Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2852

Expand Messages
  • Mike Hall
    Keith   I couldnt agree with you more   kind regards   Mike ... From: Keith Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 2, 2010
      Keith
       
      I couldnt agree with you more
       
      kind regards
       
      Mike

      --- On Mon, 31/5/10, Keith <keith@...> wrote:

      From: Keith <keith@...>
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2852
      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, 31 May, 2010, 21:21

       
      Mike,
       
      I have seen the census returns and I have researched articles about Coffee Johnny and in fact knew of him before this debacle got underway.
       
      There is no doubt that he knew the local aristocracy on Tyneside and despite this being when birth records were not so well kept as they became later on there is no evidence to prove that Coffee Johnny was anything but what is stated on the census. The idea that he was Liddell's son and so Alice's half brother is completely unsubstantiated. Had Liddell still been alive this would have resulted in a libel case against Robert but since he is dead he appears to be fair game!
       
      Equally, the idea that Alice Liddell would react to Coffee Johnny as if she was little girl when she was in later life is just ludicrous. If Robert had read Anne Clarke's 'The Real Alice' he would have seen that Alice Liddell was nothing like the 'Alice' of the book in later life.
       
      This tale needs burying until there is some evidence. It's exasperating to have it raised when there is something to try and hang a tale upon however ludicrous it may be. It serves no purpose.
       
      Regards,
       
      Keith W
       
       
       
       
       
       

      From: Mike Hall
      Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 7:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2852

       
      Hi All

      I have been a member of this group for a long time and have listened to the debates with Robert Batey and have kept quiet as I did not want to discredit a distant cousin, but I now feel that I need to intervene. I am too a very proud relative of Coffy Johnny (CJ). I too have been passed down from my grandparents lots of stories about the great man. I am also in close contact with other relatives who are also great grandchildren of CJ's daughters and sons. They too have been passed down similar stories that I have from their parents. 

      I have read the Roberts book and I enjoyed it for what it is, which is a set of tales. Yes, there is truth that CJ did know the Ravensworth family; he was a famous Tyneside character; he was a giant for his time and a famous local blacksmith, all of that we can prove.

      I do recognise some of the tales Robert describes in his book, however, myself and the other relatives, find it hard to believe that a lot of the tales that Robert describes about LC, Alice, Harcourt and Oxford could be true and if they were, why were they never passed down to us. My great grandmother was one of CJ's daughters and CJ lived with her in his later years (this was also the house where he died). We could assume from this that CJ was quite close to my great grandmother. My great grandmother was a smart and very intelligent lady and proudly passed down the tales about CJ's exploits to us all, however, surprisingly she passed nothing in relation to Alice, LC, Harcourt or trips to Oxford, which surely she would have told us about ????? 

      Also over the years there have been a few local authors and local journalists who have wrote articles about CJ (including an interview with one of Robert's close relatives in 1969), surely one of these authors would have come across some of these facts, for example, like being a bodyguard for such key figures or for even knowing LC. 

      Robert, if you pick up this message, I do believe that your book is well meant, however you cannot try and attempt to pass these tales off as fact without any real evidence. I work in the city as an analyst and I also work as a part time archaeologist and would not embarrass myself by presenting findings or theories to my peers without irrefutable evidence. 

      Robert, myself and my family do take great offence that you state that C J was adopted and his parents were aristocracy and deny his true parentage (this has now found its way on to wikipedia as fact!!!). This is complete UTTER RUBBISH, you have no evidence for this and you cant explain away that there are church records recording his baptism just after his birth to his true parents. You have suggested that they could have been "rewritten" several years later when he was adopted. Although that is possible, however, it did not happen and I have proven that it did not happen.

      Robert, to be taken seriously by myself or anyone you need to provide us with real and irrefutable evidence and if some of the tales in your book are true, you will be able to find some real evidence somewhere. 

      Kind regards
      Mike

      --- On Mon, 31/5/10, fernando soto <ferjsoto42@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: fernando soto <ferjsoto42@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2852
      To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, 31 May, 2010, 14:28

       
      1) The usual rule is that one needs to prove the positive.  If I say the "Snark is a monster living in the Isle of Wight," I need to show somehow some such monster at the Isle of Wight.  It is ludicrous to turn around after someone casts doubt on my statement and say, "well, you can't prove that no such creature exists in the Isle of Wight!"

      2) We have nothing of the sort.  Giving you the benefit of doubt, you think you have a story passed on through several generations.  And, it is a very unlikely story at that!  So this talk about having C J's "word as a gentleman" is itself suspect!

      Fernando


      From: Robert Batey <londnbob@gmail. com>
      To: No Reply <notify-dg-lewiscarr oll@yahoogroups. com>
      Cc: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 9:07:04 AM
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Digest Number 2852

       
      Many upper class folk in Victorian times made trips into London, often returning late at night. It is silly to suggest they never used bodyguards. Certainly I believe my great grandfather was employed by LC and the Harcourts on their numerous trips to London. But I would no want to continue such a discussion to those bent on nothing but disbelief. Can you prove that he did not? Of course not. Not anymore than I can prove Coffee Johnny did. We only have has word as a gentleman. That's all.
      Robert Batey

      On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 7:24 AM, <lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:

      Messages In This Digest (18 Messages)

      1a.
      William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny From: londnbob51@rocketma il.com
      1b.
      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny From: Keith
      1c.
      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny From: fernando soto
      1d.
      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny From: Keith
      1e.
      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny From: karoline5667
      1f.
      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny From: Michael Everson
      1g.
      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny From: karoline5667
      2a.
      Re: More Info On Father William From: lucy chew
      3a.
      Re: Cricket From: Keith
      3b.
      Re: Cricket From: tim
      3c.
      Re: Cricket From: Keith
      3d.
      Re: Cricket From: Mike
      3e.
      Re: Cricket From: Keith
      3f.
      Re: Cricket From: karoline5667
      3g.
      Re: Cricket From: Keith
      3h.
      Re: Cricket From: Michael Everson
      4a.
      Alice Movie 2010 From: tim
      4b.
      Re: Alice Movie 2010 From: Keith

      Messages

      1a.

      William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Posted by: "londnbob51@rocketma il.com" everson@evertype. com   evertype

      Sun May 30, 2010 7:36 am (PDT)




      So Keith, you don't believe the Harcourts, loaded with geld and living in the huge Nuneham Courtney country mansion, were not in need of a bodyguard, least of all William, later to be knighted as you rightly report. Perhaps all the Harcourt's horses did not need a blacksmith either.
      My additional information is, just for interest, that the 'Father' part of William's name was given by Coffee Johnny, since he often gave 'fatherly' advice to Johnny. Tenniel's famous illustrations, however, portray William as a much older man than he actually was at the time of LC at Christ Church.
      By the way, the little boat house in which Coffee Johnny lodged while he was William's and the rest of the Harcourt's body guard, is still there today on the Isis in the grounds of Nuneham Courtney. The boat house is well worth a visit; it bears a striking resemblance to the house in which Alice grew huge, portrayed in the Disney film of Alice in Wonderland. The Disney artists did visit the area for inspiration before the film was made.
      Robert Batey

      1b.

      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Posted by: "Keith" keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk   keith_alan_wright

      Sun May 30, 2010 10:10 am (PDT)



      Robert,

      No I don't believe the Harcourts needed a bodyguard. The concept is meaningless in Victorian times. They had gamekeepers, butlers etc. and guns!

      Whether they had a live-in blacksmith I don't know but neither do you or at least if you do you've not offered any evidence. There was a blacksmith in nearly every village in mid Victorian times - as you well know as Coffee Johnny was the blacksmith in his own village on Tyneside. That's not hearsay - it's census evidence.

      You have not made the link between William Harcourt and father William in a convincing manner. Neither have you advanced any proof that Coffee Johnny was at the Harcourt's house or that he lodged in their boathouse. I dare say the boat house does bear a resemblance to the one in AIW - Charles Dodgson went there many times and a boat house is a fairly standard thing in most cases!

      As to Disney! The idea of Disney sending anyone to a boathouse to check for authenticity is ludicrous when you think of the massive travesty of both Disney productions. That's not to say I didn't like the latest Disney effort, I did. To call it 'Alice in Wonderland' was stretching credibility but nevertheless it served a purpose and created an interest in LC's work.

      Keith W
      1c.

      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Posted by: "fernando soto" ferjsoto42@yahoo. com   ferjsoto42

      Sun May 30, 2010 10:29 am (PDT)



      Dear Robert,

      I thought that a fact-based Keith had caught you with your imaginative pants down, but I now see that you are trying to pull them up, with what I perceive are two hands tied behind your back!

      Are you saying that anyone with a mansion, particularly those later to be knighted, needed a body guard as much as a horse needs a blacksmith? Good logic there! I've read a book or two about this period and it seems that the rich and powerful had little to fear, because the poor were powerless and "kept down" through force - mainly thick walking sticks and guns - and persuasion - usually religion and drink.

      You also keep mentioning that the boat house is still there, almost implying that if you are not wrong about it, then the stuff about Coffee must be true! The difference is that we can check to see if the boathouse is there, unlike your flights of fancy about Coffee. Have you considered that if what you say is true - and that is a gigantic "if"! - then Carroll's book should be called Coffee Johnnie's Adventures in Wonderland. In your scheme, C. J. seems to be such an integral part of almost every passage, he towers over Alice!

      Are you aware of a very rare book titled 'Alice's Adventures Underground. ' It also shows an older father William.

      All best,

      Fernando

      ____________ _________ _________ __
      From: "londnbob51@rocketma il.com" <everson@evertype. com>
      To: lewiscarroll- owner@yahoogroup s.com
      Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 7:15:26 AM
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      So Keith, you don't believe the Harcourts, loaded with geld and living in the huge Nuneham Courtney country mansion, were not in need of a bodyguard, least of all William, later to be knighted as you rightly report. Perhaps all the Harcourt's horses did not need a blacksmith either.
      My additional information is, just for interest, that the 'Father' part of William's name was given by Coffee Johnny, since he often gave 'fatherly' advice to Johnny. Tenniel's famous illustrations, however, portray William as a much older man than he actually was at the time of LC at Christ Church.
      By the way, the little boat house in which Coffee Johnny lodged while he was William's and the rest of the Harcourt's body guard, is still there today on the Isis in the grounds of Nuneham Courtney. The boat house is well worth a visit; it bears a striking resemblance to the house in which Alice grew huge, portrayed in the Disney film of Alice in Wonderland. The Disney artists did visit the area for inspiration before the film was made.
      Robert Batey

      1d.

      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Posted by: "Keith" keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk   keith_alan_wright

      Sun May 30, 2010 12:05 pm (PDT)



      Fernando,

      so what you are saying is that if you are in as hole it is better to stop digging!

      Facts do have a nasty habit of rubbishing theories and some theories are quite appealing so that I almost regret asking for even a morsel of proof - this Coffee Johnny one isn't one of those!

      Keith W

      From: fernando soto
      Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:28 PM
      To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Dear Robert,

      I thought that a fact-based Keith had caught you with your imaginative pants down, but I now see that you are trying to pull them up, with what I perceive are two hands tied behind your back!

      Are you saying that anyone with a mansion, particularly those later to be knighted, needed a body guard as much as a horse needs a blacksmith? Good logic there! I've read a book or two about this period and it seems that the rich and powerful had little to fear, because the poor were powerless and "kept down" through force - mainly thick walking sticks and guns - and persuasion - usually religion and drink.

      You also keep mentioning that the boat house is still there, almost implying that if you are not wrong about it, then the stuff about Coffee must be true! The difference is that we can check to see if the boathouse is there, unlike your flights of fancy about Coffee. Have you considered that if what you say is true - and that is a gigantic "if"! - then Carroll's book should be called Coffee Johnnie's Adventures in Wonderland. In your scheme, C. J. seems to be such an integral part of almost every passage, he towers over Alice!

      Are you aware of a very rare book titled 'Alice's Adventures Underground. ' It also shows an older father William.

      All best,

      Fernando

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      From: "londnbob51@ rocke tmail.com" <everson@evertype. com>
      To: lewiscarroll- owner@yahoogroup s.com
      Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 7:15:26 AM
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      So Keith, you don't believe the Harcourts, loaded with geld and living in the huge Nuneham Courtney country mansion, were not in need of a bodyguard, least of all William, later to be knighted as you rightly report. Perhaps all the Harcourt's horses did not need a blacksmith either.
      My additional information is, just for interest, that the 'Father' part of William's name was given by Coffee Johnny, since he often gave 'fatherly' advice to Johnny. Tenniel's famous illustrations, however, portray William as a much older man than he actually was at the time of LC at Christ Church.
      By the way, the little boat house in which Coffee Johnny lodged while he was William's and the rest of the Harcourt's body guard, is still there today on the Isis in the grounds of Nuneham Courtney. The boat house is well worth a visit; it bears a striking resemblance to the house in which Alice grew huge, portrayed in the Disney film of Alice in Wonderland. The Disney artists did visit the area for inspiration before the film was made.
      Robert Batey

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2906 - Release Date: 05/30/10 10:21:00

      1e.

      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Posted by: "karoline5667" karoline@hush. com   karoline5667

      Sun May 30, 2010 2:31 pm (PDT)



      You seem to have the same email address as the moderator now - how did that happen?

      k

      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "londnbob51@ . .." <everson@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > So Keith, you don't believe the Harcourts, loaded with geld and living in the huge Nuneham Courtney country mansion, were not in need of a bodyguard, least of all William, later to be knighted as you rightly report. Perhaps all the Harcourt's horses did not need a blacksmith either.
      > My additional information is, just for interest, that the 'Father' part of William's name was given by Coffee Johnny, since he often gave 'fatherly' advice to Johnny. Tenniel's famous illustrations, however, portray William as a much older man than he actually was at the time of LC at Christ Church.
      > By the way, the little boat house in which Coffee Johnny lodged while he was William's and the rest of the Harcourt's body guard, is still there today on the Isis in the grounds of Nuneham Courtney. The boat house is well worth a visit; it bears a striking resemblance to the house in which Alice grew huge, portrayed in the Disney film of Alice in Wonderland. The Disney artists did visit the area for inspiration before the film was made.
      > Robert Batey
      >

      1f.

      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Posted by: "Michael Everson" everson@evertype. com   evertype

      Sun May 30, 2010 2:44 pm (PDT)



      On 30 May 2010, at 22:30, karoline5667 wrote:

      > You seem to have the same email address as the moderator now - how did that happen?

      He did not post to the list and I "redirected" it.

      Michael Everson * http://www.evertype .com/

      1g.

      Re: William Harcourt & Coffee Johnny

      Posted by: "karoline5667" karoline@hush. com   karoline5667

      Sun May 30, 2010 2:55 pm (PDT)



      Oh darn, I thought I'd caught you playing us all. :-)

      Sorry Robert - seriously though, is that your real name?

      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 30 May 2010, at 22:30, karoline5667 wrote:
      >
      > > You seem to have the same email address as the moderator now - how did that happen?
      >
      > He did not post to the list and I "redirected" it.
      >
      > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype .com/
      >

      2a.

      Re: More Info On Father William

      Posted by: "lucy chew" lillienchew@ yahoo.com   lillienchew

      Sun May 30, 2010 7:57 am (PDT)



      I sympathize, Mr. Batey.  My family has facts that prove the Earth is flat.  Nobody believes us, either.

      --- On Sat, 5/29/10, karoline5667 <karoline@hush. com> wrote:

      From: karoline5667 <karoline@hush. com>
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: More Info On Father William
      To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 10:32 AM

       

      No one believes you??

      I'm stunned.

      Is Robert Batey your real name?

      :-)

      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, Robert Batey <londnbob@...> wrote:
      >
      > I just thought I would add to the interest in the poem 'Father
      William'. My
      > info is that Father William was based on Sir William Harcourt, the
      British
      > Home Secretary at the time Lewis Carrol (Charles Dodgson) wrote the
      poem.
      > Sir William lived at Nuneham Courtney mansion house on the banks of
      the
      > River Isis, just a few miles from Oxford. On the grounds of Nuneham
      Courtney
      > is a tiny boathouse. It was Alice Liddell who told Charles Dodgson
      about
      > Coffee Johnny (John Oliver), the north east Geordie character, who
      allowed
      > an eel to wriggle out of his hand, as he was preparing it for food in
      the
      > upstairs room of the boathouse. The wriggling eel then fell out of the
      > upstairs window and on to the nose of the rotund Sir William below.
      Coffee
      > Johnny explained to Alice that just for a few milleseconds, Father
      William
      > actually balanced an eel on his nose. This in turn inspired Charles
      Dodgson
      > to write the poem.
      > The boathouse is still there today. Alice saw Coffee Johnny there
      quite
      > often on her 'golden afternoons on the Isis. Johnny lived upstairs in
      the
      > boathouse for a while, when he was a bodyguard and blacksmith for Sir
      > William. Alice, once inside the tiny boathouse, told Coffee Johnny she
      > thought she had grown enormously. This again inspired Dodgson to use
      the
      > tale of the growing Alice in his story.
      > Coffee Johnny was my great grandfather and these "facts" have been
      known in
      > my family for generations. The problem is, nobody believes them. I
      accept
      > this, with disappointment. I don't seek any arguments about it, but
      mention
      > it in case people may be interested. More details can be seen in my
      book
      > "Under His Hat" www.strategicbookpu blishing. com/UnderHisHat. html
      > My royalties go to orphan homes.
      > Robert H. Batey
      >
      > --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "knaveofarts" knaveofarts@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The number 42 appears 17 times in the two Alice books as the
      sum of
      > the syllables in a verse. This is the result of the repetitive
      syllabic
      > pattern of the horizontal lines in a verse, such as 8- 6- 8 -6 -8 -6
      in the
      > prefatory poem to Book 1, and also in The Walrus and the Carpenter.
      Other
      > syllabic forms used in these books that sum to 42 are 12- 9- 12 -9, in
      > Father William; and 11 -10 -11- 10 in To the Looking-Glass World.
      > >
      > > In AAIW, the syllables sum to 42 in Vss 1, 4, 5 and 6 of the
      > prefatory poem, and in Vs 7 of Father William. In TTLG, the syllables
      sum to
      > 42 in Vss 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 17 of The Walrus and the
      > Carpenter, and in Vs 4 of To The Looking Glass World.
      > >
      > > There are some other ways we can count 42: The prefatory poem
      to Book
      > 1 has 7 verses of 6 lines apiece. 7 x 6 = 42. The sum of the syllables
      in
      > the line column 3 of all the 6 verses of the prefatory poem is 42. If
      > "frumious" is pronounced as froom-yus, the sum of the syllables in all
      the
      > 4th line column of the verses of Jabberwocky is 42. The sum of all
      the
      > words in the third line column of each verse of Jabberwocky is 42.
      > >
      > > There are no verses in the Alice books that have 42 words, so
      clearly
      > counting syllables is more likely to sum to 42 than is counting words.
      > >
      > > There is also a sort of oddity involving 142. The sum of all the
      > syllables in Turtle Soup is 142. The sum of all the words in L1 of all
      20
      > verses of Humpty Dumpty's song is 142. And, To the Looking-Glass World
      has
      > 142 words.
      > >
      > > The number of times a verse has exactly 42 syllables in the two
      Alice
      > books combined is 17. Thus, 17 verses out of the total of 113 verses
      of
      > Book 1 and Books is only about 15% of all the verses. I see 42 appear
      only
      > 4 times in counting the syllables or the words of the 118 line
      columns of
      > all the verses of Book 1 and Book 2, which is around 3%. In this
      sense, 42
      > does not seem to be significant.
      > >
      > > Interestingly, 42 occurs also 17 times as the sum of syllables
      in a
      > verse, in The Hunting of the Snark. It appears as the sum of the
      syllables
      > of Fit 1, Vs 6 and 12; Fit 2, Vs 9; Fit 3, Vs 2, 3, 7, 11, 14; Fit 5,
      Vs 5,
      > 15, 20; Fit 6, Vs 12, 16, 17 (Vs 18 has 42 syllables only if 'every"
      is
      > pronounced with 3 syllables instead of 2.} The syllabic pattern of the
      4
      > lines of a verse that add to 42 in the Snark is usually 12-9-12-9, but
      there
      > are also variations, such as 12-10-11-9, and 11-9-13-9.
      > >
      > > 42 is written a couple of times in the Alice books, but not as
      the
      > result of a count. In the Snark, it appears in Fit 1, Vs 7, L 1. The
      Baker
      > "had forty-two boxes all carefully packed" but "They were all left
      behind on
      > the beach." Vs 6, which is just behind Vs 7, has 42 syllables. One
      could
      > regard a syllable as a box of letters, or, for that matter, as a
      letter-box.
      > I don't believe that the words, as contrasted with the syllables, of
      any of
      > the verses sum to 42, for there are never more than 38 words in a line
      of
      > verse of the Snark.
      > >
      > > I am not sure if the above numbers and sums are exactly right.
      > Possibly this is upsetting.
      > >
      >

      3a.

      Re: Cricket

      Posted by: "Keith" keith@writerman. org.uk   krsheppard

      Sun May 30, 2010 8:47 am (PDT)



      A quick search of the text confirms my belief that the word "Cricket" does not appear in either of Carroll's Alice books. I don't recall any oblique references to it either. I have neither the means nor the motivation to check the rest of his writings (although I recall he did write a treatise on a better way to organise tennis tournaments) .

      If you want to see Alice get involved in a game of cricket, you could always read my book (Wonderland Revisited and the Games Alice Played There). Go on, you know you want to ;) I can confirm there is definitely cricket in that.

      Keith

      3b.

      Re: Cricket

      Posted by: "tim" lovetoloveyou@ hotmail.co. uk   timm_collins2002

      Sun May 30, 2010 9:10 am (PDT)




      A BIT surprising, I would have thought cricket was a pretty
      major sport at Oxford back then..... perhaps, like football, it was
      a little too manly and butch for Lewis
      croquet is far more feminine and genteel !

      To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      From: keith@writerman. org.uk
      Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 15:46:56 +0000
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Cricket

      A quick search of the text confirms my belief that the word "Cricket" does not appear in either of Carroll's Alice books. I don't recall any oblique references to it either. I have neither the means nor the motivation to check the rest of his writings (although I recall he did write a treatise on a better way to organise tennis tournaments) .

      If you want to see Alice get involved in a game of cricket, you could always read my book (Wonderland Revisited and the Games Alice Played There). Go on, you know you want to ;) I can confirm there is definitely cricket in that.

      Keith


      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/
      We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now
      3c.

      Re: Cricket

      Posted by: "Keith" keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk   keith_alan_wright

      Sun May 30, 2010 10:16 am (PDT)



      Keith,

      Alice Liddell certainly knew about cricket! Arthur Ridley, Hamps. & Middlesex cricketer, was best man at her wedding. Reginald, her husband, played at county level and Cuffnell's hosted prestigious cricket matches.

      Keith W

      From: tim
      Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:09 PM
      To: lewis carroll yahoo
      Subject: RE: [lewiscarroll] Re: Cricket

      A BIT surprising, I would have thought cricket was a pretty
      major sport at Oxford back then..... perhaps, like football, it was
      a little too manly and butch for Lewis
      croquet is far more feminine and genteel !

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      From: keith@writerman. org.uk
      Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 15:46:56 +0000
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Cricket

      A quick search of the text confirms my belief that the word "Cricket" does not appear in either of Carroll's Alice books. I don't recall any oblique references to it either. I have neither the means nor the motivation to check the rest of his writings (although I recall he did write a treatise on a better way to organise tennis tournaments) .

      If you want to see Alice get involved in a game of cricket, you could always read my book (Wonderland Revisited and the Games Alice Played There). Go on, you know you want to ;) I can confirm there is definitely cricket in that.

      Keith

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      Get a new e-mail account with Hotmail – Free. Sign-up now.

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2906 - Release Date: 05/30/10 10:21:00

      3d.

      Re: Cricket

      Posted by: "Mike" mikeindex2001@ yahoo.com   mikeindex2001

      Sun May 30, 2010 10:17 am (PDT)



      Tim,

      Actually Dodgson does seem to have been quite interested in cricket as a young man, at least as a spectator: at seventeen, writing home from Rugby School, he asks "are my two pictures of cricketing framed yet?", and later, at Oxford, his diary records a few instances of his watching matches:
      21 June 1855: "went…to Lord's where I stayed to the end of the first innings of Cambridge (139) and to see Oxford in".
      17 May 1856: "…we went down afterwards and saw the end of the Ch. Ch. And All England match. We were beaten in one innings, with about 50 runs to spare".
      19 May 1856: "Went down with Sandford to see the Oxford and Marylebone match".

      Does this help?

      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, tim <lovetoloveyou@ ...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > A BIT surprising, I would have thought cricket was a pretty
      > major sport at Oxford back then..... perhaps, like football, it was
      > a little too manly and butch for Lewis
      > croquet is far more feminine and genteel !
      >
      > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      > From: keith@...
      > Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 15:46:56 +0000
      > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Cricket
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > A quick search of the text confirms my belief that the word "Cricket" does not appear in either of Carroll's Alice books. I don't recall any oblique references to it either. I have neither the means nor the motivation to check the rest of his writings (although I recall he did write a treatise on a better way to organise tennis tournaments) .
      >
      >
      >
      > If you want to see Alice get involved in a game of cricket, you could always read my book (Wonderland Revisited and the Games Alice Played There). Go on, you know you want to ;) I can confirm there is definitely cricket in that.
      >
      >
      >
      > Keith
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/
      > We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now
      >

      3e.

      Re: Cricket

      Posted by: "Keith" keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk   keith_alan_wright

      Sun May 30, 2010 11:49 am (PDT)



      Mike,

      he did say once that he was allowed to bowl and that even if the ball had gone far enough the umpire would have called it wide.

      Keith W

      From: Mike
      Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:17 PM
      To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Cricket

      Tim,

      Actually Dodgson does seem to have been quite interested in cricket as a young man, at least as a spectator: at seventeen, writing home from Rugby School, he asks "are my two pictures of cricketing framed yet?", and later, at Oxford, his diary records a few instances of his watching matches:
      21 June 1855: "went.to Lord's where I stayed to the end of the first innings of Cambridge (139) and to see Oxford in".
      17 May 1856: ".we went down afterwards and saw the end of the Ch. Ch. And All England match. We were beaten in one innings, with about 50 runs to spare".
      19 May 1856: "Went down with Sandford to see the Oxford and Marylebone match".

      Does this help?

      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, tim <lovetoloveyou@ ...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > A BIT surprising, I would have thought cricket was a pretty
      > major sport at Oxford back then..... perhaps, like football, it was
      > a little too manly and butch for Lewis
      > croquet is far more feminine and genteel !
      >
      > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      > From: keith@...
      > Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 15:46:56 +0000
      > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Cricket
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > A quick search of the text confirms my belief that the word "Cricket" does not appear in either of Carroll's Alice books. I don't recall any oblique references to it either. I have neither the means nor the motivation to check the rest of his writings (although I recall he did write a treatise on a better way to organise tennis tournaments) .
      >
      >
      >
      > If you want to see Alice get involved in a game of cricket, you could always read my book (Wonderland Revisi

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.