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Alice's Birthday (160 years ago)

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  • Keith
    Alice’s 160th birthday party in Llandudno was well attended. It was reported on ITV news that 1700+ people created a world record for eating jam tarts! The
    Message 1 of 7 , May 5, 2012
    Alice’s 160th birthday party in  Llandudno was well attended. It was reported on ITV news that 1700+ people created a world record for eating jam tarts!
     
    The total number of people there must have topped 3000.
     
    Keith W
  • Justin
    Hi Keith (and everyone). Personally I m delighted to hear the party went well, but can you tell me what the justification is for having an Alice party in
    Message 2 of 7 , May 6, 2012
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      Hi Keith (and everyone).

      Personally I'm delighted to hear the party went well, but can you tell me what the justification is for having an Alice party in Llandudno at all? From what I understnad, most experts (not that I necssearily agree with them) think Dodgson never went there, and it had nothing to do with the Alice books?

      --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
      >
      > Alice’s 160th birthday party in Llandudno was well attended. It was reported on ITV news that 1700+ people created a world record for eating jam tarts!
      >
      > The total number of people there must have topped 3000.
      >
      > Keith W
      >
    • Keith
      Hi, you are quite right in saying that Lewis Carroll never went to Llandudno in the time that he knew Alice. However, Alice Liddell and the other Liddells
      Message 3 of 7 , May 6, 2012
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        Hi,
         
        you are quite right in saying that Lewis Carroll never went to Llandudno in the time that he knew Alice. However, Alice Liddell and the other Liddells certainly did go to Llandudno during the time he was writing both Alice books and that is justification for celebrating her birthday there. The Liddell’s house stood on the west shore until 2008 – it was built for the Liddell family and it was their favourite holiday destination for about ten years. The Liddell parents spent some of their honeymoon in North Wales and regarded the area very favourably.
         
        Kate Lyon always thought Lewis Carroll visited Llandudno and she homed in on the time when the diaries had a three week break in 1864 so I carried out some investigation work for her but without any resulting finds. Unfortunately, as I told Kate, this time also coincided with the Eisteddfod which was held that year in Llandudno so a minor Oxford don would go unnoticed by the local papers who were swamped with celebrities at that time. Also, if he stayed with the Liddells, however unlikely that may seem, then the reporters who trawled through the hotel registers for the famous would have not even seen that Charles Dodgson esquire was there at all! (Alice did actually say that LC never came to Llandudno to see her.)
         
        The other justification is to keep ‘Alice’ in the minds of the 1000+ children who attended the party. Without the younger generation having an interest then, once the old guard have gone, Lewis Carroll will go with them into the history books.
         
        Hope that helps explain things!
         
        Regards,
         
        Keith
         
         
         
        From: Justin
        Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 5:20 PM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Alice's Birthday (160 years ago)
         
         

        Hi Keith (and everyone).

        Personally I'm delighted to hear the party went well, but can you tell me what the justification is for having an Alice party in Llandudno at all? From what I understnad, most experts (not that I necssearily agree with them) think Dodgson never went there, and it had nothing to do with the Alice books?

        --- In mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:

        >
        > Alice’s 160th birthday party
        in Llandudno was well attended. It was reported on ITV news that 1700+ people created a world record for eating jam tarts!
        >
        > The total number
        of people there must have topped 3000.
        >
        > Keith
        W
        >

      • Justin
        Hi Keith. Thanks for your reply - though I didn t actually say Dodgson never went to Llandudno, just that most people seem to think he didn t! Personally I
        Message 4 of 7 , May 8, 2012
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          Hi Keith. Thanks for your reply - though I didn't actually say Dodgson never went to Llandudno, just that most people seem to think he didn't!

          Personally I think there's a pretty good chance he did, seeing as he seems to have photographed the place. (If I recall rightly there's a photo of - what was the place called - Penmorpha? - with a family group in front, in an album where all the other photos are by Dodgson which kind of suggests that one is too). But I understand the Carroll Establishment is quite hung up on proving he wasn't.

          Where did Alice say that Dodgson was never there? I'm sure you're right, I just can't place the quote myslef. I remember reading a letter something like 'he can't have been there before 1862', which isn't quite the same as 'he never was'.

          Your final para is of course the best justification possible and I approve 100%.

          Justin
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > you are quite right in saying that Lewis Carroll never went to Llandudno in the time that he knew Alice. However, Alice Liddell and the other Liddells certainly did go to Llandudno during the time he was writing both Alice books and that is justification for celebrating her birthday there. The Liddell’s house stood on the west shore until 2008 â€" it was built for the Liddell family and it was their favourite holiday destination for about ten years. The Liddell parents spent some of their honeymoon in North Wales and regarded the area very favourably.
          >
          > Kate Lyon always thought Lewis Carroll visited Llandudno and she homed in on the time when the diaries had a three week break in 1864 so I carried out some investigation work for her but without any resulting finds. Unfortunately, as I told Kate, this time also coincided with the Eisteddfod which was held that year in Llandudno so a minor Oxford don would go unnoticed by the local papers who were swamped with celebrities at that time. Also, if he stayed with the Liddells, however unlikely that may seem, then the reporters who trawled through the hotel registers for the famous would have not even seen that Charles Dodgson esquire was there at all! (Alice did actually say that LC never came to Llandudno to see her.)
          >
          > The other justification is to keep ‘Alice’ in the minds of the 1000+ children who attended the party. Without the younger generation having an interest then, once the old guard have gone, Lewis Carroll will go with them into the history books.
          >
          > Hope that helps explain things!
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Keith
          >
          >
          >
          > From: Justin
          > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 5:20 PM
          > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Alice's Birthday (160 years ago)
          >
          >
          > Hi Keith (and everyone).
          >
          > Personally I'm delighted to hear the party went well, but can you tell me what the justification is for having an Alice party in Llandudno at all? From what I understnad, most experts (not that I necssearily agree with them) think Dodgson never went there, and it had nothing to do with the Alice books?
          >
          > --- In mailto:lewiscarroll%40yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Alice’s 160th birthday party in Llandudno was well attended. It was reported on ITV news that 1700+ people created a world record for eating jam tarts!
          > >
          > > The total number of people there must have topped 3000.
          > >
          > > Keith W
          > >
          >
        • Keith
          Justin, he certainly never recorded in his diary that he ever went to Llandudno. In fact Llandundo is only mentioned once in the diaries on June 30th 1863 when
          Message 5 of 7 , May 8, 2012
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            Justin,
             
            he certainly never recorded in his diary that he ever went to Llandudno. In fact Llandundo is only mentioned once in the diaries on June 30th 1863 when he says ‘The Deanery party left for Llandudno.’
             
            I think it is a little unfair to say that the Carrollians are hung up on proving that he was never there! The debacle arose from claims by Llandudno folk that he had been there and naturally that led to people saying when? The book by Michael Senior entitled ‘Did LC Visit Llandudno?’ was published in 2000 although claims that he had visited were made long before this time and embedded on the White Rabbit statue in front of Penmorfa in the 1930’s. This was probably just wishful thinking by the then Llandudno tourist people.
             
            What I did was to look at the gaps in the diaries after the time when they resumed in May 1862 and the results were inconclusive. A day trip was not feasible but a weekend or a few days certainly was a possibility in the gaps. Penmorfa was not completed until late 1862 and it was not in a condition to receive visitors until 1863. Alice answered a query from her son about a time in 1862 and she said it was too early for him to have visited, presumably because she knew that the house was in no fit state for receiving visitors. As far as I know even the more favoured Christ Church dons never ever visited Penmorfa - Liddon, Bayne etc. but of course they were not writing stories for the children. LC did visit them in Cheltenham in April 1863 but the parents were not there, this was at Charlton Kings when they were staying in grandparent’s house in what is referred to as ‘Looking Glass house’ at Hetton Lawn.
             
            The photo of Penmorfa showing the children in front of the house is not really LC’s style and what mitigates against it being his is that there are none of the children before or after it in his photograph album. I don’t believe he would go to the trouble of preparing collodion simply to take a picture of a house when he also had a group of children there who he could also photograph. Alice had images taken at Llandudno but these were studio portraits by the local photographer. I think that image was taken as a means of saying ‘look what I’ve got’ for the Liddell family and it was probably given to LC by one of the children.
             
            It must remain at the moment as a mystery.
             
            Regards,
             
            Keith
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