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Re: Hydrualic Pump

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  • b
    What is your time worth, and are you absolutely certain that your existing pump was built to the current specs? With all the pump problems people have had, it
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 1, 2011
      What is your time worth, and are you absolutely certain that your existing pump was built to the current specs?

      With all the pump problems people have had, it may be money well spent.

      Bill

      --- In lancair@yahoogroups.com, Sam Christen <samcchristen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Everyone,
      >
      > I'm back yet again, still working on this hydraulic issue. I finally
      > isolated the problem to the hydraulic power pack. I actually took it to a
      > hydraulic shop, where the guys did an overhaul on it. However, even after
      > putting in the rebuild kit, the pump is still loosing pressure on the high
      > side. They have been trying various thins for the last week, and they are
      > out of ideas. It seems my pump is somehow haunted. Sometimes they can get it
      > to hold pressure, but sometimes it doesnt. So now I am looking to buy a new
      > power pack. Does anyone have any ideas as to whether I should just get the
      > $1300 unit from Lancair? Or is there another, maybe cheaper place to buy a
      > pump that will drive the gear system?
      >
      > I know the part number is proprietary to lancair, or Kit Components Inc. So
      > I know I cant get the exact same pump without going through them. Since its
      > proprietary they also wont tell me what the difference is between the $1300
      > lancair pump, and the $600 pump that has essentially the same specs as the
      > one in the lancair as far as I can tell.
      >
      > Any insight into what you guys would suggest doing would be greatly
      > appreciated. I dont want to skimp out, if there is a good reason to go with
      > the exact unit sold by lancair, but I also dont want to pay twice as much
      > for a new pump as i should just because they made a deal with parker.
      >
      > Thanks!
      >
      > Sam
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Chris Zavatson
      Sam, What is the proprietary part?  The part number describes the internal configuration.  One must be aware off is spool orientation relative to high and
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 1, 2011
        Sam,
        What is the proprietary part?  The part number describes the internal configuration.  One must be aware off is spool orientation relative to high and low sides.  Parker's default assumption is that the working stroke is during extension, while ours is retraction.
         
        If your pump is making but not holding pressure, you are down to:
        -bad poppet valve
        -bad poppet valve seat
        -check valve body o-ring or its seats on the check valve body or the pump housing
        Look for a cut O-ring or a scratch in the sealing surfaces.
         
        Chris Zavatson
        N91CZ
        360std
        www.N91CZ.net

        From: Sam Christen <samcchristen@...>
        To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:36 PM
        Subject: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump


         
        Hey Everyone,

        I'm back yet again, still working on this hydraulic issue. I finally
        isolated the problem to the hydraulic power pack. I actually took it to a
        hydraulic shop, where the guys did an overhaul on it. However, even after
        putting in the rebuild kit, the pump is still loosing pressure on the high
        side. They have been trying various thins for the last week, and they are
        out of ideas. It seems my pump is somehow haunted. Sometimes they can get it
        to hold pressure, but sometimes it doesnt. So now I am looking to buy a new
        power pack. Does anyone have any ideas as to whether I should just get the
        $1300 unit from Lancair? Or is there another, maybe cheaper place to buy a
        pump that will drive the gear system?

        I know the part number is proprietary to lancair, or Kit Components Inc. So
        I know I cant get the exact same pump without going through them. Since its
        proprietary they also wont tell me what the difference is between the $1300
        lancair pump, and the $600 pump that has essentially the same specs as the
        one in the lancair as far as I can tell.

        Any insight into what you guys would suggest doing would be greatly
        appreciated. I dont want to skimp out, if there is a good reason to go with
        the exact unit sold by lancair, but I also dont want to pay twice as much
        for a new pump as i should just because they made a deal with parker.

        Thanks!

        Sam

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sam Christen
        Chris, The part number I have on my plane is as follows: 638082-B 108AM-32-BN-1VM The part numbers have apparently changed. Now Lancair Sells a
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 1, 2011
          Chris,



          The part number I have on my plane is as follows:



          638082-B

          108AM-32-BN-1VM



          The part numbers have apparently changed. Now Lancair Sells a 108AMS-32-CZZ-3V-14-08-Y.



          The CZZ code means its proprietary to Lancair and pertains to the part of the code that deals with circuit type.

          I could get a 108AMS-32-LB-3V-14-08 for somewhere on the order of $600-700.

          (I attached a document that decodes the part numbers)

          Do u think its worth the savings to try and buy a similar pump, or would you just buy the lancair version for $1350.



          I’m very torn on this one. I don’t really wanna go around kit components, but if the pump is really just twice as expensive as it should be, I’d feel dumb for just spending the money.





          Thanks for the help…



          Best,



          Sam







          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



          Samuel C Christen, CFI-I, MEI

          Real Estate Consulting

          Flight Instruction

          Professional Pilot Services

          Cell: (732) 910-5039

          Email: samcchristen@...



          From: lancair@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lancair@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Zavatson
          Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 8:34 AM
          To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump





          Sam,
          What is the proprietary part? The part number describes the internal configuration. One must be aware off is spool orientation relative to high and low sides. Parker's default assumption is that the working stroke is during extension, while ours is retraction.

          If your pump is making but not holding pressure, you are down to:
          -bad poppet valve
          -bad poppet valve seat
          -check valve body o-ring or its seats on the check valve body or the pump housing
          Look for a cut O-ring or a scratch in the sealing surfaces.

          Chris Zavatson
          N91CZ
          360std
          www.N91CZ.net

          From: Sam Christen <samcchristen@... <mailto:samcchristen%40gmail.com> >
          To: lancair@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lancair%40yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:36 PM
          Subject: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump


          Hey Everyone,

          I'm back yet again, still working on this hydraulic issue. I finally
          isolated the problem to the hydraulic power pack. I actually took it to a
          hydraulic shop, where the guys did an overhaul on it. However, even after
          putting in the rebuild kit, the pump is still loosing pressure on the high
          side. They have been trying various thins for the last week, and they are
          out of ideas. It seems my pump is somehow haunted. Sometimes they can get it
          to hold pressure, but sometimes it doesnt. So now I am looking to buy a new
          power pack. Does anyone have any ideas as to whether I should just get the
          $1300 unit from Lancair? Or is there another, maybe cheaper place to buy a
          pump that will drive the gear system?

          I know the part number is proprietary to lancair, or Kit Components Inc. So
          I know I cant get the exact same pump without going through them. Since its
          proprietary they also wont tell me what the difference is between the $1300
          lancair pump, and the $600 pump that has essentially the same specs as the
          one in the lancair as far as I can tell.

          Any insight into what you guys would suggest doing would be greatly
          appreciated. I dont want to skimp out, if there is a good reason to go with
          the exact unit sold by lancair, but I also dont want to pay twice as much
          for a new pump as i should just because they made a deal with parker.

          Thanks!

          Sam

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris Zavatson
          Sam, I just noticed that your current part number shows a .32cu/rev pump.  My pumps are both 108AM19-CLB-3VT.  It would take some older literature to
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 1, 2011
            Sam,
            I just noticed that your current part number shows a .32cu/rev pump.  My pumps are both 108AM19-CLB-3VT.  It would take some older literature to decode your part number.  The 32 is worrisome, but it would take an older parts list to know for sure.
            http://oemys-performance.com/media/autopark%20pump%20108a.pdf
            Note the two different spools in this exploded view.  My parts list (hardcopy) shows spool 7A to be used with the .32 pump.  All others use 7B with an O-ring.
            Chris

            From: Sam Christen <samcchristen@...>
            To: 'Chris Zavatson' <chris_zavatson@...>; lancair@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:42 PM
            Subject: RE: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump


             
            Chris,

            The part number I have on my plane is as follows:

            638082-B

            108AM-32-BN-1VM

            The part numbers have apparently changed. Now Lancair Sells a 108AMS-32-CZZ-3V-14-08-Y.

            The CZZ code means its proprietary to Lancair and pertains to the part of the code that deals with circuit type.

            I could get a 108AMS-32-LB-3V-14-08 for somewhere on the order of $600-700.

            (I attached a document that decodes the part numbers)

            Do u think its worth the savings to try and buy a similar pump, or would you just buy the lancair version for $1350.

            I’m very torn on this one. I don’t really wanna go around kit components, but if the pump is really just twice as expensive as it should be, I’d feel dumb for just spending the money.

            Thanks for the help…

            Best,

            Sam

            ----------------------------------------------------------

            Samuel C Christen, CFI-I, MEI

            Real Estate Consulting

            Flight Instruction

            Professional Pilot Services

            Cell: (732) 910-5039

            Email: samcchristen@...

            From: lancair@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lancair@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Zavatson
            Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 8:34 AM
            To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump

            Sam,
            What is the proprietary part? The part number describes the internal configuration. One must be aware off is spool orientation relative to high and low sides. Parker's default assumption is that the working stroke is during extension, while ours is retraction.

            If your pump is making but not holding pressure, you are down to:
            -bad poppet valve
            -bad poppet valve seat
            -check valve body o-ring or its seats on the check valve body or the pump housing
            Look for a cut O-ring or a scratch in the sealing surfaces.

            Chris Zavatson
            N91CZ
            360std
            www.N91CZ.net

            From: Sam Christen <samcchristen@... <mailto:samcchristen%40gmail.com> >
            To: lancair@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lancair%40yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:36 PM
            Subject: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump

            Hey Everyone,

            I'm back yet again, still working on this hydraulic issue. I finally
            isolated the problem to the hydraulic power pack. I actually took it to a
            hydraulic shop, where the guys did an overhaul on it. However, even after
            putting in the rebuild kit, the pump is still loosing pressure on the high
            side. They have been trying various thins for the last week, and they are
            out of ideas. It seems my pump is somehow haunted. Sometimes they can get it
            to hold pressure, but sometimes it doesnt. So now I am looking to buy a new
            power pack. Does anyone have any ideas as to whether I should just get the
            $1300 unit from Lancair? Or is there another, maybe cheaper place to buy a
            pump that will drive the gear system?

            I know the part number is proprietary to lancair, or Kit Components Inc. So
            I know I cant get the exact same pump without going through them. Since its
            proprietary they also wont tell me what the difference is between the $1300
            lancair pump, and the $600 pump that has essentially the same specs as the
            one in the lancair as far as I can tell.

            Any insight into what you guys would suggest doing would be greatly
            appreciated. I dont want to skimp out, if there is a good reason to go with
            the exact unit sold by lancair, but I also dont want to pay twice as much
            for a new pump as i should just because they made a deal with parker.

            Thanks!

            Sam

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sam Christen
            Chris, That s odd that they would put in a different spool for the higher flow rate pump. It doesn t really make sense as to why. How long have u had your
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 2, 2011
              Chris,

              That's odd that they would put in a different spool for the higher flow rate pump. It doesn't really make sense as to why. How long have u had your pumps, and did u purchase them from lancair originally? Also, what types of problems do you think the new higher flow rate pump would cause on my bird? I know you mentioned the back pressure lockup, but that doesn't really make sense to me either.

              Thanks,

              Sam



              Sent from my iPad

              On Jun 2, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson@...> wrote:

              > Sam,
              > I just noticed that your current part number shows a .32cu/rev pump. My pumps are both 108AM19-CLB-3VT. It would take some older literature to decode your part number. The 32 is worrisome, but it would take an older parts list to know for sure.
              > http://oemys-performance.com/media/autopark%20pump%20108a.pdf
              > Note the two different spools in this exploded view. My parts list (hardcopy) shows spool 7A to be used with the .32 pump. All others use 7B with an O-ring.
              > Chris
              >
              >
              > From: Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson@...>
              > To: Sam Christen <samcchristen@...>
              > Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 9:47 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump
              >
              > Sam,
              > I would avoid the .32 cu/rev pump at all costs. This change was made for the Legacy to decrease the retraction time. All of my Parker data shows that this spool does not have an O-ring which will cause problems for the 320/360. It will promote the very retraction lock-up problem you have now. The Legacy system is different in a number of ways. They may have also made other detrimental changes like return springs for the spool. Lancair has made other changes to hardware that was ended up not being backward compatible to the 320/360. Their knowledge of the old two seaters has been eroding for a number of years now.
              > Chris
              >
              > From: Sam Christen <samcchristen@...>
              > To: 'Chris Zavatson' <chris_zavatson@...>; lancair@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:42 PM
              > Subject: RE: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump
              >
              > Chris,
              >
              > The part number I have on my plane is as follows:
              >
              > 638082-B
              > 108AM-32-BN-1VM
              >
              > The part numbers have apparently changed. Now Lancair Sells a 108AMS-32-CZZ-3V-14-08-Y.
              >
              > The CZZ code means its proprietary to Lancair and pertains to the part of the code that deals with circuit type.
              > I could get a 108AMS-32-LB-3V-14-08 for somewhere on the order of $600-700.
              > (I attached a document that decodes the part numbers)
              > Do u think its worth the savings to try and buy a similar pump, or would you just buy the lancair version for $1350.
              >
              > I’m very torn on this one. I don’t really wanna go around kit components, but if the pump is really just twice as expensive as it should be, I’d feel dumb for just spending the money.
              >
              >
              > Thanks for the help…
              >
              > Best,
              >
              > Sam
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > Samuel C Christen, CFI-I, MEI
              > Real Estate Consulting
              > Flight Instruction
              > Professional Pilot Services
              > Cell: (732) 910-5039
              > Email: samcchristen@...
              >
              > From: lancair@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lancair@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Zavatson
              > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 8:34 AM
              > To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump
              >
              >
              > Sam,
              > What is the proprietary part? The part number describes the internal configuration. One must be aware off is spool orientation relative to high and low sides. Parker's default assumption is that the working stroke is during extension, while ours is retraction.
              >
              > If your pump is making but not holding pressure, you are down to:
              > -bad poppet valve
              > -bad poppet valve seat
              > -check valve body o-ring or its seats on the check valve body or the pump housing
              > Look for a cut O-ring or a scratch in the sealing surfaces.
              >
              > Chris Zavatson
              > N91CZ
              > 360std
              > www.N91CZ.net
              >
              > From: Sam Christen <samcchristen@...>
              > To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:36 PM
              > Subject: [Lancair] Hydrualic Pump
              >
              >
              > Hey Everyone,
              >
              > I'm back yet again, still working on this hydraulic issue. I finally
              > isolated the problem to the hydraulic power pack. I actually took it to a
              > hydraulic shop, where the guys did an overhaul on it. However, even after
              > putting in the rebuild kit, the pump is still loosing pressure on the high
              > side. They have been trying various thins for the last week, and they are
              > out of ideas. It seems my pump is somehow haunted. Sometimes they can get it
              > to hold pressure, but sometimes it doesnt. So now I am looking to buy a new
              > power pack. Does anyone have any ideas as to whether I should just get the
              > $1300 unit from Lancair? Or is there another, maybe cheaper place to buy a
              > pump that will drive the gear system?
              >
              > I know the part number is proprietary to lancair, or Kit Components Inc. So
              > I know I cant get the exact same pump without going through them. Since its
              > proprietary they also wont tell me what the difference is between the $1300
              > lancair pump, and the $600 pump that has essentially the same specs as the
              > one in the lancair as far as I can tell.
              >
              > Any insight into what you guys would suggest doing would be greatly
              > appreciated. I dont want to skimp out, if there is a good reason to go with
              > the exact unit sold by lancair, but I also dont want to pay twice as much
              > for a new pump as i should just because they made a deal with parker.
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              > Sam
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Chris
              Sam, One pump came with the kit in late 95. The second one about two or three years later, also from Lancair, to be used on a test bench. They have both
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 3, 2011
                Sam,
                One pump came with the kit in late '95. The second one about two or three years later, also from Lancair, to be used on a test bench. They have both seen flight time and are identical and interchangeable. Set points on the bench need to be turned down a bit since the system is much stiffer and the pump pressure overshoot is much more pronounced. That is, time between power to the motor being cut and the shaft actually stopping results in a bigger pressure rise on the bench that it does in the plane.
                These aren't necessarily drawbacks, but...
                The higher flow pump will draw more current.
                The gear doors will slam shut at an even faster rate.
                There may be greater pressure over-shoot after pump shut down.

                The lock-up issue would occur if one had the no-o-ring spool and then had either an internal leak or the system experienced a large temperature rise. The non-active circuit would be sealed off as the spool would be free to slide back to center without an o-ring.
                See slide 21
                Http://www.n91cz.com/misc/LancairHydraulics-LML.pdf
                This was part of a seminar I did for LOBO last year.
                I did hear from a builder that installed the .32 cuin/rev gear set without changing the spool. I cannot think of any reason why the higher flow gears would need a different spool.
                Chris

                Sent from my iPad

                On Jun 2, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Sam Christen <samcchristen@...> wrote:

                > Chris,
                >
                > That's odd that they would put in a different spool for the higher flow rate pump. It doesn't really make sense as to why. How long have u had your pumps, and did u purchase them from lancair originally? Also, what types of problems do you think the new higher flow rate pump would cause on my bird? I know you mentioned the back pressure lockup, but that doesn't really make sense to me either.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Sam
                >
                >
                >
                > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > On Jun 2, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Sam,
                >> I just noticed that your current part number shows a .32cu/rev pump. My pumps are both 108AM19-CLB-3VT. It would take some older literature to decode your part number. The 32 is worrisome, but it would take an older parts list to know for sure.
                >> http://oemys-performance.com/media/autopark%20pump%20108a.pdf
                >> Note the two different spools in this exploded view. My parts list (hardcopy) shows spool 7A to be used with the .32 pump. All others use 7B with an O-ring.
                >> Chris
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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