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Lean Study Tour - Day 4

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  • Mary Poppendieck
    Here is another post about our Toyota tour on Day 2: http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPrivile ged.aspx On Day 4 we toured a
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 23 3:56 PM
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      Here is another post about our Toyota tour on Day 2: http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPrivileged.aspx

       

      On Day 4 we toured a plant which prints magazines, and two different companies doing agile software development – these two visits were arranged by Kenji Hiranabe. The interesting thing is that companies doing agile development are very much are an exception here in Japan. It is also interesting that they both deliver software under fixed price contracts.

       

      Then we went to the “Vikings meet Samurai” event, where the Danes and Swedes (and a few others) attended to a joint meeting of two Japanese agile communities. We had introductions, and then a panel discussion. The panel was filled fish-bowl style so everyone on the tour had a chance to be on the panel at some point.  Later we all went to dinner together, and after a while the Vikings and Samurai exchanged drinking songs…. you can imagine that we had a lot of fun.

       

      Mary Poppendieck

      952-934-7998

      www.poppendieck.com

      Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software Development

       

    • Andrew Walker
      Mary, does fixed price contracts infer fixed price, time and scope so prevalent in the US? If so, could you please explain more about the agile nature of
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 23 6:26 PM
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        Mary, does 'fixed price contracts' infer 'fixed price, time and scope' so prevalent in the US? If so, could you please explain more about the agile nature of dealing with such things - I'm sure I am missing something, but it sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.



        --- In leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Poppendieck" <mary@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here is another post about our Toyota tour on Day 2:
        > http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPrivile
        > ged.aspx
        >
        >
        >
        > On Day 4 we toured a plant which prints magazines, and two different
        > companies doing agile software development - these two visits were arranged
        > by Kenji Hiranabe. The interesting thing is that companies doing agile
        > development are very much are an exception here in Japan. It is also
        > interesting that they both deliver software under fixed price contracts.
        >
        >
        >
        > Then we went to the "Vikings meet Samurai" event, where the Danes and Swedes
        > (and a few others) attended to a joint meeting of two Japanese agile
        > communities. We had introductions, and then a panel discussion. The panel
        > was filled fish-bowl style so everyone on the tour had a chance to be on the
        > panel at some point. Later we all went to dinner together, and after a
        > while the Vikings and Samurai exchanged drinking songs.. you can imagine
        > that we had a lot of fun.
        >
        >
        >
        > Mary Poppendieck
        >
        > 952-934-7998
        >
        > www.poppendieck.com
        >
        > Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software
        > Development
        >
      • Xavier Quesada Allue
        Hi Mary, In the blog post it says that you think this is the first time a Toyota IT manager speaks publicly about how they develop software. It also says that
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 24 2:17 AM
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          Hi Mary,

          In the blog post it says that you think this is the first time a Toyota IT manager speaks publicly about how they develop software. It also says that Toyota is waterfall, something I had already heard many times but mostly as rumour. It's nice to have it confirmed so we can let our imaginations fly regarding how they manage to get things done. I hope you guys on the tour manage to gather enough insights on how they work in this "Lean Waterfall" way and you can later share them with us!

          So many questions come to my mind... What do they think of the way we in the Lean/Agile community work? How aware are they of the differences? How open are they to new ways of working? Do you see any signs of the "not invented here" syndrome? Would you say something like Lean Waterfall really exists there, and it works?

          Regards,
          Xavier

          On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Mary Poppendieck <mary@...> wrote:


          Here is another post about our Toyota tour on Day 2: http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPrivileged.aspx

           

          On Day 4 we toured a plant which prints magazines, and two different companies doing agile software development – these two visits were arranged by Kenji Hiranabe. The interesting thing is that companies doing agile development are very much are an exception here in Japan. It is also interesting that they both deliver software under fixed price contracts.

           

          Then we went to the “Vikings meet Samurai” event, where the Danes and Swedes (and a few others) attended to a joint meeting of two Japanese agile communities. We had introductions, and then a panel discussion. The panel was filled fish-bowl style so everyone on the tour had a chance to be on the panel at some point.  Later we all went to dinner together, and after a while the Vikings and Samurai exchanged drinking songs…. you can imagine that we had a lot of fun.

           

          Mary Poppendieck

          952-934-7998

          www.poppendieck.com

          Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software Development

           




          --
          Xavier Quesada Allue
          Visual Management Blog
          http://tinyurl.com/visualmanagement
        • Andrew Walker
          ... http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPri vile ... arranged ... contracts. ... Swedes ... panel ... on the ... a ...
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 24 9:29 AM
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            --- In leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Poppendieck" <mary@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Here is another post about our Toyota tour on Day 2:
            >
            http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPri\
            vile
            > ged.aspx
            >
            >
            >
            > On Day 4 we toured a plant which prints magazines, and two different
            > companies doing agile software development - these two visits were
            arranged
            > by Kenji Hiranabe. The interesting thing is that companies doing agile
            > development are very much are an exception here in Japan. It is also
            > interesting that they both deliver software under fixed price
            contracts.
            >
            >
            >
            > Then we went to the "Vikings meet Samurai" event, where the Danes and
            Swedes
            > (and a few others) attended to a joint meeting of two Japanese agile
            > communities. We had introductions, and then a panel discussion. The
            panel
            > was filled fish-bowl style so everyone on the tour had a chance to be
            on the
            > panel at some point. Later we all went to dinner together, and after
            a
            > while the Vikings and Samurai exchanged drinking songs.. you can
            imagine
            > that we had a lot of fun.
            >
            >
            >
            > Mary Poppendieck
            >
            > 952-934-7998
            >
            > www.poppendieck.com
            >
            > Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software
            > Development
            >
          • Mary Poppendieck
            Sorry Xavier, I have not been able to keep up with this discussion over the week.. The person we heard from at Toyota - Ishii-san - deals with embedded
            Message 5 of 6 , May 2, 2009
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              Sorry Xavier, I have not been able to keep up with this discussion over the week….

               

              The person we heard from at Toyota – Ishii-san – deals with embedded software in production automobiles.  I understand that for a prototype part, software can take a matter of days.  In production parts, the cycle was 3 months.  When you are dealing with embedded software in production hardware, a 3 month waterfall is really fast.  And note that at Toyota, people really do talk about “bad news first”, so what we heard about is what they consider a problem, as opposed to what is going well.

               

              To answer your question about agile, Ishii-san said they are studying agile, but their architecture is not particularly supportive of it.  His real motivation, as I heard his comments, is that improvement is necessary because of the late detection of defects.  I imagine that they will focus on early removal of defects, and adopt whatever processes prove (after PDCA cycles) to be more proficient at doing this. 

               

              Toyota people will not just do agile because someone says it is good.  They will look at their objectives and adopt whatever process gives them more of what they consider good.  And Toyota is  VERY good at doing this – I would not want to be competing against them!

               

              Mary Poppendieck

              952-934-7998

              www.poppendieck.com

              Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software Development

               

              From: leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Xavier Quesada Allue
              Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:17 AM
              To: leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [leandevelopment] Lean Study Tour - Day 4

               



              (

              Hi Mary,

              In the blog post it says that you think this is the first time a Toyota IT manager speaks publicly about how they develop software. It also says that Toyota is waterfall, something I had already heard many times but mostly as rumour. It's nice to have it confirmed so we can let our imaginations fly regarding how they manage to get things done. I hope you guys on the tour manage to gather enough insights on how they work in this "Lean Waterfall" way and you can later share them with us!

              So many questions come to my mind... What do they think of the way we in the Lean/Agile community work? How aware are they of the differences? How open are they to new ways of working? Do you see any signs of the "not invented here" syndrome? Would you say something like Lean Waterfall really exists there, and it works?

              Regards,
              Xavier

              On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Mary Poppendieck <mary@...> wrote:

               

              Here is another post about our Toyota tour on Day 2: http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPrivileged.aspx

               

              On Day 4 we toured a plant which prints magazines, and two different companies doing agile software development – these two visits were arranged by Kenji Hiranabe. The interesting thing is that companies doing agile development are very much are an exception here in Japan. It is also interesting that they both deliver software under fixed price contracts.

               

              Then we went to the “Vikings meet Samurai” event, where the Danes and Swedes (and a few others) attended to a joint meeting of two Japanese agile communities. We had introductions, and then a panel discussion. The panel was filled fish-bowl style so everyone on the tour had a chance to be on the panel at some point.  Later we all went to dinner together, and after a while the Vikings and Samurai exchanged drinking songs…. you can imagine that we had a lot of fun.

               

              Mary Poppendieck

              952-934-7998

              www.poppendieck.com

              Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software Development

               




              --
              Xavier Quesada Allue
              Visual Management Blog
              http://tinyurl.com/visualmanagement

            • Mary Poppendieck
              There are fixed price, time, and scope projects around the world, and Japan is no exception. These contracts are almost certainly subject to improvement via a
              Message 6 of 6 , May 2, 2009
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                There are fixed price, time, and scope projects around the world, and Japan is no exception.  These contracts are almost certainly subject to improvement via a cadence of iterations, level loading, cross-functional teams, early defect detection, and as much feedback as can realistically be injected into the development process.  You take from agile what can help in your world, and if it’s the world of fixed priced contracts, then you might not get everything, but there is plenty of room for doing  better.  Always.

                 

                Mary Poppendieck

                952-934-7998

                www.poppendieck.com

                Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software Development

                 

                From: leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Walker
                Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 03:26 AM
                To: leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [leandevelopment] Re: Lean Study Tour - Day 4

                 




                Mary, does 'fixed price contracts' infer 'fixed price, time and scope' so prevalent in the US? If so, could you please explain more about the agile nature of dealing with such things - I'm sure I am missing something, but it sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.

                --- In leandevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Poppendieck" <mary@...> wrote:

                >
                > Here is another post about our Toyota tour on Day 2:
                >
                href="http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPrivile">http://www.bestbrains.dk/Blog/2009/04/22/LeanStudyTour2009Day2FeelingPrivile
                > ged.aspx
                >
                >
                >
                > On Day 4 we toured a plant which prints magazines, and two different
                > companies doing agile software development - these two visits were
                arranged
                > by Kenji Hiranabe. The interesting thing is that companies doing agile
                > development are very much are an exception here in Japan. It is also
                > interesting that they both deliver software under fixed price contracts.
                >
                >
                >
                > Then we went to the "Vikings meet Samurai" event, where the
                Danes and Swedes
                > (and a few others) attended to a joint meeting of two Japanese agile
                > communities. We had introductions, and then a panel discussion. The panel
                > was filled fish-bowl style so everyone on the tour had a chance to be on
                the
                > panel at some point. Later we all went to dinner together, and after a
                > while the Vikings and Samurai exchanged drinking songs.. you can imagine
                > that we had a lot of fun.
                >
                >
                >
                > Mary Poppendieck
                >
                > 952-934-7998
                >
                > www.poppendieck.com
                >
                > Author of: Lean Software Development & Implementing Lean Software
                > Development
                >

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