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Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"

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  • John Tufail
    Hi Keith, As you know, there are two Marske s in the Cleveland/Teeside area.  And just to confuse things, the Dodgson family could have legitimately visited
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 1, 2008
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      Hi Keith,

       

      As you know, there are two Marske's in the Cleveland/Teeside area.  And just to confuse things, the Dodgson family could have legitimately visited both.  Marske-on-Sea is adjacent to Redcar, where, I beliee, the Dodgson's had some connections.

       

      However, my personal preference is for the other Marsk, which is fairly close to Croft and adjacent to the family seat of the Hutton family.  Anyone being prefered for the Coft living, would certainly have to make contact with the local landowner prior to accepting the living.  

       

      I would love more information on this visit as it has some importance, gien the date of the visit.

       

      Regards

       

      JT 



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Keith <keith@...>
      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 9:02:07 PM
      Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"

      Joe,
       
      Emma Vine - look in Jabberwocky Volume 24No. 1 Pages 3 - 19. However, the live in servants were not the only contenders, Phoebe Bostock and Mary Houghton could be on the list and they are just the ones we know about. There are also the family in Morphany Hall to consider, the mother there was fond of the Dodsgsaon tribe. Emma Vine was ten years older than CLD but that alone would not rule her out as a nurse in 1838 - a job she could easily have taken up at 13 or 14.
       
      The nurse would stay behind to look after the younger children when CLD was in Marke, which may be Marske by Richmond. The curate there may have helped him write the letter if he was in fact there. There is no evidence of course that 'Bun' was the nurse.
       
      Keith
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:34 PM
      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"

      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "jenny2write" <woolf@...> wrote:
      >
      > The first letter LC is known to have written was to "Bun". This is
      said
      > by Cohen to be his nurse, but he gives no idea who the nurse's real
      > name was. Also, there's no suggestion as to who was with CLD
      at "Marke"
      > if it wasn't his nurse - I mean, who helped him write the letter.
      > Puzzling. Cohen is usually so thorough with his notes.
      >
      The first census we have was made in the spring of 1841. The family
      are living at Daresbury. By this time, Charles was 9 and didn't need
      a nurse. Little "Longley" was only 2 and did. There are four female
      servants. One is called Emma Vine. She is 20. Her duties are not
      described. The next census was taken in 1851. By this time the
      family have moved to Croft. The only one of the Daresbury servants
      still with the family is Emma Vine. Now 29, she is described as a
      nurse! Her birthplace is given as London. Vine? Bun? Not
      impossible. The only worry is her age. She would only have been 11
      when Charles was born. I suppose she could have come when Charles
      was 3. How did she get from London to Cheshire? I am going to find
      out a bit more about her.
      J


    • jenny2write
      Since you say there is no evidence of who Bun was, could not Bun have been a childish effort to say Mam ? (he called his mother Mama ). It s just a
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 1, 2008
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        Since you say there is no evidence of who "Bun" was, could not "Bun"
        have been a childish effort to say "Mam"? (he called his
        mother "Mama"). It's just a thought that perhaps this letter may have
        been written CLD was away from home and in fact he was writing to his
        mother not to a nurse. One would expect a nurse to accompany him.
        Mother on the other hand had all kinds of responsibilities at home and
        would not always accompany all her children.

        He may I suppose have been sent away while his mother was confined but
        I don't remember offhand which child that might have been.

        In which case the nurse or a relative at "Marke" may have helped him
        write the letter by guiding his hand.


        The "horn of hair" must have been because his curly hair went into a
        twist when he was a little child. Once again, perhaps the kind of thing
        a mother might fondly notice and mention, more than a nurse who was
        just doing her job - although one hopes the nurse did love him. It was
        by no means always the case, though, that nurses loved their charges.

        Jenny
      • Keith
        John, I ve looked at the Redcar idea but I can find no records of any obvious relatives living there i.e. Dodgsons or Lutwidges. The only reference to the
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 1, 2008
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          John,
           
          I've looked at the Redcar idea but I can find no records of any obvious relatives living there i.e. Dodgsons or Lutwidges. The only reference to the family staying at Redcar comes from the Darlington and Stockton Telegraph which, when it reported the death of his father, advised that some of the family were staying at Redcar but that they were not recalled before the death because it had happened so unexpectedly. Now they may have been with relatives but equally they may have been in lodgings. Redcar had pretentions in Victorian days and Newcomen Terrace and its like were built to house the influx of holiday makers seeking the ozone. (Newcomen Terrace was 'Dunkirk' in the film Atonement.) The railway arrived at Redcar in 1846 and it was on the direct line from Darlington to Saltburn which stopped at Redcar.
           
          The other contender for Marke is Marske off Swaledale. Here the vicar was Tate of Richmond School fame. He however had a house in Richmond being headmaster of the grammar school so the rectory at Marske housed the curate at times and being a large place it could accommodate any visitors as well. It can be seen in Rupert Harte Davies 70th birthday bash as a substantial stone built house. In 1836 Longley was appointed Bishop of Ripon and he in turn appointed Dodgson's father as examining chaplain, which meant he had to inspect the candidates for appointments. Whether this meant a stay at Marske is not known but it is a faint possibility. I doubt if it will ever be resolved as the evidence is not there either in the Dodgson records or in the Hutton archives, Hutton being the squire of Marske near Richmond.
           
          Keith
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 10:48 PM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"

          Hi Keith,

           

          As you know, there are two Marske's in the Cleveland/Teeside area.  And just to confuse things, the Dodgson family could have legitimately visited both.  Marske-on-Sea is adjacent to Redcar, where, I beliee, the Dodgson's had some connections.

           

          However, my personal preference is for the other Marsk, which is fairly close to Croft and adjacent to the family seat of the Hutton family.  Anyone being prefered for the Coft living, would certainly have to make contact with the local landowner prior to accepting the living.  

           

          I would love more information on this visit as it has some importance, gien the date of the visit.

           

          Regards

           

          JT 



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Keith <keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk>
          To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 9:02:07 PM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"

          Joe,
           
          Emma Vine - look in Jabberwocky Volume 24No. 1 Pages 3 - 19. However, the live in servants were not the only contenders, Phoebe Bostock and Mary Houghton could be on the list and they are just the ones we know about. There are also the family in Morphany Hall to consider, the mother there was fond of the Dodsgsaon tribe. Emma Vine was ten years older than CLD but that alone would not rule her out as a nurse in 1838 - a job she could easily have taken up at 13 or 14.
           
          The nurse would stay behind to look after the younger children when CLD was in Marke, which may be Marske by Richmond. The curate there may have helped him write the letter if he was in fact there. There is no evidence of course that 'Bun' was the nurse.
           
          Keith
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:34 PM
          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"

          --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "jenny2write" <woolf@...> wrote:
          >
          > The first letter LC is known to have written was to "Bun". This is
          said
          > by Cohen to be his nurse, but he gives no idea who the nurse's real
          > name was. Also, there's no suggestion as to who was with CLD
          at "Marke"
          > if it wasn't his nurse - I mean, who helped him write the letter.
          > Puzzling. Cohen is usually so thorough with his notes.
          >
          The first census we have was made in the spring of 1841. The family
          are living at Daresbury. By this time, Charles was 9 and didn't need
          a nurse. Little "Longley" was only 2 and did. There are four female
          servants. One is called Emma Vine. She is 20. Her duties are not
          described. The next census was taken in 1851. By this time the
          family have moved to Croft. The only one of the Daresbury servants
          still with the family is Emma Vine. Now 29, she is described as a
          nurse! Her birthplace is given as London. Vine? Bun? Not
          impossible. The only worry is her age. She would only have been 11
          when Charles was born. I suppose she could have come when Charles
          was 3. How did she get from London to Cheshire? I am going to find
          out a bit more about her.
          J


        • tufail45
          Hi Keith, I whilheartedly agree with you. This does appear the logical place. Personally I think it s one long-lasting mystery cleared up. Thanks for all the
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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            Hi Keith,

            I whilheartedly agree with you. This does appear the logical place.
            Personally I think it's one long-lasting mystery cleared up. Thanks
            for all the effort you put in on this. I spent much time on the
            phone taking to both Church and secula archiists and got no further
            than you.

            One thing I didn't do though, was to contact the Hutton family to see
            if they have any records that might help.

            Regards

            JT

            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
            >
            > John,
            >
            > I've looked at the Redcar idea but I can find no records of any
            obvious relatives living there i.e. Dodgsons or Lutwidges. The only
            reference to the family staying at Redcar comes from the Darlington
            and Stockton Telegraph which, when it reported the death of his
            father, advised that some of the family were staying at Redcar but
            that they were not recalled before the death because it had happened
            so unexpectedly. Now they may have been with relatives but equally
            they may have been in lodgings. Redcar had pretentions in Victorian
            days and Newcomen Terrace and its like were built to house the influx
            of holiday makers seeking the ozone. (Newcomen Terrace was 'Dunkirk'
            in the film Atonement.) The railway arrived at Redcar in 1846 and it
            was on the direct line from Darlington to Saltburn which stopped at
            Redcar.
            >
            > The other contender for Marke is Marske off Swaledale. Here the
            vicar was Tate of Richmond School fame. He however had a house in
            Richmond being headmaster of the grammar school so the rectory at
            Marske housed the curate at times and being a large place it could
            accommodate any visitors as well. It can be seen in Rupert Harte
            Davies 70th birthday bash as a substantial stone built house. In 1836
            Longley was appointed Bishop of Ripon and he in turn appointed
            Dodgson's father as examining chaplain, which meant he had to inspect
            the candidates for appointments. Whether this meant a stay at Marske
            is not known but it is a faint possibility. I doubt if it will ever
            be resolved as the evidence is not there either in the Dodgson
            records or in the Hutton archives, Hutton being the squire of Marske
            near Richmond.
            >
            > Keith
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: John Tufail
            > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 10:48 PM
            > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Keith,
            >
            >
            >
            > As you know, there are two Marske's in the Cleveland/Teeside
            area. And just to confuse things, the Dodgson family could have
            legitimately visited both. Marske-on-Sea is adjacent to Redcar,
            where, I beliee, the Dodgson's had some connections.
            >
            >
            >
            > However, my personal preference is for the other Marsk, which is
            fairly close to Croft and adjacent to the family seat of the Hutton
            family. Anyone being prefered for the Coft living, would certainly
            have to make contact with the local landowner prior to accepting the
            living.
            >
            >
            >
            > I would love more information on this visit as it has some
            importance, gien the date of the visit.
            >
            >
            >
            > Regards
            >
            >
            >
            > JT
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Keith <keith@...>
            > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 9:02:07 PM
            > Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"
            >
            >
            >
            > Joe,
            >
            > Emma Vine - look in Jabberwocky Volume 24No. 1 Pages 3 - 19.
            However, the live in servants were not the only contenders, Phoebe
            Bostock and Mary Houghton could be on the list and they are just the
            ones we know about. There are also the family in Morphany Hall to
            consider, the mother there was fond of the Dodsgsaon tribe. Emma Vine
            was ten years older than CLD but that alone would not rule her out as
            a nurse in 1838 - a job she could easily have taken up at 13 or 14.
            >
            > The nurse would stay behind to look after the younger children
            when CLD was in Marke, which may be Marske by Richmond. The curate
            there may have helped him write the letter if he was in fact there.
            There is no evidence of course that 'Bun' was the nurse.
            >
            > Keith
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: oldjoesoap
            > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:34 PM
            > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"
            >
            >
            > --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "jenny2write" <woolf@>
            wrote:
            > >
            > > The first letter LC is known to have written was to "Bun".
            This is
            > said
            > > by Cohen to be his nurse, but he gives no idea who the
            nurse's real
            > > name was. Also, there's no suggestion as to who was with CLD
            > at "Marke"
            > > if it wasn't his nurse - I mean, who helped him write the
            letter.
            > > Puzzling. Cohen is usually so thorough with his notes.
            > >
            > The first census we have was made in the spring of 1841. The
            family
            > are living at Daresbury. By this time, Charles was 9 and didn't
            need
            > a nurse. Little "Longley" was only 2 and did. There are four
            female
            > servants. One is called Emma Vine. She is 20. Her duties are
            not
            > described. The next census was taken in 1851. By this time the
            > family have moved to Croft. The only one of the Daresbury
            servants
            > still with the family is Emma Vine. Now 29, she is described as
            a
            > nurse! Her birthplace is given as London. Vine? Bun? Not
            > impossible. The only worry is her age. She would only have been
            11
            > when Charles was born. I suppose she could have come when
            Charles
            > was 3. How did she get from London to Cheshire? I am going to
            find
            > out a bit more about her.
            > J
            >
          • tufail45
            Oh! By the way Keith. I m sure I ve read somewhere that the idea of The Walrus and the Carpenter was stimulated by the extremely long beach that fronts
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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              Oh!

              By the way Keith. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the idea of 'The
              Walrus and the Carpenter' was stimulated by the extremely long beach
              that fronts Redcar?
            • tufail45
              Oh! By the way Keith. I m sure I ve read somewhere that the idea of The Walrus and the Carpenter was stimulated by the extremely long beach that fronts
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Oh!

                By the way Keith. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the idea of 'The
                Walrus and the Carpenter' was stimulated by the extremely long beach
                that fronts Redcar?
              • tufail45
                Oh! By the way Keith. I m sure I ve read somewhere that the idea of The Walrus and the Carpenter was stimulated by the extremely long beach that fronts
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Oh!

                  By the way Keith. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the idea of 'The
                  Walrus and the Carpenter' was stimulated by the extremely long beach
                  that fronts Redcar?
                • tufail45
                  Oh! By the way Keith. I m sure I ve read somewhere that the idea of The Walrus and the Carpenter was stimulated by the extremely long beach that fronts
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Oh!

                    By the way Keith. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the idea of 'The
                    Walrus and the Carpenter' was stimulated by the extremely long beach
                    that fronts Redcar?
                  • tufail45
                    Oh! By the way Keith. I m sure I ve read somewhere that the idea of The Walrus and the Carpenter was stimulated by the extremely long beach that fronts
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Oh!

                      By the way Keith. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the idea of 'The
                      Walrus and the Carpenter' was stimulated by the extremely long beach
                      that fronts Redcar?
                    • tufail45
                      Oh! By the way Keith. I m sure I ve read somewhere that the idea of The Walrus and the Carpenter was stimulated by the extremely long beach that fronts
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Oh!

                        By the way Keith. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the idea of 'The
                        Walrus and the Carpenter' was stimulated by the extremely long beach
                        that fronts Redcar?
                      • Keith
                        John, not heard that one about Redcar beach! Another myth to add to the growing list. The beach is perhaps best seen in Atonement - Redcar often resembles a
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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                          John,
                           
                          not heard that one about Redcar beach! Another myth to add to the growing list.
                           
                          The beach is perhaps best seen in Atonement - Redcar often resembles a bombed out place nowadays which is presumably why the film makers went there! The beach was a beautiful sandy beach until 1955 when a storm took most of the sand away, it has never recovered its former glory. Many old coins, including guineas were found at that time. The town has always had to apologise for itself in living memory.
                           
                          There is no doubt CLD visited Redcar - he certainly went to a chess tournament there but I think it is stretching credibility too much to base the Walrus and the Carpenter there. The carpenter did however wear the head gear used by the Tyne and Wear carpenters!
                           
                          Keith
                           
                          PS as far as I can recall the Hutton papers contain nothing about any visitors in the 1830's. At that time the visit of a minor clergyman would be unlikely to rate high on John Hutton's list of interesting facts! I checked myself but it's a long time ago now so it's a bit hazy. Jane Hatcher has also looked and come up with nothing.
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: tufail45
                          Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:52 PM
                          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: "Bun"

                          Oh!

                          By the way Keith. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the idea of 'The
                          Walrus and the Carpenter' was stimulated by the extremely long beach
                          that fronts Redcar?

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