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Damon and Chloe

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  • jenny2write
    Does anyone know the original story of Damon and Chloe to which Carroll refers in one of his comic poems?
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 4 3:06 AM
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      Does anyone know the original story of Damon and Chloe to which Carroll
      refers in one of his comic poems?
    • Lyon
      Not having read the poem - as yet - I m wondering how he puts the two together. It was always Daphnis and Chloe, or Damon and Pythias. Chloe means shoot ,
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 4 4:07 AM
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        Not having read the poem - as yet - I'm wondering how he puts the two together. It was always Daphnis and Chloe, or Damon and Pythias. Chloe means "shoot", which is why she is generally thought of as being a persona of Demeter, earth mother, goddess of corn etc and the mother of Persephone (wife of Hades). Damon and Pythias were great friends, in the same way as Castor and Pollux, David and Jonathan, etc. Can you send me the poem? I can't find it in any of my books.
         
        Best, Kate
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:06 PM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

        Does anyone know the original story of Damon and Chloe to which Carroll
        refers in one of his comic poems?

      • Keith
        Alice is 145 years old today! Keith ... From: Lyon To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Damon
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 4 5:27 AM
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          'Alice' is 145 years old today!
           
          Keith
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Lyon
          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 12:07 PM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

          Not having read the poem - as yet - I'm wondering how he puts the two together. It was always Daphnis and Chloe, or Damon and Pythias. Chloe means "shoot", which is why she is generally thought of as being a persona of Demeter, earth mother, goddess of corn etc and the mother of Persephone (wife of Hades). Damon and Pythias were great friends, in the same way as Castor and Pollux, David and Jonathan, etc. Can you send me the poem? I can't find it in any of my books.
           
          Best, Kate
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:06 PM
          Subject: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

          Does anyone know the original story of Damon and Chloe to which Carroll
          refers in one of his comic poems?


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        • Lyon
          Wow! I think I am too. :( ... From: Keith To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 12:27 AM Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 4 6:41 AM
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            Wow!
             
            I think I am too.  :(
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Keith
            Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 12:27 AM
            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

            'Alice' is 145 years old today!
             
            Keith
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Lyon
            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 12:07 PM
            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

            Not having read the poem - as yet - I'm wondering how he puts the two together. It was always Daphnis and Chloe, or Damon and Pythias. Chloe means "shoot", which is why she is generally thought of as being a persona of Demeter, earth mother, goddess of corn etc and the mother of Persephone (wife of Hades). Damon and Pythias were great friends, in the same way as Castor and Pollux, David and Jonathan, etc. Can you send me the poem? I can't find it in any of my books.
             
            Best, Kate
             
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:06 PM
            Subject: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

            Does anyone know the original story of Damon and Chloe to which Carroll
            refers in one of his comic poems?


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            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/883 - Release Date: 01/07/2007 12:19

          • Joe Soap
            Chloe (as Kate has said) loved Daphnis and was loved by him. Damon loved Delia and his love was returned. Only Janet Little (an obscure 18th century Scottish
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 5 5:19 AM
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              Chloe (as Kate has said) loved Daphnis and was loved by him.  Damon loved Delia and his love was returned.

               

              Only Janet Little (an obscure 18th century Scottish poetess, a friend of Rabbie Burns) manages to unite Chloe and Damon in a dubious liason (he was on the rebound from Phillis) in her poem "The Fickle Pair".

               

              But there is no reason to suppose that CLD had ever read Jane Little's poem - her (single) book is not listed in his library by Stern or Lovett.

               

              I think he may have been confused - I certainly am!

              J



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
              To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, 4 July, 2007 11:06:13 AM
              Subject: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

              Does anyone know the original story of Damon and Chloe to which Carroll
              refers in one of his comic poems?




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            • jenny2write
              I don t think we can be sure, Joe, that he did not know her work, just because Stern & Lovett do not list her book. Many of his books weren t catalogued or
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 5 9:46 AM
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                I don't think we can be sure, Joe, that he did not know her work, just
                because Stern & Lovett do not list her book. Many of his books weren't
                catalogued or were gathered into bundles for sale, and one of his ChCh
                mates commented that he had periodic clear-outs of his books throughout
                his life, anyway.

                And hm, could he really have been confused? I thought the usual story
                was that CLD confused others, but worked everything out himself with
                perfect logic.

                Even if he did mean Damon and Phillis, or Daphnis and Chloe, though,
                there remains the question of why he would give any such title to a
                poem which is about a nasty young woman telling her pathetic swain that
                only she knows what he means. I can't see any connection between that
                and any of their stories. In fact, the only one speaking obscurely here
                is CLD.

                I think there must be a cryptic or more likely an ironic meaning to
                this title. If only I could guess what it might be! Jenny
                -------------

                > Only Janet Little (an obscure 18th century Scottish poetess, a friend
                of Rabbie Burns) manages to unite Chloe and Damon in a dubious liason
                (he was on the rebound from Phillis) in her poem "The Fickle Pair".
                >
                > But there is no reason to suppose that CLD had ever read Jane
                Little's poem - her (single) book is not listed in his library by Stern
                or Lovett.
                >
                > I think he may have been confused - I certainly am!
              • BlackMonk
                ... From: jenny2write To: Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 12:46 PM Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Damon
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 5 11:47 AM
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "jenny2write" <woolf@...>
                  To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 12:46 PM
                  Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Damon and Chloe

                  >
                  > Even if he did mean Damon and Phillis, or Daphnis and Chloe, though,
                  > there remains the question of why he would give any such title to a
                  > poem which is about a nasty young woman telling her pathetic swain that
                  > only she knows what he means.

                  I might be reading it wrong, but it doesn't sound to me like that's what the
                  poem is about. On the surface, neither of them is particularly nice to the
                  other. A lot of couples are like that, they'll bicker and fight all the
                  time, but at the end of the day, they do love each other and would be lost
                  without the other. My guess is that the title is to highlight that irony.
                • jenny2write
                  I didn t have any problem with the surface meaning of the poem - it s quite in the line of typical comical poems in Punch at the time, the henpecked hubby
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 9 1:46 AM
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                    I didn't have any problem with the surface meaning of the poem - it's
                    quite in the line of typical comical poems in "Punch" at the time,
                    the
                    henpecked hubby etc. (I think he is a hubby because she is making him
                    food that evening). That ghastly poem in Sylvie and Bruno about
                    Tootles or someone is another in a number of poems all in similar
                    vein,
                    showing that CLD stuck to this view - i.e. that giving yourself to a
                    woman is a trap for the man: he gets abused for it. Again, a not
                    uncommon view at the time in some circles. And yes, he never to my
                    knowledge portrayed a normal happy marriage in any of his writings:
                    very interesting.( One does wonder what his parents' marriage was
                    like,
                    although his mother sounds a very nice and gentle sort of woman.)

                    I am just interested in why it should be Damon and Chloe. CLD rarely
                    wrote anything obscure without a reason, he did not seem to just pick
                    names at random but would try to do something clever with them. I
                    can't even think of a reason why it should be "Damon" and "Chloe" if
                    he
                    were writing about a specific couple he knew.

                    Although incidentally they seem rather lower class and he would not
                    have mixed socially with people like that so I think they are just
                    stock characters.

                    I wonder if there were a couple in a popular song with those names,
                    or
                    some well known theatrical comic characters with an act called Damon
                    and Chloe. Anyone got any further ideas or have we exhausted this
                    subject now?Jenny
                  • su carey
                    All I can say is who knew a person could be a ninny in the 1800 s , and of course thanks to to C. in Baltimore, how fun to see a reference to my store on this
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 9 3:10 AM
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                      All I can say is "who knew a person could be a ninny in the 1800's", and of course thanks to to C. in Baltimore, how fun to see a reference to my store on this list serve.

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: jenny2write <woolf@...>
                      To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, July 9, 2007 1:46:10 AM
                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Damon and Chloe

                      I didn't have any problem with the surface meaning of the poem - it's
                      quite in the line of typical comical poems in "Punch" at the time,
                      the
                      henpecked hubby etc. (I think he is a hubby because she is making him
                      food that evening). That ghastly poem in Sylvie and Bruno about
                      Tootles or someone is another in a number of poems all in similar
                      vein,
                      showing that CLD stuck to this view - i.e. that giving yourself to a
                      woman is a trap for the man: he gets abused for it. Again, a not
                      uncommon view at the time in some circles. And yes, he never to my
                      knowledge portrayed a normal happy marriage in any of his writings:
                      very interesting. ( One does wonder what his parents' marriage was
                      like,
                      although his mother sounds a very nice and gentle sort of woman.)

                      I am just interested in why it should be Damon and Chloe. CLD rarely
                      wrote anything obscure without a reason, he did not seem to just pick
                      names at random but would try to do something clever with them. I
                      can't even think of a reason why it should be "Damon" and "Chloe" if
                      he
                      were writing about a specific couple he knew.

                      Although incidentally they seem rather lower class and he would not
                      have mixed socially with people like that so I think they are just
                      stock characters.

                      I wonder if there were a couple in a popular song with those names,
                      or
                      some well known theatrical comic characters with an act called Damon
                      and Chloe. Anyone got any further ideas or have we exhausted this
                      subject now?Jenny




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