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Re: [learningfromeachother] Re: Pyramid of Peace one year later

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  • Kennedy Owino
    Hi Andrius, Andrius i admire your great leadership abilities and laud your efforts for having reached out to Koffi Annan and attracting his attention towards
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 14, 2009
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      Hi Andrius,

      Andrius i admire your great leadership abilities and laud your efforts for having reached out to Koffi Annan and attracting his attention towards the efforts we applied through the Pyramid of Peace.
      We trully helped prevent a genocide in Kenya and i am more than humbled for the compassionate hearts People in other countries, Uganda, Tanzania, Cameroon, Europe, America and others not mentioned developed for Kenya.
      I believe God has a reward for our charitable deeds, human beings can't compesate us enough for what we did.

      I have been concerned about this issue of re-imbursement, and i would also like to add my personal voice.
      It may be right to publicize and get re-imbursed for the efforts that were exerted through the Pyramid Of Peace during the Turmoil period in Kenya, but my sober conscience makes me apprehensive and gives me more to fear about to be involved in this.
      There were concerted efforts  both Locally and Internationally and i don't want to speak on behalf of any person.
      My opinion therefore is that, whatever i did or my actions to stop more deaths in Kenya was out of my own volition and out of the spirit of patriotism to save my heart, my friends and family lives, and save my country from being a statistics of war ravaged countries.
      Many people died and many placed their lives at risk in the process of contributing towards averting violence.
      I risked too, but i am lucky i survived, i can't compare to many who went to more risky limits than i did or those who died.
      There are Heros and Heroines who deserve to be awarded (compesation to me sounds commercial).
      In the minds of others, Re-imbursement would be good, and would help PoP or MSL further it's activities but i request to be withdrawn from any Publicity going on.

      My reasons are clear;
      I don't feel good that re-imbursement is requested for, yet there are thousand of victims still pathetically languishing their lives in Internally Displaced Peoples' camps.
      The Government nor the Co-operate Organisations (being asked for Re-imbursement) are taking no stern measures to address this or to help the victims.
      Why can't we petition the Government and the Co-operate Society to rally funds to help the IDPs?

      At one time, i risked my life by travelling under disguised identity to an area where my tribe was being persecuted and executed in day broad light.
      "They" thought i was one of them and thus others and me, managed to convince "them" to unblock the road blocks.
      The sad killing episodes  that they executed still totures me.
      Kenya is in a healing state, but mild tensions still exist.
      There is Heated Politics doing rounds for the perpetrators of the violence to be investigated in a locally set tribunal or taken to the Hague.
      I value my life most now than anything... i don't want to offer any deep or further explanations.
      I don't want to be consulted or asked to offer my views (in the public Domain/Glare) wether the co-operate organisations - funnily enough managed under deep political influence- would Re-imburse PoP.
      I don't want to campaign for that either, there are more deserving areas requiring my energy.
      Please, i ask cordially that my name and contacts (e-mail or phone number) be taken off from the Article being publicised.

      I wish you all the best.

      Peace,

      Ken Owino

      --- On Sat, 2/14/09, ricardoolpc <ricardoolpc@...> wrote:
      From: ricardoolpc <ricardoolpc@...>
      Subject: [learningfromeachother] Re: Pyramid of Peace one year later
      To: learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 12:48 AM

      Hi Andrius
      Samwel emailed me to say he's not happy with hyperlinking
      to his articles either. He's concerned about people mis-using his
      research and attracting hackers and scammer. I said he should email
      you to say preceisely what he would like you to do, and what
      articles he is talking about.

      I've taken a look at the main Pyramid of Peace page...

      http://www.pyramido fpeace.net/

      I have to say that the more I look at this, the more concerned I am
      about the whole idea of publicising Pyramid of Peace to the wider
      world and more specifically to the Kenyan Business Community and
      asking for contributions/ reimbursement of money spent.

      One concern is that the Kenyan Business Community and Political
      community are probably linked together quite closely. It could all
      get a bit political.

      On the main Pyramid of Peace page, there are lists of names, phone
      numbers and email addresses for MS Member in the UK/Kenya/etc, which
      are completely at odds with most people's recommendations
      on 'staying safe on the internet' (from hackers/scammers, etc).
      Also, any links to Worknets or publicising our PoP Letters more
      widely would lead hackers/scammers to the same details and personal
      profiles and photos.

      Promoting peace-making through inspiring stories is a noble aim, but
      in my opinion, I think it's time for a major consultation exercise
      with all the people involved, to see whether they approve of this
      whole idea, and how much detail they want released.

      There are many different ways to consult people. Would it be
      possible to make it the subject of a Thursday chat, for example?

      It may be better to have a straight-forward story page, without any
      hyperlinks to other sites like Worknets and without contact details
      for individual MS Members.

      Ricardo

      --- In learningfromeachoth er@yahoogroups. com, ms@... wrote:
      >
      > Hi Ricardo,
      >
      > Thank you for raising your concerns. I invite others too, as well.
      >
      > I've removed your name from the "online team" on the right side
      bar. In
      > the timeline down the center of the page, I replaced Ricardo with
      R. So
      > Ricardo shouldn't appear anywhere on the page.
      >
      > Your name does still appear in letters and wiki pages that we link
      to.
      > Ricardo also appears on our audit report
      > http://www.pyramido fpeace.net/ timebanks/ report.php
      >
      > Is that fine? Please let me know. We can make more changes as
      > circumstances change. Also, you can edit the main page, it is
      based on
      > our wiki pages:
      > http://www.worknets .org/wiki. cgi?PyramidOfPea ceTimeline
      > http://www.worknets .org/wiki. cgi?KenyaTeam
      > http://www.worknets .org/wiki. cgi?OnlineTeam
      >
      > I will write more separately about my intentions. I acted pretty
      much as
      > an individual then and now. I didn't consult with anybody
      regarding the
      > $10,000 that I incurred in debt or the two months that I worked
      full time.
      > I'm working openly so that people can consult me and correct me
      as they
      > like along the way.
      >
      > Thank you, Ricardo!
      >
      > Andrius
      >
      > Andrius Kulikauskas
      > Minciu Sodas
      > http://www.ms. lt
      > ms@...
      >
      > ------------ --------- ---------
      >
      > Hi Andrius
      > can I raise an issue that is concerning me a little? You
      > mentioned publicising the story of Pyramid of Peace to the Kenyan
      > Business Community, in the hopes of getting some re-imbursement of
      > money spent. Whether or not this actually works and you (MS)
      receive
      > any money, the issue that concerns me is whether you've consulted
      > widely with the MS Members involved to see whether they want you to
      > do this or not.
      >
      > >From my point of view, I prefer any small financial contribution I
      > made (for airtime etc) to be low-key and discrete. I don't want it
      > promoting widely in letters and articles. I don't know whether
      other
      > MS Members feel have the same or different views on this.
      >
      > Could I at least make one small request? In any history of the
      > Pyramid of Peace that you publish on public websites or send to the
      > Kenyan Business Community, I'd prefer it if you didn't hyper-link
      my
      > username Ricardo to my Worknets Profile page. I don't want my
      > Worknets pages to be used for 'publishing to the whole world'. I
      > prefer to use my Worknets pages as a 'work-space for ideas in
      > development' . In that sense, they are a bit like an engineer's
      > notebook or 'project documents', shared with colleagues. That's
      just
      > the way I prefer to use Worknets. Other users may use their pages
      in
      > a completely different way, trying to get maximum publicity for
      > projects. It's just a question of personal preference.
      >
      > It raises interesting issues to do with 'putting something in the
      > public domain' and permissions. Does putting something in the
      public
      > domain mean that other people can publicise things or 'push' your
      > pages at other people, such as the Kenyan Business Community,
      > without checking with the author? Really, I'm just asking to be
      > consulted before any 'unexpected uses' are made.
      >
      > In fact, rather than just remove the hyperlink to Worknets, I'd
      > prefer my name not to appear at all in the history of the Pyramid
      of
      > Peace, if you publicise it to the Kenyan Business Community or
      > similar groups. Is that possible, Andrius, or have you already
      > published it?
      >
      > I hope this doesn't sound like I'm criticising you. The tone
      doesn't
      > always come across well in writing. I'm really just trying to set
      > out how I'd like the information to be used.
      >
      > Have a nice day.
      >
      > Ricardo
      >


    • Pamela McLean
      Dear Andrius and Everyone. I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted my attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 18, 2009
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        Dear Andrius and Everyone.

        I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted my attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the voices expressing concerns:

        I would be  pleased to see the general story of PoP known more widely - but definitely without any sensitive information.

        I strongly share the concerns expressed about the appropriate ways of telling the PoP story. Initially I was very pleased to see all the information brought together, because I think the story is worth telling. Gathering everything together is a useful first stage in telling the story accurately, but accurate telling is not the same as telling everything. I agree absolutely that it would be completely inappropriate to push any sensitive information out to people who might use it wrongly. I would like to see much of the information that was shared during the turmoil removed from the public domain to protect the people involved, as soon as possible. This is urgent and important.

        I am also concerned about Andrius' financial situation. He responded with total commitment when there was a need for money and nowhere near enough coming in. He now has large debts because he funded so much of PoP personally. I think PoP was an amazing achievemnt and I feel very privelaged to have been connected in some small way with the courageous and decisive people who were active in PoP.

        I would be very pleased if a result of telling the story of PoP was to bring Andrius paid work. I would like to see him with enough appropriate well-paid work to more than pay his debts.

        However I am not happy with the idea of "asking for reimbursement". It seems completely inapporpriate for a variety of reasons.

        Of course if Andrius wants to ask for reimbursement then obviously it is a personal choice - but if he does  then I think it should be done on a personal basis (ie Andrius asking for Andrius) not "for the MS lab".

        Andrius I respect so much of what you do, and I appreciate the opportunities you have given me within Minciu Sodas for personal growth, but, as you know, I do not always agree with you. Certainly this is an area where I do not agree. I add my voice to those who are asking you to rethink, to remove sensitive information, to not ask for reimbursement, and to not "speak for everyone"   when you are really speaking for yourself, and perhaps assuming that everyone will be in agreement.

        Pam


      • ricardoolpc
        Hi Andrius I said I d email you after our chat today about the issue of reimbursement, but I ll reply here instead, so everyone can see it. If you look at the
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 19, 2009
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          Hi Andrius
          I said I'd email you after our chat today about the issue
          of reimbursement, but I'll reply here instead, so everyone can see
          it.

          If you look at the messages in this thread and at Janet's message in
          LFEO group (link below), you'll see that Pam, Janet, Ken Owino,
          Samwel and I are not happy with the idea of asking the Kenyan
          Business Community for reimbursement of donations made during the
          Pyramid of Peace and the election violence. As I explained this
          morning, many of us think it could undermine good will and
          relationship with other organisations that have been carefully built
          up. It would change the way people look at PoP as a group and at
          individuals. I think the chances of any businesses giving any money
          are so low that it's not worth taking the risk. Janet and Ken said
          that even if you did manage to raise any money, they would prefer it
          to go to IDP Camps.

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learningfromeachother/message/2538

          I know you contributed more than most people in monetary terms. I
          like Pam's suggestion of earning money by MS working for the Kenyan
          business community. That sounds far more acceptable than asking for
          compensation/reimbursement.

          During the election violence, you provided strong leadership to
          implement PoP. Now that things are a bit more peaceful, I think
          decisions that affect the reputations and relationships of all the
          PoP members should be more democratic and taken after wide
          consultation.

          For those people not at the chat today, I suggested that even a 51%
          democratic majority decision isn't really adequate. If asking for
          reimbursement would damage individual people's relationships with
          other organisations or projects, then the inividuals should be able
          to veto it.

          The other issues (publishing contact details and hyperlinking to
          Worknets) are of lower importance, but still fairly important.

          I don't know whether many people are particularly concerned about
          their contact details being published and accessible to spammers,
          begging letters, etc. It would be useful to have a consultation
          exercise. I just noticed that you had included all the names, phone
          numbers and email addresses of PoP members on the main PoP page. As
          I said this morning, it may be better to just provide one PoP
          contact email for readers of 'The history of PoP' to contact.

          During the election violence, people were desperate to get help and
          they published their own contact details in yahoo group messages or
          worknets (which they may wish to reconsider now) and they may have
          published other people's contact details, without taking the time to
          ask permission.

          Although people may have thought they understood the implications of
          putting messages in the public domain, now may be a good time to
          have some discussions and review any possible problems. I said that
          I prefer to work in a low-profile way, and didn't expect my worknets
          pages to be hyperlinked to high-profile pages like the story of PoP.

          http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/

          These issues aren't just Intellectual Property Rights issues (what
          people are 'allowed' to do with your info). It's more a question of
          observing normal, everyday courtesies and asking permission ("May I
          do such and such with the information you posted").

          All these issues are probably of more importance to people working
          on the ground in Kenya than to me in the UK.

          Ricardo


          --- In learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com, Pamela McLean
          <pam54321@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Andrius and Everyone.
          >
          > I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted
          my
          > attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the voices
          > expressing concerns:
          >
          > I would be pleased to see the general story of PoP known more
          widely - but
          > definitely without any sensitive information.
          >
          > I strongly share the concerns expressed about the appropriate ways
          of
          > telling the PoP story. Initially I was very pleased to see all the
          > information brought together, because I think the story is worth
          telling.
          > Gathering everything together is a useful first stage in telling
          the story
          > accurately, but accurate telling is not the same as telling
          everything. I
          > agree absolutely that it would be completely inappropriate to push
          any
          > sensitive information out to people who might use it wrongly. I
          would like
          > to see much of the information that was shared during the turmoil
          removed
          > from the public domain to protect the people involved, as soon as
          possible.
          > This is urgent and important.
          >
          > I am also concerned about Andrius' financial situation. He
          responded with
          > total commitment when there was a need for money and nowhere near
          enough
          > coming in. He now has large debts because he funded so much of PoP
          > personally. I think PoP was an amazing achievemnt and I feel very
          privelaged
          > to have been connected in some small way with the courageous and
          decisive
          > people who were active in PoP.
          >
          > I would be very pleased if a result of telling the story of PoP
          was to bring
          > Andrius paid work. I would like to see him with enough appropriate
          well-paid
          > work to more than pay his debts.
          >
          > However I am not happy with the idea of "asking for
          reimbursement". It seems
          > completely inapporpriate for a variety of reasons.
          >
          > Of course if Andrius wants to ask for reimbursement then obviously
          it is a
          > personal choice - but if he does then I think it should be done
          on a
          > personal basis (ie Andrius asking for Andrius) not "for the MS
          lab".
          >
          > Andrius I respect so much of what you do, and I appreciate the
          opportunities
          > you have given me within Minciu Sodas for personal growth, but, as
          you know,
          > I do not always agree with you. Certainly this is an area where I
          do not
          > agree. I add my voice to those who are asking you to rethink, to
          remove
          > sensitive information, to not ask for reimbursement, and to
          not "speak for
          > everyone" when you are really speaking for yourself, and perhaps
          assuming
          > that everyone will be in agreement.
          >
          > Pam
          >
        • Peter Burgess
          Dear Colleagues Thank you all ... this is a very important issue and conversation. I am very much aware that I do not know enough about fund raising ... but it
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 19, 2009
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            Dear Colleagues

            Thank you all ... this is a very important issue and conversation.

            I am very much aware that I do not know enough about fund raising ...
            but it would appear that fund raising is much more about the "sizzle"
            than the "steak"!

            The strategy for fund raising and the strategy for doing things of
            value are quite different and should probably be kept quite separate.
            Certainly they should not be co-mingled and make both lose value.

            In the case of some of our initiatives, co-mingling can create danger.
            Some of what we are trying to do is "hard ball"! About 2 years ago a
            Nigerian colleague who was making progress exposing large scale
            corruption within the Nigerian government health budget got killed ...
            who killed him ... why he was killed ... has never been explained. But
            the point is that we need to make sure that our work does not put
            people at undue risk. My original plans to have "open" information has
            been modified because of this.

            The PoP story should give a very good platform for fund-raising ...
            but the story is going to compete with thousands of other stories that
            are already in play ... and the PoP story has to be linked to a sexy
            and credible organization. I don't know how to do this ... but I would
            argue that WE might think ms has these characteristics ... but that is
            not what matters. The question is what do people with funds want to
            see organizationally.

            Peter
            ____________
            Peter Burgess
            The Transparency and Accountability Network: Tr-Ac-Net in New York
            www.tr-ac-net.org
            Community Analytics (CA)
            Integrated Malaria Management Consortium (IMMC)
            917 432 1191 or 212 772 6918 peterbnyc@...



            On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:05 PM, ricardoolpc <ricardoolpc@...> wrote:
            > Hi Andrius
            > I said I'd email you after our chat today about the issue
            > of reimbursement, but I'll reply here instead, so everyone can see
            > it.
            >
            > If you look at the messages in this thread and at Janet's message in
            > LFEO group (link below), you'll see that Pam, Janet, Ken Owino,
            > Samwel and I are not happy with the idea of asking the Kenyan
            > Business Community for reimbursement of donations made during the
            > Pyramid of Peace and the election violence. As I explained this
            > morning, many of us think it could undermine good will and
            > relationship with other organisations that have been carefully built
            > up. It would change the way people look at PoP as a group and at
            > individuals. I think the chances of any businesses giving any money
            > are so low that it's not worth taking the risk. Janet and Ken said
            > that even if you did manage to raise any money, they would prefer it
            > to go to IDP Camps.
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learningfromeachother/message/2538
            >
            > I know you contributed more than most people in monetary terms. I
            > like Pam's suggestion of earning money by MS working for the Kenyan
            > business community. That sounds far more acceptable than asking for
            > compensation/reimbursement.
            >
            > During the election violence, you provided strong leadership to
            > implement PoP. Now that things are a bit more peaceful, I think
            > decisions that affect the reputations and relationships of all the
            > PoP members should be more democratic and taken after wide
            > consultation.
            >
            > For those people not at the chat today, I suggested that even a 51%
            > democratic majority decision isn't really adequate. If asking for
            > reimbursement would damage individual people's relationships with
            > other organisations or projects, then the inividuals should be able
            > to veto it.
            >
            > The other issues (publishing contact details and hyperlinking to
            > Worknets) are of lower importance, but still fairly important.
            >
            > I don't know whether many people are particularly concerned about
            > their contact details being published and accessible to spammers,
            > begging letters, etc. It would be useful to have a consultation
            > exercise. I just noticed that you had included all the names, phone
            > numbers and email addresses of PoP members on the main PoP page. As
            > I said this morning, it may be better to just provide one PoP
            > contact email for readers of 'The history of PoP' to contact.
            >
            > During the election violence, people were desperate to get help and
            > they published their own contact details in yahoo group messages or
            > worknets (which they may wish to reconsider now) and they may have
            > published other people's contact details, without taking the time to
            > ask permission.
            >
            > Although people may have thought they understood the implications of
            > putting messages in the public domain, now may be a good time to
            > have some discussions and review any possible problems. I said that
            > I prefer to work in a low-profile way, and didn't expect my worknets
            > pages to be hyperlinked to high-profile pages like the story of PoP.
            >
            > http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/
            >
            > These issues aren't just Intellectual Property Rights issues (what
            > people are 'allowed' to do with your info). It's more a question of
            > observing normal, everyday courtesies and asking permission ("May I
            > do such and such with the information you posted").
            >
            > All these issues are probably of more importance to people working
            > on the ground in Kenya than to me in the UK.
            >
            > Ricardo
            >
            > --- In learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com, Pamela McLean
            >
            > <pam54321@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Dear Andrius and Everyone.
            >>
            >> I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted
            > my
            >> attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the voices
            >> expressing concerns:
            >>
            >> I would be pleased to see the general story of PoP known more
            > widely - but
            >> definitely without any sensitive information.
            >>
            >> I strongly share the concerns expressed about the appropriate ways
            > of
            >> telling the PoP story. Initially I was very pleased to see all the
            >> information brought together, because I think the story is worth
            > telling.
            >> Gathering everything together is a useful first stage in telling
            > the story
            >> accurately, but accurate telling is not the same as telling
            > everything. I
            >> agree absolutely that it would be completely inappropriate to push
            > any
            >> sensitive information out to people who might use it wrongly. I
            > would like
            >> to see much of the information that was shared during the turmoil
            > removed
            >> from the public domain to protect the people involved, as soon as
            > possible.
            >> This is urgent and important.
            >>
            >> I am also concerned about Andrius' financial situation. He
            > responded with
            >> total commitment when there was a need for money and nowhere near
            > enough
            >> coming in. He now has large debts because he funded so much of PoP
            >> personally. I think PoP was an amazing achievemnt and I feel very
            > privelaged
            >> to have been connected in some small way with the courageous and
            > decisive
            >> people who were active in PoP.
            >>
            >> I would be very pleased if a result of telling the story of PoP
            > was to bring
            >> Andrius paid work. I would like to see him with enough appropriate
            > well-paid
            >> work to more than pay his debts.
            >>
            >> However I am not happy with the idea of "asking for
            > reimbursement". It seems
            >> completely inapporpriate for a variety of reasons.
            >>
            >> Of course if Andrius wants to ask for reimbursement then obviously
            > it is a
            >> personal choice - but if he does then I think it should be done
            > on a
            >> personal basis (ie Andrius asking for Andrius) not "for the MS
            > lab".
            >>
            >> Andrius I respect so much of what you do, and I appreciate the
            > opportunities
            >> you have given me within Minciu Sodas for personal growth, but, as
            > you know,
            >> I do not always agree with you. Certainly this is an area where I
            > do not
            >> agree. I add my voice to those who are asking you to rethink, to
            > remove
            >> sensitive information, to not ask for reimbursement, and to
            > not "speak for
            >> everyone" when you are really speaking for yourself, and perhaps
            > assuming
            >> that everyone will be in agreement.
            >>
            >> Pam
            >>
            >
            >
          • Pamela McLean
            Andrius and Everyone Regarding PoP one year later: it seems to me there are many issues mixed together here, and therefore there is confusion. The issues
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 22, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Andrius and Everyone

              Regarding PoP one year later: it seems to me there are many issues mixed together here, and therefore there is confusion. The issues include appropriate use of information, the financing of PoP, Andrius' financial situation, and wider issues relating to the world as it is, the world as we might like it to be, the role of corporations, access to resources etc.  

              I really do not have time at present to follow lists and contribute to them, but I am really concerned about the PoP one year on situation and so I want to contribute to the discussion even if it cannot be in the depth that I would like. I will write this email and then I will probably drop out of the discussion. I will hope to hear that there has been what I would regard as a satisfactory outcome.

              I was not able to attend the recent chat room discussion but my impression is that although some changes have been made the issue remains unresolved.

              ~ Immediate concerns ref information and safety

              My immediate  concern is that some people will be put at risk by the action Andrius is suggesting. Andrius, I do not understand how you can be considering this action of pushing out detailed information about PoP people and activities now in the way you have described. I undersatnd you have made soem changes, but that sensitive infromation is still included. If so, then that seems to me to run completely against the original spirit of PoP. Information that was exchanged during PoP was exchanged in highly unusual circumstances in order to save lives. It was exchanged openly so that it could be passed on rapidly. It was there so that people who needed to "pull" that information in order to help could do so. It was available for everyone involved, so that people could find it and use it for the greater good. To re-use that information now ("pushing" it out to people who are not actively supportive and are possibly antagonistic ) in a way that could endanger lives (or cause other problems) seems to go completely against the original objectives and spirit of PoP.

              I think I would not want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if sensitive information about people involved in PoP is "pushed" out to people now, or at any time in the future.

              I realise that going through all the PoP related information, to edit out sensitive information, would be a time consuming task. So, for now, it might be best to simply move the archive out of the public domain. It could be accessed by people ("researchers/reporters") who could be trusted to tell the story accurately in ways that would not cause any potential problems to those involved. Gradually the "researchers/reporters" could release information that was not sensitive. With the passing of time the information would all become less sensitive - but for now I think we should be protective rather than public.

              ~ Financing of PoP

              Regarding the financing of PoP, as I see it, what is done is done. What was given has been given. End of story.

              ~ Andrius financial situation

              I am concerned for Andrius and the financial situation he finds himself in because of the way he gave money "when there was none to give" and so he is now burdened with debt. Giving money that you don't really have is a continual problem for anyone who lives in a country where it is possible to get credit.  It is hard to say to someone who asks for help  "No, because I have no more money." when the banks are saying "Don't worry if you have no money. Use our money and pay it back later!"  At what point is it right to say  say "I will not give any more, no matter what, because I cannot see how I will pay back, in fact I cannot even see how I will pay the interest on the loan."

              I would like to help find Andrius a way to service his loans and repay his debts.

              ~ Andrius asking for reimbursement

              I do not agree that he should ask to be directly re-imbursed.

              Of course if Andrius wants to see it differently and wants to ask for re-imbursement from somewhere then that is for him to decide. It seems totally illogical to me. Unless someone has agreed to lend you money in advance I don't see how you can ask for reimbursement.

              I think I would not want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if Andrius decides to ask for "reimbursement" for Minciu Sodas.

              I am not sure if I would want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if Andrius decides to ask for "reimbursement" for himself. If that is his decision then I will not feel confident that I still respect his decision making.

              ~ Wider issues relating to the world as it is, the world as we might like it to be,

              There are wider issues in this discussion relating to the world as it is and the world as we might like it to be. I agree that there are many changes that we might like to see, especially regarding how resources are made available to people who need them, but I do not have time to explore those issues just now.

              The closest I can get to those issues is simply to look at the gap between the world-as-it-is and the world-we-might-like-to-see and how we might reduce the gap . I don't see that asking for reimbursement for Andrius/PoP would do anything positive in reducing the gap. In fact I think it such a bizarre suggestion that it would be a backward step. The suggestion itself would probably increase the apparent distance between Minciu Sodas and outsiders in a negative way. It would reduce the credibility of Minciu Sodas as an organisation that outsiders could take seriously and work with. We need the help of outsiders if we are to narrow the gap between the  world-as-it-is and the world-we-might-like-to-see.

              ~ Corporations and access to resources

              As I understand it, people in organisations can only do things that the organsation is set up to do. Making retrospective payments to individuals or organsiations that have been invovled in peacemaking activities or other sociallly beneficial activities seems way off what they are supposed to be doing. 

              I recommend watching the film The Corporation (which examines the nature of Corporations) before considering approaching any.  (Basically the film explores how corporations  are set up legally, and how they behave, and concludes that if "The Corporation" was a person it would by a psychopath.) There is little point in "appealing to the better nature" of a psychopath.

              It is arguable that some corporations are changing in response to external and internal pressures and are becoming more ecologically and socially responsible. As that change happens perhaps there may be opportunities for Minciu Sodas to engage with corporations, but only if Minciu Sodas is taken seriously - and asking for remimbursement for PoP activites from corporations will, in my judgement, undermine any chance of being taken seriously.

              I think if Minciu Sodas does want to engage with compnaies then it might do better to make some approach through an appropriate Corporate Social Responsibility programme, but with an eye to the future, not the past.

              ~ Conclusion

              Andrius, I hope very much that you will remove sensitive information from the public domain. I also hope you will not go ahead with the idea of asking for reimbursement for PoP (neither for MS nor for youself). I have explained above that it is possible I may not feel able to stay in Minciu Sodas, depending on what happens over PoP. I will hope to be at the chat room for the First Thursday in March, unless I hear that you have acted over PoP in ways that I con't support. I am not following Minciu Sodas threads  at present as I do not have time for groups, so I may not see further disucssion about this issue.

              I hope that even if I leave Minciu Sodas you and I will remain on good terms with each other as individuals, and that I will continue to be incontact with other people from Minciu Sodas. Whatever the outcome I will continue to appreciate all the opportunites for learning and meeting people which I have enjoyed here. Until now I have been very happy to be associatedd with Minciu Sodas and,whatever happens in the future, I will continue to speak highly of what it has done in the past.
               
              Pam


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