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Ordination & CLD

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  • jenny2write
    It s known that CLD was ordained a deacon and refused to take priest s orders, even though he was obliged to do so as a Student of Ch.Ch. One of the (several)
    Message 1 of 45 , Mar 31, 2006
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      It's known that CLD was ordained a deacon and refused to take
      priest's
      orders, even though he was obliged to do so as a Student of Ch.Ch.

      One of the (several) reasons he gave for his refusal to take priest's
      orders was that he did not wish to have to take on parochial duties.
      I am increasingly puzzled at this since the Ch Ch livings were quite
      eagerly sought after by Students who wished to marry and/or look
      after parishes, and there would have been absolutely no reason to
      press-gang priest Students who did not wish to look after parishes,
      into doing so. I do not know much about the way the C of E operated
      then ( or operates now) so is there any reason why someone who is
      fully ordained should be either morally or professionally obliged to
      do parochial work?

      If not, what did CLD's objection mean?

      His failure to take priest's orders is one of the major unexplained
      areas of his life - and his refusal to do it could easily have cost
      him his job and his home. The reasons given for it seem unconvincing
      and do not make a lot of sense. Perhaps people may choose to believe
      and accept those reasons because they don't have any other theories
      and would rather accept unlikely explanations than look any further??

      If so, shouldn't we have learned better by now than to do this?
    • Keith
      Mike, that certainly is a possibility. People do tend to explain too much if they know they were wrong to do something. Keith ... From: mikeindex2001
      Message 45 of 45 , Apr 11, 2006
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        Mike,

        that certainly is a possibility.

        People do tend to explain too much if they know they were wrong to do
        something.

        Keith


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "mikeindex2001" <Mike@...>
        To: <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 10:14 PM
        Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Ordination & CLD


        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Keith, I think you make a very valid point. There really was no need
        > for Dodgson to to introduce the topic of his personal experience at
        > all, and he certainly doesn't use it to offer Wilcox any special
        > advice.
        >
        > Your idea of him using the opportunity to put the record awry for
        > posterity is certainly tenable. But perhaps it may have been something
        > less coherent and cold-blooded. We all tend to feel most need to
        > explain ourselves when we feel least sure of our own actions and intent.
        > If we have a sneaking feeling we have been wrong, unwise, dishonorable
        > or whatever then we can often feel an overwhelming need to try and
        > justify our actions by explaining them at every opportunity to anyone
        > who will listen. Perhaps LC's description of his actions in the letter
        > is something like this? Perhaps he was well aware somewhere in his
        > mind (or perhaps his Fairy kept reminding him) that he had not handled
        > the situation of the priesthood very honorably or with much dignity,
        > and his letter to Wilcox was a reaction to that inner knowledge.
        > Perhaps he is painting the rather self-serving and partial picture for
        > himself, to soothe his conscience?
        >
        > Mike
        >
        > > If I had been Dodgson I'd have given a general answer and not
        > brought myself into it. Something such as 'if you have the aptitude and
        > the required commitment then being ordained is what you should do but if
        > so you'll need to be aware of what parochial duties entail before making
        > up your mind about it' - no need to mention himself at all. I'd guess
        > that's what 99% of folk who are asked such a question would reply
        > whether they were ordained or not.
        >>
        >> Keith
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From: Joe Soap
        >> To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
        >> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:17 PM
        >> Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] Re: Ordination & CLD
        >>
        >>
        >> Point taken Mike! Thank you.
        >> J
        >>
        >> mikeindex2001 Mike@... wrote:
        >> I think it's a little unnecessary to ask Keith the rewrite the letter
        >> to show how LC 'would have' written it if he were being honest. I
        >> think we all know there are indeed quite good reasons for seeing
        >> Dodgson's attitude in the letter as a little less than forthright.
        >>
        >> His claim - for example - that Pusey would probably have understood
        >> his failure to take orders is fairly hard to swallow, given Pusey's
        >> known views on ordination, and the fact that he only got Dodgson his
        >> Studentship in the first place on the understanding that he DID take
        >> orders. You can't help but suspect that if Dodgson had really
        >> believed Pusey would understand then he would probably have spoken to
        >> him about it at the time (as indeed would have been only proper). The
        >> fact that he didn't suggests he was well aware - despite what he says
        >> to Wilcox - that Pusey would have been anything but understanding.
        >>
        >> This alone gives a feeling of some manipuilation or at least extreme
        >> tact in Dodgson's descriptions.
        >>
        >> I don't have the insight into his soul to know what his intentions
        >> were when writing the letter (as others apparently do!), so I can
        >> only go on what is actually written, and this does - as Keith says -
        >> imply some degree of reserve and possibly even self-deception over
        >> his reasons for rejecting the priesthood and his method of doing so.
        >>
        >> Mike
        >>
        >>
        >> --- In lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com, Joe Soap oldjoesoap@ wrote:
        >> >
        >> > Keith,
        >> > I wonder if you could rewrite the letter to show us what he would
        >> have said if he had been honest with young Wilcox. Not the whole
        >> letter of course - just the bit or bits where you think he was
        >> deviating from the real truth.
        >> > J
        >> >
        >> > Keith keith@ wrote:
        >> > Jenny,
        >> >
        >> > I'm not assuming ulterior motives I'm just trying to explain
        >> something that
        >> > I know isn't true. On it's own the letter would mean nothing more
        >> that what
        >> > it says but taken into context with everything else we know, that
        >> William
        >> > Wilcox didn't, it's obviously a very devious document.
        >> >
        >> > I agree with you that we should not always assume he was being
        >> devious but
        >> > in this case it is so patently obvious that he was being devious.
        >> The proof
        >> > is there for everyone who knows his history to discern.
        >> >
        >> > He probably was a straighforward Victorian gent in 90% of his life
        >> but he
        >> > wasn't in the other part. He retreated into the normal side
        >> whenever he
        >> > wished but that doesn't mean the radical side did not exist. Just
        >> compare
        >> > him with Liddon or Vere Bayne - he's much less a standard Victorian
        >> in that
        >> > comparison.
        >> >
        >> > Keith
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > ----- Original Message -----
        >> > From: "jenny2write" woolf@
        >> > To: lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com
        >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:11 AM
        >> > Subject: [lewiscarroll] Re: Ordination & CLD
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > > >
        >> > > Keith said:
        >> > >
        >> > > "As Jenny says in her posting, he didn't have to say anything
        >> about
        >> > > his own situation, it wasn't necessary except for setting the
        >> record
        >> > > straight (crooked?) for a future biographer."
        >> > >
        >> > > - Keith - I see what you're saying but why assume ulterior motives
        >> > > for no particular reason? If CLD had wanted to set the record
        >> > > straight (or crooked),there are better ways he could have done
        >> that,
        >> > > like for instance writing about it in his diary, which I agree
        >> with
        >> > > you was something of his "official line" - specially in later
        >> years.
        >> > > For all he knew, Wilcox would just dispose of his letter after
        >> > > reading it and all his efforts to convince posterity would be in
        >> vain
        >> > > (After all MOST of his family seem to have destroyed most of his
        >> > > letters, since hardly any survive.)
        >> > >
        >> > > No - I think he wanted to advise Wilcox, and believed that he had
        >> > > gained some experience that could be useful for Wilcox to hear.
        >> To
        >> > > me, his letter has the hallmarks of someone dealing years
        >> afterwards
        >> > > with a painful issue which has still not been properly resolved,
        >> even
        >> > > though he himself had managed to more or less come to terms with
        >> > > it. Unfortunately for all the scandal-mongers, I don't think
        >> that
        >> > > the reason it was so painful for CLD was very scandalous by our
        >> > > standards, though.
        >> > >
        >> > > I sometimes wonder if CLD would be so interesting to people, and
        >> > > artefacts connected with him would be so collectable, if he could
        >> be
        >> > > shown to be in many ways an ordinary Victorian dealing with the
        >> often
        >> > > quaint mores of his time! Perhaps our contribution to the myth
        >> is to
        >> > > insist that there was more of a secret scandal for him to be upset
        >> > > about, than there really was. (Or will I be tarred, feathered - or
        >> > > ignored - for suggesting this?)
        >> > > Jenny
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
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