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  • Melanie Benjamin
    Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I ve been hesitant to post as I m the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
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      Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
       
      My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
       
      (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

      Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
    • Keith
      Melanie, None of CLD s images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain. Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author s text is
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
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        Melanie,
         
        None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
         
        Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
         
        Keith

        Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

        Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
         
        My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
         
        (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

        Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

      • Melanie Benjamin
        Thanks - no worries, no text is ever quoted in the writing of my novels! I did, though, see some assertions that some of Dodgson s photographs were still
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
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          Thanks - no worries, no text is ever quoted in the writing of my novels!  I did, though, see some assertions that "some" of Dodgson's photographs were still protected by copyright, which is why I was wondering.
           
          Now, on to research that last photo....
           
          Melanie Benjamin
          ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Keith
          Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

          Melanie,
           
          None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
           
          Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
           
          Keith

          Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

          Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
           
          My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
           
          (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

          Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

        • Keith Sheppard
          Melanie Where is your novel being published - UK, USA or elsewhere? I have more than a passing interest as I am also intending to publish in Feb 2010 although
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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            Melanie

            Where is your novel being published - UK, USA or elsewhere? I have more than a passing interest as I am also intending to publish in Feb 2010 although my book is a straight pastiche of Carroll's Alice books.

            My plan is to catch the wave of publicity surrounding Tim Burton's film release scheduled for next May. I was wondering if that was the rationale behind your, or Random's, chosen publication date.

            Good luck with yours, anyway. Is it a first novel or are you a seasoned writer?

            (Another) Keith
          • Melanie Benjamin
            HI Keith! I m a US author, so I m published through Random House US, although hopefully there will be foreign rights sales sometime soon. And while, fingers
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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              HI Keith!
               
              I'm a US author, so I'm published through Random House US, although hopefully there will be foreign rights sales sometime soon.  And while, fingers crossed, there will hopefully be a UK edition, the book is already up on Amazon UK - and I have no idea why; how there can be a UK edition when the US edition is available there?  I've never figured that out!)  I was unaware of the Tim Burton movie when I decided to write the book, but as soon as I did any research, of course, it came up.  So yes, I'd say it was 1) a motivating factor to glue my butt in my chair and write it ASAP! and 2) a factor in the pub date.  It's tough to sell books these days, and any kind of tie-in like this is very fortunate. 
               
              Who's your publisher?  Same questions - will it be available in the US?
               
              Soon I should have a website up (actually I'm looking for designers right now, as I think there are endless possibilities to tie in Alice imagery and links and lore, although I'm already writing my next historical novel, which will be quite different.  Still, I think a good designer could do so much with this.).
               
              And good luck to you, too!
               
              Melanie
               
              Melanie Benjamin
              ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 5:12 AM
              Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

              Melanie

              Where is your novel being published - UK, USA or elsewhere? I have more than a passing interest as I am also intending to publish in Feb 2010 although my book is a straight pastiche of Carroll's Alice books.

              My plan is to catch the wave of publicity surrounding Tim Burton's film release scheduled for next May. I was wondering if that was the rationale behind your, or Random's, chosen publication date.

              Good luck with yours, anyway. Is it a first novel or are you a seasoned writer?

              (Another) Keith

            • Keith Sheppard
              Melanie I m publishing through a small, independent, UK authors cooperative called Mockingbird. It s a new start up so you probably won t find any information
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                Melanie

                I'm publishing through a small, independent, UK authors' cooperative called Mockingbird. It's a new start up so you probably won't find any information on them on the web just yet. I understand they are planning to launch their first books probably late summer or autumn 2009. My Alice book is deliberately being held back until early 2010 to catch the film publicity.

                It will be available through Amazon so I expect that means it will at least be orderable in the US. Title is "Alice Wanders Down Stream" and there's an excerpt on my web site at http://www.Writerman.org.uk if you're interested.

                I'm with you on the designer front. I am rapidly discovering there's so much more to publishing a book than just writing the words. I'm currently looking for an illustrator.

                Keith
              • MITCHELL LOCKS
                I didn t know there were Dodgson photographs. Does anyone know of photographs of his cook? Mitchell Locks
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                  I didn't know there were Dodgson photographs. Does anyone know of photographs of his cook?
                  Mitchell Locks

                  --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Melanie Benjamin <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:

                  > From: Melanie Benjamin <melaniebenjamin@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                  > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:03 PM
                  >
                  >
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                  > Thanks - no worries, no
                  > text is ever quoted in the
                  > writing of my novels!  I did, though, see some
                  > assertions that "some" of
                  > Dodgson's photographs were still protected by
                  > copyright, which is why I was
                  > wondering.
                  >  
                  > Now, on to research that
                  > last
                  > photo....
                  >  
                  > Melanie
                  > Benjamin
                  > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random
                  > House, January
                  > 2010
                  >  
                  >  
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message
                  > -----
                  > From:
                  > Keith
                  >
                  > To: lewiscarroll@
                  > yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > Sent: Monday, June
                  > 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                  > Subject: Re:
                  > [lewiscarroll] Photo
                  > copyright info
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Melanie,
                  >  
                  > None of CLD's images
                  > are subject to copyright -
                  > all are in the public domain.
                  >  
                  > Books that assert
                  > copyright are lying to you -
                  > only the author's text is in fact able to be
                  > copyrighted. Just don't quote
                  > them is my advice!
                  >  
                  > Keith
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Melanie
                  > Benjamin
                  > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                  > To: lewiscarroll@
                  > yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright
                  > info
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi!  Longtime
                  > lurker, first time
                  > poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm
                  > the author of a historical
                  > novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with
                  > Random House.  I
                  > enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author
                  > of a novel about this
                  > beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. 
                  > Nevertheless, I come,
                  > hat humbly in hand, for help.
                  >  
                  > My publisher wants to
                  > use three photographs of
                  > Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the
                  > novel.  (Note - this is
                  > fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice
                  > from her childhood to
                  > the very end of her life.  So there are 3
                  > photographs we want to use -
                  > the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one
                  > Dodgson took of her, when
                  > she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only
                  > one of her as an
                  > elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper
                  > when she visited
                  > Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the
                  > public domain. 
                  > I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her
                  > when she was 18 is - but
                  > I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70
                  > years) would make it
                  > appear so.  Still, I need to be certain. 
                  > I'm still researching
                  > the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more
                  > about where I can find
                  > this information, I would appreciate it. 
                  >
                  >  
                  > (And yes, I'm aware
                  > of the Kate Roiphe novel that
                  > came out - also published by Random House, so they're
                  > very much aware -
                  > several years ago.  Mine is very different, and
                  > encompasses Alice's
                  > entire life, and is from her point of view
                  > entirely.  And also, I
                  > believe, is more sympathetic toward
                  > Carroll.)
                  >
                  > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random
                  > House, January 2010
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Melanie Benjamin
                  Interesting information that says many of Dodgson s photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                    Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                     
                    (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                     
                    Melanie Benjamin
                    ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Keith
                    Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                    Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                    Melanie,
                     
                    None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                     
                    Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                     
                    Keith

                    Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                    Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                    Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                     
                    My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
                     
                    (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

                    Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

                  • Melanie Benjamin
                    To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                      To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
                       
                      Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                       
                      Melanie Benjamin
                      ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                      Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                       
                      (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                       
                      Melanie Benjamin
                      ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Keith
                      Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                      Melanie,
                       
                      None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                       
                      Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                       
                      Keith

                      Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                      Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                       
                      My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
                       
                      (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

                      Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

                    • Keith
                      Melanie, they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                        Melanie,
                         
                        they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
                         
                        The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
                         
                        If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
                         
                        Keith
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         

                        Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                        To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
                         
                        Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                         
                        Melanie Benjamin
                        ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                        Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                         
                        (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                         
                        Melanie Benjamin
                        ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Keith
                        Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                        Melanie,
                         
                        None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                         
                        Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                         
                        Keith

                        Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                        Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                         
                        My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
                         
                        (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

                        Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

                      • Keith
                        If you want references to the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 being used it was in the LC Picture book published in 1899 page 210. It was also used by Becker
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
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                          If you want references to the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 being used it was in the LC Picture book published in 1899 page 210. It was also used by Becker Lennon in her biography of Lewis Carroll published in 1945, opposite page 194.
                           
                          Keith
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           

                          Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                          To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
                           
                          Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                           
                          Melanie Benjamin
                          ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                          Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                           
                          (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                           
                          Melanie Benjamin
                          ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Keith
                          Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                          Melanie,
                           
                          None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                           
                          Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                           
                          Keith

                          Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                          Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                           
                          My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
                           
                          (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

                          Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

                        • Melanie Benjamin
                          I know it seems as if I m being neurotic, but trust me - this is something I have to get 100% right, and be very particular about. It s the author s
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I know it seems as if I'm being neurotic, but trust me - this is something I have to get 100% right, and be very particular about.  It's the author's responsibility to secure the rights to anything like photographs and even lyrics to music, if that's used.  It's not the publisher's, so I'm the one who will pay if I use anything without securing permission.  And if there's any doubt, of course, I can't use the photograph.  So I have to be extremely careful, particularly since it appears, at least according to this book about copyright laws, that Dodgson's photographs are an unusual example of how someone who was very canny managed to protect many of the photographs until 2047.  Since many of them were in private collections until those books and exhibits came out in 2002, they qualify.  So it's up to me to determine if the photographs I want to use were or were not first published between 1978-2002 (the time period during which anything, regardless of age, could be published for the first time and come under protection until 2047).  
                             
                            Anyway, I think it's helpful for anyone interested in this to understand that, contrary to popular belief, not every photograph of his is in the public domain. 
                             
                            Thank you!
                             
                            Melanie
                             
                            Melanie Benjamin, ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House 2010 
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Keith
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:06 PM
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                            If you want references to the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 being used it was in the LC Picture book published in 1899 page 210. It was also used by Becker Lennon in her biography of Lewis Carroll published in 1945, opposite page 194.
                             
                            Keith
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             

                            Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                            To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain.  If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain.  The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected. 
                             
                            Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                             
                            Melanie Benjamin
                            ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                            Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect.  This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                             
                            (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                             
                            Melanie Benjamin
                            ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Keith
                            Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                            Melanie,
                             
                            None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                             
                            Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                             
                            Keith

                            Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                            Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info

                            Hi!  Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House.  I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome.  Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                             
                            My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel.  (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.)  The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life.  So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia.  I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain.  I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so.  Still, I need to be certain.  I'm still researching the later photograph.  If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it. 
                             
                            (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago.  Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely.  And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)

                            Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010

                          • mahendra373
                            Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.

                              The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.

                              BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.





                              --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Melanie,
                              >
                              > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
                              >
                              > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
                              >
                              > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
                              >
                              > Keith
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Melanie Benjamin
                              > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
                              >
                              > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                              >
                              > Melanie Benjamin
                              > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Melanie Benjamin
                              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                              > http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgson+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHjOenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA22,M1
                              >
                              > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                              >
                              > Melanie Benjamin
                              > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Keith
                              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Melanie,
                              >
                              > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                              >
                              > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                              >
                              > Keith
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Melanie Benjamin
                              > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                              > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                              >
                              > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
                              >
                              > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
                              >
                              > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                              >
                            • Melanie Benjamin
                              See, this isn t correct. It s the common misconception. If you look at it as the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes. You re correct -
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                See, this isn't correct.  It's the common misconception.  If you look at it as the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes.  You're correct - anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain.  However.  Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently, and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were not "published."  Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain.  However, the loophole in the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it and protect the rights through 2047.  If the owner did not, then it, too, fell into public domain.  And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
                                 
                                This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide."  The latter book specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
                                 
                                Melanie
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
                                Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

                                Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.

                                The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.

                                BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.

                                --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Melanie,
                                >
                                > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
                                >
                                > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
                                >
                                > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
                                >
                                > Keith
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                                > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
                                >
                                > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                                >
                                > Melanie Benjamin
                                > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                                > http://books. google.com/ books?id= 6y-QVFerLTMC& pg=PA22&lpg= PA22&dq=Charles+ Dodgson+photogra phs+in+public+ domain&source= bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2 b&sig=TPe- FEHSngHwepMNlIHj OenX5po&hl= en&ei=tG4lStP1K9 _elQf1w6nYBw& sa=X&oi=book_ result&ct= result&resnum= 1#PPA22,M1
                                >
                                > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                                >
                                > Melanie Benjamin
                                > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Keith
                                > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Melanie,
                                >
                                > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                                >
                                > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                                >
                                > Keith
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                                > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                                >
                                > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
                                >
                                > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
                                >
                                > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                >

                              • mahendra373
                                I understand your point ... assuming that the persons who published the CLD photos (2002 was it?) were the designated CLD estate. I were you, if it s worth the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 2, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I understand your point ... assuming that the persons who published the CLD photos (2002 was it?) were the designated CLD estate.

                                  I were you, if it's worth the money, I would consult a specialized attorney. And if the 2002 publishers were the CLD estate, it may not be as expensive as you think.


                                  --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > See, this isn't correct. It's the common misconception. If you look at it as the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes. You're correct - anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain. However. Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently, and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were not "published." Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain. However, the loophole in the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it and protect the rights through 2047. If the owner did not, then it, too, fell into public domain. And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
                                  >
                                  > This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide." The latter book specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
                                  >
                                  > Melanie
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: mahendra373
                                  > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
                                  > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.
                                  >
                                  > The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.
                                  >
                                  > BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.
                                  >
                                  > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Melanie,
                                  > >
                                  > > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
                                  > >
                                  > > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
                                  > >
                                  > > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
                                  > >
                                  > > Keith
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                                  > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
                                  > >
                                  > > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                                  > >
                                  > > Melanie Benjamin
                                  > > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                  > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                                  > > http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgson+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHjOenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA22,M1
                                  > >
                                  > > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                                  > >
                                  > > Melanie Benjamin
                                  > > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Keith
                                  > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Melanie,
                                  > >
                                  > > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                                  > >
                                  > > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                                  > >
                                  > > Keith
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                  > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                                  > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                                  > >
                                  > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
                                  > >
                                  > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
                                  > >
                                  > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • oldjoesoap
                                  Melanie, I would suggest that it might set your mind at rest if you were to contact the Pierpont Morgan Library in New York and ask them for a good quality
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 3, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Melanie,

                                    I would suggest that it might set your mind at rest if you were to contact the Pierpont Morgan Library in New York and ask them for a good quality digital image of 'Alice at 18' and their permission to use it in your book. They own one of five known original prints of this photograph. They also own one of ten known prints of 'The Beggar Maid' (uncoloured) so you could try them for this as well. I think we would all be interested to know how they respond.

                                    J


                                    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > See, this isn't correct. It's the common misconception. If you look at it as the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes. You're correct - anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain. However. Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently, and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were not "published." Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain. However, the loophole in the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it and protect the rights through 2047. If the owner did not, then it, too, fell into public domain. And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
                                    >
                                    > This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide." The latter book specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
                                    >
                                    > Melanie
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: mahendra373
                                    > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
                                    > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.
                                    >
                                    > The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.
                                    >
                                    > BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.
                                    >
                                    > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Melanie,
                                    > >
                                    > > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
                                    > >
                                    > > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
                                    > >
                                    > > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
                                    > >
                                    > > Keith
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                                    > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
                                    > >
                                    > > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                                    > >
                                    > > Melanie Benjamin
                                    > > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                    > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                                    > > http://books.google.com/books?id=6y-QVFerLTMC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Charles+Dodgson+photographs+in+public+domain&source=bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2b&sig=TPe-FEHSngHwepMNlIHjOenX5po&hl=en&ei=tG4lStP1K9_elQf1w6nYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA22,M1
                                    > >
                                    > > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                                    > >
                                    > > Melanie Benjamin
                                    > > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Keith
                                    > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Melanie,
                                    > >
                                    > > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                                    > >
                                    > > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                                    > >
                                    > > Keith
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                    > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                                    > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                                    > >
                                    > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
                                    > >
                                    > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
                                    > >
                                    > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Melanie Benjamin
                                    That s a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 3, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      That's a good idea.  I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site.  (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.) 
                                       
                                      The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image.  However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.   
                                       
                                      It all seems so very simple, at first glance.  Of course, nothing ever is!   
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:39 PM
                                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

                                      Melanie,

                                      I would suggest that it might set your mind at rest if you were to contact the Pierpont Morgan Library in New York and ask them for a good quality digital image of 'Alice at 18' and their permission to use it in your book. They own one of five known original prints of this photograph. They also own one of ten known prints of 'The Beggar Maid' (uncoloured) so you could try them for this as well. I think we would all be interested to know how they respond.

                                      J

                                      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > See, this isn't correct. It's the common misconception. If you look at it as the life of the author/artist plus 70 years only, yes. You're correct - anything he has written or photographed is in the public domain. However. Since his photography, on the whole, was really only discovered more recently, and many of the photographs remained in private collections, many of them were not "published." Yes, anything used in the early biographies, or published in any form prior to 1978, is definitely public domain. However, the loophole in the US copyright law is that if a work, even if it had been created 200 years ago, never was published prior to 1978, the owner had until 2002 to publish it and protect the rights through 2047. If the owner did not, then it, too, fell into public domain. And Carroll's executors, apparently, got busy and gathered up many of these photographs previously held privately, published them prior to the end of 2002 - and now they are protected through 2047.
                                      >
                                      > This is the most definite information I've found, both on sites that spell out copyright law, and the book, "Permissions, A Survival Guide." The latter book specifically cites the Carroll photographs as an example of someone being very canny in securing rights during the grace period of 1978-2002.
                                      >
                                      > Melanie
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: mahendra373
                                      > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:28 PM
                                      > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Keith is correct. CLD is entirely public domain world-wide owing to time elapsed since death date. The date of any source from which you pull your image is immaterial since only CLD held the copyright. Only CLD could ever hold a copyright to any image or text, if in theory you could spirit away a museum's print or neg of one his photos, you can reproduce it as much as you like.
                                      >
                                      > The real problem for you will be obtaining good quality prints to use for book (I assume) reproduction. That does not involve copyright, merely negotiation to reproduce someone's reproduction of a public domain image.
                                      >
                                      > BTW, be careful, UK/Canada/European vs US copyrights can vary. It's the iron fist of Mickey Mouse that's responsible for that.
                                      >
                                      > --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "Keith" <keith@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Melanie,
                                      > >
                                      > > they are kidding you! Any print of a photo in an album is simply that, a print, and as such does not convey copyright to the receiver of the print. If I have a print of the Mona Lisa - does that convey any copyright to me? I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't.
                                      > >
                                      > > The images that were published in 2002 were from albums in the USA and the universities there did not have copyright over the images so cannot claim such now. If copyright had existed it would have rested with the Dodgson family and therefore the universities should not have included them in books as they were in breach of the copyright rules they are now apparently trying to foister onto others! I took this up with the curator at the National Museum of Photography and they concur, no copyright exists over any of CLD's images. If anyone has a print and it is unique such that they wish to retain the image solely for themselves then the only course of action is to lock it in a safe.
                                      > >
                                      > > If it is any help the image of Alice Liddell aged 18 was published in books long before 2002.
                                      > >
                                      > > Keith
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                      > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:38 PM
                                      > > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > To clarify - after re-reading more carefully - if any of his photographs were not published prior to 2002, and were included in the published works of that year, they are not in the public domain. If the photographs were published earlier - for example, the famous one of Alice Liddell as the beggar girl was - they are in the public domain. The point is that when those 2 collections of his photographs were published in 2002, they consisted of many photographs that had not been published before, and so those photographs are now protected.
                                      > >
                                      > > Which means I have no idea whether or not the one of 18-year-old Alice Liddell is protected, now!
                                      > >
                                      > > Melanie Benjamin
                                      > > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                      > > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:30 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Interesting information that says many of Dodgson's photographs are not in the public domain, having been republished prior to the end of 2002, when the newest copyright laws (life of artist plus 70 years, or until 2002, whichever came first, for many older artists) too effect. This says that most of them, then, are still protected by his executors -
                                      > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= 6y-QVFerLTMC& pg=PA22&lpg= PA22&dq=Charles+ Dodgson+photogra phs+in+public+ domain&source= bl&ots=GZuFGKQc2 b&sig=TPe- FEHSngHwepMNlIHj OenX5po&hl= en&ei=tG4lStP1K9 _elQf1w6nYBw& sa=X&oi=book_ result&ct= result&resnum= 1#PPA22,M1
                                      > >
                                      > > (Hope this link works; it's to a page in a book available on Google Search called "Permissions, a survival guide."
                                      > >
                                      > > Melanie Benjamin
                                      > > ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, 2010
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Keith
                                      > > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:38 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Melanie,
                                      > >
                                      > > None of CLD's images are subject to copyright - all are in the public domain.
                                      > >
                                      > > Books that assert copyright are lying to you - only the author's text is in fact able to be copyrighted. Just don't quote them is my advice!
                                      > >
                                      > > Keith
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                      > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                                      > > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                                      > >
                                      > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
                                      > >
                                      > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
                                      > >
                                      > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                      > >
                                      >

                                    • oldjoesoap
                                      Melanie, Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC s centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Melanie,

                                        Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

                                        http://rosenbach.pastperfect-online.com/32739cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=DFBF3F43-1203-476F-9728-987030537960;type=102

                                        J

                                        --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
                                        >
                                        > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
                                        >
                                        > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
                                        >
                                        >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                        > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                                        > > > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Melanie Benjamin
                                        Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself. It, too, is in a
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Joe, thank you - I knew of this photo, and in fact had found the collection it was in on this site, but had somehow missed the photo itself.  It, too, is in a collection at the Morgan Library as well, and I emailed them yesterday about it.  I'll email the Rosenbach site as well. 
                                           
                                          I will have quite a few people to thank from this site, in the book!
                                           
                                          Melanie
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:17 AM
                                          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Photo copyright info

                                          Melanie,

                                          Several newspaper photos of Alice appeared in 1932 when she went to America to celebrate LC's centenary, her own eightieth birthday, and the seventieth anniversary of the first telling of Alice's Adventures Underground. She was only 79 when she received her honorary doctorate at Columbia University but 80 when she went to call on Abraham Rosenbach, to whom she had sold her little book - for what turned out to be a bargain price - in 1928. Dr. Rosenbach had some portrait photos taken in honour of her visit and they are now in the Rosenbach Museum in Philadelphia. You might want to take a look. I hope this url works!:

                                          http://rosenbach. pastperfect- online.com/ 32739cgi/ mweb.exe? request=record; id=DFBF3F43- 1203-476F- 9728-98703053796 0;type=102

                                          J

                                          --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "Melanie Benjamin" <melaniebenjamin@ ...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > That's a good idea. I did just contact the National Gallery in London, which also has a print of Alice at 18, asking the same thing - how much they would charge for permission to use the image from their site. (I know they do charge; they made it clear that while the original photo is out of copyright, most copies and scans of the photograph, including the one on their site and in their collection, are not.)
                                          >
                                          > The beggar girl photo is available on Wikipedia Commons, so I thought I could use that image. However, Alice at 18 is not on that site.
                                          >
                                          > It all seems so very simple, at first glance. Of course, nothing ever is!
                                          >
                                          >> > > From: Melanie Benjamin
                                          > > > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:20 PM
                                          > > > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > > > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Photo copyright info
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster. I've been hesitant to post as I'm the author of a historical novel about Alice Liddell coming out in January with Random House. I enjoy reading the posts here, but know that as an author of a novel about this beloved heroine, I'm probably not very welcome. Nevertheless, I come, hat humbly in hand, for help.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > My publisher wants to use three photographs of Alice to separate the 3 separate sections of the novel. (Note - this is fiction, not a biography.) The novel follows Alice from her childhood to the very end of her life. So there are 3 photographs we want to use - the one of Alice as the beggar child; the last one Dodgson took of her, when she was a young woman (18, I believe); and then the only one of her as an elderly woman I have found, a photograph from a newspaper when she visited Columbia. I know the beggar child photo is in the public domain. I've not yet discovered whether or not the one of her when she was 18 is - but I know that copyright law (life of the author plus 70 years) would make it appear so. Still, I need to be certain. I'm still researching the later photograph. If anyone here knows more about where I can find this information, I would appreciate it.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > (And yes, I'm aware of the Kate Roiphe novel that came out - also published by Random House, so they're very much aware - several years ago. Mine is very different, and encompasses Alice's entire life, and is from her point of view entirely. And also, I believe, is more sympathetic toward Carroll.)
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Melanie Benjamin - ALICE I HAVE BEEN, Random House, January 2010
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >

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