  significance especially regarding Carroll's relationship with the Pre-Raphaelites and George MacDonald.
                                 
                                Regards
                                 
                                JT

                                On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                 

                                John,
                                 
                                if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                                 
                                I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                                 
                                The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                                 
                                Best wishes,
                                 
                                Keith
                                 
                                Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                 
                                 

                                Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                                 
                                You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                                 
                                The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                                 
                                 


                                 
                                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                 

                                John,
                                 
                                I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                                 
                                The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                                 
                                On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                                 
                                Best wishes,
                                 
                                Keith
                                 
                                 
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                 
                                 

                                Hi Keith,
                                 
                                You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                                 
                                Thought you knew this.
                                 
                                I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                                 
                                I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                                 
                                The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                                 
                                Fond regards
                                 
                                JT
                                 
                                ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                                 
                                 
                                Regards.

                                On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                 

                                John,
                                 
                                the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                                 
                                I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                                 
                                Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                                 
                                Keith W
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                 
                                 

                                Hi Keith,
                                 
                                Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                                 
                                GO! Go!
                                 
                                Fond regards
                                 
                                John

                                On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                                Hi Keith,
                                 
                                There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                                 
                                I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                                 
                                Regards
                                 
                                John.
                                 


                                 
                                On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                 

                                John,
                                 
                                let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                                 
                                I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                                 
                                Regards,
                                 
                                Keith W
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                 
                                 

                                Hi Keith
                                 
                                ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                                 
                                I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                                 
                                Regards
                                 
                                JT

                                On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                                I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                                 
                                I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                                 
                                I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                                 
                                 
                                Regards,
                                 
                                Keith W.


                                 




                              • Keith
                                John, yes, I suppose if you count asking for proof of things people stated as being abrasive then you are right. I did indeed think a site dedicated to
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 21, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  John,
                                   
                                  yes, I suppose if you count asking for proof of things people stated as being abrasive then you are right. I did indeed think a site dedicated to research into LC would be open to discussions! I’m not into worshipping at anyone’s feet either because of their qualifications or their reputation. Unlike some though I have never had to apologise for rudeness or for making derogatory statements about other contributors! All I wanted was proof of what they were asserting about LC and I even qualified that by saying ‘not legal proof’ but common sense proof!
                                   
                                  I may not have lost your stuff on LC I rarely lose stuff I just don’t know where it is! I often printed out things Kate sent me so it could be in one of half a dozen boxes of articles. What was the correct title of the article you had in mind?
                                   
                                  Regards,
                                   
                                  Keith W
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 3:38 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                   
                                   

                                  Hi Keith,
                                   
                                  I think you were banned because of a certain person's protectiveness of his imorata,  Very annoying!  I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i have never known you to lack in integrity.
                                   
                                  It's a pity you have lost the stuff Kate said she sent you.  Some of it was of  significance especially regarding Carroll's relationship with the Pre-Raphaelites and George MacDonald.
                                   
                                  Regards
                                   
                                  JT

                                  On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  John,
                                   
                                  if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                                   
                                  I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                                   
                                  The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                                   
                                  Best wishes,
                                   
                                  Keith
                                   
                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                   
                                   

                                  Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                                   
                                  You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                                   
                                  The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                                   
                                   


                                   
                                  On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  John,
                                   
                                  I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                                   
                                  The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                                   
                                  On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                                   
                                  Best wishes,
                                   
                                  Keith
                                   
                                   
                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                   
                                   

                                  Hi Keith,
                                   
                                  You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                                   
                                  Thought you knew this.
                                   
                                  I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                                   
                                  I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                                   
                                  The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                                   
                                  Fond regards
                                   
                                  JT
                                   
                                  ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                                   
                                   
                                  Regards.

                                  On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  John,
                                   
                                  the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                                   
                                  I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                                   
                                  Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                                   
                                  Keith W
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                   
                                   

                                  Hi Keith,
                                   
                                  Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                                   
                                  GO! Go!
                                   
                                  Fond regards
                                   
                                  John

                                  On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                                  Hi Keith,
                                   
                                  There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                                   
                                  I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                                   
                                  Regards
                                   
                                  John.
                                   


                                   
                                  On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  John,
                                   
                                  let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                                   
                                  I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                                   
                                  Regards,
                                   
                                  Keith W
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                   
                                   

                                  Hi Keith
                                   
                                  ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                                   
                                  I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                                   
                                  Regards
                                   
                                  JT

                                  On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                                  I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                                   
                                  I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                                   
                                  I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                                   
                                   
                                  Regards,
                                   
                                  Keith W.

                                   




                                • John Tufail
                                  ... You are quite right. The certain person I referred to was quite sure that you were in the opposition party whoever they were. He actually did more
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 22, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                    Hi Keith,
                                     
                                    You are quite right.  The certain person' I referred to was quite sure that you were in the 'opposition party' whoever they were.  He actually did more harm to Karoline and her reputation than anyone else. 
                                     
                                    Regarding the second question is that the answer is, I don't know precisely.  I only know that Kate assured me that she sent you all the work I produced whilst I was in New Zealand together with all my work on Carroll's philosophy and theology.
                                     
                                    As i said, you could start by looking at the articles that are published on the 'Contrariwise' site', all of which you should have received.
                                     
                                    Regards
                                     
                                    JT
                                     
                                     

                                  • John Tufail
                                    PS! I know the feeling! I also rarely lose stuff - just misplace it. Sometimes fatally. I suspect that I am worse than you. ... PS!   I know the feeling!  
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 22, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      PS!
                                       
                                      I know the feeling!
                                       
                                      I also rarely lose stuff - just misplace it.  Sometimes fatally.  I suspect that I am worse than you.

                                      On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      John,
                                       
                                      yes, I suppose if you count asking for proof of things people stated as being abrasive then you are right. I did indeed think a site dedicated to research into LC would be open to discussions! I’m not into worshipping at anyone’s feet either because of their qualifications or their reputation. Unlike some though I have never had to apologise for rudeness or for making derogatory statements about other contributors! All I wanted was proof of what they were asserting about LC and I even qualified that by saying ‘not legal proof’ but common sense proof!
                                       
                                      I may not have lost your stuff on LC I rarely lose stuff I just don’t know where it is! I often printed out things Kate sent me so it could be in one of half a dozen boxes of articles. What was the correct title of the article you had in mind?
                                       
                                      Regards,
                                       
                                      Keith W
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 3:38 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                       
                                       

                                      Hi Keith,
                                       
                                      I think you were banned because of a certain person's protectiveness of his imorata,  Very annoying!  I know you can be occassionally abrasive, but i have never known you to lack in integrity.
                                       
                                      It's a pity you have lost the stuff Kate said she sent you.  Some of it was of  significance especially regarding Carroll's relationship with the Pre-Raphaelites and George MacDonald.
                                       
                                      Regards
                                       
                                      JT

                                      On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      John,
                                       
                                      if Kate did send me anything it has gone now after three or four changes of computer! I don’t recall anything of significance though.
                                       
                                      I am not on Contrariwise – I was banned for my annoying habit of asking for proof on yahoo of what was being said about Dodgson. The modern myth makers then migrated onto Contrariwise without me!
                                       
                                      The Lever is, as you say, a good resource to have in Cheshire. I often pop in there when passing as I think a casual look around without any specific Carrollian purpose means I see more in the long run. The Walker is not as good because of its modern art although it is quite good for those interested in medieval art. The Rossetti exhibition at the Walker was very good and included some of CLD’s images.
                                       
                                      Best wishes,
                                       
                                      Keith
                                       
                                      Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:30 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                       
                                       

                                      Hi Keith, I'm astounded that you have not read my works on Carroll's philosophy as Kate always assured me that she had sent you everything I had published.  Most particularly my presentation at Rennes in 2003 on 'The Hunting of the Snark' which summarises my views and the paticular influence of Coleridge.  Given that Kate was the administrator of the computer system we were using, I always, of course, relied that what she said was what she did.  And anyway, I trusted her implicitly.  Can you check that you are not mistaken?
                                       
                                      You will find some of my most pertinent papers on the 'Contrariwise' site.
                                       
                                      The Lever, always mentions the framing - they actually KNOW the Pre-raphaelites,  It is one of the most pleasurable galleries to visit.  I love it very much,  there is an air of, something, I can't explain about it.  Perhaps serenity combined with knowledge and truth.  Maybe integrity.  The Walker also has feel about it I like.
                                       
                                       


                                       
                                      On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      John,
                                       
                                      I’m not so sure CLD shared anyone’s views on philosophy or theology. I’ve not read your views on it so I cannot comment on them. Let me know where I can read what you think about it.
                                       
                                      The critics comment on the way the exhibition portrays the Pre-Raphaelites, they tend not to criticise the works themselves. I was in the Lever yesterday, I often call in when passing that way, and there is of course plenty of Pre-Raphaelite art still there. One critic did mention the framing and of course the Lever mentions Rossetti and Hunt designing the frames. 'The Blessed Damozel', by Rossetti is missing from the Lever so I assume it is at the Tate, the frame there is very elaborate and the layman misses the significance of two pictures in one frame.
                                       
                                      On Sherry’s book, it is always good to have a cheaper second edition and changing publisher is sometimes necessary I guess!
                                       
                                      Best wishes,
                                       
                                      Keith
                                       
                                       
                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:38 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                       
                                       

                                      Hi Keith,
                                       
                                      You have read, I suppose, my work on both Carroll's philosophy and theology, so it's a no brainer why Rossetti, Holman Hunt and Ford Madox Brown 'tolerated' Carroll.  They all shared very similar theological and philosophical vies - and the link, of course, to MacDonald was crucial.
                                       
                                      Thought you knew this.
                                       
                                      I was supposed to go to the exhibition today with a friend.  Unfortunately because of a rapid deterioration in my mobility i had to call it off.  Still hopeful though.
                                       
                                      I concur wit you re the critics.  Many modern critics have only a cursory idea of what the Pre-Raphaelites actually stood for.  A lot of them, I suspect don't even understand the importance the Pre-raphaelites gave to framing.
                                       
                                      The best analysis i have ever heard on the Pre-raphaelites was from the then curator of the Walker gallery (35 years ago!)  It was she who actually started me in the linguistic importance of Pre-Raphaelite art!  Wish I could remember her name!
                                       
                                      Fond regards
                                       
                                      JT
                                       
                                      ps, what do you think of Michael Everson taking over publishing rights of Sherry Ackerman's book?
                                       
                                       
                                      Regards.

                                      On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      John,
                                       
                                      the reviewers are less enthusiastic about it! Criticism goes towards the telling of the Pre-Raphaelite story and the coherence of the tale. I’m not certain if that is a valid criticism as the tale varies according to the perceptions you bring to it.
                                       
                                      I suppose my question is always as to the reason Millais, Holman Hunt, Rossetti and others tolerated Lewis Carroll in their circle. He wasn’t famous when he met them so it wasn’t ‘Alice’ that worked the introductions as was to happen later on. They must have seen some merit in him as none of them, apart from perhaps Millais perhaps, were thought to be personable by their contemporaries.
                                       
                                      Be interested to hear your take on it after you have been. The pictures in the main I have seen at other exhibitions so it is the story the exhibition tells which is my interest.
                                       
                                      Keith W
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:36 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                       
                                       

                                      Hi Keith,
                                       
                                      Joe Soap has visited it.  I am impressed by his analysis.  He is cerain that the Lever 'Scapegoat' is in ter exhibition.  I believe him, anyone who has seen this remarkable painting could not mistake it for any other.
                                       
                                      GO! Go!
                                       
                                      Fond regards
                                       
                                      John

                                      On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM, John Tufail <johntufail@...> wrote:
                                      Hi Keith,
                                       
                                      There is only one 'Scapegoat' to me!  That is the wonderful painting in Lever Gallery.
                                       
                                      I will go, but I fear I am beginning to share your reservations.  I intend to go on Friday.
                                       
                                      Regards
                                       
                                      John.
                                       


                                       
                                      On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      John,
                                       
                                      let me know when you have been! Until I get a recommendation then I’m staying away Tate or Tate Modern! 
                                       
                                      I saw that a few Rossetti paintings were missing from the Lever gallery but ‘Sir Umbras at The Ford’ was still there. (The horse in that one is not well painted!)  ‘The Scapegoat’ was still there but they may have got another copy of it as Holman Hunt painted a few versions of it as he did with ‘The Light of the World.’
                                       
                                      Regards,
                                       
                                      Keith W
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:09 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                       
                                       

                                      Hi Keith
                                       
                                      ,I haven't been yet, though i intend going.  I have seen a preview (that didn't paticularly impress - though there were some good points).  This is aTtate Gallery presentation (no tTtate Modern)  The two should be very clearly separated!  I think the exhibition you saw was by the Tate modern team.  Did you happen to see whether Holman's Hunts 'The Scape Goat'  Was one of the 'absent ' paintings?  If this is a serious examination of Pre-Raphaelite art it should have been.
                                       
                                      I think you should make the effort to see this.  Even from the slightly unsatisfactory preview i have seen, there are some wonderful paintings on display - including Ford Maddox Fords 'Work' that includes images of people well within Carroll's compass.
                                       
                                      Regards
                                       
                                      JT

                                      On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Has anyone been to this exhibition at the Tate?
                                      I assume they have some of the paintings there that LC saw in the artists’ studios.
                                       
                                      I was at the Lever gallery in Port Sunlight recently and saw that a few of their paintings were missing, probably on loan to the Tate.
                                       
                                      I’m reluctant to go to the Tate because when they organised a Lewis Carroll exhibition up in Liverpool, which included some paintings, it was a shambles – very disappointing.
                                       
                                       
                                      Regards,
                                       
                                      Keith W.


                                       





                                    • Keith
                                      John, seeing Machiavellian plots is the sign of delusion! I’m in nobody’s party I and never have been. I simply require folk to have a reasonable set of
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 22, 2012
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                                        John,
                                         
                                        seeing Machiavellian plots is the sign of delusion! I’m in nobody’s party I and never have been. I simply require folk to have a reasonable set of proofs for things they assert. I’d not join any group that does not permit intellectual freedom – that’s why I won’t be looking at contrariwise!
                                         
                                        Have you made it to the Tate yet? I’d be interested in how they put the exhibition together and if it told a coherent story. The criticism at Tate modern was not that the exhibits were not interesting, as they were, but that the story was not presented to the layman in a fashion that he/she could understand. Questions such as ‘What has Charles Dodgson to do with Lewis Carroll?’ were heard along with ‘Why is that camera here?’ and ‘Who is that picture of and why is it here?’ (It was actually Agnes Weld but it didn't say so and the staff didn’t know either.) It’s fine for the Guardian critic Jonathan Jones to say ‘ By far the best exhibition of Pre-Raphaelite art I have seen’ but I’d rather hear from someone who didn’t have a background in the subject and who came away enlightened! At Tate modern many people came away puzzled and/or disgruntled and quite a few commented that they regretted having to pay for entry!
                                         
                                        Regards,
                                         
                                        Keith
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 12:44 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re Tate PreRaphaelite Exhibition
                                         
                                         



                                        On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Keith <keith@...> wrote:
                                        Hi Keith,
                                         
                                        You are quite right.  The certain person' I referred to was quite sure that you were in the 'opposition party' whoever they were.  He actually did more harm to Karoline and her reputation than anyone else.
                                         
                                        Regarding the second question is that the answer is, I don't know precisely.  I only know that Kate assured me that she sent you all the work I produced whilst I was in New Zealand together with all my work on Carroll's philosophy and theology.
                                         
                                        As i said, you could start by looking at the articles that are published on the 'Contrariwise' site', all of which you should have received.
                                         
                                        Regards
                                         
                                        JT
                                         
                                         

                                      • oldjoesoap
                                        I guess that mounting and presenting an exhibition like this is a creative task and one which exposes the curators to criticism from professional critics, and
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 23, 2012
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                                          I guess that mounting and presenting an exhibition like this is a creative task and one which exposes the curators to criticism from professional critics, and from people who don't share the curators' particular viewpoint.
                                          The works in the exhibition are selected carefully and have been divided between eight categories (origins, religion, aesthetics, nature etc.) and then hung in their divisions in roughly chronological order. More attention than usual is given to the pre-Raphaelite as polymath - so the exhibition contains some books of poetry and other writing, as well as examples of applied arts - furniture, tapestry and stained glass. Each work is accompanied by a short written explanation and the £25 catalogue goes into much more detail. The three curators (one British, two American) have chosen to present the pre-Raphaelites as a "Victorian Avant-Garde" which - given the reactionary and backward-looking nature of the movement - may puzzle some people. The curators justify their position with essays in the catalogue. I suspect that most people visiting the exhibition will be primarily interested in the paintings for their own sake, but explanations of the symbolism used in the paintings are provided for those who are interested. There is a bookshop at the entrance to the exhibition with a huge selection of books for sale on the pre-Raphaelite movement. The danger of trying to present a coherent story that can be easily understood by the layman, is that there is then a temptation to simplify, pigeonhole and mythologise. Although at the formation of the Brotherhood in 1848, the members were able to find common ground, this did not remain for long. They all managed to remain friends of a sort but their story, with its divisions and factions, is complex and not easily and quickly told or understood.
                                          j

                                          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > John,
                                          >
                                          > seeing Machiavellian plots is the sign of delusion! I’m in nobody’s party I and never have been. I simply require folk to have a reasonable set of proofs for things they assert. I’d not join any group that does not permit intellectual freedom â€" that’s why I won’t be looking at contrariwise!
                                          >
                                          > Have you made it to the Tate yet? I’d be interested in how they put the exhibition together and if it told a coherent story. The criticism at Tate modern was not that the exhibits were not interesting, as they were, but that the story was not presented to the layman in a fashion that he/she could understand. Questions such as ‘What has Charles Dodgson to do with Lewis Carroll?’ were heard along with ‘Why is that camera here?’ and ‘Who is that picture of and why is it here?’ (It was actually Agnes Weld but it didn't say so and the staff didn’t know either.) It’s fine for the Guardian critic Jonathan Jones to say ‘ By far the best exhibition of Pre-Raphaelite art I have seen’ but I’d rather hear from someone who didn’t have a background in the subject and who came away enlightened! At Tate modern many people came away puzzled and/or disgruntled and quite a few commented that they regretted having to pay for entry!
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Keith
                                          >
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