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Re: [lewiscarroll] Website for people who need to write a project about Alice

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  • Ann Burt Meyer
    Thank you, Jenny, this will certainly help! Annie AnnOxford ... ... ... Annie
    Message 1 of 64 , Mar 3, 2005
      Thank you, Jenny, this will certainly help!
      Annie
      AnnOxford
      On Thursday, March 3, 2005, at 01:50 PM, jenny2write wrote:

      >
      > This is a posting specially for the people who write to the group and
      > say things like "I have to write a paper on "Alice in Wonderland" by
      > tomorrow night, please can anyone tell me what are the main notable
      > points about it?" there is a good site here, which is actually (I
      > think) pretty interesting.
      >
      > http://www.echeat.com/essay.php?t=25907
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > visit our homepage  at:
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      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/
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      > lewiscarroll-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      >
      <image.tiff>
      >
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      <image.tiff>
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/
      >  
      > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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      Annie
    • Kate Lyon
      Sorry Keith, I m still trying to catch up with your e-mails and they are slightly out of sequence! Question, how much do you know about Newton to make these
      Message 64 of 64 , Mar 14, 2005
        Sorry Keith,
         
        I'm still trying to catch up with your e-mails and they are slightly out of sequence!
         
        Question, how much do you know about Newton to make these assertions about him?  Proof!  I need proof!
         
        Assertion.  Mathematics is a language.  It is only a tool in so far as any language is a tool. It changes and varies just as any language does.  That is, it changes according to the way reality is percieved at any particular point in time.
         
        THAT, more than anything is why Carroll is so important, he expressed the fluidity between language (including math and logic) and reality better even than Shakespeare!
         
        Regards
         
        John Tufail
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:01 AM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD teaching abilities

        John,
         
        I sincerely hope I am anachronistic - I'd hate to be in tune with today's values!  All knowledge is a progression and Newton's often quoted remark belies the fact that he was arrogant, self centred and not quite ten pence to the shilling in all things.
         
        I see that vast progress was made in the sciences in the late 19c and early 20c but mathematics did not have the same sort of increase in knowledge at the practical level.  Mathematics is simply a tool to be used in other areas, despite what mathematicians would have you believe.  Newton invented calculus because he needed a tool to do the job.
         
        CLD's maths was at a very low level for his degree.  We are regressing to that level nowadays in UK schools with very little higher mathematics being done.  The dumbing down of examinations in the 'certificates for everyone' scenario has meant that the certificates themselves are meaningless.   CLD gained his MA from eating so many meals at Ch.Ch. so perhaps we could do the same and enclose a BA degree in a happy meal at MacDonalds with an MA needing a higher number of happy meal vouchers?
         
        CLD challenged no more ideas than did anyone else.  If you wish to place a wager on the sun not coming up tomorrow then I'll take your money!  Those sort of arguments are spurious to anyone with a bit of common sense, nobody can prove that anything will happen tomorrow but since it has happened for the last 3,500 million years then it's a fair bet that it will happen tomorrow.  The sun cannot decide to do anything, if the physics is right for it to explode or implode then it will do so, it has no power of decision in the matter.  If it did then I would not take your money!  I still say that a lot of what CLD put forward as logic is nothing but stupid arguments based upon silly quibbles about what words or meanings mean.  You're being fooled by the hype and not seeing things as they actually are.  If you call CLD brilliant then you are not approaching the analysis with an open mind you've already decided.
         
        Keith 
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Kate Lyon
        Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD teaching abilities

        Hi Keith,
         
        I really hate to say this, but I find your reply just slightly anachronistic. Surely you. as a teacher, understand that what we know today is as a result of the strivings and intellect of those who have gone before us?  Newton's giants and shoulders?
         
        The fact that the maths that you learned at GCE level was actually available and accessible to you at that level was, surely, because of the efforts of people striving to MAKE that accessible to you!  In the 19th century, much of the math you learned at GCE level would have been inaccessible to the greatest minds of the day!  That is one of the primary points I was making.
         
        As regards to your comments on Carroll's logic - just look at the literature.  Logic does NOT equate to 'common sense', common sense too often defies logic! What you seem to define as common sense is rooted in every day reality - e.g. the sun rose today therefore it will rise again tomorrow.  This is NOT logic  (there is no logical argument that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, not even a scientific argument - this is faith, as there is no argument for or against the fact that the sun, being an inherently unstable entity, might not take it upon itself to either implode or explode) - and that, essentially is at the heart of Carroll's brilliance - the whole idea of his world.  He challenged everything.
         
        Regards
         
        John Tufail
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD teaching abilities

        John,
         
        I have my doubts about his mathematics - certainly his degree paper was what I did at GCE level so the question is how far did he progress after gaining his degree?
         
        I also have a problem with his logic, to me logic is common sense although having said 'common' there are not that many people with it.  His silly conundrums such as 'How long would it take for 10,000 men to build a wall etc.' are just traps for the unwary and his way to prove he is a smart arse.  The biographers have all painted a picture of someone who was inadequate, not always inadequate in the same way but every biographer has found themselves having to make excuses for him.  The biographers do not seem to have liked him much and this is unusual because most biographies are writen by admirers.  I'd guess if you did not admire someone in one way or the other then you would never bother to start a biography.
         
        Keith
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Kate Lyon
        Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:02 AM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD teaching abilities

        I concur with that question Keith,
         
        Why?  It has always puzzled me.  I can understand that Carroll IN HIS TIME might, perhaps, not have seemed in the first rate in intellectual minds of the time - but even this seems dubious given that he debated with some of the great minds of the era, and often won!  His work on logic, alone, still rates in the first class.  It just seems that most, if not all biographies seem to say that, 'as a mathematician' Carroll was distinctly second class.  It's a bit like me saying that as a mechanical engineer Wittgenstein was distinctly second class.  It is pointlesss and meaningless.
         
        The list of Carroll's achievements would place him among the 'greats' in several areas.  Logic, obviously, is the first (he was, by the way no mean mathematician), his work in a number of logic-related areas is still being praised by people better than I to assess his contributions.  His work on game theory has led to huge leaps in a variety of mathematical developments.  To my mind he is one of the great linguistic philosophers.
         
        So yes, Keith,
         
        Why?
         
        Regards
         
        John Tufail
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 7:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD teaching abilities

        Bryan,

        exactly - that's the point - why?

        Keith


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bryan Talbot" <bryan.talbot@...>
        To: "lewiscarroll" <lewiscarroll@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 12:27 AM
        Subject: Re: [lewiscarroll] CLD teaching abilities


        >
        >
        >
        >> CLD appears never to have received the status that Oxford dons usually
        >> achieve.  It's a false opinion we hold of them but nevertheless they do
        >> achieve this recognition in the minds of the general public.  His
        >> contemporaries achieved it, Liddon, Southey, Strong, Paget yet I doubt if
        >> anyone can recall why.  It isn't eccentricity that prevented him reaching
        >> it
        >> either, many dons were much greater eccentrics than him.
        >>
        >> It's as though he is stuck with the label second class - but why?
        >
        > Liddon, Southey, Strong & Paget - who cares about them? LC achieved
        > immortality in the public imagination.
        >
        > Bryan
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > http://www.bryan-talbot.com
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        > ALICE IN SUNDERLAND homepage:
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        > http://www.bryan-talbot.com/alice/index.html
        >
        > Nice prints! Visit:
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        > http://podgallery.com/talbot
        >
        > Luther Arkwright website:
        >
        > http://www.modernvikings.com/luther-arkwright/
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