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Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Ordination & CLD

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  • Joe Soap
    Jenny, CLD assisted Maurice with Communion on several occasions. Maurice was curate of St. Peter s Chapel, Vere St. (in the parish of St. Marylebone) which
    Message 1 of 45 , Apr 8, 2006
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      Jenny,
      CLD assisted Maurice with Communion on several occasions.  Maurice was curate of St. Peter's Chapel, Vere St. (in the parish of St. Marylebone) which was (and is) a non-parochial chapel, so he wouldn't really have had "parochial duties".
      J
       

      jenny2write <woolf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Maybe the answer to this lies in the fact that he volunteered to
      perform
      > parochial duties to FD Maurice?  Perhaps it wasn't the fact of
      parochial
      > duties that detered him - but the NATURE of the parochial duties he
      would
      > have been required to perform?  His friend Tyrhwitt semed to have
      similar
      > difficulties.


      John, That makes it even more odd. Did he specify what duties he was
      prepared to do for Maurice that he could not bear to do in a parish of
      his own?   Jenny





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    • Keith
      Mike, that certainly is a possibility. People do tend to explain too much if they know they were wrong to do something. Keith ... From: mikeindex2001
      Message 45 of 45 , Apr 11, 2006
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        Mike,

        that certainly is a possibility.

        People do tend to explain too much if they know they were wrong to do
        something.

        Keith


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "mikeindex2001" <Mike@...>
        To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 10:14 PM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Ordination & CLD


        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Keith, I think you make a very valid point. There really was no need
        > for Dodgson to to introduce the topic of his personal experience at
        > all, and he certainly doesn't use it to offer Wilcox any special
        > advice.
        >
        > Your idea of him using the opportunity to put the record awry for
        > posterity is certainly tenable. But perhaps it may have been something
        > less coherent and cold-blooded. We all tend to feel most need to
        > explain ourselves when we feel least sure of our own actions and intent.
        > If we have a sneaking feeling we have been wrong, unwise, dishonorable
        > or whatever then we can often feel an overwhelming need to try and
        > justify our actions by explaining them at every opportunity to anyone
        > who will listen. Perhaps LC's description of his actions in the letter
        > is something like this? Perhaps he was well aware somewhere in his
        > mind (or perhaps his Fairy kept reminding him) that he had not handled
        > the situation of the priesthood very honorably or with much dignity,
        > and his letter to Wilcox was a reaction to that inner knowledge.
        > Perhaps he is painting the rather self-serving and partial picture for
        > himself, to soothe his conscience?
        >
        > Mike
        >
        > > If I had been Dodgson I'd have given a general answer and not
        > brought myself into it. Something such as 'if you have the aptitude and
        > the required commitment then being ordained is what you should do but if
        > so you'll need to be aware of what parochial duties entail before making
        > up your mind about it' - no need to mention himself at all. I'd guess
        > that's what 99% of folk who are asked such a question would reply
        > whether they were ordained or not.
        >>
        >> Keith
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From: Joe Soap
        >> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
        >> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:17 PM
        >> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Ordination & CLD
        >>
        >>
        >> Point taken Mike! Thank you.
        >> J
        >>
        >> mikeindex2001 Mike@... wrote:
        >> I think it's a little unnecessary to ask Keith the rewrite the letter
        >> to show how LC 'would have' written it if he were being honest. I
        >> think we all know there are indeed quite good reasons for seeing
        >> Dodgson's attitude in the letter as a little less than forthright.
        >>
        >> His claim - for example - that Pusey would probably have understood
        >> his failure to take orders is fairly hard to swallow, given Pusey's
        >> known views on ordination, and the fact that he only got Dodgson his
        >> Studentship in the first place on the understanding that he DID take
        >> orders. You can't help but suspect that if Dodgson had really
        >> believed Pusey would understand then he would probably have spoken to
        >> him about it at the time (as indeed would have been only proper). The
        >> fact that he didn't suggests he was well aware - despite what he says
        >> to Wilcox - that Pusey would have been anything but understanding.
        >>
        >> This alone gives a feeling of some manipuilation or at least extreme
        >> tact in Dodgson's descriptions.
        >>
        >> I don't have the insight into his soul to know what his intentions
        >> were when writing the letter (as others apparently do!), so I can
        >> only go on what is actually written, and this does - as Keith says -
        >> imply some degree of reserve and possibly even self-deception over
        >> his reasons for rejecting the priesthood and his method of doing so.
        >>
        >> Mike
        >>
        >>
        >> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Joe Soap oldjoesoap@ wrote:
        >> >
        >> > Keith,
        >> > I wonder if you could rewrite the letter to show us what he would
        >> have said if he had been honest with young Wilcox. Not the whole
        >> letter of course - just the bit or bits where you think he was
        >> deviating from the real truth.
        >> > J
        >> >
        >> > Keith keith@ wrote:
        >> > Jenny,
        >> >
        >> > I'm not assuming ulterior motives I'm just trying to explain
        >> something that
        >> > I know isn't true. On it's own the letter would mean nothing more
        >> that what
        >> > it says but taken into context with everything else we know, that
        >> William
        >> > Wilcox didn't, it's obviously a very devious document.
        >> >
        >> > I agree with you that we should not always assume he was being
        >> devious but
        >> > in this case it is so patently obvious that he was being devious.
        >> The proof
        >> > is there for everyone who knows his history to discern.
        >> >
        >> > He probably was a straighforward Victorian gent in 90% of his life
        >> but he
        >> > wasn't in the other part. He retreated into the normal side
        >> whenever he
        >> > wished but that doesn't mean the radical side did not exist. Just
        >> compare
        >> > him with Liddon or Vere Bayne - he's much less a standard Victorian
        >> in that
        >> > comparison.
        >> >
        >> > Keith
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > ----- Original Message -----
        >> > From: "jenny2write" woolf@
        >> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
        >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:11 AM
        >> > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Ordination & CLD
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > > >
        >> > > Keith said:
        >> > >
        >> > > "As Jenny says in her posting, he didn't have to say anything
        >> about
        >> > > his own situation, it wasn't necessary except for setting the
        >> record
        >> > > straight (crooked?) for a future biographer."
        >> > >
        >> > > - Keith - I see what you're saying but why assume ulterior motives
        >> > > for no particular reason? If CLD had wanted to set the record
        >> > > straight (or crooked),there are better ways he could have done
        >> that,
        >> > > like for instance writing about it in his diary, which I agree
        >> with
        >> > > you was something of his "official line" - specially in later
        >> years.
        >> > > For all he knew, Wilcox would just dispose of his letter after
        >> > > reading it and all his efforts to convince posterity would be in
        >> vain
        >> > > (After all MOST of his family seem to have destroyed most of his
        >> > > letters, since hardly any survive.)
        >> > >
        >> > > No - I think he wanted to advise Wilcox, and believed that he had
        >> > > gained some experience that could be useful for Wilcox to hear.
        >> To
        >> > > me, his letter has the hallmarks of someone dealing years
        >> afterwards
        >> > > with a painful issue which has still not been properly resolved,
        >> even
        >> > > though he himself had managed to more or less come to terms with
        >> > > it. Unfortunately for all the scandal-mongers, I don't think
        >> that
        >> > > the reason it was so painful for CLD was very scandalous by our
        >> > > standards, though.
        >> > >
        >> > > I sometimes wonder if CLD would be so interesting to people, and
        >> > > artefacts connected with him would be so collectable, if he could
        >> be
        >> > > shown to be in many ways an ordinary Victorian dealing with the
        >> often
        >> > > quaint mores of his time! Perhaps our contribution to the myth
        >> is to
        >> > > insist that there was more of a secret scandal for him to be upset
        >> > > about, than there really was. (Or will I be tarred, feathered - or
        >> > > ignored - for suggesting this?)
        >> > > Jenny
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
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