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From a New York Time Book Review piece

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  • annoxford
    Just what s needed: carrying on with the myth. In a review of Barbara Gowdy s book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29. Ron is a bravely
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2007
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      Just what's needed: carrying on with the myth.

      In a review of Barbara Gowdy's book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29.

      "Ron is a bravely drawn character — a three-dimensional pedophile. He isn't likable. He isn't
      even sympathetic. But he's not a monster. Instead, he has an almost Victorian infatuation
      with little girls that's somehow both virtuous and creepy. Like Lewis Carroll taking
      photographs of little Alice Liddell, he has aesthetic leanings that are at first admirable, then
      troubling. (When Ron looks down at Rachel, "he can make out only the tender curve of her
      neck and the earlobe with its pearl stud, like a drop of saliva.") Gowdy portrays him as a man
      struggling with his weakness."

      Here's the link if your don't want to read it out of context.
      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/books/review/Cain.t.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fFeatures%
      2fBooks%2fBook%20Reviews&oref=slogin

      It's soooo quiet here!
      AnnOxford
    • lucy chew
      It is disheartening that such a myth has persisted, and will continue to persist, about a man who was so much more than he is regarded for. It has permeated
      Message 2 of 9 , May 4, 2007
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        It is disheartening that such a myth has persisted, and will continue to persist, about a man who was so much more than he is regarded for.  It has permeated society's idea of him so deeply that seemingly no amount of research or evidence to the contrary can negate it; I intend to do either my graduate or doctoral work on Carroll, and I know that I will forever be answering the question of paedophilia asked by those who have just enough interest in him to know about that, but not enough to know the truth. 

        annoxford <annoxford@...> wrote:
        Just what's needed: carrying on with the myth.

        In a review of Barbara Gowdy's book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29.

        "Ron is a bravely drawn character — a three-dimensional pedophile. He isn't likable. He isn't
        even sympathetic. But he's not a monster. Instead, he has an almost Victorian infatuation
        with little girls that's somehow both virtuous and creepy. Like Lewis Carroll taking
        photographs of little Alice Liddell, he has aesthetic leanings that are at first admirable, then
        troubling. (When Ron looks down at Rachel, "he can make out only the tender curve of her
        neck and the earlobe with its pearl stud, like a drop of saliva.") Gowdy portrays him as a man
        struggling with his weakness."

        Here's the link if your don't want to read it out of context.
        http://www.nytimes. com/2007/ 04/29/books/ review/Cain. t.html?_r= 1&n=Top%2fFeatur es%
        2fBooks%2fBook% 20Reviews& oref=slogin

        It's soooo quiet here!
        AnnOxford


      • Keith
        Lucy, it is the modern way of doing things - any man who has a dispute with a female is likely to find himself accused of sexual misdemeanours nowadays.
        Message 3 of 9 , May 4, 2007
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          Lucy,
           
          it is the modern way of doing things - any man who has a dispute with a female is likely to find himself accused of sexual misdemeanours nowadays.
           
          Children are of course more likely to exploit weakness than anyone else and since society has given control over to the least experienced people i.e. children, they make life unbearable for any adults they come into contact with who they see as authority figures, mainly but not exclusively teachers, by raising false accusations of sexual misconduct towards them.  This now applies to boys as well as girls and is caused by weak minded adults believing that inexperienced people can control their own destiny. These people who handed over control sometimes act out of naivety but often they are absolute evil and occupy positions in social care trying to make a name for themselves. 
           
          The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals who have unleashed this evil on society by trying to re-interpret everything by their own twisted standards. Personally I believe in innocent unless proven guilty, exactly the reverse to what happens to a modern day teacher.  But CLD had NOT ONE accusation raised against him of any misconduct towards children. He more often than not had a chaperone with him as he photographed and on one occasion when a parent said he could proceed without one he was stunned by their trust in him.  Things have changed in society since Victorian days and these evil minded people who write books etc. do not realise that or are exploiting the public by writing sensational books.
           
          My own opinion is that anyone who raises a false charge against anyone else should suffer the same punishment as the victim would have done if the allegation had not been proved to be false. So for false accusation of murder - life, for a false sexual assault allegation against a teacher - five years in jail, whatever the age and of course for minors it would be borstal type jail.
           
          Keith
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: lucy chew
          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:24 AM
          Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

          It is disheartening that such a myth has persisted, and will continue to persist, about a man who was so much more than he is regarded for.  It has permeated society's idea of him so deeply that seemingly no amount of research or evidence to the contrary can negate it; I intend to do either my graduate or doctoral work on Carroll, and I know that I will forever be answering the question of paedophilia asked by those who have just enough interest in him to know about that, but not enough to know the truth. 

          annoxford <annoxford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:

          Just what's needed: carrying on with the myth.

          In a review of Barbara Gowdy's book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29.

          "Ron is a bravely drawn character — a three-dimensional pedophile. He isn't likable. He isn't
          even sympatheti. But he's not a monster. Instead, he has an almost Victorian infatuation
          with little girls that's somehow both virtuous and creepy. Like Lewis Carroll taking
          photographs of little Alice Liddell, he has aesthetic leanings that are at first admirable, then
          troubling. (When Ron looks down at Rachel, "he can make out only the tender curve of her
          neck and the earlobe with its pearl stud, like a drop of saliva.") Gowdy portrays him as a man
          struggling with his weakness."

          Here's the link if your don't want to read it out of context.
          http://www.nytimes. com/2007/ 04/29/books/ review/Cain. t.html?_r= 1&n=Top%2fFeatur es%
          2fBooks%2fBook% 20Reviews& oref=slogin

          It's soooo quiet here!
          AnnOxford



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007 14:16
        • Lyon
          Well, yes. Try a Google Search for Carroll and pedophilia and just see how many hits come up. And NONE of them can actually cite ANY evidence. Even after a
          Message 4 of 9 , May 4, 2007
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            Well, yes. Try a Google Search for Carroll and pedophilia and just see how many hits come up. And NONE of them can actually cite ANY evidence. Even after a century - isn't the man entitled to the truth? I get roughly three enquiries a month which say "Is it true that Carroll was a pedophile?" So much so that I now have a stock letter. But recently, I have just begun to ignore these types of questions. I mean - go and find out, for goodness sakes! Do the research! It's the same type of interest that makes people slow down and gawk at traffic accidents. Bleah! LOL
            Kate L
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: lucy chew
            Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

            It is disheartening that such a myth has persisted, and will continue to persist, about a man who was so much more than he is regarded for.  It has permeated society's idea of him so deeply that seemingly no amount of research or evidence to the contrary can negate it; I intend to do either my graduate or doctoral work on Carroll, and I know that I will forever be answering the question of paedophilia asked by those who have just enough interest in him to know about that, but not enough to know the truth. 

            annoxford <annoxford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:

            Just what's needed: carrying on with the myth.

            In a review of Barbara Gowdy's book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29.

            "Ron is a bravely drawn character — a three-dimensional pedophile. He isn't likable. He i
          • Broadwabab123088@aol.com
            The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals What does being liberal have to do anything? I agree with your
            Message 5 of 9 , May 4, 2007
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              "The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals"
              What does being liberal have to do anything? I agree with your argument, for the most part, but I don't think the people who view Carroll as a pedophile are exactly "liberal." :P

              "
              Things have changed in society since Victorian days and these evil minded people who write books etc. do not realise that or are exploiting the public by writing sensational books."

              I agree and disagree. Society has changed, in a way which makes everyone much more suspicious of an adult man's attentions towards a young girl. Obviously what Carroll was doing his lifetime did not meet with much controversy, while it does today. I don't think the people writing these goods are "evil", they simply are products of their time. They may be incorrect and uneducated in certain ways, but the pedophilia issue is perfectly reasonable until you dig deeper. I think these authors have really just scratched the surface, and living in this day and age, its easy to come to that conclusion.


               
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: keith@...
              To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 4 May 2007 4:06 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

              Lucy,
               
              it is the modern way of doing things - any man who has a dispute with a female is likely to find himself accused of sexual misdemeanours nowadays.
               
              Children are of course more likely to exploit weakness than anyone else and since society has given control over to the least experienced people i.e. children, they make life unbearable for any adults they come into contact with who they see as authority figures, mainly but not exclusively teachers, by raising false accusations of sexual misconduct towards them.  This now applies to boys as well as girls and is caused by weak minded adults believing that inexperienced people can control their own destiny. These people who handed over control sometimes act out of naivety but often they are absolute evil and occupy positions in social care trying to make a name for themselves. 
               
              The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals who have unleashed this evil on society by trying to re-interpret everything by their own twisted standards. Personally I believe in innocent unless proven guilty, exactly the reverse to what happens to a modern day teacher.  But CLD had NOT ONE accusation raised against him of any misconduct towards children. He more often than not had a chaperone with him as he photographed and on one occasion when a parent said he could proceed without one he was stunned by their trust in him.  Things have changed in society since Victorian days and these evil minded people who write books etc. do not realise that or are exploiting the public by writing sensational books.
               
              My own opinion is that anyone who raises a false charge against anyone else should suffer the same punishment as the victim would have done if the allegation had not been proved to be false. So for false accusation of murder - life, for a false sexual assault allegation against a teacher - five years in jail, whatever the age and of course for minors it would be borstal type jail.
               
              Keith
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: lucy chew
              Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:24 AM
              Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

              It is disheartening that such a myth has persisted, and will continue to persist, about a man who was so much more than he is regarded for.  It has permeated society's idea of him so deeply that seemingly no amount of research or evidence to the contrary can negate it; I intend to do either my graduate or doctoral work on Carroll, and I know that I will forever be answering the question of paedophilia asked by those who have just enough interest in him to know about that, but not enough to know the truth. 

              annoxford <annoxford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
              Just what's needed: carrying on with the myth.

              In a review of Barbara Gowdy's book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29.

              "Ron is a bravely drawn character — a three-dimensional pedophile. He isn't likable. He isn't
              even sympatheti. But he's not a monster. Instead, he has an almost Victorian infatuation
              with little girls that's somehow both virtuous and creepy. Like Lewis Carroll taking
              photographs of little Alice Liddell, he has aesthetic leanings that are at first admirable, then
              troubling. (When Ron looks down at Rachel, "he can make out only the tender curve of her
              neck and the earlobe with its pearl stud, like a drop of saliva.") Gowdy portrays him as a man
              struggling with his weakness."

              Here's the link if your don't want to read it out of context.
              http://www.nytimes. com/2007/ 04/29/books/ review/Cain. t.html?_r= 1&n=Top%2fFeatur es%
              2fBooks%2fBook% 20Reviews& oref=slogin

              It's soooo quiet here!
              AnnOxford



              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007 14:16

              AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
            • Keith
              Having had a friend die from the results of being wrongfully accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people are just products of their time
              Message 6 of 9 , May 4, 2007
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                Having had a friend die from the results of being wrongfully accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people are 'just products of their time' as unimaginable hurt is caused by the accusers and their supporters. On the day my friend died the accuser withdrew the allegation and admitted it was a lie. Nothing whatsover was done to him.
                 
                Re-interpreting history to suit a 21st century perspective is meaningless - we need to understand historical events from the perspective of their time. It's not easy, which is possibly why every one of CLD's biographers gets it wrong. Perhaps the man is too much of an enigma to be understood? That doesn't mean we should accuse him of crimes that he was never accused of in his own time. CLD suffers more than most from a bad press.
                 
                Keith
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 6:09 PM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

                "The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals"
                What does being liberal have to do anything? I agree with your argument, for the most part, but I don't think the people who view Carroll as a pedophile are exactly "liberal." :P

                "
                Things have changed in society since Victorian days and these evil minded people who write books etc. do not realise that or are exploiting the public by writing sensational books."

                I agree and disagree. Society has changed, in a way which makes everyone much more suspicious of an adult man's attentions towards a young girl. Obviously what Carroll was doing his lifetime did not meet with much controversy, while it does today. I don't think the people writing these goods are "evil", they simply are products of their time. They may be incorrect and uneducated in certain ways, but the pedophilia issue is perfectly reasonable until you dig deeper. I think these authors have really just scratched the surface, and living in this day and age, its easy to come to that conclusion.


                 
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk
                To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Fri, 4 May 2007 4:06 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

                Lucy,
                 
                it is the modern way of doing things - any man who has a dispute with a female is likely to find himself accused of sexual misdemeanours nowadays.
                 
                Children are of course more likely to exploit weakness than anyone else and since society has given control over to the least experienced people i.e. children, they make life unbearable for any adults they come into contact with who they see as authority figures, mainly but not exclusively teachers, by raising false accusations of sexual misconduct towards them.  This now applies to boys as well as girls and is caused by weak minded adults believing that inexperienced people can control their own destiny. These people who handed over control sometimes act out of naivety but often they are absolute evil and occupy positions in social care trying to make a name for themselves. 
                 
                The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals who have unleashed this evil on society by trying to re-interpret everything by their own twisted standards. Personally I believe in innocent unless proven guilty, exactly the reverse to what happens to a modern day teacher.  But CLD had NOT ONE accusation raised against him of any misconduct towards children. He more often than not had a chaperone with him as he photographed and on one occasion when a parent said he could proceed without one he was stunned by their trust in him.  Things have changed in society since Victorian days and these evil minded people who write books etc. do not realise that or are exploiting the public by writing sensational books.
                 
                My own opinion is that anyone who raises a false charge against anyone else should suffer the same punishment as the victim would have done if the allegation had not been proved to be false. So for false accusation of murder - life, for a false sexual assault allegation against a teacher - five years in jail, whatever the age and of course for minors it would be borstal type jail.
                 
                Keith
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: lucy chew
                Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:24 AM
                Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

                It is disheartening that such a myth has persisted, and will continue to persist, about a man who was so much more than he is regarded for.  It has permeated society's idea of him so deeply that seemingly no amount of research or evidence to the contrary can negate it; I intend to do either my graduate or doctoral work on Carroll, and I know that I will forever be answering the question of paedophilia asked by those who have just enough interest in him to know about that, but not enough to know the truth. 

                annoxford <annoxford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
                Just what's needed: carrying on with the myth.

                In a review of Barbara Gowdy's book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29.

                "Ron is a bravely drawn character — a three-dimensional pedophile. He isn't likable. He isn't
                even sympatheti. But he's not a monster. Instead, he has an almost Victorian infatuation
                with little girls that's somehow both virtuous and creepy. Like Lewis Carroll taking
                photographs of little Alice Liddell, he has aesthetic leanings that are at first admirable, then
                troubling. (When Ron looks down at Rachel, "he can make out only the tender curve of her
                neck and the earlobe with its pearl stud, like a drop of saliva.") Gowdy portrays him as a man
                struggling with his weakness."

                Here's the link if your don't want to read it out of context.
                http://www.nytimes. com/2007/ 04/29/books/ review/Cain. t.html?_r= 1&n=Top%2fFeatur es%
                2fBooks%2fBook% 20Reviews& oref=slogin

                It's soooo quiet here!
                AnnOxford



                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007 14:16

                AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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              • Broadwabab123088@aol.com
                Having had a friend die from the results of being wrongfully accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people are just products of their time
                Message 7 of 9 , May 4, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  "Having had a friend die from the results of being wrongfully accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people are 'just products of their time' ..."

                  I'm sorry for your loss. Still, I did'nt think we were talking about hurting people's feelings here. I was looking at this from an intellectual perspective, not an emotional one. I mean, Carroll isn't alive to hear these alligations, and most serious scholars know better. Its not as if everyone thinks Carroll was a pedophile.

                  "
                  It's not easy, which is possibly why every one of CLD's biographers gets it wrong."

                  Actually, I haven't read any seirous work (which I trust) that claims that Carroll was a pedophile. I've read sources that describe the theories, etc. but most of them lean towards or outright renounce the idea of Carroll being a pedophile.

                  --Jill (realized I didn't sign before)

                   
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: keith@...
                  To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, 4 May 2007 1:42 PM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

                  
                  Having had a friend die from the results of being wrongfully accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people are 'just products of their time' as unimaginable hurt is caused by the accusers and their supporters. On the day my friend died the accuser withdrew the allegation and admitted it was a lie. Nothing whatsover was done to him.
                   
                  Re-interpreting history to suit a 21st century perspective is meaningless - we need to understand historical events from the perspective of their time. It's not easy, which is possibly why every one of CLD's biographers gets it wrong. Perhaps the man is too much of an enigma to be understood? That doesn't mean we should accuse him of crimes that he was never accused of in his own time. CLD suffers more than most from a bad press.
                   
                  Keith
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 6:09 PM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

                  "The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals"
                  What does being liberal have to do anything? I agree with your argument, for the most part, but I don't think the people who view Carroll as a pedophile are exactly "liberal." :P

                  "
                  Things have changed in society since Victorian days and these evil minded people who write books etc. do not realise that or are exploiting the public by writing sensational books."

                  I agree and disagree. Society has changed, in a way which makes everyone much more suspicious of an adult man's attentions towards a young girl. Obviously what Carroll was doing his lifetime did not meet with much controversy, while it does today. I don't think the people writing these goods are "evil", they simply are products of their time. They may be incorrect and uneducated in certain ways, but the pedophilia issue is perfectly reasonable until you dig deeper. I think these authors have really just scratched the surface, and living in this day and age, its easy to come to that conclusion.


                   
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: keith@cheshire46. freeserve. co.uk
                  To: lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Fri, 4 May 2007 4:06 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

                  Lucy,
                   
                  it is the modern way of doing things - any man who has a dispute with a female is likely to find himself accused of sexual misdemeanours nowadays.
                   
                  Children are of course more likely to exploit weakness than anyone else and since society has given control over to the least experienced people i.e. children, they make life unbearable for any adults they come into contact with who they see as authority figures, mainly but not exclusively teachers, by raising false accusations of sexual misconduct towards them.  This now applies to boys as well as girls and is caused by weak minded adults believing that inexperienced people can control their own destiny. These people who handed over control sometimes act out of naivety but often they are absolute evil and occupy positions in social care trying to make a name for themselves. 
                   
                  The interpreters of CLD as paedophile in nature rank alongside these woolly minded liberals who have unleashed this evil on society by trying to re-interpret everything by their own twisted standards. Personally I believe in innocent unless proven guilty, exactly the reverse to what happens to a modern day teacher.  But CLD had NOT ONE accusation raised against him of any misconduct towards children. He more often than not had a chaperone with him as he photographed and on one occasion when a parent said he could proceed without one he was stunned by their trust in him.  Things have changed in society since Victorian days and these evil minded people who write books etc. do not realise that or are exploiting the public by writing sensational books.
                   
                  My own opinion is that anyone who raises a false charge against anyone else should suffer the same punishment as the victim would have done if the allegation had not been proved to be false. So for false accusation of murder - life, for a false sexual assault allegation against a teacher - five years in jail, whatever the age and of course for minors it would be borstal type jail.
                   
                  Keith
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: lucy chew
                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:24 AM
                  Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] From a New York Time Book Review piece

                  It is disheartening that such a myth has persisted, and will continue to persist, about a man who was so much more than he is regarded for.  It has permeated society's idea of him so deeply that seemingly no amount of research or evidence to the contrary can negate it; I intend to do either my graduate or doctoral work on Carroll, and I know that I will forever be answering the question of paedophilia asked by those who have just enough interest in him to know about that, but not enough to know the truth. 

                  annoxford <annoxford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
                  Just what's needed: carrying on with the myth.

                  In a review of Barbara Gowdy's book, Helpless, reviewed by Chelsea Cain, Sunday, April 29.

                  "Ron is a bravely drawn character — a three-dimensional pedophile. He isn't likable. He isn't
                  even sympatheti. But he's not a monster. Instead, he has an almost Victorian infatuation
                  with little girls that's somehow both virtuous and creepy. Like Lewis Carroll taking
                  photographs of little Alice Liddell, he has aesthetic leanings that are at first admirable, then
                  troubling. (When Ron looks down at Rachel, "he can make out only the tender curve of her
                  neck and the earlobe with its pearl stud, like a drop of saliva.") Gowdy portrays him as a man
                  struggling with his weakness."

                  Here's the link if your don't want to read it out of context.
                  http://www.nytimes. com/2007/ 04/29/books/ review/Cain. t.html?_r= 1&n=Top%2fFeatur es%
                  2fBooks%2fBook% 20Reviews& oref=slogin

                  It's soooo quiet here!
                  AnnOxford



                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 02/05/2007 14:16

                  AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/787 - Release Date: 03/05/2007 14:11
                • jenny2write
                  ... accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people are just products of their time as unimaginable hurt is caused by the accusers and their
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 8, 2007
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                    --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Having had a friend die from the results of being wrongfully
                    accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people
                    are 'just products of their time' as unimaginable hurt is caused by
                    the accusers and their supporters. On the day my friend died the
                    accuser withdrew the allegation and admitted it was a lie. Nothing
                    whatsover was done to him.


                    I agree with you Keith about this - I know a dedicated teacher in the
                    US who was really enthusiastic about his work and did all kinds of
                    intersting lessons with the kids, then was accused of assaulting a
                    child, not sexually just pushing him and hurting him. The kid had
                    been really difficult and had already made accusations about other
                    teachers. The teacher did not suffer any legal comeback but life was
                    made so difficult for him and he was so upset by all the
                    investigations, that he gave up teaching. As far as I know the kid
                    was just allowed to continue on his merry way.

                    But in general these kids are in a minority. Most of these false
                    accusations are probaly ignorance. Let's face it when you are 14 or
                    something you are really not very smart about the ways of the world
                    and I actually don't think kids of that age have the slightest idea
                    of the effect of such accusations on someone they maybe don't much
                    like. These young idiots need to know that they will get very very
                    severely punished within the school - or perhaps excluded and forced
                    to work at home for 6 months and not meet any of their friends, if
                    they make this kind of accusation without foundation.

                    But I certainly don't think they should be sent to Borstal or
                    labelled as criminals. That would make decent children who really are
                    bullied by teachers afraid to come forward . I went to lots of
                    schools and I remember one or two teachers who were really vile - did
                    not sexually abuse but were otherwise hateful. One of these teachers
                    was an evil man abusing his position of trust - another was actually
                    mentally ill and needed help - and it is very, very difficult for
                    children to get enough of a grasp of the situation to confront them
                    or accuse them of anything if there is no mechanism for them to do
                    so. One in particular actually ruined a friend of mine's youth with
                    his evil behaviour, and we were totally helpless. If I had had the
                    means to make a complaint about him I would have done. And I think it
                    did both me and my friend a lot of harm to have to put up with him.

                    So there are two sides to the story but I do totally agree with you
                    that matters are absolutely insane at present. I sometimes wonder how
                    anyone can deal with being a teacher at all with all the rubbish they
                    have to put up with.

                    Not that this has much to do with Carroll, come to think of it.

                    Jenny
                  • Lyon
                    I have always thought of Alice - and indeed children per se - were, to Carroll, Muses. It is interesting that, in the opening chapter of TTLG, the black kitten
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 8, 2007
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                      I have always thought of Alice - and indeed children per se - were, to Carroll, Muses. It is interesting that, in the opening chapter of TTLG, the black kitten is playing with a skein of thread. The scene is very similar to that of Theseus meeting Ariadne, and being given a skein of thread to help him find his way out again.
                       

                      Here, too, that puzzle of the house of Minos,

                      The maze none could untangle, until touched

                      By a great love shown by a royal girl,

                      He, Daedalus himself, unravelled all

                      The baffling turns and dead ends in the dark,

                      Guiding the blind way back by a skein unwound. . .

                      [Book VI, Lines 41 – 45]

                       
                      Remember Corinthians, also, that Carroll quoted in his 'breastbeating years"? "When I was a child, I thought as a child, then I grew to manhood and I put away childish things. Now I see through a glass darkly. . . ."
                       
                      Now isn't that a good description of the Looking-Glass?
                       
                      Pedophilia? I don't think so. 
                       
                      Kate L
                       
                      BTW - if anyone is interested, I have just completed a series of books called "The Hero's Journey" based on Joseph Campbell's monomyth of the HJ.  They are mainly for kids - or at least that is why I wrote them originally - but it offers an insight into the way we can use myth as a 'guide to life.'  There's a bit about them on www.ababooks.co.nz
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:20 PM
                      Subject: [lewiscarroll] Accusations against teachers

                      --- In lewiscarroll@ yahoogroups. com, "Keith" <keith@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Having had a friend die from the results of being wrongfully
                      accused I am not of a mind to agree with you that these people
                      are 'just products of their time' as unimaginable hurt is caused by
                      the accusers and their supporters. On the day my friend died the
                      accuser withdrew the allegation and admitted it was a lie. Nothing
                      whatsover was done to him.

                      I agree with you Keith about this - I know a dedicated teacher in the
                      US who was really enthusiastic about his work and did all kinds of
                      intersting lessons with the kids, then was accused of assaulting a
                      child, not sexually just pushing him and hurting him. The kid had
                      been really difficult and had already made accusations about other
                      teachers. The teacher did not suffer any legal comeback but life was
                      made so difficult for him and he was so upset by all the
                      investigations, that he gave up teaching. As far as I know the kid
                      was just allowed to continue on his merry way.

                      But in general these kids are in a minority. Most of these false
                      accusations are probaly ignorance. Let's face it when you are 14 or
                      something you are really not very smart about the ways of the world
                      and I actually don't think kids of that age have the slightest idea
                      of the effect of such accusations on someone they maybe don't much
                      like. These young idiots need to know that they will get very very
                      severely punished within the school - or perhaps excluded and forced
                      to work at home for 6 months and not meet any of their friends, if
                      they make this kind of accusation without foundation.

                      But I certainly don't think they should be sent to Borstal or
                      labelled as criminals. That would make decent children who really are
                      bullied by teachers afraid to come forward . I went to lots of
                      schools and I remember one or two teachers who were really vile - did
                      not sexually abuse but were otherwise hateful. One of these teachers
                      was an evil man abusing his position of trust - another was actually
                      mentally ill and needed help - and it is very, very difficult for
                      children to get enough of a grasp of the situation to confront them
                      or accuse them of anything if there is no mechanism for them to do
                      so. One in particular actually ruined a friend of mine's youth with
                      his evil behaviour, and we were totally helpless. If I had had the
                      means to make a complaint about him I would have done. And I think it
                      did both me and my friend a lot of harm to have to put up with him.

                      So there are two sides to the story but I do totally agree with you
                      that matters are absolutely insane at present. I sometimes wonder how
                      anyone can deal with being a teacher at all with all the rubbish they
                      have to put up with.

                      Not that this has much to do with Carroll, come to think of it.

                      Jenny

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