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Pyramid of Peace one year later

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  • ms@ms.lt
    Today I worked more on our Pyramid of Peace website http://www.pyramidofpeace.net I ve set it up so that it draws from three pages at our wiki:
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 8, 2009
      Today I worked more on our Pyramid of Peace website
      http://www.pyramidofpeace.net I've set it up so that it draws from three
      pages at our wiki:
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceTimeline
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceKenyaTeam
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceOnlineTeam
      This makes it easy to update the pages with more material, images, etc.

      You'll see that I'm choosing excerpts from letters and organizing them
      according to a timeline. I'm going through the letters I wrote or sent
      (about a third of the 3,000 that we wrote). I'm highlighting excerpts
      that bring out the impact of our peacemaker's operations on the ground, of
      our strategic leadership, and of our innovative ideas. Please let me know
      of any episodes or excerpts to include that I've overlooked. I also look
      forward to adding photos. If anybody would like to help, please let us
      know!

      I'm doing this encouraged by Kofi Annan's supportiveness at the Open Davos
      Forum. He told me that he would forward my letter to the Kenyan business
      community. I will seek their help that global corporations pay us for the
      work we did to avert genocide, which they should have done given they have
      so many more resources than we do. We documented about $27,000 of
      contributions through Minciu Sodas (of which I contributed about $10,000
      and am now paying 17% annual interest on that). Some in our network sent
      money or airtime directly, and if they can document that, it might total
      $50,000. I think that we should be paid like the corporate workers (or
      firemen, policemen, military, peacemakers) who would have done our work.
      I think it would be proper that they pay me $8,000 per month for the work
      I did those two months. I wrote about one-third of our letters so it
      would be simple to ask for $50,000 for our online team's work and divide
      that proportionately. So I will ask $100,000 total for our online team's
      work and contributions. (Imagine, what can a military accomplish for
      $100,000 ?) Similarly, I wonder what corporate managers, workers,
      policemen, firemen, military officers in Kenya earn and calculate how much
      to distribute to our 100 Kenyan peacemakers, some of whom worked full-time
      and some part-time. It would be helpful to know and to calculate an
      estimate. It's very constructive that we be replenished, that those with
      resources grow motivated to apply them responsibly, and that we be able to
      apply ourselves with new vigor.

      As you remember, we had many gripping stories, heroic adventures that
      inspired us to believe in peacemaking. We have enough tales for an epic.
      Simpler than that, I find it moving to simply read aloud the excerpts. I
      think that it could be an inspiring dramatic work. I ask Dennis Kimambo
      and Fred Kayiwa and Kennedy Owino and all to think if that might be of
      creative interest? We might do such a reading in London.

      I've reserved a ticket for Rachel Wambui Kungu to come to London for about
      two weeks for our WorkNets / COMMUNIA meetings. We spoke also that we
      could write a booklet of self-standing lessons for "fighting peacefully"
      where each lesson is a practical problem + a deep idea + many
      illustrations. I've started work on such learning materials for Algebra
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?ClassicMathProblems

      Today I chatted with Lucas Gonzalez who is our network's expert on
      pandemic flu. I showed our Pyramid of Peace work and asked if our
      approach of "looking at everything from our enemy's point of view" might
      be helpful? If we might organize global teams for some client to help with
      flu pandemic preparedness and response? I share our chat

      Andrius

      Andrius Kulikauskas
      Minciu Sodas
      http://www.ms.lt
      ms@...

      ---------

      [19:53:20] Andrius Kulikauskas: Hola Lucas, how are you? I invite you to
      look at our Pyramid of Peace http://www.pyramidofpeace.net which shows how
      we organized a global team last year to avert genocide in Kenya. Do you
      know who might be interested what we might do in the event of bird flu? to
      help prepare and be ready to respond?
      [21:44:54] Lucas: ?
      [21:45:14] Andrius Kulikauskas: Hi Lucas how are you?
      [21:45:23] Lucas: Hi, fine, and you?
      [21:45:36] Andrius Kulikauskas: I'm visitnig Franz Nahrada in Vienna,
      Austria for a few weeks.
      [21:45:47] Lucas: Ah, great!
      [21:45:50] Andrius Kulikauskas: And I was at the Open Davos Forum and I
      got to ask Kofi Annan a question
      [21:46:05] Lucas: Did you? What question, and what answer?
      [21:46:16] … Sorry, I should google for it.
      [21:46:21] Andrius Kulikauskas: I asked him to forward a letter to
      corporations that they might reimburse us for our work on the Pyramid of
      Peace last year to stop genocide in Kenya.
      [21:46:27] … And he agreed.
      [21:46:33] Lucas: hah!
      [21:46:35] … Good.
      [21:46:46] Andrius Kulikauskas: So then I decided I need to update our
      Pyramid of Peace website so that people can understand what we did.
      [21:46:52] … http://www.pyramidofpeace.net
      [21:47:05] Lucas: Well, I just looked at it and I don't understand it from
      that page, at all.
      [21:47:06] Andrius Kulikauskas: you might take a quick look but it shows
      how we organized a global team
      [21:47:13] … it reads like a dramatic play
      [21:47:18] Lucas: I remember it was about sending people money through
      phones?
      [21:47:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
      [21:47:36] … and more generally to send resources out to love the enemy
      [21:47:37] Lucas: Well, that's your opinion: "it reads like a dramatic play".
      [21:47:44] … :-)
      [21:47:52] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
      [21:47:57] … but there is quite dramatic writing
      [21:48:00] Lucas: Seriously, I don't understand anything from that page.
      [21:48:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: ok that's helpful to know
      [21:48:32] Lucas: Sometimes stuff is difficult to convey.
      [21:49:02] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
      [21:49:05] Lucas: But who am I to tell. People have different
      "understanding styles".
      [21:49:27] Andrius Kulikauskas: well at least the material is accessible
      [21:49:29] Lucas: There's text, drawings, stories and video.
      [21:49:37] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes I will add picturs
      [21:49:36] Lucas: Yes! That's great, definitely.
      [21:49:50] … I mean, sorry, I didn't mean to say it's not good.
      [21:49:53] Andrius Kulikauskas: and the point is that we were able to
      organize a large global team
      [21:50:02] Lucas: It's just that it's not *obvious* at a glimpse.
      [21:50:04] Andrius Kulikauskas: to engage gangs, open roads,
      [21:50:08] … no it's not obvious
      [21:50:29] Lucas: Aha, so that's what you did? Not the phone-money thing?
      [21:50:34] Andrius Kulikauskas: we did that too
      [21:50:36] Lucas: I mean, what exactly did happen?
      [21:50:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: but that was just a mans
      [21:50:49] Lucas: So maybe it's two threads? Complementary activities?
      [21:50:54] … "means"
      [21:51:00] Andrius Kulikauskas:
      [21:51:03] Lucas: aha.
      [21:51:14] Andrius Kulikauskas: the goal was to stop a genocide from
      happening
      [21:51:22] Lucas: Aha.
      [21:51:23] Andrius Kulikauskas: just like the goal might be someday to
      stop a flu pandemic
      [21:51:33] … first we helped our own people, then we helped them help others
      [21:51:39] … and we grew to have
      [21:51:41] Lucas: So, please let me understand genocide-stopping first.
      [21:51:43] Andrius Kulikauskas: 100 peacemakrs on the ground
      [21:51:50] … and 100 supporters online.
      [21:52:11] … Tribal violence exploded in Kenya because the President
      cheated in the election count.
      [21:52:15] Lucas: I understand you created a tree-shaped network, based on
      personal trust between close nodes?
      [21:52:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: No based on transparency.
      [21:52:48] … We were distributing resources (often in the form of phone
      credits)
      [21:52:59] … to those who were helping reach out to the enemy whoever it was
      [21:53:06] … and the condition for getting the resources
      [21:53:16] … was that they would let us post their telephone number on the
      Internet
      [21:53:29] Lucas: What for?
      [21:53:32] Andrius Kulikauskas: and if they helped us reach out and
      include the enemy likewise, we'd give them more resources
      [21:53:42] … to coopt the enemy
      [21:53:50] Lucas: So how did they "include the enemy"?
      [21:54:13] Andrius Kulikauskas: Well, for example, suppose there's a youth
      gang that's set up a road block and killing people from the wrong tribe.
      [21:54:31] Lucas: From "my" tribe, if they are the enemy.
      [21:54:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: and that's causing food shortages because
      it's
      [21:54:45] … stopping transport
      [21:54:51] Lucas: ok, i see it
      [21:55:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: suppose they are Kalenjin and killing
      everybody else
      [21:55:07] … well then we find a Kalenjin good guy to send to engage them
      [21:55:14] Lucas: aha
      [21:55:16] Andrius Kulikauskas: and to look at things from their point of
      view and hear them out
      [21:55:27] Lucas: ok
      [21:55:28] Andrius Kulikauskas: and then to offer the footballs to play
      instead of hanging around with machetes
      [21:55:37] Lucas: who offers the footballs
      [21:55:41] Andrius Kulikauskas: and then offer them cellphone airtime if
      they give us their names
      [21:55:43] Lucas: and who plays with whom?
      [21:55:52] Andrius Kulikauskas: we raised $27,000
      [21:55:56] Lucas: and who gets cellphone airtime?
      [21:56:04] Andrius Kulikauskas: the troublemakers
      [21:56:10] … and the people reaching out to them
      [21:56:27] … and that way we heard their demands, we freed many roads
      [21:56:33] Lucas: wait, wait
      [21:56:42] … who offers the footballs, who plays with whom
      [21:56:46] … ?
      [21:56:56] Andrius Kulikauskas: our peacemakers come with footballs, for
      example
      [21:57:05] … and give them to the youth at the road blocks
      [21:57:11] … so they could play amongst themselves
      [21:57:17] … even play on the road
      [21:57:21] … rather than be bored and kill people
      [21:57:35] Lucas: Ok, let me see. I'm from tribe A, and I make contact
      with a peacemaker in tribe B, and he gives footballs to troublemakers in
      tribe B?
      [21:57:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
      [21:57:44] … for example
      [21:57:57] … but if you read the story you can see all manner of things we
      did
      [21:58:10] Lucas: Yes, but I'm just trying to understand that one example.
      [21:58:13] Andrius Kulikauskas: dozens of strategic intitiativs
      [21:58:35] … well one principle in engaging the violent is "have somethng
      to share"
      [21:58:36] Lucas: So the idea was to take troublemaker's hands away from
      weapons.
      [21:58:44] Andrius Kulikauskas: to befriend them
      [21:58:50] … to help them find something better to do
      [21:58:53] … to honor thme
      [21:59:03] Lucas: And it worked?
      [21:59:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes! many times
      [21:59:45] Lucas: It sounds like hatred (and fear) can be, well,
      "distracted away"?
      [22:00:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: people respond well to love
      [22:00:02] Lucas: So, now, who gave the money?
      [22:00:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: or at least, to looking from there point
      of view
      [22:00:15] Lucas: Aha.
      [22:00:15] Andrius Kulikauskas: we raised it mostly from ourselves
      [22:00:19] … $27,000 or so
      [22:00:32] Lucas: And here, "ourselves" is members of the MSL?
      [22:00:34] Andrius Kulikauskas: to stop genocide from happening
      [22:00:34] … yes
      [22:00:40] … about five people gave most of it:
      [22:00:45] Lucas: oic
      [22:00:49] Andrius Kulikauskas: me, Janet Feldman, Pamela McLean, Ricardo
      [22:01:23] Lucas: And that money was used by 100 peacemakers in a number
      of "interventions".
      [22:01:29] Andrius Kulikauskas: exactly
      [22:01:33] … here's one example:
      [22:01:33] Lucas: 100+ interventions.
      [22:01:35] Andrius Kulikauskas: They said they could not afford to close
      down these barricades because of the constant rumors they receive on a
      daily basis. Most of the rumors were about the prospect of Mungiki being
      dropped by the Nation newspaper vans to some parts of Eldoret and western
      Kenya to rein terror on unsuspecting Kenyans. We requested to be shown the
      test messages and we actually confirmed more than 20 SMS containing such
      messages of impending attack on the people of western Kenya. We asked them
      to explain why they were extorting money from motorists and they said they
      were not getting any support from the community despite being there day in
      day out. They said they were volunteering their time and bravery and
      expected the people themselves to reciprocate by donating money, which
      they were not getting. ... Finally we gave air time to 12 of them. I gave
      out two balls to them with the instructions that the should form a
      football team, where all youth from their neighborhood should be enlisted
      to play. THEY WERE VERY HAPPY.
      [22:02:39] Lucas: so warriors are 1st people, 2nd people with their own
      set of motivations
      [22:02:49] … and addressing those motivation changes the whole game
      [22:02:54] … hmm
      [22:02:55] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
      [22:02:59] Lucas: ok, i think i get it
      [22:03:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: and the same logic
      [22:03:04] … would apply during a flu pandemic
      [22:03:06] Lucas: now the page needs to show that story
      [22:03:10] … you think so?
      [22:03:12] … how?
      [22:03:15] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes it does
      [22:03:22] … I organized the material in a timeline
      [22:03:31] … and also made two sidebars showing the participant
      [22:03:36] … but it does need a simple introduction
      [22:03:42] … but if you read the excerpts from our letters
      [22:03:45] … like the one above
      [22:03:53] … it's truly dramatic - it could be a play
      [22:03:59] … or at least a public reading
      [22:04:04] Lucas: i see
      [22:04:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: it's exactly two months
      [22:04:17] … January 1 to February 29
      [22:04:26] Lucas: a year ago
      [22:04:28] … i see
      [22:04:46] Andrius Kulikauskas: so imagine a flu pandemic where the
      "enemy" are the people who are spreading the flu
      [22:04:50] Lucas: so do i need to understand anything else before you tell
      me how this applies to pandemic flu?
      [22:04:51] … aha
      [22:04:58] … yes?
      [22:05:03] Andrius Kulikauskas: so we look at everything from their point
      of view
      [22:05:07] … how to be supportive of them
      [22:05:10] … and reach out to them
      [22:05:17] … and center around them
      [22:05:17] Lucas: aha
      [22:05:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: we're able to do that
      [22:05:29] … and indeed we could be practicing that
      [22:05:34] … we could help train people for that
      [22:05:35] Lucas: hmm
      [22:05:37] Andrius Kulikauskas: and do exercises
      [22:05:55] Lucas: and then how would it scale rapidly in times of need?
      [22:06:07] … (i'm going too fast)
      [22:06:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: well it would be good to have a booklet of
      lessons
      [22:06:18] Lucas: i see
      [22:06:22] Andrius Kulikauskas: like I'm writing for algebra
      [22:06:33] … a booklet based on "classic math problems"
      [22:07:03] … where I will take a thoughtful problem and show the deep idea
      behind it and write an essay about it and provide a dozen illustratiosn of
      it
      [22:07:07] … so an example would be in math:
      [22:07:05] Lucas: so here each lesson would be about how to teach the
      basics: how not to pass on the flu to others, how to care for the sick,
      how to do "business" in pandemic times
      [22:07:14] … those are the three basic issues
      [22:07:19] … (in my mind)
      [22:07:39] … business = essential stuff, reinvented
      [22:07:45] Andrius Kulikauskas: if a shirt costs $9 at the market and a
      third-more at the store, but the store is having a sale where everything
      is one-third off, then where is it cheaper now
      [22:08:13] Lucas: example of business: supermarket = a societal device to
      move food from store to kitchen, so pandemic supermarket = lots of home
      delivery
      [22:08:18] Andrius Kulikauskas: so that's a practical problem that many
      people might get wrong because they might think that the price will be the
      same if its one third more and one third off
      [22:08:33] … but in algebra you know that one-third more of 9 is 12 and
      one-third off of 12 leaves 8
      [22:08:41] Lucas: yes
      [22:08:44] Andrius Kulikauskas: so this is a thoughtful problem which
      illustrates a deep idea
      [22:08:50] … that algebra is thinking step-by-step
      [22:08:49] Lucas: which is?
      [22:08:55] … ah, ok
      [22:09:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: if you don't think step-by-step you can't
      get this problem right
      [22:09:02] Lucas: procedural thinking
      [22:09:05] … yes
      [22:09:09] Andrius Kulikauskas: and this is just about the simplest
      illustration of that
      [22:09:15] Lucas: not i-see-it-all-at-once thinking
      [22:09:17] … i see
      [22:09:25] … no shortcuts
      [22:09:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: so this is a nice combination of practical
      problem and deep idea
      [22:09:37] … and thirty problems like that equals all of algebra
      [22:09:43] … if you choose the right problems/ideas
      [22:09:43] Lucas: no shortcuts ... unless you want to get it wrong :-P
      [22:09:47] Andrius Kulikauskas: the right "patterns".
      [22:09:51] … yes
      [22:09:52] Lucas: aha
      [22:09:54] … ok
      [22:09:56] … i see
      [22:09:59] Andrius Kulikauskas: Now we could write a set of self-standing
      lessons like that
      [22:10:04] Lucas: yes
      [22:10:05] Andrius Kulikauskas: for "fighting peacefully"
      [22:10:10] … like "be vulnerable"
      [22:10:17] Lucas: i see
      [22:10:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: so for example Rachel Wambui Kungu went to
      the road block
      [22:10:32] … and I coached her to be vulnerable
      [22:10:33] Lucas: like, what, 20 lessons? hmm
      [22:10:39] … aha?
      [22:10:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: so she went with motorbikes instead of cars
      [22:10:49] Lucas: i see
      [22:10:51] Andrius Kulikauskas: so they could converse with the youth that
      way
      [22:10:59] … because the youth were more in control
      [22:11:11] Lucas: ic
      [22:11:16] Andrius Kulikauskas: so there's lots of illustrations for that
      [22:11:28] … well so one priority might be to write a booklet of lessons
      fighting peacefully
      [22:11:36] … and people can practice the lessons in different situations
      [22:11:41] … and when there's a need you can
      [22:11:51] … distribute the relevant lesson broadly through the media
      [22:11:58] Lucas: i see
      [22:12:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: Now imagine people who practice organizing
      like that
      [22:12:16] … in the usual challenge places like Zimbabwe, etc.
      [22:12:24] … well those people will be ready to organize
      [22:12:29] … during a flu pandemic I believe
      [22:12:35] Lucas: one problem might be that the enemy would twist things
      around, and say peacemakers are really devils in disguise, but yes
      [22:12:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: so they can respond quickly and creatively
      [22:12:53] Lucas: well, a pandemic is not about "those people"
      [22:13:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: well for example
      [22:13:10] Lucas: i mean, every little bit counts, but if we don't scale,
      we're toast (speaking generally)
      [22:13:21] … yes?
      [22:13:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: in a pandemic
      [22:13:30] … I imagine there are key people who are
      [22:13:34] … causing the most disruption
      [22:13:45] Lucas: like who?
      [22:13:57] Andrius Kulikauskas: because they are spreading the disease in
      the worst way
      [22:14:05] … for example, people flying in from one city from another
      [22:14:20] … or people who have risky behavior
      [22:14:39] … or even people who are immune but carriers, if that's possible
      [22:14:56] … or people who panic
      [22:14:58] … rather than prepare
      [22:18:08] Lucas: hmm
      [22:18:30] Andrius Kulikauskas: the "enemy" may be a small group or a
      large group
      [22:18:36] … but the principles are the same
      [22:18:50] … and we need to think from their point of view
      [22:19:23] … For example, I imagine that if there was a flu pandemic the
      biggest problem might be people fleeing the cities.
      [22:19:39] … Because if a city gets one case of flu pandemic people may panic
      [22:19:56] … and want to leave - and then who would want to take those
      people? everybody would be afraid of them
      [22:20:07] … depending on the lethality of the pandemic
      [22:20:15] Lucas: aha
      [22:20:19] Andrius Kulikauskas: so imagine dozens of major ciites
      [22:20:24] … with people fleeing them and nowhere to go
      [22:20:34] … so that's thinking from people's point of view
      [22:20:40] … and so we can accept that as a given
      [22:20:44] Lucas: and then what?
      [22:20:45] Andrius Kulikauskas: and consider how to support those people
      [22:20:49] … maybe help them flee
      [22:20:55] Lucas: i mean, we talk to them and suggest they go back to the
      city?
      [22:21:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: no
      [22:21:00] Lucas: ah, i see
      [22:21:03] Andrius Kulikauskas: we help them flee
      [22:21:06] Lucas: take Kibera
      [22:21:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: and we might tell them
      [22:21:10] Lucas: aha
      [22:21:15] Andrius Kulikauskas: to find somebody ahead of time
      [22:21:21] … who would accept them in that event
      [22:21:27] … and talk about that ahead of time
      [22:21:30] … and prepare ahead of time
      [22:21:39] … where in the countryside would you go? who would take you?
      [22:21:42] … what's your plan
      [22:21:48] … if everybody flees the city?
      [22:21:54] Lucas: sorry to sound like a cynic, but that would happen in a
      very small scale
      [22:21:59] Andrius Kulikauskas: and if enough people talked about that
      [22:22:02] Lucas: rich people are not "preparing"
      [22:22:10] Andrius Kulikauskas: well but you see my point?
      [22:22:15] … whose being realistic?
      [22:22:24] … this is the kind of leadership we provided
      [22:22:30] … the army and the police
      [22:22:35] … didn't free the roads
      [22:22:37] … we did
      [22:22:41] … they couldn't but we could
      [22:22:42] Lucas: i see
      [22:22:47] Andrius Kulikauskas: because we supported the youth
      [22:22:55] Lucas: i need to think about it more
      [22:22:56] Andrius Kulikauskas: so imagine supporting people so they can
      evacuate
      [22:23:03] … well then they might never need to
      [22:23:09] … because the more they prepare
      [22:23:15] … the less they need to do anything drastic
      [22:23:22] Lucas: the core issues are: can it happen at any scale? then,
      can it scale up? and then, can it scale up rapidly enough?
      [22:23:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: but if people don't prepare at all
      [22:23:35] … well we should prepare now, yes?
      [22:23:41] … also training organizers in this way
      [22:23:48] … building this network as an asset
      [22:23:51] Lucas: yes
      [22:23:55] Andrius Kulikauskas: is a useful asset for
      [22:23:57] … many other problems
      [22:24:00] … so for example
      [22:24:01] Lucas: many other things, yes
      [22:24:05] Andrius Kulikauskas: imagine financing a 24 hour chat room
      [22:24:12] … where anybody can go to get help on anythng
      [22:24:15] … like we do
      [22:24:20] … we have http://www.helproom.org
      [22:24:28] … suppose it's active for Zimbabwe
      [22:24:33] … it's active for Gaza
      [22:24:37] … it's active as needed
      [22:24:43] Lucas: aha, hadn't seen it
      [22:24:43] Andrius Kulikauskas: for tutoring math, etc.
      [22:24:56] Lucas: irc in the public domain
      [22:24:57] … yes
      [22:25:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: well then we're building a global team of
      people who can work together
      [22:25:06] Lucas: web-irc
      [22:25:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: and that won't hurt during a pandemic
      [22:25:17] Lucas: yes
      [22:25:25] … "won't hurt"
      [22:25:46] Andrius Kulikauskas: if the climate becomes more unstable
      [22:25:49] Lucas: well, it might hurt if we're not doing things that are
      more effective };->
      [22:25:53] Andrius Kulikauskas: it can have lots of uses
      [22:25:55] Lucas: :-D
      [22:26:00] … yes
      [22:26:02] … i agree
      [22:26:11] Andrius Kulikauskas: it's a useful tool regardless I think
      [22:26:16] Lucas: yes
      [22:26:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: so I wanted to alert you
      [22:26:28] Lucas: i'm thinking
      [22:26:29] … yes
      [22:26:34] Andrius Kulikauskas: and also last May I visited InSTEDD
      [22:26:34] Lucas: about this possibility?
      [22:26:39] Andrius Kulikauskas: and they were very excited
      [22:26:40] Lucas: aha
      [22:26:42] Andrius Kulikauskas: about our work in Kenya
      [22:26:44] Lucas: what with?
      [22:26:47] … ah, good
      [22:26:48] Andrius Kulikauskas: with Dr.Rasmussen
      [22:26:52] … we talked for two or three hours
      [22:26:59] Lucas: great
      [22:27:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: but we haven't since then
      [22:27:11] … but this idea of lesson/pattern/idea based education
      [22:27:28] … one idea at a time with the right pratical illustration
      [22:27:36] … is I think a good way to do rapid education
      [22:27:43] … of things like cough in your elbow
      [22:27:54] Lucas: well, my thinking has evolved a bit, and my framework
      for thinking about a pandemic has 4 core issues:
      [22:28:02] … 1) information
      [22:28:03] Andrius Kulikauskas: and we can work out such lessons ahead of
      time - yes?
      [22:28:08] Lucas: 2) prevention
      [22:28:10] … 3) treatment
      [22:28:13] … 4) coping
      [22:28:16] … yes
      [22:28:32] … i can write about that framework at msl
      [22:28:43] … asking for ways to make it applicable
      [22:28:49] Andrius Kulikauskas: that would be great
      [22:28:50] Lucas: that i can do, yes
      [22:28:51] Andrius Kulikauskas: may I share our chat?
      [22:28:54] Lucas: sure!
      [22:29:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: my business priority now
      [22:29:13] … is Public Domain text books, learning materials
      [22:29:17] … of the kind I described above
      [22:29:24] … and Edward Cherlin is taking the initiative for that
      [22:29:29] Lucas: great
      [22:29:31] Andrius Kulikauskas: at
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/earthtreasury/
      [22:29:37] Lucas: ok
      [22:29:52] … i have to go now, i'll be back in maybe half an hour, if
      you're still here
      [22:29:55] … thanks!
      [22:30:02] Andrius Kulikauskas: ok and I'm curious how you might best
      participate
      [22:30:04] … peace
      [22:30:07] … and we might support you

      --------------------------------

      [23:01:09] Lucas: back
      [23:01:19] … back
      [23:02:35] … i may be able to write my ideas as per the 4 headings above,
      in some detail
      [23:02:46] … but then i don't know how you'd move that forward, at all
      [23:03:34] … so i might use a page under PandemicFlu, or was it FluPandemic
      [23:03:48] … just one long detailed page with my current thinking
      [23:04:07] … and someone else would have to work on some details, or
      pursue the whole lot, or whatever
      [23:04:30] … honestly i can't say i'll be able to put lots of sustained
      energy into it :-(
      [23:05:07] … it's important if it works, but i'm doing other things which
      are also important (imho)
      [23:29:28] Andrius Kulikauskas: great and if we might help with any of
      those, it would be interesting to learn more about them
      [23:29:54] … and I'd be interested to seek work in pandemic flu
      preparedness if that's possible
      [23:29:58] Lucas: Nope, they are dayjob etc.
      [23:30:04] Andrius Kulikauskas: ok
      [23:30:11] Lucas: Well, the above is for panflu preparedness!
      [23:30:30] Andrius Kulikauskas: ?
      [23:30:40] Lucas: Ah, I see
      [23:30:44] … "seek work"
      [23:30:51] Andrius Kulikauskas: look for clients we could work for
      [23:30:56] Lucas: I don't know about that, if you mean paid work.
      [23:30:57] … I see.
      [23:31:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: perhaps like InSTEDD or related to them
      [23:31:05] … or a government like Lithuania or Spain
      [23:31:08] Lucas: Well, you know them more than I do.
      [23:31:35] Andrius Kulikauskas: you are our expert on pandemic flu
      [23:31:39] Lucas: Or for the WHO or for the Gates foundation.
      [23:31:44] Andrius Kulikauskas: so you might guide us, yes
      [23:31:48] … for example
      [23:31:54] Lucas: Maybe, but I'm not an expert in money ;-(
      [23:32:16] Andrius Kulikauskas: that's ok
      [23:32:21] … another approach also is doing $100 projects
      [23:32:31] … if there is any kind of investigation that would ever
      interest you
      [23:32:38] … it would be great to pair you up with somebody
      [23:32:49] … for example, Peter Ongele in Kenya
      [23:32:57] … is very interested in malaria prevention
      [23:33:13] … and in doing surveys of misuse of bednets, for example
      [23:33:28] … of trying to figure out what exactly helps or not
      [23:33:34] … behavior wise
      [23:33:44] Lucas: There's room for lots of things that need to be done,
      but I really feel a need to focus on panflu alone.
      [23:33:44] … Aha.
      [23:33:53] Andrius Kulikauskas: and that might or not have relation to
      similar questions of people's behavior regarding bird flu
      [23:33:59] … for example, say, poultry farmers
      [23:34:23] … or doing emergency response exercises
      [23:36:10] … Are you following any of our groups? could you follow the
      flupandemic group which we set up for you?
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flupandemic/ and I will mail our chat there
      [23:41:57] Lucas: I'm not following email groups at all.
      [23:42:14] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes well there isn't any traffic at your
      group
      [23:42:27] … but it would be good if we might assemble there?
      [23:42:53] … or I suppose an alternative is using the wiki and our Ning
      site http://worknets.ning.com
      [23:42:24] Lucas: :-(
      [23:42:39] … I'll write that page as a wiki page.
      [23:42:57] … With my current understanding of the challenge and our reaction.
      [23:43:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: which I'm working on these next two weeks
      [23:43:04] … great! thank you
      [23:43:18] Lucas: Ah, you have a ning site. Ok.
      [23:43:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: we don't use it much - Franz and I are
      trying to understand how to integrate it with our wiki so they work well
      together
      [23:43:51] Lucas: i see
      [23:44:28] Andrius Kulikauskas: probably the Ning will just be for a
      select group, the people who help moderate the system overall, or who are
      working on teams, etc.
      [23:44:36] … so that we don't have chatter
      [23:44:50] Lucas: aha
      [23:45:02] Andrius Kulikauskas: a place to coordinate work on projects
      [23:45:18] Lucas: yes, chatter appears too easily
    • ricardoolpc
      Hi Andrius can I raise an issue that is concerning me a little? You mentioned publicising the story of Pyramid of Peace to the Kenyan Business Community, in
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 12, 2009
        Hi Andrius
        can I raise an issue that is concerning me a little? You
        mentioned publicising the story of Pyramid of Peace to the Kenyan
        Business Community, in the hopes of getting some re-imbursement of
        money spent. Whether or not this actually works and you (MS) receive
        any money, the issue that concerns me is whether you've consulted
        widely with the MS Members involved to see whether they want you to
        do this or not.

        From my point of view, I prefer any small financial contribution I
        made (for airtime etc) to be low-key and discrete. I don't want it
        promoting widely in letters and articles. I don't know whether other
        MS Members feel have the same or different views on this.

        Could I at least make one small request? In any history of the
        Pyramid of Peace that you publish on public websites or send to the
        Kenyan Business Community, I'd prefer it if you didn't hyper-link my
        username Ricardo to my Worknets Profile page. I don't want my
        Worknets pages to be used for 'publishing to the whole world'. I
        prefer to use my Worknets pages as a 'work-space for ideas in
        development'. In that sense, they are a bit like an engineer's
        notebook or 'project documents', shared with colleagues. That's just
        the way I prefer to use Worknets. Other users may use their pages in
        a completely different way, trying to get maximum publicity for
        projects. It's just a question of personal preference.

        It raises interesting issues to do with 'putting something in the
        public domain' and permissions. Does putting something in the public
        domain mean that other people can publicise things or 'push' your
        pages at other people, such as the Kenyan Business Community,
        without checking with the author? Really, I'm just asking to be
        consulted before any 'unexpected uses' are made.

        In fact, rather than just remove the hyperlink to Worknets, I'd
        prefer my name not to appear at all in the history of the Pyramid of
        Peace, if you publicise it to the Kenyan Business Community or
        similar groups. Is that possible, Andrius, or have you already
        published it?

        I hope this doesn't sound like I'm criticising you. The tone doesn't
        always come across well in writing. I'm really just trying to set
        out how I'd like the information to be used.

        Have a nice day.

        Ricardo

        --- In learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com, ms@... wrote:
        >
        > Today I worked more on our Pyramid of Peace website
        > http://www.pyramidofpeace.net I've set it up so that it draws
        from three
        > pages at our wiki:
        > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceTimeline
        > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceKenyaTeam
        > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceOnlineTeam
        > This makes it easy to update the pages with more material, images,
        etc.
        >
        > You'll see that I'm choosing excerpts from letters and organizing
        them
        > according to a timeline. I'm going through the letters I wrote or
        sent
        > (about a third of the 3,000 that we wrote). I'm highlighting
        excerpts
        > that bring out the impact of our peacemaker's operations on the
        ground, of
        > our strategic leadership, and of our innovative ideas. Please let
        me know
        > of any episodes or excerpts to include that I've overlooked. I
        also look
        > forward to adding photos. If anybody would like to help, please
        let us
        > know!
        >
        > I'm doing this encouraged by Kofi Annan's supportiveness at the
        Open Davos
        > Forum. He told me that he would forward my letter to the Kenyan
        business
        > community. I will seek their help that global corporations pay us
        for the
        > work we did to avert genocide, which they should have done given
        they have
        > so many more resources than we do. We documented about $27,000 of
        > contributions through Minciu Sodas (of which I contributed about
        $10,000
        > and am now paying 17% annual interest on that). Some in our
        network sent
        > money or airtime directly, and if they can document that, it might
        total
        > $50,000. I think that we should be paid like the corporate
        workers (or
        > firemen, policemen, military, peacemakers) who would have done our
        work.
        > I think it would be proper that they pay me $8,000 per month for
        the work
        > I did those two months. I wrote about one-third of our letters so
        it
        > would be simple to ask for $50,000 for our online team's work and
        divide
        > that proportionately. So I will ask $100,000 total for our online
        team's
        > work and contributions. (Imagine, what can a military accomplish
        for
        > $100,000 ?) Similarly, I wonder what corporate managers, workers,
        > policemen, firemen, military officers in Kenya earn and calculate
        how much
        > to distribute to our 100 Kenyan peacemakers, some of whom worked
        full-time
        > and some part-time. It would be helpful to know and to calculate
        an
        > estimate. It's very constructive that we be replenished, that
        those with
        > resources grow motivated to apply them responsibly, and that we be
        able to
        > apply ourselves with new vigor.
        >
        > As you remember, we had many gripping stories, heroic adventures
        that
        > inspired us to believe in peacemaking. We have enough tales for
        an epic.
        > Simpler than that, I find it moving to simply read aloud the
        excerpts. I
        > think that it could be an inspiring dramatic work. I ask Dennis
        Kimambo
        > and Fred Kayiwa and Kennedy Owino and all to think if that might
        be of
        > creative interest? We might do such a reading in London.
        >
        > I've reserved a ticket for Rachel Wambui Kungu to come to London
        for about
        > two weeks for our WorkNets / COMMUNIA meetings. We spoke also
        that we
        > could write a booklet of self-standing lessons for "fighting
        peacefully"
        > where each lesson is a practical problem + a deep idea + many
        > illustrations. I've started work on such learning materials for
        Algebra
        > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?ClassicMathProblems
        >
        > Today I chatted with Lucas Gonzalez who is our network's expert on
        > pandemic flu. I showed our Pyramid of Peace work and asked if our
        > approach of "looking at everything from our enemy's point of view"
        might
        > be helpful? If we might organize global teams for some client to
        help with
        > flu pandemic preparedness and response? I share our chat
        >
        > Andrius
        >
        > Andrius Kulikauskas
        > Minciu Sodas
        > http://www.ms.lt
        > ms@...
        >
        > ---------
        >
        > [19:53:20] Andrius Kulikauskas: Hola Lucas, how are you? I invite
        you to
        > look at our Pyramid of Peace http://www.pyramidofpeace.net which
        shows how
        > we organized a global team last year to avert genocide in Kenya.
        Do you
        > know who might be interested what we might do in the event of bird
        flu? to
        > help prepare and be ready to respond?
        > [21:44:54] Lucas: ?
        > [21:45:14] Andrius Kulikauskas: Hi Lucas how are you?
        > [21:45:23] Lucas: Hi, fine, and you?
        > [21:45:36] Andrius Kulikauskas: I'm visitnig Franz Nahrada in
        Vienna,
        > Austria for a few weeks.
        > [21:45:47] Lucas: Ah, great!
        > [21:45:50] Andrius Kulikauskas: And I was at the Open Davos Forum
        and I
        > got to ask Kofi Annan a question
        > [21:46:05] Lucas: Did you? What question, and what answer?
        > [21:46:16] … Sorry, I should google for it.
        > [21:46:21] Andrius Kulikauskas: I asked him to forward a letter to
        > corporations that they might reimburse us for our work on the
        Pyramid of
        > Peace last year to stop genocide in Kenya.
        > [21:46:27] … And he agreed.
        > [21:46:33] Lucas: hah!
        > [21:46:35] … Good.
        > [21:46:46] Andrius Kulikauskas: So then I decided I need to update
        our
        > Pyramid of Peace website so that people can understand what we did.
        > [21:46:52] … http://www.pyramidofpeace.net
        > [21:47:05] Lucas: Well, I just looked at it and I don't understand
        it from
        > that page, at all.
        > [21:47:06] Andrius Kulikauskas: you might take a quick look but it
        shows
        > how we organized a global team
        > [21:47:13] … it reads like a dramatic play
        > [21:47:18] Lucas: I remember it was about sending people money
        through
        > phones?
        > [21:47:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
        > [21:47:36] … and more generally to send resources out to love
        the enemy
        > [21:47:37] Lucas: Well, that's your opinion: "it reads like a
        dramatic play".
        > [21:47:44] … :-)
        > [21:47:52] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
        > [21:47:57] … but there is quite dramatic writing
        > [21:48:00] Lucas: Seriously, I don't understand anything from that
        page.
        > [21:48:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: ok that's helpful to know
        > [21:48:32] Lucas: Sometimes stuff is difficult to convey.
        > [21:49:02] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
        > [21:49:05] Lucas: But who am I to tell. People have different
        > "understanding styles".
        > [21:49:27] Andrius Kulikauskas: well at least the material is
        accessible
        > [21:49:29] Lucas: There's text, drawings, stories and video.
        > [21:49:37] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes I will add picturs
        > [21:49:36] Lucas: Yes! That's great, definitely.
        > [21:49:50] … I mean, sorry, I didn't mean to say it's not good.
        > [21:49:53] Andrius Kulikauskas: and the point is that we were able
        to
        > organize a large global team
        > [21:50:02] Lucas: It's just that it's not *obvious* at a glimpse.
        > [21:50:04] Andrius Kulikauskas: to engage gangs, open roads,
        > [21:50:08] … no it's not obvious
        > [21:50:29] Lucas: Aha, so that's what you did? Not the phone-
        money thing?
        > [21:50:34] Andrius Kulikauskas: we did that too
        > [21:50:36] Lucas: I mean, what exactly did happen?
        > [21:50:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: but that was just a mans
        > [21:50:49] Lucas: So maybe it's two threads? Complementary
        activities?
        > [21:50:54] … "means"
        > [21:51:00] Andrius Kulikauskas:
        > [21:51:03] Lucas: aha.
        > [21:51:14] Andrius Kulikauskas: the goal was to stop a genocide
        from
        > happening
        > [21:51:22] Lucas: Aha.
        > [21:51:23] Andrius Kulikauskas: just like the goal might be
        someday to
        > stop a flu pandemic
        > [21:51:33] … first we helped our own people, then we helped them
        help others
        > [21:51:39] … and we grew to have
        > [21:51:41] Lucas: So, please let me understand genocide-stopping
        first.
        > [21:51:43] Andrius Kulikauskas: 100 peacemakrs on the ground
        > [21:51:50] … and 100 supporters online.
        > [21:52:11] … Tribal violence exploded in Kenya because the
        President
        > cheated in the election count.
        > [21:52:15] Lucas: I understand you created a tree-shaped network,
        based on
        > personal trust between close nodes?
        > [21:52:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: No based on transparency.
        > [21:52:48] … We were distributing resources (often in the form
        of phone
        > credits)
        > [21:52:59] … to those who were helping reach out to the enemy
        whoever it was
        > [21:53:06] … and the condition for getting the resources
        > [21:53:16] … was that they would let us post their telephone
        number on the
        > Internet
        > [21:53:29] Lucas: What for?
        > [21:53:32] Andrius Kulikauskas: and if they helped us reach out and
        > include the enemy likewise, we'd give them more resources
        > [21:53:42] … to coopt the enemy
        > [21:53:50] Lucas: So how did they "include the enemy"?
        > [21:54:13] Andrius Kulikauskas: Well, for example, suppose there's
        a youth
        > gang that's set up a road block and killing people from the wrong
        tribe.
        > [21:54:31] Lucas: From "my" tribe, if they are the enemy.
        > [21:54:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: and that's causing food shortages
        because
        > it's
        > [21:54:45] … stopping transport
        > [21:54:51] Lucas: ok, i see it
        > [21:55:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: suppose they are Kalenjin and
        killing
        > everybody else
        > [21:55:07] … well then we find a Kalenjin good guy to send to
        engage them
        > [21:55:14] Lucas: aha
        > [21:55:16] Andrius Kulikauskas: and to look at things from their
        point of
        > view and hear them out
        > [21:55:27] Lucas: ok
        > [21:55:28] Andrius Kulikauskas: and then to offer the footballs to
        play
        > instead of hanging around with machetes
        > [21:55:37] Lucas: who offers the footballs
        > [21:55:41] Andrius Kulikauskas: and then offer them cellphone
        airtime if
        > they give us their names
        > [21:55:43] Lucas: and who plays with whom?
        > [21:55:52] Andrius Kulikauskas: we raised $27,000
        > [21:55:56] Lucas: and who gets cellphone airtime?
        > [21:56:04] Andrius Kulikauskas: the troublemakers
        > [21:56:10] … and the people reaching out to them
        > [21:56:27] … and that way we heard their demands, we freed many
        roads
        > [21:56:33] Lucas: wait, wait
        > [21:56:42] … who offers the footballs, who plays with whom
        > [21:56:46] … ?
        > [21:56:56] Andrius Kulikauskas: our peacemakers come with
        footballs, for
        > example
        > [21:57:05] … and give them to the youth at the road blocks
        > [21:57:11] … so they could play amongst themselves
        > [21:57:17] … even play on the road
        > [21:57:21] … rather than be bored and kill people
        > [21:57:35] Lucas: Ok, let me see. I'm from tribe A, and I make
        contact
        > with a peacemaker in tribe B, and he gives footballs to
        troublemakers in
        > tribe B?
        > [21:57:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
        > [21:57:44] … for example
        > [21:57:57] … but if you read the story you can see all manner of
        things we
        > did
        > [21:58:10] Lucas: Yes, but I'm just trying to understand that one
        example.
        > [21:58:13] Andrius Kulikauskas: dozens of strategic intitiativs
        > [21:58:35] … well one principle in engaging the violent is "have
        somethng
        > to share"
        > [21:58:36] Lucas: So the idea was to take troublemaker's hands
        away from
        > weapons.
        > [21:58:44] Andrius Kulikauskas: to befriend them
        > [21:58:50] … to help them find something better to do
        > [21:58:53] … to honor thme
        > [21:59:03] Lucas: And it worked?
        > [21:59:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes! many times
        > [21:59:45] Lucas: It sounds like hatred (and fear) can be, well,
        > "distracted away"?
        > [22:00:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: people respond well to love
        > [22:00:02] Lucas: So, now, who gave the money?
        > [22:00:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: or at least, to looking from there
        point
        > of view
        > [22:00:15] Lucas: Aha.
        > [22:00:15] Andrius Kulikauskas: we raised it mostly from ourselves
        > [22:00:19] … $27,000 or so
        > [22:00:32] Lucas: And here, "ourselves" is members of the MSL?
        > [22:00:34] Andrius Kulikauskas: to stop genocide from happening
        > [22:00:34] … yes
        > [22:00:40] … about five people gave most of it:
        > [22:00:45] Lucas: oic
        > [22:00:49] Andrius Kulikauskas: me, Janet Feldman, Pamela McLean,
        Ricardo
        > [22:01:23] Lucas: And that money was used by 100 peacemakers in a
        number
        > of "interventions".
        > [22:01:29] Andrius Kulikauskas: exactly
        > [22:01:33] … here's one example:
        > [22:01:33] Lucas: 100+ interventions.
        > [22:01:35] Andrius Kulikauskas: They said they could not afford to
        close
        > down these barricades because of the constant rumors they receive
        on a
        > daily basis. Most of the rumors were about the prospect of Mungiki
        being
        > dropped by the Nation newspaper vans to some parts of Eldoret and
        western
        > Kenya to rein terror on unsuspecting Kenyans. We requested to be
        shown the
        > test messages and we actually confirmed more than 20 SMS
        containing such
        > messages of impending attack on the people of western Kenya. We
        asked them
        > to explain why they were extorting money from motorists and they
        said they
        > were not getting any support from the community despite being
        there day in
        > day out. They said they were volunteering their time and bravery
        and
        > expected the people themselves to reciprocate by donating money,
        which
        > they were not getting. ... Finally we gave air time to 12 of them.
        I gave
        > out two balls to them with the instructions that the should form a
        > football team, where all youth from their neighborhood should be
        enlisted
        > to play. THEY WERE VERY HAPPY.
        > [22:02:39] Lucas: so warriors are 1st people, 2nd people with
        their own
        > set of motivations
        > [22:02:49] … and addressing those motivation changes the whole
        game
        > [22:02:54] … hmm
        > [22:02:55] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes
        > [22:02:59] Lucas: ok, i think i get it
        > [22:03:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: and the same logic
        > [22:03:04] … would apply during a flu pandemic
        > [22:03:06] Lucas: now the page needs to show that story
        > [22:03:10] … you think so?
        > [22:03:12] … how?
        > [22:03:15] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes it does
        > [22:03:22] … I organized the material in a timeline
        > [22:03:31] … and also made two sidebars showing the participant
        > [22:03:36] … but it does need a simple introduction
        > [22:03:42] … but if you read the excerpts from our letters
        > [22:03:45] … like the one above
        > [22:03:53] … it's truly dramatic - it could be a play
        > [22:03:59] … or at least a public reading
        > [22:04:04] Lucas: i see
        > [22:04:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: it's exactly two months
        > [22:04:17] … January 1 to February 29
        > [22:04:26] Lucas: a year ago
        > [22:04:28] … i see
        > [22:04:46] Andrius Kulikauskas: so imagine a flu pandemic where the
        > "enemy" are the people who are spreading the flu
        > [22:04:50] Lucas: so do i need to understand anything else before
        you tell
        > me how this applies to pandemic flu?
        > [22:04:51] … aha
        > [22:04:58] … yes?
        > [22:05:03] Andrius Kulikauskas: so we look at everything from
        their point
        > of view
        > [22:05:07] … how to be supportive of them
        > [22:05:10] … and reach out to them
        > [22:05:17] … and center around them
        > [22:05:17] Lucas: aha
        > [22:05:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: we're able to do that
        > [22:05:29] … and indeed we could be practicing that
        > [22:05:34] … we could help train people for that
        > [22:05:35] Lucas: hmm
        > [22:05:37] Andrius Kulikauskas: and do exercises
        > [22:05:55] Lucas: and then how would it scale rapidly in times of
        need?
        > [22:06:07] … (i'm going too fast)
        > [22:06:12] Andrius Kulikauskas: well it would be good to have a
        booklet of
        > lessons
        > [22:06:18] Lucas: i see
        > [22:06:22] Andrius Kulikauskas: like I'm writing for algebra
        > [22:06:33] … a booklet based on "classic math problems"
        > [22:07:03] … where I will take a thoughtful problem and show the
        deep idea
        > behind it and write an essay about it and provide a dozen
        illustratiosn of
        > it
        > [22:07:07] … so an example would be in math:
        > [22:07:05] Lucas: so here each lesson would be about how to teach
        the
        > basics: how not to pass on the flu to others, how to care for the
        sick,
        > how to do "business" in pandemic times
        > [22:07:14] … those are the three basic issues
        > [22:07:19] … (in my mind)
        > [22:07:39] … business = essential stuff, reinvented
        > [22:07:45] Andrius Kulikauskas: if a shirt costs $9 at the market
        and a
        > third-more at the store, but the store is having a sale where
        everything
        > is one-third off, then where is it cheaper now
        > [22:08:13] Lucas: example of business: supermarket = a societal
        device to
        > move food from store to kitchen, so pandemic supermarket = lots of
        home
        > delivery
        > [22:08:18] Andrius Kulikauskas: so that's a practical problem that
        many
        > people might get wrong because they might think that the price
        will be the
        > same if its one third more and one third off
        > [22:08:33] … but in algebra you know that one-third more of 9 is
        12 and
        > one-third off of 12 leaves 8
        > [22:08:41] Lucas: yes
        > [22:08:44] Andrius Kulikauskas: so this is a thoughtful problem
        which
        > illustrates a deep idea
        > [22:08:50] … that algebra is thinking step-by-step
        > [22:08:49] Lucas: which is?
        > [22:08:55] … ah, ok
        > [22:09:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: if you don't think step-by-step
        you can't
        > get this problem right
        > [22:09:02] Lucas: procedural thinking
        > [22:09:05] … yes
        > [22:09:09] Andrius Kulikauskas: and this is just about the simplest
        > illustration of that
        > [22:09:15] Lucas: not i-see-it-all-at-once thinking
        > [22:09:17] … i see
        > [22:09:25] … no shortcuts
        > [22:09:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: so this is a nice combination of
        practical
        > problem and deep idea
        > [22:09:37] … and thirty problems like that equals all of algebra
        > [22:09:43] … if you choose the right problems/ideas
        > [22:09:43] Lucas: no shortcuts ... unless you want to get it
        wrong :-P
        > [22:09:47] Andrius Kulikauskas: the right "patterns".
        > [22:09:51] … yes
        > [22:09:52] Lucas: aha
        > [22:09:54] … ok
        > [22:09:56] … i see
        > [22:09:59] Andrius Kulikauskas: Now we could write a set of self-
        standing
        > lessons like that
        > [22:10:04] Lucas: yes
        > [22:10:05] Andrius Kulikauskas: for "fighting peacefully"
        > [22:10:10] … like "be vulnerable"
        > [22:10:17] Lucas: i see
        > [22:10:26] Andrius Kulikauskas: so for example Rachel Wambui Kungu
        went to
        > the road block
        > [22:10:32] … and I coached her to be vulnerable
        > [22:10:33] Lucas: like, what, 20 lessons? hmm
        > [22:10:39] … aha?
        > [22:10:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: so she went with motorbikes
        instead of cars
        > [22:10:49] Lucas: i see
        > [22:10:51] Andrius Kulikauskas: so they could converse with the
        youth that
        > way
        > [22:10:59] … because the youth were more in control
        > [22:11:11] Lucas: ic
        > [22:11:16] Andrius Kulikauskas: so there's lots of illustrations
        for that
        > [22:11:28] … well so one priority might be to write a booklet of
        lessons
        > fighting peacefully
        > [22:11:36] … and people can practice the lessons in different
        situations
        > [22:11:41] … and when there's a need you can
        > [22:11:51] … distribute the relevant lesson broadly through the
        media
        > [22:11:58] Lucas: i see
        > [22:12:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: Now imagine people who practice
        organizing
        > like that
        > [22:12:16] … in the usual challenge places like Zimbabwe, etc.
        > [22:12:24] … well those people will be ready to organize
        > [22:12:29] … during a flu pandemic I believe
        > [22:12:35] Lucas: one problem might be that the enemy would twist
        things
        > around, and say peacemakers are really devils in disguise, but yes
        > [22:12:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: so they can respond quickly and
        creatively
        > [22:12:53] Lucas: well, a pandemic is not about "those people"
        > [22:13:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: well for example
        > [22:13:10] Lucas: i mean, every little bit counts, but if we don't
        scale,
        > we're toast (speaking generally)
        > [22:13:21] … yes?
        > [22:13:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: in a pandemic
        > [22:13:30] … I imagine there are key people who are
        > [22:13:34] … causing the most disruption
        > [22:13:45] Lucas: like who?
        > [22:13:57] Andrius Kulikauskas: because they are spreading the
        disease in
        > the worst way
        > [22:14:05] … for example, people flying in from one city from
        another
        > [22:14:20] … or people who have risky behavior
        > [22:14:39] … or even people who are immune but carriers, if
        that's possible
        > [22:14:56] … or people who panic
        > [22:14:58] … rather than prepare
        > [22:18:08] Lucas: hmm
        > [22:18:30] Andrius Kulikauskas: the "enemy" may be a small group
        or a
        > large group
        > [22:18:36] … but the principles are the same
        > [22:18:50] … and we need to think from their point of view
        > [22:19:23] … For example, I imagine that if there was a flu
        pandemic the
        > biggest problem might be people fleeing the cities.
        > [22:19:39] … Because if a city gets one case of flu pandemic
        people may panic
        > [22:19:56] … and want to leave - and then who would want to take
        those
        > people? everybody would be afraid of them
        > [22:20:07] … depending on the lethality of the pandemic
        > [22:20:15] Lucas: aha
        > [22:20:19] Andrius Kulikauskas: so imagine dozens of major ciites
        > [22:20:24] … with people fleeing them and nowhere to go
        > [22:20:34] … so that's thinking from people's point of view
        > [22:20:40] … and so we can accept that as a given
        > [22:20:44] Lucas: and then what?
        > [22:20:45] Andrius Kulikauskas: and consider how to support those
        people
        > [22:20:49] … maybe help them flee
        > [22:20:55] Lucas: i mean, we talk to them and suggest they go back
        to the
        > city?
        > [22:21:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: no
        > [22:21:00] Lucas: ah, i see
        > [22:21:03] Andrius Kulikauskas: we help them flee
        > [22:21:06] Lucas: take Kibera
        > [22:21:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: and we might tell them
        > [22:21:10] Lucas: aha
        > [22:21:15] Andrius Kulikauskas: to find somebody ahead of time
        > [22:21:21] … who would accept them in that event
        > [22:21:27] … and talk about that ahead of time
        > [22:21:30] … and prepare ahead of time
        > [22:21:39] … where in the countryside would you go? who would
        take you?
        > [22:21:42] … what's your plan
        > [22:21:48] … if everybody flees the city?
        > [22:21:54] Lucas: sorry to sound like a cynic, but that would
        happen in a
        > very small scale
        > [22:21:59] Andrius Kulikauskas: and if enough people talked about
        that
        > [22:22:02] Lucas: rich people are not "preparing"
        > [22:22:10] Andrius Kulikauskas: well but you see my point?
        > [22:22:15] … whose being realistic?
        > [22:22:24] … this is the kind of leadership we provided
        > [22:22:30] … the army and the police
        > [22:22:35] … didn't free the roads
        > [22:22:37] … we did
        > [22:22:41] … they couldn't but we could
        > [22:22:42] Lucas: i see
        > [22:22:47] Andrius Kulikauskas: because we supported the youth
        > [22:22:55] Lucas: i need to think about it more
        > [22:22:56] Andrius Kulikauskas: so imagine supporting people so
        they can
        > evacuate
        > [22:23:03] … well then they might never need to
        > [22:23:09] … because the more they prepare
        > [22:23:15] … the less they need to do anything drastic
        > [22:23:22] Lucas: the core issues are: can it happen at any scale?
        then,
        > can it scale up? and then, can it scale up rapidly enough?
        > [22:23:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: but if people don't prepare at all
        > [22:23:35] … well we should prepare now, yes?
        > [22:23:41] … also training organizers in this way
        > [22:23:48] … building this network as an asset
        > [22:23:51] Lucas: yes
        > [22:23:55] Andrius Kulikauskas: is a useful asset for
        > [22:23:57] … many other problems
        > [22:24:00] … so for example
        > [22:24:01] Lucas: many other things, yes
        > [22:24:05] Andrius Kulikauskas: imagine financing a 24 hour chat
        room
        > [22:24:12] … where anybody can go to get help on anythng
        > [22:24:15] … like we do
        > [22:24:20] … we have http://www.helproom.org
        > [22:24:28] … suppose it's active for Zimbabwe
        > [22:24:33] … it's active for Gaza
        > [22:24:37] … it's active as needed
        > [22:24:43] Lucas: aha, hadn't seen it
        > [22:24:43] Andrius Kulikauskas: for tutoring math, etc.
        > [22:24:56] Lucas: irc in the public domain
        > [22:24:57] … yes
        > [22:25:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: well then we're building a global
        team of
        > people who can work together
        > [22:25:06] Lucas: web-irc
        > [22:25:08] Andrius Kulikauskas: and that won't hurt during a
        pandemic
        > [22:25:17] Lucas: yes
        > [22:25:25] … "won't hurt"
        > [22:25:46] Andrius Kulikauskas: if the climate becomes more
        unstable
        > [22:25:49] Lucas: well, it might hurt if we're not doing things
        that are
        > more effective };->
        > [22:25:53] Andrius Kulikauskas: it can have lots of uses
        > [22:25:55] Lucas: :-D
        > [22:26:00] … yes
        > [22:26:02] … i agree
        > [22:26:11] Andrius Kulikauskas: it's a useful tool regardless I
        think
        > [22:26:16] Lucas: yes
        > [22:26:24] Andrius Kulikauskas: so I wanted to alert you
        > [22:26:28] Lucas: i'm thinking
        > [22:26:29] … yes
        > [22:26:34] Andrius Kulikauskas: and also last May I visited InSTEDD
        > [22:26:34] Lucas: about this possibility?
        > [22:26:39] Andrius Kulikauskas: and they were very excited
        > [22:26:40] Lucas: aha
        > [22:26:42] Andrius Kulikauskas: about our work in Kenya
        > [22:26:44] Lucas: what with?
        > [22:26:47] … ah, good
        > [22:26:48] Andrius Kulikauskas: with Dr.Rasmussen
        > [22:26:52] … we talked for two or three hours
        > [22:26:59] Lucas: great
        > [22:27:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: but we haven't since then
        > [22:27:11] … but this idea of lesson/pattern/idea based education
        > [22:27:28] … one idea at a time with the right pratical
        illustration
        > [22:27:36] … is I think a good way to do rapid education
        > [22:27:43] … of things like cough in your elbow
        > [22:27:54] Lucas: well, my thinking has evolved a bit, and my
        framework
        > for thinking about a pandemic has 4 core issues:
        > [22:28:02] … 1) information
        > [22:28:03] Andrius Kulikauskas: and we can work out such lessons
        ahead of
        > time - yes?
        > [22:28:08] Lucas: 2) prevention
        > [22:28:10] … 3) treatment
        > [22:28:13] … 4) coping
        > [22:28:16] … yes
        > [22:28:32] … i can write about that framework at msl
        > [22:28:43] … asking for ways to make it applicable
        > [22:28:49] Andrius Kulikauskas: that would be great
        > [22:28:50] Lucas: that i can do, yes
        > [22:28:51] Andrius Kulikauskas: may I share our chat?
        > [22:28:54] Lucas: sure!
        > [22:29:01] Andrius Kulikauskas: my business priority now
        > [22:29:13] … is Public Domain text books, learning materials
        > [22:29:17] … of the kind I described above
        > [22:29:24] … and Edward Cherlin is taking the initiative for that
        > [22:29:29] Lucas: great
        > [22:29:31] Andrius Kulikauskas: at
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/earthtreasury/
        > [22:29:37] Lucas: ok
        > [22:29:52] … i have to go now, i'll be back in maybe half an
        hour, if
        > you're still here
        > [22:29:55] … thanks!
        > [22:30:02] Andrius Kulikauskas: ok and I'm curious how you might
        best
        > participate
        > [22:30:04] … peace
        > [22:30:07] … and we might support you
        >
        > --------------------------------
        >
        > [23:01:09] Lucas: back
        > [23:01:19] … back
        > [23:02:35] … i may be able to write my ideas as per the 4
        headings above,
        > in some detail
        > [23:02:46] … but then i don't know how you'd move that forward,
        at all
        > [23:03:34] … so i might use a page under PandemicFlu, or was it
        FluPandemic
        > [23:03:48] … just one long detailed page with my current thinking
        > [23:04:07] … and someone else would have to work on some
        details, or
        > pursue the whole lot, or whatever
        > [23:04:30] … honestly i can't say i'll be able to put lots of
        sustained
        > energy into it :-(
        > [23:05:07] … it's important if it works, but i'm doing other
        things which
        > are also important (imho)
        > [23:29:28] Andrius Kulikauskas: great and if we might help with
        any of
        > those, it would be interesting to learn more about them
        > [23:29:54] … and I'd be interested to seek work in pandemic flu
        > preparedness if that's possible
        > [23:29:58] Lucas: Nope, they are dayjob etc.
        > [23:30:04] Andrius Kulikauskas: ok
        > [23:30:11] Lucas: Well, the above is for panflu preparedness!
        > [23:30:30] Andrius Kulikauskas: ?
        > [23:30:40] Lucas: Ah, I see
        > [23:30:44] … "seek work"
        > [23:30:51] Andrius Kulikauskas: look for clients we could work for
        > [23:30:56] Lucas: I don't know about that, if you mean paid work.
        > [23:30:57] … I see.
        > [23:31:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: perhaps like InSTEDD or related to
        them
        > [23:31:05] … or a government like Lithuania or Spain
        > [23:31:08] Lucas: Well, you know them more than I do.
        > [23:31:35] Andrius Kulikauskas: you are our expert on pandemic flu
        > [23:31:39] Lucas: Or for the WHO or for the Gates foundation.
        > [23:31:44] Andrius Kulikauskas: so you might guide us, yes
        > [23:31:48] … for example
        > [23:31:54] Lucas: Maybe, but I'm not an expert in money ;-(
        > [23:32:16] Andrius Kulikauskas: that's ok
        > [23:32:21] … another approach also is doing $100 projects
        > [23:32:31] … if there is any kind of investigation that would
        ever
        > interest you
        > [23:32:38] … it would be great to pair you up with somebody
        > [23:32:49] … for example, Peter Ongele in Kenya
        > [23:32:57] … is very interested in malaria prevention
        > [23:33:13] … and in doing surveys of misuse of bednets, for
        example
        > [23:33:28] … of trying to figure out what exactly helps or not
        > [23:33:34] … behavior wise
        > [23:33:44] Lucas: There's room for lots of things that need to be
        done,
        > but I really feel a need to focus on panflu alone.
        > [23:33:44] … Aha.
        > [23:33:53] Andrius Kulikauskas: and that might or not have
        relation to
        > similar questions of people's behavior regarding bird flu
        > [23:33:59] … for example, say, poultry farmers
        > [23:34:23] … or doing emergency response exercises
        > [23:36:10] … Are you following any of our groups? could you
        follow the
        > flupandemic group which we set up for you?
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flupandemic/ and I will mail our
        chat there
        > [23:41:57] Lucas: I'm not following email groups at all.
        > [23:42:14] Andrius Kulikauskas: yes well there isn't any traffic
        at your
        > group
        > [23:42:27] … but it would be good if we might assemble there?
        > [23:42:53] … or I suppose an alternative is using the wiki and
        our Ning
        > site http://worknets.ning.com
        > [23:42:24] Lucas: :-(
        > [23:42:39] … I'll write that page as a wiki page.
        > [23:42:57] … With my current understanding of the challenge and
        our reaction.
        > [23:43:00] Andrius Kulikauskas: which I'm working on these next
        two weeks
        > [23:43:04] … great! thank you
        > [23:43:18] Lucas: Ah, you have a ning site. Ok.
        > [23:43:40] Andrius Kulikauskas: we don't use it much - Franz and I
        are
        > trying to understand how to integrate it with our wiki so they
        work well
        > together
        > [23:43:51] Lucas: i see
        > [23:44:28] Andrius Kulikauskas: probably the Ning will just be for
        a
        > select group, the people who help moderate the system overall, or
        who are
        > working on teams, etc.
        > [23:44:36] … so that we don't have chatter
        > [23:44:50] Lucas: aha
        > [23:45:02] Andrius Kulikauskas: a place to coordinate work on
        projects
        > [23:45:18] Lucas: yes, chatter appears too easily
        >
      • ms@ms.lt
        Hi Ricardo, Thank you for raising your concerns. I invite others too, as well. I ve removed your name from the online team on the right side bar. In the
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 12, 2009
          Hi Ricardo,

          Thank you for raising your concerns. I invite others too, as well.

          I've removed your name from the "online team" on the right side bar. In
          the timeline down the center of the page, I replaced Ricardo with R. So
          Ricardo shouldn't appear anywhere on the page.

          Your name does still appear in letters and wiki pages that we link to.
          Ricardo also appears on our audit report
          http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/timebanks/report.php

          Is that fine? Please let me know. We can make more changes as
          circumstances change. Also, you can edit the main page, it is based on
          our wiki pages:
          http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceTimeline
          http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?KenyaTeam
          http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OnlineTeam

          I will write more separately about my intentions. I acted pretty much as
          an individual then and now. I didn't consult with anybody regarding the
          $10,000 that I incurred in debt or the two months that I worked full time.
          I'm working openly so that people can consult me and correct me as they
          like along the way.

          Thank you, Ricardo!

          Andrius

          Andrius Kulikauskas
          Minciu Sodas
          http://www.ms.lt
          ms@...

          ------------------------------

          Hi Andrius
          can I raise an issue that is concerning me a little? You
          mentioned publicising the story of Pyramid of Peace to the Kenyan
          Business Community, in the hopes of getting some re-imbursement of
          money spent. Whether or not this actually works and you (MS) receive
          any money, the issue that concerns me is whether you've consulted
          widely with the MS Members involved to see whether they want you to
          do this or not.

          >From my point of view, I prefer any small financial contribution I
          made (for airtime etc) to be low-key and discrete. I don't want it
          promoting widely in letters and articles. I don't know whether other
          MS Members feel have the same or different views on this.

          Could I at least make one small request? In any history of the
          Pyramid of Peace that you publish on public websites or send to the
          Kenyan Business Community, I'd prefer it if you didn't hyper-link my
          username Ricardo to my Worknets Profile page. I don't want my
          Worknets pages to be used for 'publishing to the whole world'. I
          prefer to use my Worknets pages as a 'work-space for ideas in
          development'. In that sense, they are a bit like an engineer's
          notebook or 'project documents', shared with colleagues. That's just
          the way I prefer to use Worknets. Other users may use their pages in
          a completely different way, trying to get maximum publicity for
          projects. It's just a question of personal preference.

          It raises interesting issues to do with 'putting something in the
          public domain' and permissions. Does putting something in the public
          domain mean that other people can publicise things or 'push' your
          pages at other people, such as the Kenyan Business Community,
          without checking with the author? Really, I'm just asking to be
          consulted before any 'unexpected uses' are made.

          In fact, rather than just remove the hyperlink to Worknets, I'd
          prefer my name not to appear at all in the history of the Pyramid of
          Peace, if you publicise it to the Kenyan Business Community or
          similar groups. Is that possible, Andrius, or have you already
          published it?

          I hope this doesn't sound like I'm criticising you. The tone doesn't
          always come across well in writing. I'm really just trying to set
          out how I'd like the information to be used.

          Have a nice day.

          Ricardo
        • ricardoolpc
          Hi Andrius Samwel emailed me to say he s not happy with hyperlinking to his articles either. He s concerned about people mis-using his research and attracting
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 14, 2009
            Hi Andrius
            Samwel emailed me to say he's not happy with hyperlinking
            to his articles either. He's concerned about people mis-using his
            research and attracting hackers and scammer. I said he should email
            you to say preceisely what he would like you to do, and what
            articles he is talking about.

            I've taken a look at the main Pyramid of Peace page...

            http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/

            I have to say that the more I look at this, the more concerned I am
            about the whole idea of publicising Pyramid of Peace to the wider
            world and more specifically to the Kenyan Business Community and
            asking for contributions/reimbursement of money spent.

            One concern is that the Kenyan Business Community and Political
            community are probably linked together quite closely. It could all
            get a bit political.

            On the main Pyramid of Peace page, there are lists of names, phone
            numbers and email addresses for MS Member in the UK/Kenya/etc, which
            are completely at odds with most people's recommendations
            on 'staying safe on the internet' (from hackers/scammers, etc).
            Also, any links to Worknets or publicising our PoP Letters more
            widely would lead hackers/scammers to the same details and personal
            profiles and photos.

            Promoting peace-making through inspiring stories is a noble aim, but
            in my opinion, I think it's time for a major consultation exercise
            with all the people involved, to see whether they approve of this
            whole idea, and how much detail they want released.

            There are many different ways to consult people. Would it be
            possible to make it the subject of a Thursday chat, for example?

            It may be better to have a straight-forward story page, without any
            hyperlinks to other sites like Worknets and without contact details
            for individual MS Members.

            Ricardo


            --- In learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com, ms@... wrote:
            >
            > Hi Ricardo,
            >
            > Thank you for raising your concerns. I invite others too, as well.
            >
            > I've removed your name from the "online team" on the right side
            bar. In
            > the timeline down the center of the page, I replaced Ricardo with
            R. So
            > Ricardo shouldn't appear anywhere on the page.
            >
            > Your name does still appear in letters and wiki pages that we link
            to.
            > Ricardo also appears on our audit report
            > http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/timebanks/report.php
            >
            > Is that fine? Please let me know. We can make more changes as
            > circumstances change. Also, you can edit the main page, it is
            based on
            > our wiki pages:
            > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?PyramidOfPeaceTimeline
            > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?KenyaTeam
            > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?OnlineTeam
            >
            > I will write more separately about my intentions. I acted pretty
            much as
            > an individual then and now. I didn't consult with anybody
            regarding the
            > $10,000 that I incurred in debt or the two months that I worked
            full time.
            > I'm working openly so that people can consult me and correct me
            as they
            > like along the way.
            >
            > Thank you, Ricardo!
            >
            > Andrius
            >
            > Andrius Kulikauskas
            > Minciu Sodas
            > http://www.ms.lt
            > ms@...
            >
            > ------------------------------
            >
            > Hi Andrius
            > can I raise an issue that is concerning me a little? You
            > mentioned publicising the story of Pyramid of Peace to the Kenyan
            > Business Community, in the hopes of getting some re-imbursement of
            > money spent. Whether or not this actually works and you (MS)
            receive
            > any money, the issue that concerns me is whether you've consulted
            > widely with the MS Members involved to see whether they want you to
            > do this or not.
            >
            > >From my point of view, I prefer any small financial contribution I
            > made (for airtime etc) to be low-key and discrete. I don't want it
            > promoting widely in letters and articles. I don't know whether
            other
            > MS Members feel have the same or different views on this.
            >
            > Could I at least make one small request? In any history of the
            > Pyramid of Peace that you publish on public websites or send to the
            > Kenyan Business Community, I'd prefer it if you didn't hyper-link
            my
            > username Ricardo to my Worknets Profile page. I don't want my
            > Worknets pages to be used for 'publishing to the whole world'. I
            > prefer to use my Worknets pages as a 'work-space for ideas in
            > development'. In that sense, they are a bit like an engineer's
            > notebook or 'project documents', shared with colleagues. That's
            just
            > the way I prefer to use Worknets. Other users may use their pages
            in
            > a completely different way, trying to get maximum publicity for
            > projects. It's just a question of personal preference.
            >
            > It raises interesting issues to do with 'putting something in the
            > public domain' and permissions. Does putting something in the
            public
            > domain mean that other people can publicise things or 'push' your
            > pages at other people, such as the Kenyan Business Community,
            > without checking with the author? Really, I'm just asking to be
            > consulted before any 'unexpected uses' are made.
            >
            > In fact, rather than just remove the hyperlink to Worknets, I'd
            > prefer my name not to appear at all in the history of the Pyramid
            of
            > Peace, if you publicise it to the Kenyan Business Community or
            > similar groups. Is that possible, Andrius, or have you already
            > published it?
            >
            > I hope this doesn't sound like I'm criticising you. The tone
            doesn't
            > always come across well in writing. I'm really just trying to set
            > out how I'd like the information to be used.
            >
            > Have a nice day.
            >
            > Ricardo
            >
          • Kennedy Owino
            Hi Andrius, Andrius i admire your great leadership abilities and laud your efforts for having reached out to Koffi Annan and attracting his attention towards
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 14, 2009
              Hi Andrius,

              Andrius i admire your great leadership abilities and laud your efforts for having reached out to Koffi Annan and attracting his attention towards the efforts we applied through the Pyramid of Peace.
              We trully helped prevent a genocide in Kenya and i am more than humbled for the compassionate hearts People in other countries, Uganda, Tanzania, Cameroon, Europe, America and others not mentioned developed for Kenya.
              I believe God has a reward for our charitable deeds, human beings can't compesate us enough for what we did.

              I have been concerned about this issue of re-imbursement, and i would also like to add my personal voice.
              It may be right to publicize and get re-imbursed for the efforts that were exerted through the Pyramid Of Peace during the Turmoil period in Kenya, but my sober conscience makes me apprehensive and gives me more to fear about to be involved in this.
              There were concerted efforts  both Locally and Internationally and i don't want to speak on behalf of any person.
              My opinion therefore is that, whatever i did or my actions to stop more deaths in Kenya was out of my own volition and out of the spirit of patriotism to save my heart, my friends and family lives, and save my country from being a statistics of war ravaged countries.
              Many people died and many placed their lives at risk in the process of contributing towards averting violence.
              I risked too, but i am lucky i survived, i can't compare to many who went to more risky limits than i did or those who died.
              There are Heros and Heroines who deserve to be awarded (compesation to me sounds commercial).
              In the minds of others, Re-imbursement would be good, and would help PoP or MSL further it's activities but i request to be withdrawn from any Publicity going on.

              My reasons are clear;
              I don't feel good that re-imbursement is requested for, yet there are thousand of victims still pathetically languishing their lives in Internally Displaced Peoples' camps.
              The Government nor the Co-operate Organisations (being asked for Re-imbursement) are taking no stern measures to address this or to help the victims.
              Why can't we petition the Government and the Co-operate Society to rally funds to help the IDPs?

              At one time, i risked my life by travelling under disguised identity to an area where my tribe was being persecuted and executed in day broad light.
              "They" thought i was one of them and thus others and me, managed to convince "them" to unblock the road blocks.
              The sad killing episodes  that they executed still totures me.
              Kenya is in a healing state, but mild tensions still exist.
              There is Heated Politics doing rounds for the perpetrators of the violence to be investigated in a locally set tribunal or taken to the Hague.
              I value my life most now than anything... i don't want to offer any deep or further explanations.
              I don't want to be consulted or asked to offer my views (in the public Domain/Glare) wether the co-operate organisations - funnily enough managed under deep political influence- would Re-imburse PoP.
              I don't want to campaign for that either, there are more deserving areas requiring my energy.
              Please, i ask cordially that my name and contacts (e-mail or phone number) be taken off from the Article being publicised.

              I wish you all the best.

              Peace,

              Ken Owino

              --- On Sat, 2/14/09, ricardoolpc <ricardoolpc@...> wrote:
              From: ricardoolpc <ricardoolpc@...>
              Subject: [learningfromeachother] Re: Pyramid of Peace one year later
              To: learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 12:48 AM

              Hi Andrius
              Samwel emailed me to say he's not happy with hyperlinking
              to his articles either. He's concerned about people mis-using his
              research and attracting hackers and scammer. I said he should email
              you to say preceisely what he would like you to do, and what
              articles he is talking about.

              I've taken a look at the main Pyramid of Peace page...

              http://www.pyramido fpeace.net/

              I have to say that the more I look at this, the more concerned I am
              about the whole idea of publicising Pyramid of Peace to the wider
              world and more specifically to the Kenyan Business Community and
              asking for contributions/ reimbursement of money spent.

              One concern is that the Kenyan Business Community and Political
              community are probably linked together quite closely. It could all
              get a bit political.

              On the main Pyramid of Peace page, there are lists of names, phone
              numbers and email addresses for MS Member in the UK/Kenya/etc, which
              are completely at odds with most people's recommendations
              on 'staying safe on the internet' (from hackers/scammers, etc).
              Also, any links to Worknets or publicising our PoP Letters more
              widely would lead hackers/scammers to the same details and personal
              profiles and photos.

              Promoting peace-making through inspiring stories is a noble aim, but
              in my opinion, I think it's time for a major consultation exercise
              with all the people involved, to see whether they approve of this
              whole idea, and how much detail they want released.

              There are many different ways to consult people. Would it be
              possible to make it the subject of a Thursday chat, for example?

              It may be better to have a straight-forward story page, without any
              hyperlinks to other sites like Worknets and without contact details
              for individual MS Members.

              Ricardo

              --- In learningfromeachoth er@yahoogroups. com, ms@... wrote:
              >
              > Hi Ricardo,
              >
              > Thank you for raising your concerns. I invite others too, as well.
              >
              > I've removed your name from the "online team" on the right side
              bar. In
              > the timeline down the center of the page, I replaced Ricardo with
              R. So
              > Ricardo shouldn't appear anywhere on the page.
              >
              > Your name does still appear in letters and wiki pages that we link
              to.
              > Ricardo also appears on our audit report
              > http://www.pyramido fpeace.net/ timebanks/ report.php
              >
              > Is that fine? Please let me know. We can make more changes as
              > circumstances change. Also, you can edit the main page, it is
              based on
              > our wiki pages:
              > http://www.worknets .org/wiki. cgi?PyramidOfPea ceTimeline
              > http://www.worknets .org/wiki. cgi?KenyaTeam
              > http://www.worknets .org/wiki. cgi?OnlineTeam
              >
              > I will write more separately about my intentions. I acted pretty
              much as
              > an individual then and now. I didn't consult with anybody
              regarding the
              > $10,000 that I incurred in debt or the two months that I worked
              full time.
              > I'm working openly so that people can consult me and correct me
              as they
              > like along the way.
              >
              > Thank you, Ricardo!
              >
              > Andrius
              >
              > Andrius Kulikauskas
              > Minciu Sodas
              > http://www.ms. lt
              > ms@...
              >
              > ------------ --------- ---------
              >
              > Hi Andrius
              > can I raise an issue that is concerning me a little? You
              > mentioned publicising the story of Pyramid of Peace to the Kenyan
              > Business Community, in the hopes of getting some re-imbursement of
              > money spent. Whether or not this actually works and you (MS)
              receive
              > any money, the issue that concerns me is whether you've consulted
              > widely with the MS Members involved to see whether they want you to
              > do this or not.
              >
              > >From my point of view, I prefer any small financial contribution I
              > made (for airtime etc) to be low-key and discrete. I don't want it
              > promoting widely in letters and articles. I don't know whether
              other
              > MS Members feel have the same or different views on this.
              >
              > Could I at least make one small request? In any history of the
              > Pyramid of Peace that you publish on public websites or send to the
              > Kenyan Business Community, I'd prefer it if you didn't hyper-link
              my
              > username Ricardo to my Worknets Profile page. I don't want my
              > Worknets pages to be used for 'publishing to the whole world'. I
              > prefer to use my Worknets pages as a 'work-space for ideas in
              > development' . In that sense, they are a bit like an engineer's
              > notebook or 'project documents', shared with colleagues. That's
              just
              > the way I prefer to use Worknets. Other users may use their pages
              in
              > a completely different way, trying to get maximum publicity for
              > projects. It's just a question of personal preference.
              >
              > It raises interesting issues to do with 'putting something in the
              > public domain' and permissions. Does putting something in the
              public
              > domain mean that other people can publicise things or 'push' your
              > pages at other people, such as the Kenyan Business Community,
              > without checking with the author? Really, I'm just asking to be
              > consulted before any 'unexpected uses' are made.
              >
              > In fact, rather than just remove the hyperlink to Worknets, I'd
              > prefer my name not to appear at all in the history of the Pyramid
              of
              > Peace, if you publicise it to the Kenyan Business Community or
              > similar groups. Is that possible, Andrius, or have you already
              > published it?
              >
              > I hope this doesn't sound like I'm criticising you. The tone
              doesn't
              > always come across well in writing. I'm really just trying to set
              > out how I'd like the information to be used.
              >
              > Have a nice day.
              >
              > Ricardo
              >


            • Pamela McLean
              Dear Andrius and Everyone. I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted my attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 18, 2009
                Dear Andrius and Everyone.

                I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted my attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the voices expressing concerns:

                I would be  pleased to see the general story of PoP known more widely - but definitely without any sensitive information.

                I strongly share the concerns expressed about the appropriate ways of telling the PoP story. Initially I was very pleased to see all the information brought together, because I think the story is worth telling. Gathering everything together is a useful first stage in telling the story accurately, but accurate telling is not the same as telling everything. I agree absolutely that it would be completely inappropriate to push any sensitive information out to people who might use it wrongly. I would like to see much of the information that was shared during the turmoil removed from the public domain to protect the people involved, as soon as possible. This is urgent and important.

                I am also concerned about Andrius' financial situation. He responded with total commitment when there was a need for money and nowhere near enough coming in. He now has large debts because he funded so much of PoP personally. I think PoP was an amazing achievemnt and I feel very privelaged to have been connected in some small way with the courageous and decisive people who were active in PoP.

                I would be very pleased if a result of telling the story of PoP was to bring Andrius paid work. I would like to see him with enough appropriate well-paid work to more than pay his debts.

                However I am not happy with the idea of "asking for reimbursement". It seems completely inapporpriate for a variety of reasons.

                Of course if Andrius wants to ask for reimbursement then obviously it is a personal choice - but if he does  then I think it should be done on a personal basis (ie Andrius asking for Andrius) not "for the MS lab".

                Andrius I respect so much of what you do, and I appreciate the opportunities you have given me within Minciu Sodas for personal growth, but, as you know, I do not always agree with you. Certainly this is an area where I do not agree. I add my voice to those who are asking you to rethink, to remove sensitive information, to not ask for reimbursement, and to not "speak for everyone"   when you are really speaking for yourself, and perhaps assuming that everyone will be in agreement.

                Pam


              • ricardoolpc
                Hi Andrius I said I d email you after our chat today about the issue of reimbursement, but I ll reply here instead, so everyone can see it. If you look at the
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 19, 2009
                  Hi Andrius
                  I said I'd email you after our chat today about the issue
                  of reimbursement, but I'll reply here instead, so everyone can see
                  it.

                  If you look at the messages in this thread and at Janet's message in
                  LFEO group (link below), you'll see that Pam, Janet, Ken Owino,
                  Samwel and I are not happy with the idea of asking the Kenyan
                  Business Community for reimbursement of donations made during the
                  Pyramid of Peace and the election violence. As I explained this
                  morning, many of us think it could undermine good will and
                  relationship with other organisations that have been carefully built
                  up. It would change the way people look at PoP as a group and at
                  individuals. I think the chances of any businesses giving any money
                  are so low that it's not worth taking the risk. Janet and Ken said
                  that even if you did manage to raise any money, they would prefer it
                  to go to IDP Camps.

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learningfromeachother/message/2538

                  I know you contributed more than most people in monetary terms. I
                  like Pam's suggestion of earning money by MS working for the Kenyan
                  business community. That sounds far more acceptable than asking for
                  compensation/reimbursement.

                  During the election violence, you provided strong leadership to
                  implement PoP. Now that things are a bit more peaceful, I think
                  decisions that affect the reputations and relationships of all the
                  PoP members should be more democratic and taken after wide
                  consultation.

                  For those people not at the chat today, I suggested that even a 51%
                  democratic majority decision isn't really adequate. If asking for
                  reimbursement would damage individual people's relationships with
                  other organisations or projects, then the inividuals should be able
                  to veto it.

                  The other issues (publishing contact details and hyperlinking to
                  Worknets) are of lower importance, but still fairly important.

                  I don't know whether many people are particularly concerned about
                  their contact details being published and accessible to spammers,
                  begging letters, etc. It would be useful to have a consultation
                  exercise. I just noticed that you had included all the names, phone
                  numbers and email addresses of PoP members on the main PoP page. As
                  I said this morning, it may be better to just provide one PoP
                  contact email for readers of 'The history of PoP' to contact.

                  During the election violence, people were desperate to get help and
                  they published their own contact details in yahoo group messages or
                  worknets (which they may wish to reconsider now) and they may have
                  published other people's contact details, without taking the time to
                  ask permission.

                  Although people may have thought they understood the implications of
                  putting messages in the public domain, now may be a good time to
                  have some discussions and review any possible problems. I said that
                  I prefer to work in a low-profile way, and didn't expect my worknets
                  pages to be hyperlinked to high-profile pages like the story of PoP.

                  http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/

                  These issues aren't just Intellectual Property Rights issues (what
                  people are 'allowed' to do with your info). It's more a question of
                  observing normal, everyday courtesies and asking permission ("May I
                  do such and such with the information you posted").

                  All these issues are probably of more importance to people working
                  on the ground in Kenya than to me in the UK.

                  Ricardo


                  --- In learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com, Pamela McLean
                  <pam54321@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Andrius and Everyone.
                  >
                  > I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted
                  my
                  > attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the voices
                  > expressing concerns:
                  >
                  > I would be pleased to see the general story of PoP known more
                  widely - but
                  > definitely without any sensitive information.
                  >
                  > I strongly share the concerns expressed about the appropriate ways
                  of
                  > telling the PoP story. Initially I was very pleased to see all the
                  > information brought together, because I think the story is worth
                  telling.
                  > Gathering everything together is a useful first stage in telling
                  the story
                  > accurately, but accurate telling is not the same as telling
                  everything. I
                  > agree absolutely that it would be completely inappropriate to push
                  any
                  > sensitive information out to people who might use it wrongly. I
                  would like
                  > to see much of the information that was shared during the turmoil
                  removed
                  > from the public domain to protect the people involved, as soon as
                  possible.
                  > This is urgent and important.
                  >
                  > I am also concerned about Andrius' financial situation. He
                  responded with
                  > total commitment when there was a need for money and nowhere near
                  enough
                  > coming in. He now has large debts because he funded so much of PoP
                  > personally. I think PoP was an amazing achievemnt and I feel very
                  privelaged
                  > to have been connected in some small way with the courageous and
                  decisive
                  > people who were active in PoP.
                  >
                  > I would be very pleased if a result of telling the story of PoP
                  was to bring
                  > Andrius paid work. I would like to see him with enough appropriate
                  well-paid
                  > work to more than pay his debts.
                  >
                  > However I am not happy with the idea of "asking for
                  reimbursement". It seems
                  > completely inapporpriate for a variety of reasons.
                  >
                  > Of course if Andrius wants to ask for reimbursement then obviously
                  it is a
                  > personal choice - but if he does then I think it should be done
                  on a
                  > personal basis (ie Andrius asking for Andrius) not "for the MS
                  lab".
                  >
                  > Andrius I respect so much of what you do, and I appreciate the
                  opportunities
                  > you have given me within Minciu Sodas for personal growth, but, as
                  you know,
                  > I do not always agree with you. Certainly this is an area where I
                  do not
                  > agree. I add my voice to those who are asking you to rethink, to
                  remove
                  > sensitive information, to not ask for reimbursement, and to
                  not "speak for
                  > everyone" when you are really speaking for yourself, and perhaps
                  assuming
                  > that everyone will be in agreement.
                  >
                  > Pam
                  >
                • Peter Burgess
                  Dear Colleagues Thank you all ... this is a very important issue and conversation. I am very much aware that I do not know enough about fund raising ... but it
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 19, 2009
                    Dear Colleagues

                    Thank you all ... this is a very important issue and conversation.

                    I am very much aware that I do not know enough about fund raising ...
                    but it would appear that fund raising is much more about the "sizzle"
                    than the "steak"!

                    The strategy for fund raising and the strategy for doing things of
                    value are quite different and should probably be kept quite separate.
                    Certainly they should not be co-mingled and make both lose value.

                    In the case of some of our initiatives, co-mingling can create danger.
                    Some of what we are trying to do is "hard ball"! About 2 years ago a
                    Nigerian colleague who was making progress exposing large scale
                    corruption within the Nigerian government health budget got killed ...
                    who killed him ... why he was killed ... has never been explained. But
                    the point is that we need to make sure that our work does not put
                    people at undue risk. My original plans to have "open" information has
                    been modified because of this.

                    The PoP story should give a very good platform for fund-raising ...
                    but the story is going to compete with thousands of other stories that
                    are already in play ... and the PoP story has to be linked to a sexy
                    and credible organization. I don't know how to do this ... but I would
                    argue that WE might think ms has these characteristics ... but that is
                    not what matters. The question is what do people with funds want to
                    see organizationally.

                    Peter
                    ____________
                    Peter Burgess
                    The Transparency and Accountability Network: Tr-Ac-Net in New York
                    www.tr-ac-net.org
                    Community Analytics (CA)
                    Integrated Malaria Management Consortium (IMMC)
                    917 432 1191 or 212 772 6918 peterbnyc@...



                    On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:05 PM, ricardoolpc <ricardoolpc@...> wrote:
                    > Hi Andrius
                    > I said I'd email you after our chat today about the issue
                    > of reimbursement, but I'll reply here instead, so everyone can see
                    > it.
                    >
                    > If you look at the messages in this thread and at Janet's message in
                    > LFEO group (link below), you'll see that Pam, Janet, Ken Owino,
                    > Samwel and I are not happy with the idea of asking the Kenyan
                    > Business Community for reimbursement of donations made during the
                    > Pyramid of Peace and the election violence. As I explained this
                    > morning, many of us think it could undermine good will and
                    > relationship with other organisations that have been carefully built
                    > up. It would change the way people look at PoP as a group and at
                    > individuals. I think the chances of any businesses giving any money
                    > are so low that it's not worth taking the risk. Janet and Ken said
                    > that even if you did manage to raise any money, they would prefer it
                    > to go to IDP Camps.
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learningfromeachother/message/2538
                    >
                    > I know you contributed more than most people in monetary terms. I
                    > like Pam's suggestion of earning money by MS working for the Kenyan
                    > business community. That sounds far more acceptable than asking for
                    > compensation/reimbursement.
                    >
                    > During the election violence, you provided strong leadership to
                    > implement PoP. Now that things are a bit more peaceful, I think
                    > decisions that affect the reputations and relationships of all the
                    > PoP members should be more democratic and taken after wide
                    > consultation.
                    >
                    > For those people not at the chat today, I suggested that even a 51%
                    > democratic majority decision isn't really adequate. If asking for
                    > reimbursement would damage individual people's relationships with
                    > other organisations or projects, then the inividuals should be able
                    > to veto it.
                    >
                    > The other issues (publishing contact details and hyperlinking to
                    > Worknets) are of lower importance, but still fairly important.
                    >
                    > I don't know whether many people are particularly concerned about
                    > their contact details being published and accessible to spammers,
                    > begging letters, etc. It would be useful to have a consultation
                    > exercise. I just noticed that you had included all the names, phone
                    > numbers and email addresses of PoP members on the main PoP page. As
                    > I said this morning, it may be better to just provide one PoP
                    > contact email for readers of 'The history of PoP' to contact.
                    >
                    > During the election violence, people were desperate to get help and
                    > they published their own contact details in yahoo group messages or
                    > worknets (which they may wish to reconsider now) and they may have
                    > published other people's contact details, without taking the time to
                    > ask permission.
                    >
                    > Although people may have thought they understood the implications of
                    > putting messages in the public domain, now may be a good time to
                    > have some discussions and review any possible problems. I said that
                    > I prefer to work in a low-profile way, and didn't expect my worknets
                    > pages to be hyperlinked to high-profile pages like the story of PoP.
                    >
                    > http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/
                    >
                    > These issues aren't just Intellectual Property Rights issues (what
                    > people are 'allowed' to do with your info). It's more a question of
                    > observing normal, everyday courtesies and asking permission ("May I
                    > do such and such with the information you posted").
                    >
                    > All these issues are probably of more importance to people working
                    > on the ground in Kenya than to me in the UK.
                    >
                    > Ricardo
                    >
                    > --- In learningfromeachother@yahoogroups.com, Pamela McLean
                    >
                    > <pam54321@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Dear Andrius and Everyone.
                    >>
                    >> I am very busy now and seldom read lists - but this has attracted
                    > my
                    >> attention and I feel I should respond to add my voice to the voices
                    >> expressing concerns:
                    >>
                    >> I would be pleased to see the general story of PoP known more
                    > widely - but
                    >> definitely without any sensitive information.
                    >>
                    >> I strongly share the concerns expressed about the appropriate ways
                    > of
                    >> telling the PoP story. Initially I was very pleased to see all the
                    >> information brought together, because I think the story is worth
                    > telling.
                    >> Gathering everything together is a useful first stage in telling
                    > the story
                    >> accurately, but accurate telling is not the same as telling
                    > everything. I
                    >> agree absolutely that it would be completely inappropriate to push
                    > any
                    >> sensitive information out to people who might use it wrongly. I
                    > would like
                    >> to see much of the information that was shared during the turmoil
                    > removed
                    >> from the public domain to protect the people involved, as soon as
                    > possible.
                    >> This is urgent and important.
                    >>
                    >> I am also concerned about Andrius' financial situation. He
                    > responded with
                    >> total commitment when there was a need for money and nowhere near
                    > enough
                    >> coming in. He now has large debts because he funded so much of PoP
                    >> personally. I think PoP was an amazing achievemnt and I feel very
                    > privelaged
                    >> to have been connected in some small way with the courageous and
                    > decisive
                    >> people who were active in PoP.
                    >>
                    >> I would be very pleased if a result of telling the story of PoP
                    > was to bring
                    >> Andrius paid work. I would like to see him with enough appropriate
                    > well-paid
                    >> work to more than pay his debts.
                    >>
                    >> However I am not happy with the idea of "asking for
                    > reimbursement". It seems
                    >> completely inapporpriate for a variety of reasons.
                    >>
                    >> Of course if Andrius wants to ask for reimbursement then obviously
                    > it is a
                    >> personal choice - but if he does then I think it should be done
                    > on a
                    >> personal basis (ie Andrius asking for Andrius) not "for the MS
                    > lab".
                    >>
                    >> Andrius I respect so much of what you do, and I appreciate the
                    > opportunities
                    >> you have given me within Minciu Sodas for personal growth, but, as
                    > you know,
                    >> I do not always agree with you. Certainly this is an area where I
                    > do not
                    >> agree. I add my voice to those who are asking you to rethink, to
                    > remove
                    >> sensitive information, to not ask for reimbursement, and to
                    > not "speak for
                    >> everyone" when you are really speaking for yourself, and perhaps
                    > assuming
                    >> that everyone will be in agreement.
                    >>
                    >> Pam
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                  • Pamela McLean
                    Andrius and Everyone Regarding PoP one year later: it seems to me there are many issues mixed together here, and therefore there is confusion. The issues
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 22, 2009
                      Andrius and Everyone

                      Regarding PoP one year later: it seems to me there are many issues mixed together here, and therefore there is confusion. The issues include appropriate use of information, the financing of PoP, Andrius' financial situation, and wider issues relating to the world as it is, the world as we might like it to be, the role of corporations, access to resources etc.  

                      I really do not have time at present to follow lists and contribute to them, but I am really concerned about the PoP one year on situation and so I want to contribute to the discussion even if it cannot be in the depth that I would like. I will write this email and then I will probably drop out of the discussion. I will hope to hear that there has been what I would regard as a satisfactory outcome.

                      I was not able to attend the recent chat room discussion but my impression is that although some changes have been made the issue remains unresolved.

                      ~ Immediate concerns ref information and safety

                      My immediate  concern is that some people will be put at risk by the action Andrius is suggesting. Andrius, I do not understand how you can be considering this action of pushing out detailed information about PoP people and activities now in the way you have described. I undersatnd you have made soem changes, but that sensitive infromation is still included. If so, then that seems to me to run completely against the original spirit of PoP. Information that was exchanged during PoP was exchanged in highly unusual circumstances in order to save lives. It was exchanged openly so that it could be passed on rapidly. It was there so that people who needed to "pull" that information in order to help could do so. It was available for everyone involved, so that people could find it and use it for the greater good. To re-use that information now ("pushing" it out to people who are not actively supportive and are possibly antagonistic ) in a way that could endanger lives (or cause other problems) seems to go completely against the original objectives and spirit of PoP.

                      I think I would not want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if sensitive information about people involved in PoP is "pushed" out to people now, or at any time in the future.

                      I realise that going through all the PoP related information, to edit out sensitive information, would be a time consuming task. So, for now, it might be best to simply move the archive out of the public domain. It could be accessed by people ("researchers/reporters") who could be trusted to tell the story accurately in ways that would not cause any potential problems to those involved. Gradually the "researchers/reporters" could release information that was not sensitive. With the passing of time the information would all become less sensitive - but for now I think we should be protective rather than public.

                      ~ Financing of PoP

                      Regarding the financing of PoP, as I see it, what is done is done. What was given has been given. End of story.

                      ~ Andrius financial situation

                      I am concerned for Andrius and the financial situation he finds himself in because of the way he gave money "when there was none to give" and so he is now burdened with debt. Giving money that you don't really have is a continual problem for anyone who lives in a country where it is possible to get credit.  It is hard to say to someone who asks for help  "No, because I have no more money." when the banks are saying "Don't worry if you have no money. Use our money and pay it back later!"  At what point is it right to say  say "I will not give any more, no matter what, because I cannot see how I will pay back, in fact I cannot even see how I will pay the interest on the loan."

                      I would like to help find Andrius a way to service his loans and repay his debts.

                      ~ Andrius asking for reimbursement

                      I do not agree that he should ask to be directly re-imbursed.

                      Of course if Andrius wants to see it differently and wants to ask for re-imbursement from somewhere then that is for him to decide. It seems totally illogical to me. Unless someone has agreed to lend you money in advance I don't see how you can ask for reimbursement.

                      I think I would not want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if Andrius decides to ask for "reimbursement" for Minciu Sodas.

                      I am not sure if I would want to continue to be associated with Minciu Sodas if Andrius decides to ask for "reimbursement" for himself. If that is his decision then I will not feel confident that I still respect his decision making.

                      ~ Wider issues relating to the world as it is, the world as we might like it to be,

                      There are wider issues in this discussion relating to the world as it is and the world as we might like it to be. I agree that there are many changes that we might like to see, especially regarding how resources are made available to people who need them, but I do not have time to explore those issues just now.

                      The closest I can get to those issues is simply to look at the gap between the world-as-it-is and the world-we-might-like-to-see and how we might reduce the gap . I don't see that asking for reimbursement for Andrius/PoP would do anything positive in reducing the gap. In fact I think it such a bizarre suggestion that it would be a backward step. The suggestion itself would probably increase the apparent distance between Minciu Sodas and outsiders in a negative way. It would reduce the credibility of Minciu Sodas as an organisation that outsiders could take seriously and work with. We need the help of outsiders if we are to narrow the gap between the  world-as-it-is and the world-we-might-like-to-see.

                      ~ Corporations and access to resources

                      As I understand it, people in organisations can only do things that the organsation is set up to do. Making retrospective payments to individuals or organsiations that have been invovled in peacemaking activities or other sociallly beneficial activities seems way off what they are supposed to be doing. 

                      I recommend watching the film The Corporation (which examines the nature of Corporations) before considering approaching any.  (Basically the film explores how corporations  are set up legally, and how they behave, and concludes that if "The Corporation" was a person it would by a psychopath.) There is little point in "appealing to the better nature" of a psychopath.

                      It is arguable that some corporations are changing in response to external and internal pressures and are becoming more ecologically and socially responsible. As that change happens perhaps there may be opportunities for Minciu Sodas to engage with corporations, but only if Minciu Sodas is taken seriously - and asking for remimbursement for PoP activites from corporations will, in my judgement, undermine any chance of being taken seriously.

                      I think if Minciu Sodas does want to engage with compnaies then it might do better to make some approach through an appropriate Corporate Social Responsibility programme, but with an eye to the future, not the past.

                      ~ Conclusion

                      Andrius, I hope very much that you will remove sensitive information from the public domain. I also hope you will not go ahead with the idea of asking for reimbursement for PoP (neither for MS nor for youself). I have explained above that it is possible I may not feel able to stay in Minciu Sodas, depending on what happens over PoP. I will hope to be at the chat room for the First Thursday in March, unless I hear that you have acted over PoP in ways that I con't support. I am not following Minciu Sodas threads  at present as I do not have time for groups, so I may not see further disucssion about this issue.

                      I hope that even if I leave Minciu Sodas you and I will remain on good terms with each other as individuals, and that I will continue to be incontact with other people from Minciu Sodas. Whatever the outcome I will continue to appreciate all the opportunites for learning and meeting people which I have enjoyed here. Until now I have been very happy to be associatedd with Minciu Sodas and,whatever happens in the future, I will continue to speak highly of what it has done in the past.
                       
                      Pam


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