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Franz about Information Ecosystem for Global Villages

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  • ms@ms.lt
    Franz Nahrada, Thank you for your third letter which I share with our many Minciu Sodas groups. I also share Pamela McLean s reply. I invite us all to write
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 25, 2009
      Franz Nahrada,

      Thank you for your third letter which I share with our many Minciu Sodas
      groups. I also share Pamela McLean's reply. I invite us all to write our

      The next five months I can work quite intensively on our websites. My
      business hopes are to find clients for an "online help room" where we'd
      organize help, large and small, using chat room, wikis, databases, maps,
      twitter, email groups, skype, audio, video, blogs and all channels. I'm
      interested that we train our global team to be good at helping each other,
      serving as online assistants, engaging other communities, and being able
      to do more work as we did on behalf of Mornflake. I am also keen to write
      learning materials, in the Public Domain, for Classic Math Problems and
      support Edward Cherlin's open source textbook initiatives. Franz, I think
      this also supports your educational vision and your desire for more
      polished resources. I also want to develop an "Economy of Dreams" where
      we learn to present our dreams for our lives, and each other's as well,
      and learn to help each other.

      This week I'm in the village of Smalininkai working on my first statue,
      about 3.5 meters tall, of a philosophical structure. See photos:
      I invite us all to upload our photos (in the Public Domain):
      and they will appear at our website http://www.ms.lt
      So I will be mostly offline, but I will stay in touch regarding our websites.

      First steps could be:
      * Using the Worknets wiki to practice creating pages for locations.
      * Start creating blogs for our locations, such as Rusinga Island, Dukiskes
      village, Kisumu, etc. We can work out a simple way to blog using our
      wiki. I can develop an interface for that. It could be based primarily
      on photos and captions, and then also videos.
      * Think of some practical mapping projects that would have immediate
      benefit. For example, we could map out our participants in Kenya (we
      already have a map of sorts at http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/map.php ) and
      what might be useful for the Kisumu sustainability conference. We could
      map out Austrian and Lithuanian sites. I also look forward to working
      with Wael on Palestine.
      * I will try to call Ralf in a week or so and learn about his plans and
      * I'm thinking that we might make the most of ProWiki for now and we may
      (or may not) migrate to another technology that comes along in the next
      two or three or five years.
      * I suggest that we create a system of links for our "reading materials"
      and other noteworthy files so that they don't depend on our wiki. We can
      have a separate page which lists materials like the RIC handbook. We can
      have a system of tiny urls (based on ms.lt) and also a system of long-term
      links based on worknets.org globalvillages.info etc. This should be
      separate from the wiki so that it is technology independent. They can be
      redirected to the wiki etc. as needed.
      * I encourage us to build a small team of website designers and
      programmers of all skill levels and keep developing our skills and working
      on pieces of the system. I and others can organize small funds to
      contribute to those who are helping. For this economy I think it's best
      that people help first and then get rewarded afterwards, as resources
      * Once we have a team, it would make sense to create a SourceForge project
      that pulls together all of the scripts that we're working on, including
      our ProWiki code. I encourage us to work with ProWiki's inventor Helmut
      Leitner where he's interested even as we keep an independent code base.
      * We've set up a mail server on our Minciu Sodas / Worknets server and so
      we'll be able to host our own mailing lists (still some glitches) and also
      have our own password recovery for ProWiki, etc.
      * Sasha had ideas about tagging, but I think they could be best handled
      with a comprehensive search system so I will work on that, too.
      * Let's stay in touch about our plans and let's keep sharing ideas and
      identifying priorities.

      Franz and I spoke for half an hour on Thursday and so we were able to
      understand each other on many issues. For example, Franz (and Benoit)
      often creates external links into Worknets from others sites whereas I
      focus on internal links, so I don't appreciate the disruption I've caused
      them. (As I write above, we should devise a different system for such
      important links so they don't depend on the wiki structure staying the
      same in the future.)

      I agree with much of what Franz and Pam write. Regarding the "voluntary
      dictator", I believe that we are all created "voluntary dictators" of our
      own free wills, and it seems right to live on the outside as we are in the
      inside. I think we can encourage and acknowledge each other's will. And
      the resulting culture can thrive without depending on me or Franz or any
      of us. Indeed, I've made every effort that we have leaders who can work
      independently, without me or anybody, and free of any institution. I'm
      excited to encourage that further.

      More thoughts? I share Franz's and Pamela's letters.

      Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, ms@..., http://www.ms.lt, +370 699 30003



      Franz Nahrada's letter:

      Dear Andrius and all.

      I have well read your replies to my first two postings and it helped me to
      formulate my third. It is addressed to all readers and people who feel in
      one way or the other related to the Minciu Sodas family, and I would also
      like you in this exceptional case to forward it to all newsgroups. This is
      an issue that is not only concerning me and globalvillages, it is about
      the relative value and merits of the information ecosystem that we are
      building here.

      First let me say I am very happy about your reception of the village
      mapping efforts. I am considering a joint ecosystem between Minciusodas
      and Globalvillages, a good mutual cooperation with a lot of learning
      involved I like the fact that MinciuSodas is positioning itself as a "live
      village" on the web where it is important to intensify relations and
      interactions, communicate values, have open conversations, discobver new
      fields of endavours, learn to express and converse and work, and also
      learn how to integrate with experienced and knowledgeable people. This is
      very much in line with what happens in a much larger domain and we really
      can afford to become spedific and targeted like never before.

      In the last months and even weeks, we are beginning to feel that something
      big is happening in the domain of the way we use the internet. From an
      addition to our work, a simple communication tool, a protocol for
      exchanging emails and files, the internet is rapidly becoming the backbone
      structure of any kind of work that we do. Networking and Worknets are not
      any more additions or exceptins to the style we work, they become the norm.

      In a way, thats a good news. We have opioneered an effort which is now
      becoming so mainstream that it is even rapidly overhauling us. The center
      of creation of value is moving slowly, but steadily, to the net, and the
      fight for control over this power is increasing. The good news is that the
      tools to do the job are becoming reality; with google wave we will
      definitely see the completion of many of our dreams that we had with the
      wiki ideas. The bad news is that this is still happening in a disruptive
      and irrational way, still the monetary competition is the main driver
      behind the development of our social thinking infrastructure with all the
      unescapable consequences: limited reliability, vendor lock-ins, threat of
      bancrupcy, incompatibilities where you look (although there is an
      increasing pressure for interoberability), and a gigantic waste of

      It reminds me of the fact that in 1970 Stanley Kubrick could well build on
      the assumption that we would have a space Hilton by the year 2001. This
      was by no means utopian at the time, but the hidden costs of a declining
      market economy not only developed some productive forces and tools, but
      also distorted them and diminuished what our generation could had achieved
      in history. The world is full of waste and redundancy and the direction
      of speed of evolution is constantly shifting, not allowing for
      reliability and real progress. The sacrifices and the burden on man and
      nature are so enormous that we are using up all the credit that mother
      nature have given us and soon will have to declare bancrupcy.

      Anyway, thats beside the point. As one participants in Crottorf commons
      consultations used to say, its too late in the day for us to be
      pessimistic. We must double our speed and evolve towards a new culture
      that emerges within the old and is ready to gradually take over direction
      and responsibility. Thats a broad consensus now.

      And we are seing that this new culture is based on commuication,
      cooperation and good design, as it is built on creative unfolding of
      individual voluntary potentials and the elimination of command and control
      out of our social operating system. We all are called to pioneer the
      efforts to create this culture, and history will judge us for the
      diligence and skill we put into this endavour.

      The central backbone of this new culture is the development of our means
      of communication. That is a very basic fact, and those who diminuish the
      fact are in my ways not able to understand the nature of our transition.
      This is why I have started the Global Villages movement, to center a new
      culture around the reclaiming of community with a double nature: reclaim
      the local community and reclaim the global potential to communicate. For
      many communciaction might seem as a means, but I totally agree with
      Marshall McLuhan that we are basically formed by our perceptions and

      There is an utter importance in the design of media and communication
      spaces, they will decide about what we will be able to think, to imagine
      and to create.

      Wer are still in the laboratory face and we have the potential to conduct
      many many experiments. This is a confused time, but also a precious time.
      We must constantly be aware of our environment, but we also must be very
      straightforward with our own ideas.

      The Minciu Sodas information Infrastructure has been such an experiment.
      It stands out in a way because of its radical vision to not only put
      people in touch with each other, but really enact a collaboration effect
      on the lives of people. That starts with the recognition that we all are
      in need of an economic support structure; Minciu Sodas aims to acquire and
      distribute economic resources by the logic of rewarding open work that
      benefits all - which also means that it could be needed to strenghten the
      weak, not by feeding them with pittance and eleemosinaries, but by
      supporting their growth and abilities to contribute. Minciu Sodas also
      stands out because it is built on voluntary dictatorship rather than
      democracy - with you, Andrius, as the single owner and director of the
      whole venture. This is based on an assumption that an individualk who is
      in charge, able to listen but also making decisions, can react more
      flexible toi actial requirements than any group decision mechanism. This
      might be questionable from many pooints ov views, but it has indisputably
      led to some positive results that we cant deny.

      So I went a long way with you and I am willing to continue this way. But
      it is clear that there is nobody in the world that you could completely
      entrust your life and your work to. If we want total trust and
      reliability, we must very often restrict adaption and flexibility.
      Individuals change opinions, devellop, evolve - so is also for the
      direction of this lab. That is good, but also sometimes dangerous.

      Not only is each of us prone to failures, but also the perception of other
      peoples needs is naturally limited. I needed a place to unfold research,
      maybe of the "cathedral" type that I described in my previous letter. I
      made the experience that the evolution of the Minciu Sodas ecosystem
      helped, but also sometimes put tremendous burden on my work as an
      investigator, by simply destroying contextuality again and again. This has
      its good side, because you learn that everything you create also can
      easily be destroyed and you should not put too much emphasis: like those
      people who build a house of cards that falls down again and again or a
      group of buddhist monks that draw images in or with sand, that the wind
      blows away. You learn; its strengthening your creative abilities, maybe
      even your intelligence and awareness.

      But it is not satisfactory. A culture can only be built if our work is
      allowed to be preserved.

      To give you one example:

      There are links all over the web that point to a page on
      Worknets/GlobalVillages about Regional Information Coaching

      it used to be

      but now you dont find this page any more. Not only does in not bring you
      to the linked page, but to the GlobalVillages top page, Simply because the
      address cannot be resolved any more.

      You would still find it at

      but this still carries traits of the previous formating in PMWiki.

      So all the links that I set in Dorfwiki or anywhere in the world to
      explain stuff by globalvillages.info are lost in the moment. That means,
      with one decision that you made to change the naming and the position of a
      domain in your information ecosystem you might have destroyed the work of
      other people months and years. Which not only leads to the fact that
      people do not find the linked information, but also consequently there is
      loss of reputation and opportunities around the information ecosystem. A
      simple decision to change and adapt on one side could have the effect of
      an elephant in the porcellain store who walks over hundreds of vases like
      they were simly earth, dust and sand and then expects people to spend
      years of their lives to mend the splinterings that occured in the move of
      a second.

      It is sometimes creative destruction, yes; but in fact it is also break of
      trust and negligeance of good will.

      I have begun to accept that and nevertheless act, support and plan with
      Minciu Sodas; I am sure that the methods of creative destruction also have
      their merits.

      The choice of Prowiki was done because there seemed to be an engine that
      supports individual, deep fractal subwikis. I suggested to Helmut Leitner,
      the developto go Opensource and make this tool available to developers. I
      am happy that you, Andrius, accepted this choice. But I found out that
      Helmut had an economic calculation that still would mean that other people
      should make money for him to have the economic means of further developing
      and supporting ProWiki. He did not really want to entrust the development
      to a community. And after he saw that this calculation would not work, he
      even gave up on renewing the versions on sourceforge and switched back to
      his proprietory mode, leaving a more or less unsuppported version for
      people to download on Sourceforge.

      This is a very critical situation; it requires us to reconsider the whole
      technical setting or be able to fork away and maintain the tool ourselves.
      I would really rather prefer the second solution, but it requires
      dedicated work of PERL-savvy people to help us.

      I have built on the assumption that we could solve this situation and
      started to think about the new wiki.

      That would be subject to some very clear rules like Wikipedia, some basic
      rules that are like the DNA of the whole System. I explained the idea in
      another letter, that you can have my.globalvillage.at combined with any
      location name, so the domains would be talking and easy and reliable, but
      each village could have a subwiki or even more than one. Fractality would
      be combined with clarity and structure. There would be elaborate metadata
      that could be made communicate with Google Maps or other applications, but
      also would form interesting overviews and tables in the Wiki itself.
      Thanks to all who replied positively to this idea.

      On the side of this we would start to experiment with more things:

      An online social networking system with built - in communication
      capabilities like video and audio chat. Ralf is working much with
      Asterisk, and we have seen some exciting developments. The same system
      could have groups, mailing lists, personalized profile pages. We would for
      example need this to organize Open Source Ecology in Europe. Maybe even
      globally. There is much of a danger of Vendor Lock In on NING and
      Facebook, so essential contents and lists should be preserved for the
      communities that created them. Forking and extracting conditions should be
      built in. I have not at least figured out the potentials and dangers of
      this. The Verndors currently also provide rules and security, so that we
      can focus on work. There are many hidden dangers in more open Systems, and
      I have also seen one system die in an instant because of the sudden death
      of its maintaier, the legendary Wolf Steinhauer.

      So finally that is the last issue I want to touch. The Minciu Sodas
      infrastructure is built mainly around individuals, and the concepts that
      hold the workgroups together are vaguer and secondary in comparison to the
      group leader idea. Which is fine in many ways, but I have begun to feel
      increasingly uncomfortable about these issues. We are all mortal, and I
      think in the second half of our life we should be working on diminuish our
      individuality and work on structure, that makes our work persist.

      My goal is to decouple the GlobalVillages idea from my person in a way. I
      might always be recognized as initiator and mentor, but I think it is
      important for me to care that the work takes a life of its own. The
      formation of the Globalvillages network is a good step, and I hope to come
      to the point where a loose network will turn into a virtual republic, a
      common good, based on a constitution.

      Structures and procedures are am important prerequisite to achieve that.

      I hope that in the coming month we will have much more clarity on that.
      For all these endavours I hope that a team around Ralf and you emerges
      that creates common structures and covenants

      In the meantime I repeat my invitation for the globalvillagers to the
      temporary gathering place on NING. I want to create an online magazine
      called globalvillages.org which should reach mainstream people and be
      managed like a traditional publication.
      At globalvillages.ning.com I want to assemble the board of contributors.

      At the same time, I hope as I said for a maximum of collaboration between
      Mincu Sodas and Globalvillages, and the maintainance of the fact that we
      are overlapping. The focus of Minciu Sodas should always be the people,
      the individuals and their creative development. Together we all will form
      a new culture. Forming a new culture goes ex definitione beyond the domain
      of a single individual or community. It is the procedures that emerge to
      host diversity and unity alike.

      There is much more going on currently. Michel Bauwens and other visitors
      of the Manchester conference are teaming up to form a consulting group to
      really strengthen the collaboration between the p2p world and the business
      world. The results from the Mornflake experiment will be very important
      parameters to develop models and procedures and patterns to follow.

      At the same time, the Open Hardware and production world is exploding.
      Some of us like Thomas Diener think about a "hybrid enterprise" that
      facilitates relations between users, producers, developers and even
      distributors of Open Source products. The project has the codename

      There will be several events and workshops on Solidarity Economy, which
      will also result in paid projects where I hope we can capitalize on our
      experiments in combining good content with geographical contextualisation
      and the mappings of needs and endavours.

      And now I will have to disappear for a while to finish two books and
      prepare for the Archangelsk challenge.

      All the best




      Pamela McLean's letter:

      Dear Franz and Andrius and everyone (Andrius, I started off just writing
      to Franz and everyone, but gradually I found my reply included discussion
      of relationships within MS, and so perhaps from the start I should really
      have written "in a different voice" - to both of you - but I did not
      realise that is how it would develop)
      Dear Franz - and everyone.

      Franz - I have been looking forward to your third letter. I wish you were
      back in London again so that we could meet and discuss it in depth.

      As it is, all I can do for now is simply acknowledge it, appreciate it,
      thank you for writing it, and pick up on just a few of the issues it

      I have not read any replies to your letters yet, and so this email is a
      response to your letters alone - especially letter 3 - which I will work
      through simply expressing some thoughts as I go.

      I like your expression the "Minciu Sodas family" - yes I think that is how
      I feel about it sometimes. In some ways it has been my university, but
      also it is like my family. Like in my real family experiences I feel
      closer to some people than others. I understand some more easily than
      others. In some situations I feel I can be helpful, in others I feel
      helpless. Sometimes I am delighted, inspired, amused or encouaged by what
      other people do or say, sometimes I am bewildered or exasperated - but -
      on the whole it is enriching to be part of it and I prefer to belong than
      to not belong.

      I like your theme of an information eco-system. It ties in with my
      interest in how ICT alters roles and relationships.

      You say "building an eco-system". Hmm. Building? Aren't eco-systems
      organic? I think we can destroy them, or we can try to act more
      positively. We can build systems that we hope will support the growth of
      an eco-system- but actually build an eco-system? I don't think so. Perhaps
      I have misunderstood.

      ref Village mapping - I want to discuss with you sometime how best to
      include the intertwined initiatives that Dadamac and Fantusam Foundation
      are are doing at Attachab Eco-village and the Knowledge Resource Centre,
      and online. We don't have a single location for an existing global village
      like the one I saw you descibe on an online video, but we do have most of
      the elements and the vision. I would like us to be part of your global
      village initiative.

      Ref 'MinciuSodas is positioning itself as a "live village" on the web '. I
      don't know about this, but it seems interesting.

      Ref "beginning to feel that something big is happening in the domain of
      the way we use the internet" Exactly so. I'm tempted to go deeply into
      that. No time now. Except in a very oversimplified way. It feels to me as
      if the 21st century is beginning to discover itself and is starting to
      find its feet. Initially the Internet was just "an add on" to the
      structures and systems of the 20th century. Now, increasingly systems and
      structures and communities are emerging which have been born within the
      Internet, and could never have come into being without it. They are the
      'true children' of the 21st century. At present it is like we live in two
      parallel worlds - the 20th century one, and the 21st century one.

      Ref " The good news... the bad news..." That seems to me to be part of the
      rise of the young 21st century and the hanging on of the old from the
      20th. - a bit like generation gap struggles.

      Ref paragraph touching on "the hidden costs of a declining market
      economy...using up all the credit that mother nature have given us and
      soon will have to declare bancrupcy."

      I see that too in terms of C20th V C21st, and competition V collaboration.
      I was very influenced by Gary Alexander's book E-Gaia - available as book
      or to download. http://earthconnected.net/earthconnected/eGaia.html

      Ref- new culture is based on communication, cooperation.. good
      design..creative unfolding of
      individual voluntary potentials...elimination of command and control out
      of our social operating system.

      Yes - something that comes up repeatedly in comparison of C20th and C21st
      9along with collaboration) is the chaotic nature of C21st systems, and the
      idea that we won't be living in a "top down" world. Some people describe
      it as "flat". Someone described it as "spiky". I relate to that - it is
      flat in the way so many of us who were excluded from top-down structures
      can now connect and be included, and it is spiky is the way that
      individuals can "raise something up" raise the visibility of something as
      if it was some kind of banner on a spike, and then others can see it and
      make connections.

      Ref "The central backbone of this new culture is the development of our means
      of communication" - I agree, and regarding "commnication" I think again of
      "ICT"as the foundation for C21st and I think of how the term "ICT -
      Information and Communication Technology" helps us to remember three
      important aspects:

      * Information - The information content of our communications
      * Communication - The human side of communication - the reason for it
      - people with a purpose who want/need the communication to happen
      * Technology - The combination of hardware, software, skills,
      training, infrastructre, and other resources that enables the
      technology to exist and function effectively.

      Developing our means of communication involves all three aspects - they
      are the firm base, like the three legs of a stool.

      Ref " formed by our perceptions and expressions." Agreed.

      Ref "the design of media and communication spaces, they will decide about
      what we will be able to think, to imagine and to create... experiments...
      confused .. precious time.. " Yes. The issues around that fascinate me.
      The influence of our online spaces, and our experiences there, the
      development of various cultures, sub-cultures, cultural norms etc.

      Ref The Minciu Sodas information Infrastructure ... experiment... radical
      vision...collaboration.. economic support structure.. rewarding open
      work... strenghten the weak... supporting their growth and abilities to
      contribute.. built on voluntary dictatorship... Andrius, as the single
      owner and director..questionable from many points of views, but it has
      indisputably led to some positive results that we cant deny."

      Yes - MS structure reminds me of an analysis of open source development
      that I heard at the Open Knowledge (OK)day in 2008, and I have also
      discussed with Vinay Gupta. People often point to Open Source development
      as the model for collaboration, but it lead by dictotors.

      OS development is seen as a model for collaboration, but it is a model
      which is hard to replicate in other situations - even those situations
      which might seem to be naturally more collaborative.

      I thought the reason was because writing code has very tight rules, and
      anything to do with computer programming has to be ultimately logical and
      binary. Therefore, it seemed to me, Open Source (OS) development would
      easily lend itself to a modular approach. However most of life is lived in
      a messy analogue kind of way, not a neat digital, binary, logical way, so
      anything that was more to do with human systems and less to do with
      computer systems would be hard to do in a collaborative way.

      However it was pointed out to me that OS development is not really
      collaborative, because it is typically lead by dictators, and also it is
      arguable that it attracts what Vinay describes as "alpha nurds" -
      extrememly intelligent people who are attracted by the intellectual
      challenge. In fact some could be attracted by the competitive element of
      writing the best code. They are not there because of an ethos of
      collaboration. I find this an interesting idea. It would help to explain
      why "warm fuzzy" democratic development does not easily fit into the OS
      development mould.

      If it is more than just an interesting idea then I think it offers us some
      clues about some of the tensions within Minciu Sodas. I think MS has some
      similarities to the OS development model - but it is dealing with people,
      and Andrius has gone out of his way to collect people who he describes as
      "independent thinkers". Inevitably we will be individualistic and "very
      analogue" - we will not fit comfortably in a system which is being run the
      way that works for OS development - with a very controlling style of
      leadership. We may want to collaborate with the person who happens to be
      the leader, but we will not want to collaborate inside the organisation if
      it is not a collaborative organisation.

      I find myself considering my own relationship with MS/Andrius. I find that
      if it is simply me (Pam) relating to Andrius then that is the easiest way
      to connect. Person to person we are fine. I enjoy his company, I am
      interested in his ideas. I admire many things about him. I do not always
      agree with what he says, but, so what. I often disagree with the people
      who I enjoy knowing. Disagreements can add interest. I like exploring
      ideas through lively debate. However I do know that while some of my
      friends "enjoy a good argument" with others it is best if I hold my
      tongue. With Andrius when I disagree strongly I usually simply remind him
      that just because I am silent it does not mean that I agree. With "Andrius
      and Pam" Andrius speaks for himself, and I speak for myself - or decide to
      just listen.

      However as "Pam in Minciu Sodas" it gets more difficult. If Andrius
      "speaks for Minciu Sodas" and says something about Mincu Sodas and its
      "indepenedent thinkers" that I do not agree with - then I have a problem,
      especially if it has been said (or written) to other people, not just to
      me, and if I feel Andrius assumes that I am included in his 'Minciu Sodas"
      statement. In that situation - which happens too often for comfort

      * Do I stay silent - which suggests that I agree? (Feels dishonest)
      * Do I disagree - but without explanation (Feels rude and
      unnecessarily confrontational)
      * Do I disagree and explain (I find Andrius is usually very willing to
      consider carefully a written explanation, and to respond logically to
      its points if they are well made - but l do not have the time to
      respond in that way everytime I see something "that I am not
      comfortable with". )
      * Do I simply withdraw until the issue is not longer relevant. (Not
      very satisfactory but sometimes it seems the only option)

      (NB during the time I was writing the above I realised I was "writing in
      the wrong voice" and should have been writing "to Andrius and Franz" - I
      had no intention of writing "to Franz about Andrius". I decided to add an
      explanatory note at the start and then continue in the same voice - I hope
      that is ok Andrius.)

      What about "Pam in Dadamac". Hmm, even more difficult. Individual people
      related to Dadamac may also be part of Minciu Sodas, but Minciu Sodas is
      (rightly) for individuals. Dadamac might collaborate with Minciu Sodas but
      it woud never "be part of MS". When I come to MS I come as myself,
      individually, not as my organisation. If there was confusion about that,
      there would be so much potentail for misunderstandings and culture

      I will skip over the next few paragraphs of letter 3 which start "So I
      went a long way with you and I am willing to continue this way." because I
      feel they are either very specific to Andrius, Franz and Global villages,
      or they are more general and overlap some of the points I have made above
      ref Andrius/MS and me.

      I have not contributed to the wiki as I do not like wikis for a number of
      reasons, so issues relating to changes there have not affected me.

      So jumping onwards Ref "We are all mortal, and I think in the second half
      of our life we should be working on diminuish our individuality and work
      on structure, that makes our work persist."
      That is interesting, and ties in with some of what I am trying to do with
      the online presence of Dadamac. I have been looking at the information
      flows within and around Dadamac (at present I am the only one who can
      "see" these flows because they have developed as a result of almost ten
      years work on the Internet connected with what I am now pulling together
      under the heading of Dadamac).

      I will not go into details here, but, to over simplify, i am concerned
      with designing a system that treats information in different ways for
      different people.It is about "pushing, parking, and pulling" information
      in ways that are designed around the personal needs of people within the
      organisation. Maybe the ideal system exists already, but if so I didn't
      know enough to go out and find it, so I had to experiment with what I had
      to hand. A main trigger for my investigations was dissatisfaction with the
      wiki we created for Teachers Talking in 2004, and my subsequent (and
      ongoing) experiments with sharing information in ways that were more
      appropriate to the needs of the people I was working with.

      As I am not a techie it has been a very slow and clumsy process, but I
      think it is "over the worst' now, and things will gradually become less
      invisible and easier to share with people. I hope this will lead to
      collboration - both for creating the system I need for Dadamac, and for
      working within Dadamac using the system as it develops and becomes robust
      and really user freindly. I see the planned Dadamac online presence as the
      C21st equivalent of the big head office - but because it is virtual
      everyone in Dadamac will belong there (with their own working spaces, and
      with meeting places for their groups, and where visitors are welcomed adn
      discover waht we do and it they wont to connect with us.etc.).I see the
      physical locations where Dadamac people are physically living/working as
      being like local branches - for example the Knowledge Resource Centre at
      Bayan Loco, the InfoCentre at Ago-Are, my home-office here (and locations
      elsewhere as people choose to get involved).

      As Dadamacs online space develops I hope it will become the online
      environment that I, and others, would choose to work in, and we will all
      work there in a collaborative but individualistic way. When I stop working
      there it won't make much difference to how anyone else continues with
      their work within Dadamac, because the system will hold everything
      together and enable it to function and grow. I hope lots of other people
      will be attracted to Dadamac doing the kinds of things that I do now, but
      more effectivley, with the structures helping us to work together in a
      collaborative way but with large amounts of individual choice and freedom.

      Ref "I might always be recognized as initiator and mentor, but I think it is
      important for me to care that the work takes a life of its own."

      I think we have similar visions.

      Ref "Structures and procedures are am important prerequisite to achieve
      Yes. Hmm. Perhaps we are coming back to the challenge of collaboration (as
      some people like to think they see it in OS development) but where the
      collaboration means freedom enabled by structures, and where analogue and
      digital approaches form a new kind fo collaborative ecosystem.

      Ref the rest of the letter - especially related to collaborations and the
      many exciting things going on currently - for myself regarding
      collaborations I am attracted towards the flat/spiky structures of C21st
      rather than the top-down ones that I associate with C20th. I agree there
      are lots of changes, lots of exciting things, lots of opportunities for
      collaboration, lots of areas of overlap. I am so grateful to Andrius and
      his Minciu Sodas family for helping me to get where I am now, and look
      forward to whatever collaborations we will develop in the time ahead.

      Now I need to stop reading and responding to MS letters again and get back
      to focussing on Dadamac and its collaborators again. I hope to meet up
      with people again on the next Thursday of the month in the chat room.

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