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Re: [learningfromeachother] Re: Pyramid of Peace one year later

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  • Pamela McLean
    Andrius and Everyone Regarding PoP one year later: it seems to me there are many issues mixed together here, and therefore there is confusion. The issues
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 22, 2009
      Andrius and Everyone

      Regarding PoP one year later: it seems to me there are many issues mixed together here, and therefore there is confusion. The issues include appropriate use of information, the financing of PoP, Andrius' financial situation, and wider issues relating to the world as it is, the world as we might like it to be, the role of corporations, access to resources etc.  

      I really do not have time at present to follow lists and contribute to them, but I am really concerned about the PoP one year on situation and so I want to contribute to the discussion even if it cannot be in the depth that I would like. I will write this email and then I will probably drop out of the discussion. I will hope to hear that there has been what I would regard as a satisfactory outcome.

      I was not able to attend the recent chat room discussion but my impression is that although some changes have been made the issue remains unresolved.

      ~ Immediate concerns ref information and safety

      My immediate  concern is that some people will be put at risk by the action Andrius is suggesting. Andrius, I do not understand how you can be considering this action of pushing out detailed information about PoP people and activities now in the way you have described. I undersatnd you have made soem changes, but that sensitive infromation is still included. If so, then that seems to me to run completely against the original spirit of PoP. Information that was exchanged during PoP was exchanged in highly unusual circumstances in order to save lives. It was exchanged openly so that it could be passed on rapidly. It was there so that people who needed to "pull" that information in order to help could do so. It was available for everyone involved, so that people could find it and use it for the greater good. To re-use that information now ("pushing" it out to people who are not actively supportive and are possibly antagonistic ) in a way that could endanger lives (or cause other problems) seems to go completely against the original objectives and spirit of PoP.

      I think I would not want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if sensitive information about people involved in PoP is "pushed" out to people now, or at any time in the future.

      I realise that going through all the PoP related information, to edit out sensitive information, would be a time consuming task. So, for now, it might be best to simply move the archive out of the public domain. It could be accessed by people ("researchers/reporters") who could be trusted to tell the story accurately in ways that would not cause any potential problems to those involved. Gradually the "researchers/reporters" could release information that was not sensitive. With the passing of time the information would all become less sensitive - but for now I think we should be protective rather than public.

      ~ Financing of PoP

      Regarding the financing of PoP, as I see it, what is done is done. What was given has been given. End of story.

      ~ Andrius financial situation

      I am concerned for Andrius and the financial situation he finds himself in because of the way he gave money "when there was none to give" and so he is now burdened with debt. Giving money that you don't really have is a continual problem for anyone who lives in a country where it is possible to get credit.  It is hard to say to someone who asks for help  "No, because I have no more money." when the banks are saying "Don't worry if you have no money. Use our money and pay it back later!"  At what point is it right to say  say "I will not give any more, no matter what, because I cannot see how I will pay back, in fact I cannot even see how I will pay the interest on the loan."

      I would like to help find Andrius a way to service his loans and repay his debts.

      ~ Andrius asking for reimbursement

      I do not agree that he should ask to be directly re-imbursed.

      Of course if Andrius wants to see it differently and wants to ask for re-imbursement from somewhere then that is for him to decide. It seems totally illogical to me. Unless someone has agreed to lend you money in advance I don't see how you can ask for reimbursement.

      I think I would not want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if Andrius decides to ask for "reimbursement" for Minciu Sodas.

      I am not sure if I would want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if Andrius decides to ask for "reimbursement" for himself. If that is his decision then I will not feel confident that I still respect his decision making.

      ~ Wider issues relating to the world as it is, the world as we might like it to be,

      There are wider issues in this discussion relating to the world as it is and the world as we might like it to be. I agree that there are many changes that we might like to see, especially regarding how resources are made available to people who need them, but I do not have time to explore those issues just now.

      The closest I can get to those issues is simply to look at the gap between the world-as-it-is and the world-we-might-like-to-see and how we might reduce the gap . I don't see that asking for reimbursement for Andrius/PoP would do anything positive in reducing the gap. In fact I think it such a bizarre suggestion that it would be a backward step. The suggestion itself would probably increase the apparent distance between Minciu Sodas and outsiders in a negative way. It would reduce the credibility of Minciu Sodas as an organisation that outsiders could take seriously and work with. We need the help of outsiders if we are to narrow the gap between the  world-as-it-is and the world-we-might-like-to-see.

      ~ Corporations and access to resources

      As I understand it, people in organisations can only do things that the organsation is set up to do. Making retrospective payments to individuals or organsiations that have been invovled in peacemaking activities or other sociallly beneficial activities seems way off what they are supposed to be doing. 

      I recommend watching the film The Corporation (which examines the nature of Corporations) before considering approaching any.  (Basically the film explores how corporations  are set up legally, and how they behave, and concludes that if "The Corporation" was a person it would by a psychopath.) There is little point in "appealing to the better nature" of a psychopath.

      It is arguable that some corporations are changing in response to external and internal pressures and are becoming more ecologically and socially responsible. As that change happens perhaps there may be opportunities for Minciu Sodas to engage with corporations, but only if Minciu Sodas is taken seriously - and asking for remimbursement for PoP activites from corporations will, in my judgement, undermine any chance of being taken seriously.

      I think if Minciu Sodas does want to engage with compnaies then it might do better to make some approach through an appropriate Corporate Social Responsibility programme, but with an eye to the future, not the past.

      ~ Conclusion

      Andrius, I hope very much that you will remove sensitive information from the public domain. I also hope you will not go ahead with the idea of asking for reimbursement for PoP (neither for MS nor for youself). I have explained above that it is possible I may not feel able to stay in Minciu Sodas, depending on what happens over PoP. I will hope to be at the chat room for the First Thursday in March, unless I hear that you have acted over PoP in ways that I con't support. I am not following Minciu Sodas threads  at present as I do not have time for groups, so I may not see further disucssion about this issue.

      I hope that even if I leave Minciu Sodas you and I will remain on good terms with each other as individuals, and that I will continue to be incontact with other people from Minciu Sodas. Whatever the outcome I will continue to appreciate all the opportunites for learning and meeting people which I have enjoyed here. Until now I have been very happy to be associatedd with Minciu Sodas and,whatever happens in the future, I will continue to speak highly of what it has done in the past.

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