Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [lewiscarroll] anti feminist readings on carroll

Expand Messages
  • alka mishra
    hey Keith, Thanks for suggesting the article. Do u think there is an online edition of that journal? if yes do forward the link. alka ... Get the freedom to
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 1, 2008
      hey Keith,

      Thanks for suggesting the article. Do u think there is
      an online edition of that journal? if yes do forward
      the link.

      alka

      --- Keith <keith@...> wrote:

      > You could look in Jabberwocky, the Lewis Carroll
      > society magazine, Spring 1992, vol.21 no. 3, there
      > is an article there on LC and the rise of feminism.
      >
      > Keith
      >
      >
      > ---- Original Message -----
      > From: alkamishraa
      > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 12:23 PM
      > Subject: [lewiscarroll] anti feminist readings on
      > carroll
      >
      >
      > hey all,
      >
      > m working on a paper on childrens literature for
      > which i wanted a
      > bibliography of anti feminist allegations on
      > carroll .
      > do write in if you have info.
      > thanks
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203
      > - Release Date: 30/12/2007 11:27
      >



      Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. To know how, go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html
    • Keith
      As far as I am aware Jabberwocky is not on line. I cannot send you the article on the list as that would breach copyright in that I would be publishing it in a
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 1, 2008
        As far as I am aware Jabberwocky is not on line. I cannot send you the article on the list as that would breach copyright in that I would be publishing it in a public domain but I will copy it to you privately. Please quote the source if you use any of it. Jabberwocky volume 21 number 3. Summer 1992.
         
        I would urge caution though. There was an awful lot of twaddle published in the LC society magazine - I'd check your sources yourself rather than relying on published articles. The references may however be useful.
         
        Keith
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 11:35 AM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] anti feminist readings on carroll

        hey Keith,

        Thanks for suggesting the article. Do u think there is
        an online edition of that journal? if yes do forward
        the link.

        alka

        --- Keith <keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk> wrote:

        > You could look in Jabberwocky, the Lewis Carroll
        > society magazine, Spring 1992, vol.21 no. 3, there
        > is an article there on LC and the rise of feminism.
        >
        > Keith
        >
        >
        > ---- Original Message -----
        > From: alkamishraa
        > To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 12:23 PM
        > Subject: [lewiscarroll] anti feminist readings on
        > carroll
        >
        >
        > hey all,
        >
        > m working on a paper on childrens literature for
        > which i wanted a
        > bibliography of anti feminist allegations on
        > carroll .
        > do write in if you have info.
        > thanks
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1203
        > - Release Date: 30/12/2007 11:27
        >

        Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. To know how, go to http://help. yahoo.com/ l/in/yahoo/ mail/yahoomail/ tools/tools- 08.html


        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1205 - Release Date: 31/12/2007 15:32
      • Mikey
        Odd. My thoughts are pretty much the same as the others who have posted already. But then again, there was a woman (I forget the name) who wrote a book
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 1, 2008
          Odd. My thoughts are pretty much the same as the others who have
          posted already. But then again, there was a woman (I forget the name)
          who wrote a book called "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" (if memory
          serves) who suggested that CLD engaged in multiple chaotic adult
          relationships with women. I never read the book as I could never find
          a copy, and the general consensus seemed to be that it was a bunch of
          hokum, but in theory that might contain some sort of information on
          your particular subject. I really don't know the specifics of what it
          got into. Might be worth a look for you at any rate.

          - M

          --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "alkamishraa" <alkamishraa@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > hey all,
          >
          > m working on a paper on childrens literature for which i wanted a
          > bibliography of anti feminist allegations on carroll .
          > do write in if you have info.
          > thanks
          >
        • annoxford
          First, Happy New Year, all! Mike, Can I suggest that you search the archives of this list for more information on In the Shadow of the Dreamchild -- which
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 1, 2008
            First, Happy New Year, all!
            Mike,
            Can I suggest that you search the archives of this list for more information on "In the
            Shadow of the Dreamchild" -- which will provide more than one point of view.
            When new members join, I'm not sure how many do use the message archives. Not only do
            I find them interesting, but it saves a lot of time.
            AnnOxford
            group moderator


            --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Mikey" <Quemaqua@...> wrote:
            >
            > Odd. My thoughts are pretty much the same as the others who have
            > posted already. But then again, there was a woman (I forget the name)
            > who wrote a book called "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" (if memory
            > serves) who suggested that CLD engaged in multiple chaotic adult
            > relationships with women. I never read the book as I could never find
            > a copy, and the general consensus seemed to be that it was a bunch of
            > hokum, but in theory that might contain some sort of information on
            > your particular subject. I really don't know the specifics of what it
            > got into. Might be worth a look for you at any rate.
            >
            > - M
            >
            > --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "alkamishraa" <alkamishraa@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > hey all,
            > >
            > > m working on a paper on childrens literature for which i wanted a
            > > bibliography of anti feminist allegations on carroll .
            > > do write in if you have info.
            > > thanks
            > >
            >
          • mikeindex2001
            As Annie has said, there has been a great deal of discussion of Karoline Leach s In the Shadow of the Dreamchild here and you might well find it instructive
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 2, 2008
              As Annie has said, there has been a great deal of discussion of
              Karoline Leach's "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" here and you might
              well find it instructive to search the archives.

              There is also a fair bit of online info about the book, notably at its
              own website:

              http://shadowofthedreamchild.wild-reality.net

              and in various sections of the "Looking for Lewis Carroll" website at

              http://www.lewiscarroll.cc

              Having said that, the best you can do really is read the book for
              yourself, not only because there's no other way you can comment
              authoritatively on it, but also because I think you'll find it
              instructive, entertaining, superbly written and very probably
              surprising in view of the misapprehensions you seem to have about it.

              I don't know what circles you have been moving in to pick up
              the `general consensus' that you have. The large majority of the
              book's print reviews ranged from pretty good to outstanding - you can
              see a selection at
              http://shadowofthedreamchild.wild-reality.net/shadowreviews.html; and
              the few hostile ones have been, I think without exception, crammed with
              misrepresentations – you can the majority of read these at
              http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/nohow.html
              and commentaries on them at http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/shockofnew.html
              and http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/rackinreply.html

              Just to correct one misapprehension, Leach does not propose that
              CLD `engaged in multiple chaotic adult relationships with women'. She
              suggests that the frantic and unexplained guilt expressed in CLD's
              diary for a brief period may have had its roots in a (single) sexual
              affair and proposes a possible partner; she later discusses his
              relationship with Constance Burch and notes that it was certainly
              consistent with an affair. And that's it – she does NOT say (as
              someone once put it here) that CLD was `bonking everyone he knew over
              the age of sixteen' – nor, whatever you may have heard, that he didn't
              really like children and only pretended to so he could get their
              mothers into bed.

              Seriously, read it yourself – it seems to be unavailable from Amazon or
              B&N at the moment, I can't think why, but it's still in print so a good
              bookshop or library should be able to order a copy.




              >
              > Odd. My thoughts are pretty much the same as the others who have
              > posted already. But then again, there was a woman (I forget the name)
              > who wrote a book called "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" (if memory
              > serves) who suggested that CLD engaged in multiple chaotic adult
              > relationships with women. I never read the book as I could never find
              > a copy, and the general consensus seemed to be that it was a bunch of
              > hokum, but in theory that might contain some sort of information on
              > your particular subject. I really don't know the specifics of what it
              > got into. Might be worth a look for you at any rate.
              >
              > - M
              >
            • Amirouche Moktefi
              Hi, Happy new year 2008. Though I found Keith severe concerning the Lewis Carroll Society journal, I agree hightly with him on the necessity to use and read
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 2, 2008
                Hi,
                Happy new year 2008.
                Though I found Keith severe concerning the Lewis Carroll Society
                journal, I agree hightly with him on the necessity to use and read
                original material in addition to criticism rather than just relying on
                existing works. May I suggest to look at Jenny Woolf's recent
                interesting work on Carroll's bank account. There are some interesting
                information on Carroll contribution to some "woman" (not to say
                feminist) associations. It is also probably worth to read Carroll's
                pamphlet on "Resident woman students" (1896) which you can find in the
                collection of Carroll's Oxford pamhlets edited by Edward Wakeling (1993).
                Best,
                Amirouche




                Keith a écrit :
                >
                > As far as I am aware Jabberwocky is not on line. I cannot send you the
                > article on the list as that would breach copyright in that I would be
                > publishing it in a public domain but I will copy it to you privately.
                > Please quote the source if you use any of it. Jabberwocky volume 21
                > number 3. Summer 1992.
                >
                > I would urge caution though. There was an awful lot of twaddle
                > published in the LC society magazine - I'd check your sources yourself
                > rather than relying on published articles. The references may however
                > be useful.
                >
                > Keith
                >
                >
                >
              • Keith
                I consider it essential to check the sources of anything upon which a conclusion is to be drawn. All to easily one can adopt the party line which then
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 2, 2008
                  I consider it essential to check the sources of anything upon which a conclusion is to be drawn. All to easily one can adopt the 'party line' which then colours your research and eventual conclusions.
                   
                  I don't think the LC society are any more guilty of publishing twaddle than any other literary society. People make wild guesses then look for evidence to support their theory whilst ignoring anything which is counter to that theory. They then write books and articles expounding their 'mythical' point of view,  The number of obscure articles is quite high in any journal, it's the name of the game. I dare say if you are lucky enough to come across a first edition of 'AIW' then it would be of great interest to you to know that you can prove it by knowing that on a certain page in a certain line of the first edition a comma was missed out - for the rest of us we have better things to do.
                   
                  Lewis Carroll wrote a few letters about ladies as students. In one such letter, he saw them as aspiring to greater heights than their domestic cousins but was wary that over exertion of their brains could lead to mental collapse. Now how that is interpreted is the point when it comes to feminism. He was certainly conservative in his attitudes in some respect but modern in that he saw girls as capable of aspiring to do much more than they were allowed to by the system. The facts are quite easily sorted out - the conclusions are not so easy to spell out. As usual CLD was contradictory - at least he was from a 21st century perspective!
                   
                  Keith
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 2:01 PM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] anti feminist readings on carroll

                  Hi,
                  Happy new year 2008.
                  Though I found Keith severe concerning the Lewis Carroll Society
                  journal, I agree hightly with him on the necessity to use and read
                  original material in addition to criticism rather than just relying on
                  existing works. May I suggest to look at Jenny Woolf's recent
                  interesting work on Carroll's bank account. There are some interesting
                  information on Carroll contribution to some "woman" (not to say
                  feminist) associations. It is also probably worth to read Carroll's
                  pamphlet on "Resident woman students" (1896) which you can find in the
                  collection of Carroll's Oxford pamhlets edited by Edward Wakeling (1993).
                  Best,
                  Amirouche


                  Keith a écrit :
                  >
                  > As far as I am aware Jabberwocky is not on line. I cannot send you the
                  > article on the list as that would breach copyright in that I would be
                  > publishing it in a public domain but I will copy it to you privately.
                  > Please quote the source if you use any of it. Jabberwocky volume 21
                  > number 3. Summer 1992.
                  >
                  > I would urge caution though. There was an awful lot of twaddle
                  > published in the LC society magazine - I'd check your sources yourself
                  > rather than relying on published articles. The references may however
                  > be useful.
                  >
                  > Keith
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 01/01/2008 12:09
                • Mikey
                  Most certainly. I haven t had the time to dig through the archives for information on all the topics I d like to, but I certainly hope to make use of it
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 2, 2008
                    Most certainly. I haven't had the time to dig through the archives
                    for information on all the topics I'd like to, but I certainly hope to
                    make use of it before too long. Work and many multiple hobbies/side
                    jobs keep me very busy, I never have the time that I'd love to devote
                    to Carroll studies. If I live to see retirement, perhaps. ;)

                    - M

                    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "annoxford" <annoxford@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > First, Happy New Year, all!
                    > Mike,
                    > Can I suggest that you search the archives of this list for more
                    information on "In the
                    > Shadow of the Dreamchild" -- which will provide more than one point
                    of view.
                    > When new members join, I'm not sure how many do use the message
                    archives. Not only do
                    > I find them interesting, but it saves a lot of time.
                    > AnnOxford
                    > group moderator
                  • Mikey
                    Thank you for the information. My mention of the book was really just an offhand comment, and probably shouldn t have been made given my obvious lack of
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 2, 2008
                      Thank you for the information. My mention of the book was really just
                      an offhand comment, and probably shouldn't have been made given my
                      obvious lack of understanding where the book and its subject are
                      concerned. In the future I'll attempt to be less of a clod. But I
                      appreciate the information and will have to get back to trying to find
                      a copy of the book. For whatever reason I haven't had luck at my
                      usual store locations, and the internet as you saw hasn't been as
                      reliable as it generally is. I'm as curious to read it myself as I am
                      to read what people think. The limited number of people I've talked
                      to about it thought it was an intelligent book, simply lacking enough
                      facts to prove the things it proposed, hence my earlier statement.
                      It's been obvious to me for some time that I need to widen my rather
                      small circle, which is partially what I hoped to do by joining this
                      group -- mission accomplished, it seems!

                      - M

                      --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "mikeindex2001"
                      <mikeindex2001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > As Annie has said, there has been a great deal of discussion of
                      > Karoline Leach's "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" here and you might
                      > well find it instructive to search the archives.
                      >
                      > There is also a fair bit of online info about the book, notably at its
                      > own website:
                      >
                      > http://shadowofthedreamchild.wild-reality.net
                      >
                      > and in various sections of the "Looking for Lewis Carroll" website at
                      >
                      > http://www.lewiscarroll.cc
                      >
                      > Having said that, the best you can do really is read the book for
                      > yourself, not only because there's no other way you can comment
                      > authoritatively on it, but also because I think you'll find it
                      > instructive, entertaining, superbly written and very probably
                      > surprising in view of the misapprehensions you seem to have about it.
                      >
                      > I don't know what circles you have been moving in to pick up
                      > the `general consensus' that you have. The large majority of the
                      > book's print reviews ranged from pretty good to outstanding - you can
                      > see a selection at
                      > http://shadowofthedreamchild.wild-reality.net/shadowreviews.html; and
                      > the few hostile ones have been, I think without exception, crammed with
                      > misrepresentations – you can the majority of read these at
                      > http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/nohow.html
                      > and commentaries on them at http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/shockofnew.html
                      > and http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/rackinreply.html
                      >
                      > Just to correct one misapprehension, Leach does not propose that
                      > CLD `engaged in multiple chaotic adult relationships with women'. She
                      > suggests that the frantic and unexplained guilt expressed in CLD's
                      > diary for a brief period may have had its roots in a (single) sexual
                      > affair and proposes a possible partner; she later discusses his
                      > relationship with Constance Burch and notes that it was certainly
                      > consistent with an affair. And that's it – she does NOT say (as
                      > someone once put it here) that CLD was `bonking everyone he knew over
                      > the age of sixteen' – nor, whatever you may have heard, that he didn't
                      > really like children and only pretended to so he could get their
                      > mothers into bed.
                      >
                      > Seriously, read it yourself – it seems to be unavailable from Amazon or
                      > B&N at the moment, I can't think why, but it's still in print so a good
                      > bookshop or library should be able to order a copy.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Odd. My thoughts are pretty much the same as the others who have
                      > > posted already. But then again, there was a woman (I forget the name)
                      > > who wrote a book called "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" (if memory
                      > > serves) who suggested that CLD engaged in multiple chaotic adult
                      > > relationships with women. I never read the book as I could never find
                      > > a copy, and the general consensus seemed to be that it was a bunch of
                      > > hokum, but in theory that might contain some sort of information on
                      > > your particular subject. I really don't know the specifics of what it
                      > > got into. Might be worth a look for you at any rate.
                      > >
                      > > - M
                      > >
                      >
                    • Keith
                      Try Amazon they will have one. However, it s not a book for someone who knows little about CLD and it goes into areas where you may need to have a bit of
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 2, 2008
                        Try Amazon they will have one. However, it's not a book for someone who knows little about CLD and it goes into areas where you may need to have a bit of knowledge and a whole lot of scepticism.
                         
                        I'd start with Collingwood's 'Life and Letters of Lewis Carroll' if you can get a copy. it was re-printed and the 1899 edition is often available in antiquarian bookshops for a reasonable price. It was a white wash job but nevertheless it is the basis that all biographers since then have used and often quoted. It has errors, some on page one but then so do all the biographies.
                         
                        Keith
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Mikey
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:10 PM
                        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: anti feminist readings on carroll

                        Thank you for the information. My mention of the book was really just
                        an offhand comment, and probably shouldn't have been made given my
                        obvious lack of understanding where the book and its subject are
                        concerned. In the future I'll attempt to be less of a clod. But I
                        appreciate the information and will have to get back to trying to find
                        a copy of the book. For whatever reason I haven't had luck at my
                        usual store locations, and the internet as you saw hasn't been as
                        reliable as it generally is. I'm as curious to read it myself as I am
                        to read what people think. The limited number of people I've talked
                        to about it thought it was an intelligent book, simply lacking enough
                        facts to prove the things it proposed, hence my earlier statement.
                        It's been obvious to me for some time that I need to widen my rather
                        small circle, which is partially what I hoped to do by joining this
                        group -- mission accomplished, it seems!

                        - M

                        --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "mikeindex2001"
                        <mikeindex2001@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > As Annie has said, there has been a great deal of discussion of
                        > Karoline Leach's "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" here and you might
                        > well find it instructive to search the archives.
                        >
                        > There is also a fair bit of online info about the book, notably at its
                        > own website:
                        >
                        > http://shadowofthed reamchild. wild-reality. net
                        >
                        > and in various sections of the "Looking for Lewis Carroll" website at
                        >
                        > http://www.lewiscar roll.cc.
                        >
                        > Having said that, the best you can do really is read the book for
                        > yourself, not only because there's no other way you can comment
                        > authoritatively on it, but also because I think you'll find it
                        > instructive, entertaining, superbly written and very probably
                        > surprising in view of the misapprehensions you seem to have about it.
                        >
                        > I don't know what circles you have been moving in to pick up
                        > the `general consensus' that you have. The large majority of the
                        > book's print reviews ranged from pretty good to outstanding - you can
                        > see a selection at
                        > http://shadowofthed reamchild. wild-reality. net/shadowreview s.html; and
                        > the few hostile ones have been, I think without exception, crammed with
                        > misrepresentations – you can the majority of read these at
                        > http://www.lewiscar roll.cc/nohow. html
                        > and commentaries on them at http://www.lewiscar roll.cc/shockofn ew.html
                        > and http://www.lewiscar roll.cc/rackinre ply.html
                        >
                        > Just to correct one misapprehension, Leach does not propose that
                        > CLD `engaged in multiple chaotic adult relationships with women'. She
                        > suggests that the frantic and unexplained guilt expressed in CLD's
                        > diary for a brief period may have had its roots in a (single) sexual
                        > affair and proposes a possible partner; she later discusses his
                        > relationship with Constance Burch and notes that it was certainly
                        > consistent with an affair. And that's it – she does NOT say (as
                        > someone once put it here) that CLD was `bonking everyone he knew over
                        > the age of sixteen' – nor, whatever you may have heard, that he didn't
                        > really like children and only pretended to so he could get their
                        > mothers into bed.
                        >
                        > Seriously, read it yourself – it seems to be unavailable from Amazon or
                        > B&N at the moment, I can't think why, but it's still in print so a good
                        > bookshop or library should be able to order a copy.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Odd. My thoughts are pretty much the same as the others who have
                        > > posted already. But then again, there was a woman (I forget the name)
                        > > who wrote a book called "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild" (if memory
                        > > serves) who suggested that CLD engaged in multiple chaotic adult
                        > > relationships with women. I never read the book as I could never find
                        > > a copy, and the general consensus seemed to be that it was a bunch of
                        > > hokum, but in theory that might contain some sort of information on
                        > > your particular subject. I really don't know the specifics of what it
                        > > got into. Might be worth a look for you at any rate.
                        > >
                        > > - M
                        > >
                        >


                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 01/01/2008 12:09
                      • alka mishra
                        hey ALL m just short of being lynched for writing LCD and anti feminist in one line.M looking for anti feminist readings on him because intend to refute
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 2, 2008
                          hey ALL
                          m just short of being lynched for writing LCD and anti
                          feminist in one line.M looking for anti feminist
                          readings on him because intend to refute whatever anti
                          feminist allegations exist on Childrens literature in
                          my paper.

                          people do not be so judgemental,if u insist on being
                          judgemental do not be so hastily so.

                          LONG LIVE CLD! if that ushers innnnn some peace.

                          thanks for all the help to all those who helped.

                          --- mikeindex2001 <mikeindex2001@...> wrote:

                          > As Annie has said, there has been a great deal of
                          > discussion of
                          > Karoline Leach's "In the Shadow of the Dreamchild"
                          > here and you might
                          > well find it instructive to search the archives.
                          >
                          > There is also a fair bit of online info about the
                          > book, notably at its
                          > own website:
                          >
                          > http://shadowofthedreamchild.wild-reality.net
                          >
                          > and in various sections of the "Looking for Lewis
                          > Carroll" website at
                          >
                          > http://www.lewiscarroll.cc
                          >
                          > Having said that, the best you can do really is read
                          > the book for
                          > yourself, not only because there's no other way you
                          > can comment
                          > authoritatively on it, but also because I think
                          > you'll find it
                          > instructive, entertaining, superbly written and very
                          > probably
                          > surprising in view of the misapprehensions you seem
                          > to have about it.
                          >
                          > I don't know what circles you have been moving in to
                          > pick up
                          > the `general consensus' that you have. The large
                          > majority of the
                          > book's print reviews ranged from pretty good to
                          > outstanding - you can
                          > see a selection at
                          >
                          http://shadowofthedreamchild.wild-reality.net/shadowreviews.html;
                          > and
                          > the few hostile ones have been, I think without
                          > exception, crammed with
                          > misrepresentations – you can the majority of read
                          > these at
                          > http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/nohow.html
                          > and commentaries on them at
                          > http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/shockofnew.html
                          > and http://www.lewiscarroll.cc/rackinreply.html
                          >
                          > Just to correct one misapprehension, Leach does not
                          > propose that
                          > CLD `engaged in multiple chaotic adult relationships
                          > with women'. She
                          > suggests that the frantic and unexplained guilt
                          > expressed in CLD's
                          > diary for a brief period may have had its roots in a
                          > (single) sexual
                          > affair and proposes a possible partner; she later
                          > discusses his
                          > relationship with Constance Burch and notes that it
                          > was certainly
                          > consistent with an affair. And that's it – she does
                          > NOT say (as
                          > someone once put it here) that CLD was `bonking
                          > everyone he knew over
                          > the age of sixteen' – nor, whatever you may have
                          > heard, that he didn't
                          > really like children and only pretended to so he
                          > could get their
                          > mothers into bed.
                          >
                          > Seriously, read it yourself – it seems to be
                          > unavailable from Amazon or
                          > B&N at the moment, I can't think why, but it's still
                          > in print so a good
                          > bookshop or library should be able to order a copy.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Odd. My thoughts are pretty much the same as the
                          > others who have
                          > > posted already. But then again, there was a woman
                          > (I forget the name)
                          > > who wrote a book called "In the Shadow of the
                          > Dreamchild" (if memory
                          > > serves) who suggested that CLD engaged in multiple
                          > chaotic adult
                          > > relationships with women. I never read the book
                          > as I could never find
                          > > a copy, and the general consensus seemed to be
                          > that it was a bunch of
                          > > hokum, but in theory that might contain some sort
                          > of information on
                          > > your particular subject. I really don't know the
                          > specifics of what it
                          > > got into. Might be worth a look for you at any
                          > rate.
                          > >
                          > > - M
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html
                        • jenny2write
                          A couple of things. Mikey, you (like me) may not agree with everything in The Shadow of the Dreamchild (which should be available from your library if
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 3, 2008
                            A couple of things. Mikey, you (like me) may not agree with
                            everything in "The Shadow of the Dreamchild" (which should be
                            available from your library if nowhere else) but it is an extremely
                            interesting, perceptive and original book about Carroll which has
                            changed the way people look at him. I wonder who
                            told you it was twaddle. Second, Alka, I think Carroll did have a
                            few rather cranky ideas about, for instance, women attending
                            universities. He seemed to think that too much studying would lead to
                            deformity (but then he also thought electric light would wear out the
                            eyes - some of his views in later life were a touch eccentric to say
                            the least). But his concern was always for the women and there is not
                            to my knowledge any suggestion that he ever thought women were
                            inferior to men. He also made the occasional jokes which might today
                            be considered mildly patronising to women, but they were only jokes
                            and were less patronising than the kind of thing many men of his
                            period habitually said and wrote. Consequently, there would have been
                            little or no contemporary criticism of him for being anti-feminist or
                            anti-feminine because he was far more positive and supportive
                            towards women than the vast majority of men of his period were. To
                            me, can I humbly say this seems
                            to suggest that you might consider a different topic for your paper.
                            Because if it is that difficult to find something to knock down,
                            perhaps you don't need to try, but should be looking for possibly-
                            justified criticisms to demolish.

                            Oh and one final thought, if anyone wants to see a real load of
                            twaddle, try to find Phyllis Greenacre's 1955 psychoanalytic study
                            of Carroll.
                          • Keith
                            Jenny, this thread on feminism was closed before your comment. Phyllis Greenacre was a person of her time. She was 95 when she died in 1989 and a founder
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 6, 2008
                              Jenny,
                               
                              this thread on feminism was closed before your comment.
                               
                              Phyllis Greenacre was a person of her time. She was 95 when she died in 1989 and a founder member of the LCSNA. I would think the only thing you disagree with her upon is the view that CLD was a paedophile. She was however a psychoanalyst who was suckered into the Freud way of thinking. This is why I advocate folk thinking for themselves instead of taking anyone's line on things.  Admittedly it canot be done in complex arguments but this one is simple.
                               
                              For some reason CLD's sexual leanings seem to,overshadow everything else and yet if something came along which convinced folk one way or the other I doubt if it would make a jot of difference to anyone. Nobody bothers to question Byron's sexual leanings and Wilde's only get a passing mention and in fact are irrelevant to how a person enjoys his writings such as The Canterville Ghost etc.
                               
                              As I have said before, if CLD is found to have done something drastic with Alice Liddell, which appears highly unlikely, then would it or should it spoil the 'Alice' tale for anyone? We all go to see Rossetti's paintings in the galleries yet his models were highly dubious characters sexually. Even Laura Gurney who posed for Julia Margaret Cameron became one of the Prince of Wales stable but nobody suggests her images should not appear in books about JMC. The Lever has an image of Emma Hamilton, Nelson's mistress, should it be removed?
                               
                              It's a pointless argument this silliness over his sexuality.
                               
                              Keith
                               
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:53 AM
                              Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: anti feminist readings on carroll

                              A couple of things. Mikey, you (like me) may not agree with
                              everything in "The Shadow of the Dreamchild" (which should be
                              available from your library if nowhere else) but it is an extremely
                              interesting, perceptive and original book about Carroll which has
                              changed the way people look at him. I wonder who
                              told you it was twaddle. Second, Alka, I think Carroll did have a
                              few rather cranky ideas about, for instance, women attending
                              universities. He seemed to think that too much studying would lead to
                              deformity (but then he also thought electric light would wear out the
                              eyes - some of his views in later life were a touch eccentric to say
                              the least). But his concern was always for the women and there is not
                              to my knowledge any suggestion that he ever thought women were
                              inferior to men. He also made the occasional jokes which might today
                              be considered mildly patronising to women, but they were only jokes
                              and were less patronising than the kind of thing many men of his
                              period habitually said and wrote. Consequently, there would have been
                              little or no contemporary criticism of him for being anti-feminist or
                              anti-feminine because he was far more positive and supportive
                              towards women than the vast majority of men of his period were. To
                              me, can I humbly say this seems
                              to suggest that you might consider a different topic for your paper.
                              Because if it is that difficult to find something to knock down,
                              perhaps you don't need to try, but should be looking for possibly-
                              justified criticisms to demolish.

                              Oh and one final thought, if anyone wants to see a real load of
                              twaddle, try to find Phyllis Greenacre's 1955 psychoanalytic study
                              of Carroll.


                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 02/01/2008 11:29
                            • alka mishra
                              hey jenny, in ur last post u referred to few rather cranky ideas about, for instance, women attending universities it would be a great help if u could
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 6, 2008
                                hey jenny,

                                in ur last post u referred to "few rather cranky ideas
                                about, for instance, women attending universities" it
                                would be a great help if u could elaborate on it ..as
                                in the other cranky ideas apart frm no univ edu for
                                women.
                                thanks.
                                @ all,
                                m through with my paper ..almost ..three cheers to
                                all!

                                --- Keith <keith@...> wrote:

                                > Jenny,
                                >
                                > this thread on feminism was closed before your
                                > comment.
                                >
                                > Phyllis Greenacre was a person of her time. She was
                                > 95 when she died in 1989 and a founder member of the
                                > LCSNA. I would think the only thing you disagree
                                > with her upon is the view that CLD was a paedophile.
                                > She was however a psychoanalyst who was suckered
                                > into the Freud way of thinking. This is why I
                                > advocate folk thinking for themselves instead of
                                > taking anyone's line on things. Admittedly it canot
                                > be done in complex arguments but this one is simple.
                                >
                                > For some reason CLD's sexual leanings seem
                                > to,overshadow everything else and yet if something
                                > came along which convinced folk one way or the other
                                > I doubt if it would make a jot of difference to
                                > anyone. Nobody bothers to question Byron's sexual
                                > leanings and Wilde's only get a passing mention and
                                > in fact are irrelevant to how a person enjoys his
                                > writings such as The Canterville Ghost etc.
                                >
                                > As I have said before, if CLD is found to have done
                                > something drastic with Alice Liddell, which appears
                                > highly unlikely, then would it or should it spoil
                                > the 'Alice' tale for anyone? We all go to see
                                > Rossetti's paintings in the galleries yet his models
                                > were highly dubious characters sexually. Even Laura
                                > Gurney who posed for Julia Margaret Cameron became
                                > one of the Prince of Wales stable but nobody
                                > suggests her images should not appear in books about
                                > JMC. The Lever has an image of Emma Hamilton,
                                > Nelson's mistress, should it be removed?
                                >
                                > It's a pointless argument this silliness over his
                                > sexuality.
                                >
                                > Keith
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: jenny2write
                                > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:53 AM
                                > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: anti feminist readings
                                > on carroll
                                >
                                >
                                > A couple of things. Mikey, you (like me) may not
                                > agree with
                                > everything in "The Shadow of the Dreamchild"
                                > (which should be
                                > available from your library if nowhere else) but
                                > it is an extremely
                                > interesting, perceptive and original book about
                                > Carroll which has
                                > changed the way people look at him. I wonder who
                                > told you it was twaddle. Second, Alka, I think
                                > Carroll did have a
                                > . He seemed to think that too much
                                > studying would lead to
                                > deformity (but then he also thought electric light
                                > would wear out the
                                > eyes - some of his views in later life were a
                                > touch eccentric to say
                                > the least). But his concern was always for the
                                > women and there is not
                                > to my knowledge any suggestion that he ever
                                > thought women were
                                > inferior to men. He also made the occasional jokes
                                > which might today
                                > be considered mildly patronising to women, but
                                > they were only jokes
                                > and were less patronising than the kind of thing
                                > many men of his
                                > period habitually said and wrote. Consequently,
                                > there would have been
                                > little or no contemporary criticism of him for
                                > being anti-feminist or
                                > anti-feminine because he was far more positive and
                                > supportive
                                > towards women than the vast majority of men of his
                                > period were. To
                                > me, can I humbly say this seems
                                > to suggest that you might consider a different
                                > topic for your paper.
                                > Because if it is that difficult to find something
                                > to knock down,
                                > perhaps you don't need to try, but should be
                                > looking for possibly-
                                > justified criticisms to demolish.
                                >
                                > Oh and one final thought, if anyone wants to see a
                                > real load of
                                > twaddle, try to find Phyllis Greenacre's 1955
                                > psychoanalytic study
                                > of Carroll.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207
                                > - Release Date: 02/01/2008 11:29
                                >



                                Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.