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Re: Relating our visions for global villages

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  • ms@auste.elnet.lt
    Marcin Jakubowski, Thank you for your excellent letter and first hand experience which I share below. This is the knowledge that I am especially grateful for
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 3, 2007
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      Marcin Jakubowski, Thank you for your excellent letter and first hand
      experience which I share below. This is the knowledge that I am especially
      grateful for you making "open source". Please help us share this knowledge
      by writing directly to our GlobalVillages group. I have added your addresses
      and your emails should go through or please let me know. I also share with
      some of our other groups at our Minciu Sodas laboratory that might care about
      the connection between architecture and the quality of life, namely Ethical
      Design (led by architect James Ferguson in Vilnius, Lithuania), Back to the
      Root (led by Jeff Buderer currently in California) and The Optimal Life which
      I started up for Steve Bonzak in Chicago, licensed practitioner of Chinese
      medicine, and astute thinker, how are you doing? And also Pamela McLean's
      Learning From Each Other, as I explain further below.

      Marcin, Thank you for raising your practical questions and alerting us to our
      failure to respond with practical answers. I created a "blog page" for you at
      the wiki:
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OpenSourceEcology/MarcinBlog
      see LucasBlog for one way to approach that.
      Also, I have set up a new page that collects our questions:
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?Questions
      If you look at an example, then you will see that you add metadata to your
      page and the questions will appear in the list. Thank you to Sasha Mrkailo
      for a lot of work to "wikify" Marcin's documents. Sasha, when you find time,
      please take a look at Marcin's questions and perhaps you might post them at
      appropriate forums or wikis online (such as http://www.appropedia.org and see
      if we get any replies or assistance).

      I and others are quite inspired by Christopher Alexander's work on pattern
      languages. Indeed, our lab is working for Nikos A Salingaros's to promote
      his related book A Theory Of Architecture. http://www.umbau-verlag.com I
      think our general feeling is that, especially in creating "global villages",
      there are practical shortcomings in his amazing theory. Alexander's patterns
      document the "rules of thumb" that are observed because of many successful
      real life examples. But what can we do when there are no successful examples
      to point to yet, only works-in-progress? That is why I have created a page
      for "patterns in the making":
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PatternsInTheMaking
      And there you will find a collection of the wiki pages that we're marking
      with the relevant metadata, which is simply PatternSummary=... So for
      example Marcin's pages on Lettuce and Sawmill document promising efforts that
      we foresee leading to patterns. I intend the PatternSummary to express the
      impact of the related activity (as a recurring activity) upon the
      surroundings and the logic of the way of life. For example, the sawmill
      allows one to make one's own lumber and build homes and buildings on one's
      land, and embark on related businesses. Or the lettuce makes for a quick
      entry crop into a farmer's market. This is already helpful to document
      (thank you, Marcin!) and this helps us focus on promising activities and then
      document the reality.

      I also note how helpful and natural it is to "share the work". By this I
      mean the paradox that the more people can contribute help in their own way,
      the more we are free to develop as "all around" individuals. For example,
      our Minciu Sodas lab has been providing Sasha Mrkailo of Serbia with 200 USD
      per month so that he might help online in all manner of ways. You will find
      him at our chat channel http://www.worknets.org/chat/ where he helps people
      learn how to use our wiki. Indeed, William Wambura in Tanzania and his
      colleagues in Uyoga have learned to use the wiki and are now this week they
      are teaching a course in that! So please greet them if you see them online.
      Sasha's earnings are very helpful at this time because he is establishing
      himself as an organic beekeeper. And he is already helping Fred Kayiwa in
      Uganda explore beekeeping there. My hope is that Sasha and I and others
      online can do work that frees up Marcin Jakubowski so that he can accomplish
      more on the ground in Missouri. And Marcin's successes are very
      inspirational to Steve Bosserman in Columbus, Ohio and his clients there who
      our lab might work for to organize independent thinkers in agriculture,
      architecture, energy and community. Similarly, we are trying to "share the
      work" optimally so that we might assemble computers in Africa, distribute
      globally our work to film and edit video material, and our own experiments
      this summer in Lithuania to organize "video bridges". We're pursuing
      different aspects of global villages but it is our culture of "independent
      thinkers" that allows us to "share the work" and help each other establish
      ourselves.

      Pamela McLean leads our working group Learning From Each Other and will be
      very happy that we are now collecting questions and hopefully helping to
      answer them. I invite us all to join us for our chat at
      http://www.worknets.org/chat/ this Thursday, July 5, 2007 which Pamela is
      organizing, Fred Kayiwa is leading and I am chairing. Our topic is our
      on-the-ground projects in Africa and how they might be relevant to our work
      around the world, including Marcin's farm in Missouri and Steve's city of
      Columbus, Ohio.

      Marcin, Franz, Helmut and all, Thank you for openly working on your visions!

      Andrius

      Andrius Kulikauskas
      Minciu Sodas
      http://www.ms.lt
      ms@...


      -----------------
      Helmut and others,

      I've got the book, it's all pretty theory. If it had a concrete
      program, then Mollison would be replicating sustainable economies
      worldwide. The truth behind the beauty is typically harsh. My
      experience is that things look much different on the ground, and
      practical courses of events make such theory useless in practice,
      outside of providing an initial instigation that alternatives are
      possible. My critique is rather harsh, as the book makes a grand
      promise, in my view, but fails to deliver concreteness. I can tell
      you- I read the thing from cover to cover, but once I started doing
      it, i had to start from scratch, because the only way you can learn it
      is by doing, and the book does not provide much useful guidance when
      it comes to practice. I don't think the book addresses much of the
      real economic process, if one is actually trying to live the good
      life. I think the book sounds great to city people, such as me in my
      former life, until they start doing the things the book talks about.

      So taking writing such as Mollison as a start, I beleive that the end
      and means is stable, localized economies. That means, the enabling
      information, and a working example. For us, the goal is a 100-person
      community that exemplifies all the principles, and is so damn good
      (quality of life, in all respects, unsurpassed) that it becomes a
      meme. Right now we are at the step of composing the infrastructure
      that makes it happen. Right now we have the land tenure, and we're
      putting together the hardware. At the same time, we are designing
      everything with economic base in mind. My thought on money: a real
      economy is the best money. Only once real economic process exists
      (instead of present funny money and related absurdities), then means
      of exchange may be devised based on that economy. Right now, just
      printing up some new currency, or even establishing an advanced, local
      credit-debit clearing system, is useless - if the real economic
      process does not put substance into that money. So, the solution is to
      build real economies and replicate, and the money and legal system
      follow.

      The real economy for the OSE meme- 100 people, tens of acres scale,
      all food, energy, housing, technology, transportation, electronics,
      education, mechanical, legal, financial systems producible via high
      tech self-providing flex fab. All of the above are also business
      opportunities for external market. Advanced technology and culture,
      developing ecological states of art. Cultural advancement in art,
      science, research, innovation. Multiskilled, work-mobile population.
      Simple formula. I hope you can come and visit in 5 years when we've
      done it.

      Right now i still simply cry out that the Global Village movement has
      not captured any hardware required for the above, into an os
      information pool, and all the talk on Global Villages does not go back
      to the technology patterns that are the foundation of all discussion
      on Global Villages. Let me be specifit- I am talking of open source
      technology enabling open source franchise - across all economic
      sectors. Nor is there much discussion about capturing land back into
      stewardship holdings - whether urban or rural. Once we capture the two
      items above, we can talk of replicable cultural patterns.

      (Note my last Global Village message via Franz. In it i asked several
      concrete technology questions, but no response to any of the request.
      This shows a lack of focus on what I considure the crucial piece of
      the puzzle. We need to be transitioning Global Villages beyond
      philosophical bullshit into enabling technology. Once again, the
      common pattern language to all Global Villagers is technology and
      knowhow for self-employment or employment by choice (as opposed to
      voluntary coercion). Otherwise, we are subscribing to an assumption
      that the pattern language that we are creating has no foundation. This
      is my persistent critique. We need to start pushing this need to the
      Global Villagers, start creating such culture, or start a new list in
      which philosophical bullshit is prohibited ;) Otherwise, we are
      implicitly submitting to being spectators, when others are producing
      the technologies that we use. That's a recipe for a failed
      civilization. We need to ask what freedom really menas. Boy, I am
      getting too philosophical here, better quit now.)

      At the same time, we aim to demonstrate and open source the basic
      infrastructure in the next 3 years, and at the same time, demonstrate
      related business opportunities for an economic base. Cultural
      transformation can follow, as i think the opportunity base at our
      facilities will attract all kinds of interest.

      Now, what do you propose as far as outreach to the PC movement? Who
      are its active leaders? I see it as a fragmented effort, hardly
      acknowledging the economic base of real economic development. Are
      there some good examples that we should collaborate with? Please
      advise me of any truths out there behind the beauty of PC designs.

      Regarding lack of attention to technology - seems like I am the only
      person pursuing a working example of a community that tries to control
      its own technology - how do we organize around this issue? How do we
      bring it to the fore? Does anyone out there agree that this is one of
      the first programs to pursue for any civilization? Then why is so
      little work being done on this aspect? It appears that is it the
      enabling feature of all our efforts, not to mention for a working
      economy, but noone seems to be addressing it. How to come to
      understanding here? Is the truth that it's hard work, and it's too
      difficult to pioneer the issue?

      I must comment on the sawmill work. I am a week or two from cutting
      dimensional lumber from onsite trees to make little houses out of. It
      feels extremely rewarding, to run a device, that is economically
      powerful - and my own creation, according to sound design, highlighted
      by utmost simplicity. By the way, I challenge anyone, and pass this
      challenge on, to design a simpler cutting head. I believe the design
      is (1) lowest number of parts, (2) lowest fabrication time, (3) lowest
      cost and maintenance cost, (4) longest life, of any other.

      But, the development process is ugly. It is hard work to work on a
      device that you have no guarantee will work at all, and, to go through
      a number of iterations before a final product comes about.
      Psychologically, before the device is put together, it looks like a
      bunch of metal scrap, incapable of working at all. I think this is the
      truth of development - which we go through here - but it is my hope
      that more people will participate. My challenge is to convince people
      that the beauty of a finished product - a sawmill or the world's first
      true open source village with the highest quality of life imaginable -
      a veritable Garden of Eden - is worth the effort. If I could do that,
      then I would have people flocking to our facility right now.

      Marcin

      On 7/2/07, Helmut Leitner <leitner@...> wrote:
      > I want to point out two aspects of the Permaculture movement.
      > The PC movement has all the structures (academies in many nations,
      > more than 300.000 people that took PC design courses, dozens of books,
      > journals, other publications) to efficiently pass valuable information.
      >
      > The Permaculture Movement (Bill Mollison, Alternative Nobel Prize 1981)
      > has developed very elaborate options for social structures based on
      > Trusts, Villages, Bio-Regions, alloting and rostering tasks in the
      > community (last chapter, 50 pages, of "Permaculture Design Manual").
      >
      > It might also be helpful to connect to the PC movement, because it is
      > often viewd as anti-technology, which repells technologically interested
      > people. A component "Open Modular Technology" being simple and efficient
      > would axactly fit to the needs and philosophy of the PC movement.
      >
      > Helmut
      >
      > Franz Nahrada wrote:
      > > Marcin could you possibly go through the raw version of the
      > > proposal first and see which parts are obsolete?
      > >
      > > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OpenSourceEcology/Work
      > >
      > > I think the idea of having paying fellows gave room
      > > to the concept of having them make a living while in OSE -
      > > and some similar stuff. This is essential for me and maybe also for
      others.
      > >
      > > I think Sasha is going to do a lot of beautifying,
      > > and wikifying of your stuff. mrkflux@...
      > > but he should be able to have correct information.
      > >
      > > Then the whole Info will be distributed -
      > > I suggest then pages come with disccussion pages
      > > (we had a chat today to fix this - discussion must also happen within
      the
      > > wiki!)
      > >
      > > I suggest you get your own Recent changes
      > > (OpenSourceEcology as subwiki)
      > >
      > > all the best
      > >
      > > FranzNahrada June 27, 2007 19:37 CET
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > >
      > > Andrius wrote in GlobalVillages today:
      > >
      > > Hi! I finished my US income taxes. Also, yesterday I signed two
      > > agreements with the Folk Creativity Club "Atzalynas" in Vilnius by which
      > > I will give 4000 EUR and loan 2500 EUR so that we can do the video
      > > bridge project for which the European Union is contributing 10,000 EUR.
      > > We will buy two sets of projects and cameras for a total of 4000 EUR and
      > > we will do 12 video bridges this summer. Now I will take a two week
      > > trip through Lithuania to check out various "hubs" where I and others
      > > might work from in the cities and villages.
      > >
      > > I am very glad to see Marcin Jakubowski active at our wiki. The Open
      > > Source Ecology worknet is thriving with his business plan outline at
      > > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OpenSourceEcology and also his
      > > proposal which is posted here
      > > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OpenSourceEcology/Work and which we
      > > will "wikify".
      > >
      > > I look forward to our helping with other such worknets at
      > > http://www.worknets.org including:
      > > * Rick Nelson's EcoBnB
      > > * Jeff Buderer's Back To The Root
      > > * Franz Nahrada's Global Villages
      > > * Lucas Gonzalez's Pandemic Flu
      > > * Pamela McLean's Learning From Each Other
      > > * Samwel Kongere's Mendenyo
      > > There is a common theme that I think of as creating a "pattern language"
      > > (or several overlapping pattern languages) for unfolding a "global
      > > village". I'm interested in how we might maintain our separate
      > > perspectives and yet merge them, too. For example, I would like to
      > > relate Jeff and Benoit Couture regarding my own handbook for independent
      > > thinkers which I'd like to return to at
      > >
      > > Steve Bosserman and I spoke about his own vision for such unfolding. He
      > > is interested in a "creative constraint" of requiring that the
      > > structures be small and movable. There are special rules that allow US
      > > residents to build small structures (up to 400 square feet = 40 square
      > > meters) on federal land. Such small structures could be built so that
      > > they could be moved as needed. This allows for a semi-nomadic type of
      > > life where an extended family may live in an area for five years but
      > > have the option to move somewhere else. Or a house might be moved say
      > > 100 meters away so that a teenager might have more privacy, or then it
      > > might be brought in, perhaps connected to the parents house, if the
      > > grandparent lives there. This is an interesting design constraint that
      > > might be very useful in fostering global village thinking.
      > >
      > > I have fixed up our chat archive http://www.worknets.org/archive/ so
      > > that now it is easy to find our chats from a given date and also copy
      > > and paste them nicely to our letters or to our wiki. See for example
      > > our chat from the wiki barnraising for Jeff Buderer's Back To The Root
      > > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=5&mday=6&year=2007 and
      > > Samwel's webinar on June 7, 2007
      > > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=5&mday=7&year=2007 and
      > > also my own webinar on April 25, 2007 for Pamela McLean & Asif Daya
      > > (Trainers Pod series)
      > > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=3&mday=25&year=2007.
      > >
      > > Currently, every day on average we're receiving 22 letters, editing 40
      > > wiki pages and writing 200 lines of chat.
      > >
      > > 11,598 lines of chat (since April 2007), see:
      > > http://www.worknets.org/archive/
      > > 3,515 wiki pages (since November 2004), see:
      > > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?action=spx
      > > 23,000 letters (since March 1999), see: http://www.ms.lt/?start=199903
      > >
      > > We're interested to find meaningful ways to move the content from one
      > > form to another. I will keep improving our interfaces and please keep
      > > us posted of your needs and suggestions.
      > >
      > > Pamela, if Fred Kayiwa is in good health perhaps he might lead the July
      > > 5th meeting? And perhaps a topic might be looking for connections
      > > between our "global village" efforts in the developed world and in the
      > > developing world, how might they support each other? For example, what
      > > kinds of experiments on-the-ground might we want to do in Africa or
      > > India that we could learn from? And what is it that we could design or
      > > organize or support in the developed world - such as for assembling
      > > computers, sharing knowledge about beekeeping, purchasing and selling
      > > flash drives, - that might help us in the developing world?
      > >
      > > Andrius
      > >
      > > Andrius Kulikauskas
      > > Minciu Sodas
      > > http://www.ms.lt
      > > ms@...
      > > Vilnius, Lithuania
      propose as far as outreach to the PC movement? Who
      >are its active leaders? I see it as a fragmented effort, hardly
      >acknowledging the economic base of real economic development. Are
      >there some good examples that we should collaborate with? Please
      >advise me of any truths out there behind the beauty of PC designs.
      >
      >Regarding lack of attention to technology - seems like I am the only
      >person pursuing a working example of a community that tries to control
      >its own technology - how do we organize around this issue? How do we
      >bring it to the fore? Does anyone out there agree that this is one of
      >the first programs to pursue for any civilization? Then why is so
      >little work being done on this aspect? It appears that is it the
      >enabling feature of all our efforts, not to mention for a working
      >economy, but noone seems to be addressing it. How to come to
      >understanding here? Is the truth that it's hard work, and it's too
      >difficult to pioneer the issue?
      >
      >I must comment on the sawmill work. I am a week or two from cutting
      >dimensional lumber from onsite trees to make little houses out of. It
      >feels extremely rewarding, to run a device, that is economically
      >powerful - and my own creation, according to sound design, highlighted
      >by utmost simplicity. By the way, I challenge anyone, and pass this
      >challenge on, to design a simpler cutting head. I believe the design
      >is (1) lowest number of parts, (2) lowest fabrication time, (3) lowest
      >cost and maintenance cost, (4) longest life, of any other.
      >
      >But, the development process is ugly. It is hard work to work on a
      >device that you have no guarantee will work at all, and, to go through
      >a number of iterations before a final product comes about.
      >Psychologically, before the device is put together, it looks like a
      >bunch of metal scrap, incapable of working at all. I think this is the
      >truth of development - which we go through here - but it is my hope
      >that more people will participate. My challenge is to convince people
      >that the beauty of a finished product - a sawmill or the world's first
      >true open source village with the highest quality of life imaginable -
      >a veritable Garden of Eden - is worth the effort. If I could do that,
      >then I would have people flocking to our facility right now.
      >
      >Marcin
      >
      >On 7/2/07, Helmut Leitner <leitner@...> wrote:
      >> I want to point out two aspects of the Permaculture movement.
      >> The PC movement has all the structures (academies in many nations,
      >> more than 300.000 people that took PC design courses, dozens of books,
      >> journals, other publications) to efficiently pass valuable information.
      >>
      >> The Permaculture Movement (Bill Mollison, Alternative Nobel Prize 1981)
      >> has developed very elaborate options for social structures based on
      >> Trusts, Villages, Bio-Regions, alloting and rostering tasks in the
      >> community (last chapter, 50 pages, of "Permaculture Design Manual").
      >>
      >> It might also be helpful to connect to the PC movement, because it is
      >> often viewd as anti-technology, which repells technologically interested
      >> people. A component "Open Modular Technology" being simple and efficient
      >> would axactly fit to the needs and philosophy of the PC movement.
      >>
      >> Helmut
      >>
      >> Franz Nahrada wrote:
      >> > Marcin could you possibly go through the raw version of the
      >> > proposal first and see which parts are obsolete?
      >> >
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OpenSourceEcology/Work
      >> >
      >> > I think the idea of having paying fellows gave room
      >> > to the concept of having them make a living while in OSE -
      >> > and some similar stuff. This is essential for me and maybe also for
      others.
      >> >
      >> > I think Sasha is going to do a lot of beautifying,
      >> > and wikifying of your stuff. mrkflux@...
      >> > but he should be able to have correct information.
      >> >
      >> > Then the whole Info will be distributed -
      >> > I suggest then pages come with disccussion pages
      >> > (we had a chat today to fix this - discussion must also happen within
      the
      >> > wiki!)
      >> >
      >> > I suggest you get your own Recent changes
      >> > (OpenSourceEcology as subwiki)
      >> >
      >> > all the best
      >> >
      >> > FranzNahrada June 27, 2007 19:37 CET
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > ----- Original Message -----
      >> >
      >> > Andrius wrote in GlobalVillages today:
      >> >
      >> > Hi! I finished my US income taxes. Also, yesterday I signed two
      >> > agreements with the Folk Creativity Club "Atzalynas" in Vilnius by
      which
      >> > I will give 4000 EUR and loan 2500 EUR so that we can do the video
      >> > bridge project for which the European Union is contributing 10,000 EUR.
      >> > We will buy two sets of projects and cameras for a total of 4000 EUR
      and
      >> > we will do 12 video bridges this summer. Now I will take a two week
      >> > trip through Lithuania to check out various "hubs" where I and others
      >> > might work from in the cities and villages.
      >> >
      >> > I am very glad to see Marcin Jakubowski active at our wiki. The Open
      >> > Source Ecology worknet is thriving with his business plan outline at
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OpenSourceEcology and also his
      >> > proposal which is posted here
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OpenSourceEcology/Work and which we
      >> > will "wikify".
      >> >
      >> > I look forward to our helping with other such worknets at
      >> > http://www.worknets.org including:
      >> > * Rick Nelson's EcoBnB
      >> > * Jeff Buderer's Back To The Root
      >> > * Franz Nahrada's Global Villages
      >> > * Lucas Gonzalez's Pandemic Flu
      >> > * Pamela McLean's Learning From Each Other
      >> > * Samwel Kongere's Mendenyo
      >> > There is a common theme that I think of as creating a "pattern
      language"
      >> > (or several overlapping pattern languages) for unfolding a "global
      >> > village". I'm interested in how we might maintain our separate
      >> > perspectives and yet merge them, too. For example, I would like to
      >> > relate Jeff and Benoit Couture regarding my own handbook for
      independent
      >> > thinkers which I'd like to return to at
      >> >
      >> > Steve Bosserman and I spoke about his own vision for such unfolding.
      He
      >> > is interested in a "creative constraint" of requiring that the
      >> > structures be small and movable. There are special rules that allow US
      >> > residents to build small structures (up to 400 square feet = 40 square
      >> > meters) on federal land. Such small structures could be built so that
      >> > they could be moved as needed. This allows for a semi-nomadic type of
      >> > life where an extended family may live in an area for five years but
      >> > have the option to move somewhere else. Or a house might be moved say
      >> > 100 meters away so that a teenager might have more privacy, or then it
      >> > might be brought in, perhaps connected to the parents house, if the
      >> > grandparent lives there. This is an interesting design constraint that
      >> > might be very useful in fostering global village thinking.
      >> >
      >> > I have fixed up our chat archive http://www.worknets.org/archive/ so
      >> > that now it is easy to find our chats from a given date and also copy
      >> > and paste them nicely to our letters or to our wiki. See for example
      >> > our chat from the wiki barnraising for Jeff Buderer's Back To The Root
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=5&mday=6&year=2007 and
      >> > Samwel's webinar on June 7, 2007
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=5&mday=7&year=2007 and
      >> > also my own webinar on April 25, 2007 for Pamela McLean & Asif Daya
      >> > (Trainers Pod series)
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=3&mday=25&year=2007.
      >> >
      >> > Currently, every day on average we're receiving 22 letters, editing 40
      >> > wiki pages and writing 200 lines of chat.
      >> >
      >> > 11,598 lines of chat (since April 2007), see:
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/archive/
      >> > 3,515 wiki pages (since November 2004), see:
      >> > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?action=spx
      >> > 23,000 letters (since March 1999), see: http://www.ms.lt/?start=199903
      >> >
      >> > We're interested to find meaningful ways to move the content from one
      >> > form to another. I will keep improving our interfaces and please keep
      >> > us posted of your needs and suggestions.
      >> >
      >> > Pamela, if Fred Kayiwa is in good health perhaps he might lead the July
      >> > 5th meeting? And perhaps a topic might be looking for connections
      >> > between our "global village" efforts in the developed world and in the
      >> > developing world, how might they support each other? For example, what
      >> > kinds of experiments on-the-ground might we want to do in Africa or
      >> > India that we could learn from? And what is it that we could design or
      >> > organize or support in the developed world - such as for assembling
      >> > computers, sharing knowledge about beekeeping, purchasing and selling
      >> > flash drives, - that might help us in the developing world?
      >> >
      >> > Andrius
      >> >
      >> > Andrius Kulikauskas
      >> > Minciu Sodas
      >> > http://www.ms.lt
      >> > ms@...
      >> > Vilnius, Lithuania
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