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Time to write some real apps...

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  • Mike Austin
    It s time to write some real apps. Just want to pick peoples brains on what may be the best package for developing on Windows. Maybe a bit off topic, but
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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      It's time to write some real apps. Just want to pick peoples brains
      on what may be the best package for developing on Windows. Maybe a
      bit off topic, but maybe not.

      It must have:

      - Garbage collection
      - Access to win32 APIs
      - Access to odbc/database
      - A mature UI editor
      - Interactive debugging
      - OpenGL / 3D support
      - A reasonable price

      Target applications include OS Utilities, Information Management,
      Small Games & Simulations, Screen Savers.

      The following are a few packages that I know of and have at least
      tried their demo versions:

      Dylan + Core + GUI + Win32 + Database + Network - $250
      + Awesome language
      - Does Dylan have a 'real' UI designer?
      - Nickel and dimed with libraries
      - Dylan community??

      Dolphin Smalltalk Standard XP 5.0 - $180
      + Good UI designer
      + ODBC / TCP/IP / CDO / XML
      - Must learn the "image" way
      - Site last updated June 28, 2003?
      - OpenGL / 3D API?

      Borland C++Builder
      + Great UI designer
      + Many C++ libraries
      - No garbage collection
      - C++ (too low level)

      Sun Java
      + Good set of libraries
      - Calling win32 API?

      Microsoft C#
      - Visual Studio, bleh!

      ...

      Thanks in advance!
      Mike
    • J. Stephen Riley Silber
      ... C mon, now, Mike, don t toss a language just because of an editor. :) Visual Studio is an extremely usable environment if you take the time to use it.
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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        --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@y...>
        wrote:
        > Microsoft C#
        > - Visual Studio, bleh!

        C'mon, now, Mike, don't toss a language just because of an editor. :)

        Visual Studio is an extremely usable environment if you take the time
        to use it. Kinda like emacs in that respect, really... I admit, if
        you're not used to the Windows look'n'feel, it'll be a pain to learn.

        That being said, C# is a phenomenal language. But I would warn you
        about the .NET library. In my experience, the library has some
        SEVERE usability issues, thus making C# a no-go proposition.

        What about perl?

        Steve
      • Mike Austin
        ... editor. :) ... time ... if ... learn. ... Ok, I ll toss out C# because of the price. Somehow I think the Standard does not let you release programs or
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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          --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, "J. Stephen Riley Silber"
          <jsrs701@y...> wrote:
          > --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > Microsoft C#
          > > - Visual Studio, bleh!
          >
          > C'mon, now, Mike, don't toss a language just because of an
          editor. :)
          >
          > Visual Studio is an extremely usable environment if you take the
          time
          > to use it. Kinda like emacs in that respect, really... I admit,
          if
          > you're not used to the Windows look'n'feel, it'll be a pain to
          learn.
          >
          > That being said, C# is a phenomenal language. But I would warn you
          > about the .NET library. In my experience, the library has some
          > SEVERE usability issues, thus making C# a no-go proposition.
          >
          > What about perl?
          >
          > Steve

          Ok, I'll toss out C# because of the price. Somehow I think
          the "Standard" does not let you release programs or is grossly
          crippled.

          Perl?? I forgot the add "Easy to manage and update source" :)

          -- Mike
        • Steve Dekorte
          ... Which win32 APIs do you need to access and what do you need odbc for (as opposed to something like SQLite)? -- Steve
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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            On Mar 1, 2004, at 3:56 PM, Mike Austin wrote:
            > It must have:
            > - Garbage collection
            > - Access to win32 APIs
            > - Access to odbc/database
            > - A mature UI editor
            > - Interactive debugging
            > - OpenGL / 3D support
            > - A reasonable price

            Which win32 APIs do you need to access and what do you need odbc for
            (as opposed to something like SQLite)?

            -- Steve
          • Mike Austin
            ... for ... All the win32 APIs :) ... Hooks, Message Queues, Resources, Raw Disk Info, Taskbar, Shell, Printing, Mail, maybe Pen API You re right, all I
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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              --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, Steve Dekorte <steve@d...> wrote:
              >
              > On Mar 1, 2004, at 3:56 PM, Mike Austin wrote:
              > > It must have:
              > > - Garbage collection
              > > - Access to win32 APIs
              > > - Access to odbc/database
              > > - A mature UI editor
              > > - Interactive debugging
              > > - OpenGL / 3D support
              > > - A reasonable price
              >
              > Which win32 APIs do you need to access and what do you need odbc
              for
              > (as opposed to something like SQLite)?
              >
              > -- Steve

              All the win32 APIs :) ... Hooks, Message Queues, Resources, Raw Disk
              Info, Taskbar, Shell, Printing, Mail, maybe Pen API

              You're right, all I really need is something like SQLite. What's the
              license on that btw?

              -- Mike
            • Chris Double
              On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:56:53 -0000, Mike Austin ... I have used Functional Developer extensively for many of the tasks you outline. It
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:56:53 -0000, "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@...>
                said:
                > Dylan + Core + GUI + Win32 + Database + Network - $250
                > + Awesome language
                > - Does Dylan have a 'real' UI designer?
                > - Nickel and dimed with libraries
                > - Dylan community??

                I have used Functional Developer extensively for many of the tasks you
                outline. It works fine. It does not have a UI designer at all. Instead
                UI's are built using Dylan code with layout managers. It's not too
                difficult and I actually prefer it to GUI builders. Unfortunately there
                is no 'Dylan Community' that regularly discusses this product that I'm
                aware of. Pity, but you could try resurrecting the community in
                comp.lang.dylan. There is a community around Gwydion Dylan, the open
                source compiler, and they'll enthusastically help you in regards to the
                Dylan language I'm sure.

                > Dolphin Smalltalk Standard XP 5.0 - $180
                > + Good UI designer
                > + ODBC / TCP/IP / CDO / XML
                > - Must learn the "image" way
                > - Site last updated June 28, 2003?
                > - OpenGL / 3D API?

                This is another fantastic product. I only have the older version 4 of
                Dolphin Smalltalk but it is supurb. I highly recommend it. The usenet
                group comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin is active, including lots of input from
                the product developers. If you can find a Usenet server that provides the
                group though.

                Chris.
                --
                Chris Double
                chris.double@...
              • Steve Dekorte
                ... You sure you need all that? What app are you writing? Do you really want non-portable applications? ... I think it s public domain - which is free for
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                  On Mar 1, 2004, at 4:27 PM, Mike Austin wrote:
                  > All the win32 APIs :) ... Hooks, Message Queues, Resources, Raw Disk
                  > Info, Taskbar, Shell, Printing, Mail, maybe Pen API

                  You sure you need all that? What app are you writing?
                  Do you really want non-portable applications?

                  > You're right, all I really need is something like SQLite. What's the
                  > license on that btw?

                  I think it's public domain - which is free for commercial use.

                  -- Steve
                • Chris Double
                  On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:27:18 -0000, Mike Austin ... It is public domain . Chris. -- Chris Double chris.double@double.co.nz
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                    On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:27:18 -0000, "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@...>
                    said:
                    > You're right, all I really need is something like SQLite. What's the
                    > license on that btw?

                    It is 'public domain'.

                    Chris.
                    --
                    Chris Double
                    chris.double@...
                  • Steve Dekorte
                    ... Does Dolphin have a per-seat license cost if you distribute an app written with it? Also, does the end user need to download and install a bunch of dlls
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                      On Mar 1, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Chris Double wrote:
                      > This is another fantastic product. I only have the older version 4 of
                      > Dolphin Smalltalk but it is supurb. I highly recommend it. The usenet
                      > group comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin is active, including lots of input
                      > from
                      > the product developers. If you can find a Usenet server that provides
                      > the
                      > group though.

                      Does Dolphin have a per-seat license cost if you distribute an app
                      written with it? Also, does the end user need to download and install a
                      bunch of dlls and what not?

                      -- Steve
                    • Chris Double
                      On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:35:43 -0800, Steve Dekorte ... I can only speak for the version 4 product which is what I have used. No it does not
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                        On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:35:43 -0800, "Steve Dekorte" <steve@...>
                        said:
                        >
                        > Does Dolphin have a per-seat license cost if you distribute an app
                        > written with it? Also, does the end user need to download and install a
                        > bunch of dlls and what not?

                        I can only speak for the version 4 product which is what I have used. No
                        it does not have a per-seat license cost for apps written in it. Yes the
                        user does need to install a small DLL. Modules for Microsoft Installer
                        are provided that install it automatically.

                        Chris.
                        --
                        Chris Double
                        chris.double@...
                      • Alberto Demichelis
                        Visual studio + C# or VB.NET (I also like the C++) In my opinion is incredibly cheap for the kind of productivity get(talking about the enterprise architect
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                          Visual studio + C# or VB.NET (I also like the C++)
                          In my opinion is incredibly cheap for the kind of productivity get(talking about the enterprise architect version).
                          I'm recentrly developing a distributed app that deals with HW(managed interface c++/kernel driver)
                          autodeploys itself via web and run a rich .NET client in a sandbox that
                          talk with the server via Web Methods.
                          Except the C++ part, the rest was running(rough gui) in 1 day of work(in my spare time)
                          and I never used C# for more than a dialog before, neither bougth a book about it.
                          Plus stuff like MSDN is unvaluable.
                          I m not a MS evangelist but right now I just can't see any other better option for pro development on Win32.

                          my 0.2$ cents
                          ciao
                          Alberto


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@...>
                          To: <langsmiths@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 7:56 AM
                          Subject: [langsmiths] Time to write some real apps...


                          : It's time to write some real apps. Just want to pick peoples brains
                          : on what may be the best package for developing on Windows. Maybe a
                          : bit off topic, but maybe not.
                          :
                          : It must have:
                          :
                          : - Garbage collection
                          : - Access to win32 APIs
                          : - Access to odbc/database
                          : - A mature UI editor
                          : - Interactive debugging
                          : - OpenGL / 3D support
                          : - A reasonable price
                          :
                          : Target applications include OS Utilities, Information Management,
                          : Small Games & Simulations, Screen Savers.
                          :
                          : The following are a few packages that I know of and have at least
                          : tried their demo versions:
                          :
                          : Dylan + Core + GUI + Win32 + Database + Network - $250
                          : + Awesome language
                          : - Does Dylan have a 'real' UI designer?
                          : - Nickel and dimed with libraries
                          : - Dylan community??
                          :
                          : Dolphin Smalltalk Standard XP 5.0 - $180
                          : + Good UI designer
                          : + ODBC / TCP/IP / CDO / XML
                          : - Must learn the "image" way
                          : - Site last updated June 28, 2003?
                          : - OpenGL / 3D API?
                          :
                          : Borland C++Builder
                          : + Great UI designer
                          : + Many C++ libraries
                          : - No garbage collection
                          : - C++ (too low level)
                          :
                          : Sun Java
                          : + Good set of libraries
                          : - Calling win32 API?
                          :
                          : Microsoft C#
                          : - Visual Studio, bleh!
                          :
                          : ...
                          :
                          : Thanks in advance!
                          : Mike
                          :
                          :
                          :
                          :
                          :
                          :
                          : Yahoo! Groups Links
                          :
                          :
                          :
                          :
                          :
                          :
                        • Daniel Ehrenberg
                          I understand that just about everyone who subscribes to this list has responded with their favorite language (second to their langsmith one, of course), but I
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                            I understand that just about everyone who subscribes
                            to this list has responded with their favorite
                            language (second to their langsmith one, of course),
                            but I think Python might be the best for this.

                            > It's time to write some real apps. Just want to
                            > pick peoples brains
                            > on what may be the best package for developing on
                            > Windows. Maybe a
                            > bit off topic, but maybe not.
                            >
                            > It must have:
                            >
                            > - Garbage collection
                            yes
                            > - Access to win32 APIs
                            win32all
                            > - Access to odbc/database
                            win32all
                            > - A mature UI editor
                            wxglade, boa constructor
                            > - Interactive debugging
                            just type 'python'
                            > - OpenGL / 3D support
                            pyopengl
                            > - A reasonable price
                            free
                            >
                            > Target applications include OS Utilities,
                            > Information Management,
                            > Small Games & Simulations, Screen Savers.
                            >
                            > The following are a few packages that I know of and
                            > have at least
                            > tried their demo versions:
                            >
                            > Dylan + Core + GUI + Win32 + Database + Network -
                            > $250
                            > + Awesome language
                            > - Does Dylan have a 'real' UI designer?
                            Python does
                            > - Nickel and dimed with libraries
                            Python has tons of libraries
                            > - Dylan community??
                            Python has a very quickly growing community
                            >
                            > Dolphin Smalltalk Standard XP 5.0 - $180
                            > + Good UI designer
                            > + ODBC / TCP/IP / CDO / XML
                            > - Must learn the "image" way
                            No images with Python
                            > - Site last updated June 28, 2003?
                            2.3.3 finalized December 19 2004, but CVS work on 2.4
                            very active
                            > - OpenGL / 3D API?
                            Python has one
                            >
                            > Borland C++Builder
                            > + Great UI designer
                            > + Many C++ libraries
                            > - No garbage collection
                            > - C++ (too low level)
                            Python fixes these language problems
                            >
                            > Sun Java
                            > + Good set of libraries
                            > - Calling win32 API?
                            Python has win32 and ctypes, which can, together,
                            access just about all of the win32 api
                            >
                            > Microsoft C#
                            > - Visual Studio, bleh!
                            PyCrust
                            >
                            > ...
                            >
                            > Thanks in advance!
                            > Mike

                            __________________________________
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                          • Mike Austin
                            ... Ok, I just downloaded the latest Python 2.3, wxWidgets and Spe. Looks nice but just not clean . wxGlide seems to force a grid layout and there s no
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 1, 2004
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                              --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ehrenberg
                              <littledanehren@y...> wrote:
                              > I understand that just about everyone who subscribes
                              > to this list has responded with their favorite
                              > language (second to their langsmith one, of course),
                              > but I think Python might be the best for this.

                              Ok, I just downloaded the latest Python 2.3, wxWidgets and Spe.
                              Looks nice but just not "clean". wxGlide seems to force a grid
                              layout and there's no events or integration with the IDE. Next, what
                              does wxWindows look like on Windows XP? Like 95/NT? A good rule of
                              UI is to emulate the UI perfectly, or be completely different.
                              Actually, that's a design rule in general. I'm being very picky, yes.

                              Ok, revised musts: :)

                              - Integration of IDE and UI designer
                              - Easily distributable
                              - Looks decently native on Windows

                              If borland added garbage collection to C++ builder I'd buy it.
                              If Dylan added a good UI designer, I'd buy it.
                              I'm going to give Dolphin Smalltalk XP a trial run...

                              Thanks for the feedback,
                              -- Mike

                              > > It's time to write some real apps. Just want to
                              > > pick peoples brains
                              > > on what may be the best package for developing on
                              > > Windows. Maybe a
                              > > bit off topic, but maybe not.
                              > >
                              > > It must have:
                              > >
                              > > - Garbage collection
                              > yes
                              > > - Access to win32 APIs
                              > win32all
                              > > - Access to odbc/database
                              > win32all
                              > > - A mature UI editor
                              > wxglade, boa constructor
                              > > - Interactive debugging
                              > just type 'python'
                              > > - OpenGL / 3D support
                              > pyopengl
                              > > - A reasonable price
                              > free
                              > >
                              > > Target applications include OS Utilities,
                              > > Information Management,
                              > > Small Games & Simulations, Screen Savers.
                              > >
                              > > The following are a few packages that I know of and
                              > > have at least
                              > > tried their demo versions:
                              > >
                              > > Dylan + Core + GUI + Win32 + Database + Network -
                              > > $250
                              > > + Awesome language
                              > > - Does Dylan have a 'real' UI designer?
                              > Python does
                              > > - Nickel and dimed with libraries
                              > Python has tons of libraries
                              > > - Dylan community??
                              > Python has a very quickly growing community
                              > >
                              > > Dolphin Smalltalk Standard XP 5.0 - $180
                              > > + Good UI designer
                              > > + ODBC / TCP/IP / CDO / XML
                              > > - Must learn the "image" way
                              > No images with Python
                              > > - Site last updated June 28, 2003?
                              > 2.3.3 finalized December 19 2004, but CVS work on 2.4
                              > very active
                              > > - OpenGL / 3D API?
                              > Python has one
                              > >
                              > > Borland C++Builder
                              > > + Great UI designer
                              > > + Many C++ libraries
                              > > - No garbage collection
                              > > - C++ (too low level)
                              > Python fixes these language problems
                              > >
                              > > Sun Java
                              > > + Good set of libraries
                              > > - Calling win32 API?
                              > Python has win32 and ctypes, which can, together,
                              > access just about all of the win32 api
                              > >
                              > > Microsoft C#
                              > > - Visual Studio, bleh!
                              > PyCrust
                              > >
                              > > ...
                              > >
                              > > Thanks in advance!
                              > > Mike
                              >
                              > __________________________________
                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
                              > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
                            • J. Stephen Riley Silber
                              ... In the immortal words of Cartman, Touche, teacher, touche. In the defense of perl (I don t know why I m about to say this...), perl modules DO allow you
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 3, 2004
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                                --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@y...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Perl?? I forgot the add "Easy to manage and update source" :)
                                >

                                In the immortal words of Cartman, "Touche, teacher, touche."

                                In the defense of perl (I don't know why I'm about to say this...),
                                perl modules DO allow you to do nice things organizationally,
                                and "nicely" written perl (that is, perl that looks like C with more
                                punctuation thrown in) isn't so bad to learn how to read. And Perl-
                                Tk code looks pretty reasonable when it's all written out.

                                On the other hand, point taken--it's perl. :)

                                Steve
                              • J. Stephen Riley Silber
                                ... Eeek! I loathe the language from a syntactic point of view, and don t think much of its creator, either. But I think Daniel has a good point here! It s
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 3, 2004
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                                  --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ehrenberg
                                  <littledanehren@y...> wrote:
                                  > I understand that just about everyone who subscribes
                                  > to this list has responded with their favorite
                                  > language (second to their langsmith one, of course),
                                  > but I think Python might be the best for this.
                                  >

                                  Eeek! I loathe the language from a syntactic point of view, and
                                  don't think much of its creator, either. But I think Daniel has a
                                  good point here! It's damn near as rich in terms of support libs as
                                  Perl, and without all the extra punctuation----er, I mean, with
                                  better code readability. :)

                                  Good call, Daniel.
                                • J. Stephen Riley Silber
                                  ... You re talking Borland and MS here. ActiveState s stuff meets this requirement in a pinch. ... The modern Tk libs all host native Win32 widgets. Swing
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 3, 2004
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                                    --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ehrenberg
                                    > <littledanehren@y...> wrote:

                                    > - Integration of IDE and UI designer

                                    You're talking Borland and MS here. ActiveState's stuff meets this
                                    requirement in a pinch.

                                    > - Looks decently native on Windows

                                    The modern Tk libs all host native Win32 widgets. Swing fakes it
                                    well enough. What about Qt? Don't they have some kind of scripting
                                    language interface now?

                                    > If borland added garbage collection to C++ builder I'd buy it.

                                    Can't you add a third party GC lib?

                                    > If Dylan added a good UI designer, I'd buy it.
                                    > I'm going to give Dolphin Smalltalk XP a trial run...

                                    I assume you've already looked at Squeak then?
                                  • Steve Dekorte
                                    By Guido van Rossum, creator of Python Today 7pm-9pm Cisco Systems, Building 9 - Vineyards Conference Center 260 East Tasman Drive San Jose, CA
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 3, 2004
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                                      By Guido van Rossum, creator of Python
                                      Today 7pm-9pm
                                      Cisco Systems, Building 9 - Vineyards Conference Center
                                      260 East Tasman Drive
                                      San Jose, CA

                                      http://lists.svlug.org/archives/svlug-announce/2004-March.txt

                                      -- Steve
                                    • Mike Austin
                                      ... scripting ... Yes, I looked at squeak, but it s just too much of a change to be productive for me. Plus, when I really started to think about it, I needed
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 3, 2004
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                                        --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, "J. Stephen Riley Silber"
                                        <jsrs701@y...> wrote:
                                        > --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Austin" <mike_ekim@y...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ehrenberg
                                        > > <littledanehren@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > - Integration of IDE and UI designer
                                        >
                                        > You're talking Borland and MS here. ActiveState's stuff meets this
                                        > requirement in a pinch.
                                        >
                                        > > - Looks decently native on Windows
                                        >
                                        > The modern Tk libs all host native Win32 widgets. Swing fakes it
                                        > well enough. What about Qt? Don't they have some kind of
                                        scripting
                                        > language interface now?
                                        >
                                        > > If borland added garbage collection to C++ builder I'd buy it.
                                        >
                                        > Can't you add a third party GC lib?
                                        >
                                        > > If Dylan added a good UI designer, I'd buy it.
                                        > > I'm going to give Dolphin Smalltalk XP a trial run...
                                        >
                                        > I assume you've already looked at Squeak then?

                                        Yes, I looked at squeak, but it's just too much of a change to be
                                        productive for me. Plus, when I really started to think about it, I
                                        needed access to Windows low level stuff: system messages, window
                                        id's, AppBars, NotifyIcons, all the un-application stuff.

                                        So far, Borland's C#Builder has been making me productive -- aside
                                        from having to declare all the lower level win32 functions such as:

                                        [DllImport("user32.dll")]
                                        public static extern bool SetWindowPos(IntPtr hWnd, IntPtr hWndAfter,
                                        int left, int top, int width, int height, uint uFlags);

                                        If I can find source with all these apis already declared it would be
                                        awesome. I said I would never turn to the dark side, err, C#, but it
                                        is fairly well thought out for a static language. :)

                                        I'm still intent on creating my own language of course, but for
                                        coding for a living on Windows, C# seems to be the less painfull.

                                        -- Mike
                                      • Daniel Ehrenberg
                                        ... Squeak implements its own GUI widgets; it s not suitable for any real production application. Daniel Ehrenberg __________________________________ Do you
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 3, 2004
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                                          > I assume you've already looked at Squeak then?

                                          Squeak implements its own GUI widgets; it's not
                                          suitable for any real production application.

                                          Daniel Ehrenberg

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                                        • Mike Austin
                                          ... I wouldn t go that far, as I ve seen images of applications that were written in Squeak. But I m sure it wasn t a piece of cake unless you know it well.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 3, 2004
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                                            --- In langsmiths@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ehrenberg
                                            <littledanehren@y...> wrote:
                                            > > I assume you've already looked at Squeak then?
                                            >
                                            > Squeak implements its own GUI widgets; it's not
                                            > suitable for any real production application.
                                            >
                                            > Daniel Ehrenberg

                                            I wouldn't go that far, as I've seen images of applications that were
                                            written in Squeak. But I'm sure it wasn't a piece of cake unless you
                                            know it well. Applications that don't adhere to the basic UI
                                            guidelines are probably more applicable to languages such as Squeak.
                                            If squeak was inteneded to be small and simple though, it has lost
                                            it's direction.

                                            -- Mike
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