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Re: Col400 vs ES-P vs IV-P vs PropJet

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  • dredward3
    Excellent discussion, thanks so much for everyone s input. Peter, thank you especially for that thorough and to the point explanation. Great information and
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 13, 2013
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      Excellent discussion, thanks so much for everyone's input. Peter, thank you especially for that thorough and to the point explanation. Great information and extremely helpful.

      I'd say I'm leaning towards the 'ultimate' IV-P which it sounds like a few of you have. An ES-P is also tempting, but like most here there's an ultimate reason for our decision and SPEED is high on the list. Now to find that well built and appropriately priced airframe, and get the work done to soften those harsh edges and make it current....

      Happy Sunday everyone.

      Edward

      --- In lancair@yahoogroups.com, Alex Mochkovsky wrote:
      >
      > Dear friends,
      >
      > Nothing else to say!
      > During my first flights on my L IV 12 years ago, we climbed to 12000 ft
      > to test the stall.
      >
      > Alex Mochkovsky
      > LV-X268
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > El 12-Jan-13 4:01 PM, Glenn Long escribió:
      > > Great topic,
      > >
      > > My fixed gear Legacy stalls at about 62 knots. The the stall and recovery
      > > are very docile, and not unlike most Cessna's or Pipers most folks
      > > are accustomed to. To me it's much easier to fly than any Cessna or Piper
      > > I've been in.
      > >
      > > The IV and other Lancairs have killed many an unwary pilot. The very
      > > important thing to remember about any Lancair, is that you fly it by the
      > > numbers. They are not forgiving and will punish you as a result.
      > >
      > > That doesn't mean they don't give you hints or remind you not to respect
      > > them. There is plenty of seat of the pants feeling and you'll know when
      > > it's ready to fly and when it's ready to stall. The base turn thing kills a
      > > bunch of folks every year. Since there is no witness, there is little other
      > > than speculation about handling down low. If I had to guess most of those
      > > pilots were very attentive to their approach but not so much to airspeed.
      > >
      > > During my first flight, the airspeed indicator did not work. the test pilot
      > > still flew it. Crazy? - not really. as above it gave every indication of
      > > when it was ready to fly and when it didn't want to. Naturally we fixed
      > > that issue for subsequent flights.
      > >
      > > The other gotcha is that too many of these fast flyers turn beyond the
      > > recommended max 30 degree turn on base and final. Put that IV up at 45
      > > degrees without the required airspeed and you've got a bad day ahead.
      > >
      > > All that said, I wouldn't fly any other machine for my weekly fix.
      > >
      > > Glenn
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 1:28 PM, C Adams wrote:
      > >
      > >> **
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Wow. That is pretty grim with regard to 4 stall characteristics. I have
      > >> never heard that before. Is this both power on and power off?
      > >> My 360 stalls at around 70 kts but I am not afraid to stall it and
      > >> recover. Perhaps the Legacy is the same or better.
      > >>
      > >> Cheers,
      > >>
      > >> Cory
      > >>
      > >> ________________________________
      > >> From: peter williams Peterpaw@...>
      > >> To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
      > >> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:26 AM
      > >> Subject: [Lancair] Re: Col400 vs ES-P vs IV-P vs PropJet
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> HI THERE
      > >>
      > >> I find it odd that everyone avoids the one truth about the Lancair 4 or
      > >> 4P; it is not the stall speed which is likely to be in the 70's. say 72 to
      > >> 76 knots. that is not the big issue. the Lancair wing was designed for
      > >> speed. very thin and a "critical" airfoil.
      > >>
      > >> THE BIG ISSUE IS THE STALL CHARACTERISTICS.
      > >>
      > >> My 4P is typical of many Lancair 4 airplanes. the airplane rotates 100-110
      > >> degrees after the stall.
      > >> thats right, the wing tip is pointing staight down, past vertical slightly
      > >> inverted.
      > >>
      > >> NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THIS.
      > >>
      > >> if you are going to get insurance, a LOBO (or one other company)
      > >> instructor course is required to get insurance. most of the instructors
      > >> WILL NOT stall the airplane, WILL NOT. they will tell you that you are
      > >> flying airplane number one. and no one knows how it will stall.
      > >>
      > >> by the by, expect hull insurance to cost about $9,000 for your first year
      > >> and say $4,000 for liability. i have 3,600 hours of which 2,600 is twin
      > >> time and that is what i pay.
      > >>
      > >> and, these Lancairs are not for low time pilots.
      > >>
      > >> and personally, i would not own a 4P turboprop. the big gain for those
      > >> airplanes is climb speed. yes, you gain some 20-30 knots in cruise. but at
      > >> 33-36gal per hour you have no real range.
      > >>
      > >> my airplane does 260 knots at 17,500 with an OAT of 32 degrees two persons
      > >> & baggage) and 250 knots at an OAT of 52 degrees. (four persons & baggage)
      > >> both at 18 GPH.
      > >>
      > >> then there are the center of gravity issues. for example the "fast build"
      > >> rudder will likely weigh 42-44 pounds. a "slow build is likely to weigh 29
      > >> pounds and a carbon fiber can go as low as 19 pounds. you are talking about
      > >> more than one inch of CG movement with these weights. if you carry two
      > >> people and baggage. no problem. four plus baggage, then that matters.
      > >>
      > >> the gross weights of Lancair 4 & 4P range from 3200 pounds to 4600 pounds.
      > >> the latter weight is a 4P turbine with 166 gallons of fuel.
      > >>
      > >> if the plane has extended fuel in the wings (110 gallons) you can carry 4
      > >> people and full fuel with a gross weight of about 3850 pounds.if the extra
      > >> fuel is a tank in the baggage area, then, you are a two person airplane.
      > >>
      > >> WHAT ARE THE FIXES/ CHOICES
      > >>
      > >> i have vortex generators on my plane; they lowered the stall speed by 7-8
      > >> knots. but, we even tried VG's at 8% of cord and .it made no difference is
      > >> the post stall rotation to past vertical.
      > >>
      > >> For the after stall characteristics, there seems to be a solution although
      > >> there only a couple of planes flying so far.
      > >> that is the Fibercraft wingtip conversion. it tames the after stall issues
      > >> and promises to reduce the post stall rotation to 30 degrees or less. (this
      > >> conversion by Fibercraft was designed by a member of the Lancair team that
      > >> tamed the Lancair 4 to create what became the certified Lancair}
      > >>
      > >> you could ask Ron who has just posted here as he has this conversion on
      > >> his 4P.
      > >>
      > >> VALUE OF "STEAM GAGE" LANCAIRS
      > >>
      > >> as to value, the realistic prices keep dropping. I know of two 4P that
      > >> sold, in 2012, at $160,000 and $175,000. both had Garmin 530's. so if those
      > >> are the realistic prices for a 4P. you would not want to pay that much for
      > >> a straight Lancair 4.
      > >>
      > >> I expect that the value of my 4P will decline by maybe as much as $30,000
      > >> over the next year or so. that is how it is. i am seduced by the speed. my
      > >> radio man refers to the plane as a "lawn dart" and i like calling it "the
      > >> green bullet"
      > >>
      > >> and personally, i would avoid the Turboprop airplanes; cost, fuel burn &
      > >> an airframe not designed for all that power.
      > >>
      > >> peter williams
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Andres Katz
      Mine is for sale it fits all your requirements 18ak IV-P Sent from my iPad ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 13, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Mine is for sale it fits all your requirements
        18ak IV-P

        Sent from my iPad

        On Jan 13, 2013, at 7:19 AM, "dredward3" <dredward.pearson@...> wrote:

        > Excellent discussion, thanks so much for everyone's input. Peter, thank you especially for that thorough and to the point explanation. Great information and extremely helpful.
        >
        > I'd say I'm leaning towards the 'ultimate' IV-P which it sounds like a few of you have. An ES-P is also tempting, but like most here there's an ultimate reason for our decision and SPEED is high on the list. Now to find that well built and appropriately priced airframe, and get the work done to soften those harsh edges and make it current....
        >
        > Happy Sunday everyone.
        >
        > Edward
        >
        > --- In lancair@yahoogroups.com, Alex Mochkovsky wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear friends,
        > >
        > > Nothing else to say!
        > > During my first flights on my L IV 12 years ago, we climbed to 12000 ft
        > > to test the stall.
        > >
        > > Alex Mochkovsky
        > > LV-X268
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > El 12-Jan-13 4:01 PM, Glenn Long escribió:
        > > > Great topic,
        > > >
        > > > My fixed gear Legacy stalls at about 62 knots. The the stall and recovery
        > > > are very docile, and not unlike most Cessna's or Pipers most folks
        > > > are accustomed to. To me it's much easier to fly than any Cessna or Piper
        > > > I've been in.
        > > >
        > > > The IV and other Lancairs have killed many an unwary pilot. The very
        > > > important thing to remember about any Lancair, is that you fly it by the
        > > > numbers. They are not forgiving and will punish you as a result.
        > > >
        > > > That doesn't mean they don't give you hints or remind you not to respect
        > > > them. There is plenty of seat of the pants feeling and you'll know when
        > > > it's ready to fly and when it's ready to stall. The base turn thing kills a
        > > > bunch of folks every year. Since there is no witness, there is little other
        > > > than speculation about handling down low. If I had to guess most of those
        > > > pilots were very attentive to their approach but not so much to airspeed.
        > > >
        > > > During my first flight, the airspeed indicator did not work. the test pilot
        > > > still flew it. Crazy? - not really. as above it gave every indication of
        > > > when it was ready to fly and when it didn't want to. Naturally we fixed
        > > > that issue for subsequent flights.
        > > >
        > > > The other gotcha is that too many of these fast flyers turn beyond the
        > > > recommended max 30 degree turn on base and final. Put that IV up at 45
        > > > degrees without the required airspeed and you've got a bad day ahead.
        > > >
        > > > All that said, I wouldn't fly any other machine for my weekly fix.
        > > >
        > > > Glenn
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 1:28 PM, C Adams wrote:
        > > >
        > > >> **
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> Wow. That is pretty grim with regard to 4 stall characteristics. I have
        > > >> never heard that before. Is this both power on and power off?
        > > >> My 360 stalls at around 70 kts but I am not afraid to stall it and
        > > >> recover. Perhaps the Legacy is the same or better.
        > > >>
        > > >> Cheers,
        > > >>
        > > >> Cory
        > > >>
        > > >> ________________________________
        > > >> From: peter williams Peterpaw@...>
        > > >> To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
        > > >> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:26 AM
        > > >> Subject: [Lancair] Re: Col400 vs ES-P vs IV-P vs PropJet
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> HI THERE
        > > >>
        > > >> I find it odd that everyone avoids the one truth about the Lancair 4 or
        > > >> 4P; it is not the stall speed which is likely to be in the 70's. say 72 to
        > > >> 76 knots. that is not the big issue. the Lancair wing was designed for
        > > >> speed. very thin and a "critical" airfoil.
        > > >>
        > > >> THE BIG ISSUE IS THE STALL CHARACTERISTICS.
        > > >>
        > > >> My 4P is typical of many Lancair 4 airplanes. the airplane rotates 100-110
        > > >> degrees after the stall.
        > > >> thats right, the wing tip is pointing staight down, past vertical slightly
        > > >> inverted.
        > > >>
        > > >> NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THIS.
        > > >>
        > > >> if you are going to get insurance, a LOBO (or one other company)
        > > >> instructor course is required to get insurance. most of the instructors
        > > >> WILL NOT stall the airplane, WILL NOT. they will tell you that you are
        > > >> flying airplane number one. and no one knows how it will stall.
        > > >>
        > > >> by the by, expect hull insurance to cost about $9,000 for your first year
        > > >> and say $4,000 for liability. i have 3,600 hours of which 2,600 is twin
        > > >> time and that is what i pay.
        > > >>
        > > >> and, these Lancairs are not for low time pilots.
        > > >>
        > > >> and personally, i would not own a 4P turboprop. the big gain for those
        > > >> airplanes is climb speed. yes, you gain some 20-30 knots in cruise. but at
        > > >> 33-36gal per hour you have no real range.
        > > >>
        > > >> my airplane does 260 knots at 17,500 with an OAT of 32 degrees two persons
        > > >> & baggage) and 250 knots at an OAT of 52 degrees. (four persons & baggage)
        > > >> both at 18 GPH.
        > > >>
        > > >> then there are the center of gravity issues. for example the "fast build"
        > > >> rudder will likely weigh 42-44 pounds. a "slow build is likely to weigh 29
        > > >> pounds and a carbon fiber can go as low as 19 pounds. you are talking about
        > > >> more than one inch of CG movement with these weights. if you carry two
        > > >> people and baggage. no problem. four plus baggage, then that matters.
        > > >>
        > > >> the gross weights of Lancair 4 & 4P range from 3200 pounds to 4600 pounds.
        > > >> the latter weight is a 4P turbine with 166 gallons of fuel.
        > > >>
        > > >> if the plane has extended fuel in the wings (110 gallons) you can carry 4
        > > >> people and full fuel with a gross weight of about 3850 pounds.if the extra
        > > >> fuel is a tank in the baggage area, then, you are a two person airplane.
        > > >>
        > > >> WHAT ARE THE FIXES/ CHOICES
        > > >>
        > > >> i have vortex generators on my plane; they lowered the stall speed by 7-8
        > > >> knots. but, we even tried VG's at 8% of cord and .it made no difference is
        > > >> the post stall rotation to past vertical.
        > > >>
        > > >> For the after stall characteristics, there seems to be a solution although
        > > >> there only a couple of planes flying so far.
        > > >> that is the Fibercraft wingtip conversion. it tames the after stall issues
        > > >> and promises to reduce the post stall rotation to 30 degrees or less. (this
        > > >> conversion by Fibercraft was designed by a member of the Lancair team that
        > > >> tamed the Lancair 4 to create what became the certified Lancair}
        > > >>
        > > >> you could ask Ron who has just posted here as he has this conversion on
        > > >> his 4P.
        > > >>
        > > >> VALUE OF "STEAM GAGE" LANCAIRS
        > > >>
        > > >> as to value, the realistic prices keep dropping. I know of two 4P that
        > > >> sold, in 2012, at $160,000 and $175,000. both had Garmin 530's. so if those
        > > >> are the realistic prices for a 4P. you would not want to pay that much for
        > > >> a straight Lancair 4.
        > > >>
        > > >> I expect that the value of my 4P will decline by maybe as much as $30,000
        > > >> over the next year or so. that is how it is. i am seduced by the speed. my
        > > >> radio man refers to the plane as a "lawn dart" and i like calling it "the
        > > >> green bullet"
        > > >>
        > > >> and personally, i would avoid the Turboprop airplanes; cost, fuel burn &
        > > >> an airframe not designed for all that power.
        > > >>
        > > >> peter williams
        > > >>
        > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >>
        > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >


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