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Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: George MacDonald

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  • fernando soto
    Hi Deb, Thank you for the information. I have ordered this book and I will see how Page handled the very complicate narrative in Phantastes. If you read
    Message 1 of 51 , Nov 9, 2009
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      Hi Deb,

      Thank you for the information.  I have ordered this book and I will see how Page handled the very complicate narrative in Phantastes.

      If you read Docherty's book and my paper, you'll see that Carroll and MacDonald are playing a literary game with each other.  I have not done much work on the connections between Phantastes and L-G, but I have dug up a lot of material on the back and forth use of the same material in Phantastes, Wonderland, Sylvie and Bruno, and Lilith.  Mind you, theirs is not a passive borrowing, but a constant reworking of themes, symbols and characters.  By the sounds of it, they would discuss and critique each other's works.

      All best,


      From: Deb <haddoxeyes@...>
      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 7:50:40 AM
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: George MacDonald


      Hi Fernando,

      Thanks for your response. The edition I bought is: Phantastes. A Faerie Romance for Men and Women. Special Annotated Edition. Introduction and notes by Nick Page. Published in 2008 by Paternoster ISBN 9871842276150

      I am now about half-way through MacDonald's novel; I can see some of MacDonald's ideas echoed in the Alice books especially Through the Looking-Glass. The fluid dreamscape, the use of mirrors, the magic key, the red and white knights, talking plants, dragons... The character of Alice is like a younger version Anodos.

      I also think there is a connection to Lewis Carroll's lesser-known works, to his serious fairy poems and to "Sylvie and Bruno". Overall I think I prefer Lewis Carroll's style of writing.


      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, fernando soto <ferjsoto42@ ...> wrote:
      > Hi Deb,
      > Could you please forward the information on your annotated coy of Phantastes?
      > Yes, several people have written on the Carroll-MacDonald connection. For example, these are some of the studies on, or ones that mention, both men's connected writings: Nicholson,
      > Hubert. A Voyage to Wonderland,
      > London, W. Heinemann. 1947; Shaberman, R. B. ‘Lewis
      > Caroll and George MacDonald.’ Jabberwocky27. Summer 1976. 67-79; Docherty, John. The Literary Products of the
      > Lewis Carroll-George MacDonald Friendship, Lewiston, Queenston, Lampeter: Edwin Mellen Press. 1997; and my ‘Some Linguistic Moves in the Carroll-MacDonald “Literary Game.”’ North
      > Wind 18. 1999. 45-53. I know that William Raeperwrote a small paper on Jabberwocky sometime back. I am currently finishing my Ph.d. thesis on Carroll's and MacDonald's use of each other's texts and their common use of other literary references.
      > All best,
      > Fernando
      > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > From: Deb <haddoxeyes@ ...>
      > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 7:58:36 AM
      > Subject: [lewiscarroll] George MacDonald
      > Does anyone know if anything has been written that compares the writings of Charles Dodgson and George MacDonald. Today I bought an annotated copy of MacDonald's "Phantastes" and on perusal I was struck by some of the similarities. I know MacDonald and Dodgson were friends and Dodgson photographed the family a number of times, but I guess I am interested in the literary connectionss,

    • fernando soto
      Hi Keith, I doubt whether in my theorizing about Carroll s use of ambiguity I need to explain these references other than to say that ambiguity enters here
      Message 51 of 51 , Nov 23, 2009
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        Hi Keith,

        I doubt whether in my theorizing about Carroll's use of ambiguity I need to explain these references other than to say that ambiguity enters here too.  This is particularly apparent in the Nursery Alice Preface, where he conflates the categories "children" and "adults" or even "old people."

        It is quite different for those who theorize about Carroll's supposed lack of interest in children in his latter life.  Obviously they have to account for these "counterexamples," which certainly seem to point to Alice being a very special child indeed.  While I am not too concerned with the relationship between Carroll and Alice L., I am interested in his relationship with the meaningful aspects of the names "Alice," "Sylvie," "Bruno," Lottie Rix, etc.

        All best,


        From: Keith <keith@...>
        To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 4:17:28 AM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Etymology and Humpty


        he said exactly that in his letter to Alice re the Nursery Alice. Several of his child friends mentioned how he told them he thought of them still as children.
        Whether you believe him is of course up to you but whatever theorising you may do you need to explain these references.

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