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Re: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

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  • galaxyone@juno.com
    I have to concur with Terence. I sold my small tail 320 about two years ago due to the baggage weight limitation. Owned it for three years prior to that.
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 21, 2008
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      I have to concur with Terence. I sold my small tail 320 about two years ago due to the baggage weight limitation. Owned it for three years prior to that. During initial check out, with a CFI that claimed that he had experience in them, we did some stalls. I stalled with partial power and 15 degrees of flaps at 6,500', I lost 1,000 ' before recovery. The CFI said he would show me how it should be done, we were inverted twice, lost 4'000' and went through the cloud deck and recovered at 2,500'. I still liked the plane but you needed to treat it with respect. I now fly a Super ES, almost the same performance but at more than twice the fuel burn.
      Henry
      -- "terrence o'neill" <troneill@...> wrote:
      Cory,
      The though of flying me 235/320 at aft of the aft CG scares me... but that's just me.
      If you can find it, you might read the Mk II flight tests in the Kitplanes August 1993, by Chuck Berthe, a professioonal test pilot, in a 320 with modified IO360 and 3-blade MT... 220HP on the test stand. Also N360XK had the extended tips.
      A few quotes:
      "...gear down, flaps up, 2500rpm, 15-in. MP ... as we approached the stall angle of attack the required aft stick forces diminished, and at the stalll I released all back pressure. Instead of recovering the nose remained at high attitude. Positive forward pressure was required to lower the nose for stall recovery. The flaps were then lowered to 15 degrees and the stall was repeated. This time the nose continued to rise as the stick was released at the stall. Forward pressure on the stick resulted in a normal recovery. During both stalls I did not allow a full departure to occur... "
      Further in the article he says, regarding "... excessive pitch sensitivity. The 1.5 to 2-pound-per-G pitch force that I determined in flight is only about one-third the minimuim acceptable force required for a hot military fighter aircraft."
      And earlier, Berthe mentions the Aussie problems: "The first was pitch sensitivity. With the CG 1.5-inches FORWARD of the aft limit, the stick force per velocity gradient was too low (less than 1-pound per ten knots) and the aircraft exhibited divergent tendencies when trimmed to 75 knots indicated. The second was that when held in a full stall, the airplane rolled inverted and required some 1000-feet of altitude for a 2G recovery."
      Berthe noted (in 1993) that Niebauer was developing a new tail for the 320 that had 25 % more span, was considering an anit-servo tab for the elevator, and possibly moving the bob-weight forward of the center of rotation.
      Berthe's final comment was that he would love to have a Lancair 320... a fine machine.
      I'm not familiar with what Lancair did subsequently... but for my small-tailer, considering these evaluations for a CG 1.5-in forward of the aft CG, I don't think I would want to be flying slow-flight with a CG farther aft, even though aft CG reduces drag, because it also reduces the (stalled) pitch recovery moment. So, for the pitch sensitivity I've added anti-servo tabs to the elevator; and I'm trying another thing for boosting the pitch unstall moment. Also, adding a little ballast way up front looks promising. I'm sure many experienced 235 and 320 drivers could add some comments to Berthe's observations about pitch stability at high AOAs..
      Terrence O'Neill
      L235/320 N211AL
      99.9%


      :
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: C Adams
      To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:49 PM
      Subject: Re: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL


      The factory specs for CG are very cautious. I usually am outside of the aft CG limits by a good margin according to the last w/b done by Phoenix Composites (don't let these guys do a pre-buy inspection for you btw):

      Lancair 360 with Lyc IO 360 A1A w/ Lycon 10:1 pistons.

      me 205 lbs
      girl 125 lbs

      in the back:
      dog 15 lbs
      other baggage 80 lbs
      I even end up removing the rear access hatch and stuff snowboards and kiteboards through the baggage area to the rear of the fuse.

      full fuel 42 gallons (or so).

      I end up with the same of full forward trim and flaps at around 0 deg rather than reflexed to keep the nose down.

      My 360 will still climb pretty well (500 fpm + at 140 mph).

      There is nothing like the Lancair that you can wrap around a 4 cylinder for cruise performance and economy.

      I just flew back from FL using 55% power LOP at 6,500 to 9,500 burning an average of 8 GPH at 172 KTS indicated. If I fly with higher power and ROP I plan for 185 KTS.

      Cory

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: alfred_newman69 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 2:25:07 PM
      Subject: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

      Hi Hartly,

      235 cruise about 180+ mph true (about 160 KTAS). 320 about 190 KTAS

      true in cruise, better climb with the C/S prop and more HP.

      I did email you in person but never heard back, maybe caught in the

      spam filters but all that info was in there.

      Max Load I flew in the 235: Me (180lbs); one friend (220 lbs); full

      fuel (36 gal); 75 lbs baggage in the rear. Climb: Pathetic. Trim:

      had to keep 0 degrees of flaps for stability (as opposed to flaps

      reflexed 10 degrees), but otherwise ok. Stability: Less that what

      some would consider acceptable with full up flaps, but ok with

      "neutral" flaps. Very light pitch forces.

      This was "overloaded" - take 25lbs out of the back and nearly 100 out

      of the passenger seat (your other vs. my big buddy) and you would be fine.

      Cheers,

      Bill

      --- In lancair@yahoogroups .com, Hartley P <justhartleyp@ ...> wrote:

      >

      > Bill,

      >

      > You did not mention the payload of each model. I know that others

      have said that you can't carry much weight in a 200/235. I would need

      to carry two, and 50lbs in bags (with full fuel). Is that realistic

      for any of the Lancair two seat line?

      >

      > Seems though the speed has also had a 30 kt spread.

      >

      > I must say that I am enamored by the speed of the planes. They

      really seem to be very very efficient.

      >

      > -Hartley

      >

      >

      >

      > ----- Original Message ----

      > From: alfred_newman69 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>

      > To: lancair@yahoogroups .com

      > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:17:28 PM

      > Subject: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

      >

      > Hi Hartley,

      >

      > Yak 50 is nice. My friend, a former world champion aerobatics

      > contender, prefers the Sukhoi. His is for sale if you know a group

      > interested in buying - contact me per my previous email direct to you

      > if interested. If you didn't get that email, you missed the answers

      > to some of your questions here.

      >

      > There are only 3 airframes in the 2-seat Lancair line.

      >

      > The first was the 200/235, which was designed around those engines.

      > Beware - some 235s have a 320 or even a 360 shoehorned in. Fast

      > planes, but if you need the extra headroom / legroom it isn't there.

      > I would have been very happy with one of those at 5'10" / 30" inseam

      > (the headroom is more of a problem). There is currently a

      > nearly-finished (needs paint and dash) 235 with a 200hp Angle-valved

      > IO-360 installed - it would be a rocket! It also has the possibility

      > of being very inexpensive relative to other options, and you have the

      > choice of finishing the avionics the way you want.

      >

      > The second was the 320/360, again designed around the engine sizes.

      > That is the one you have stated you are interested in.

      >

      > The third is the Legacy, of which there are several variants based on

      > fixed / retractable gear and engine choice. Too expensive...

      >

      > All of the Lancairs have relatively high wing-loadings, meaning that

      > they are theoretically somewhat LESS susceptible to chop. One night

      > flying over Morristown IFR I hit some fairly severe chop, banging my

      > head a few times against the canopy of my 235 - but the autopilot had

      > no trouble keeping the airplane level. The controller apologized for

      > having not warned me about some level 3-4 turbulence he was indicating

      > on the scope. Any small plane will make some people sick, but I don't

      > think these are any worse (and maybe a bit better) than a 172.

      >

      > Cheers,

      >

      > Bill

      >

      > --- In lancair@yahoogroups .com, Hartley P <justhartleyp@ ...> wrote:

      > >

      > > I won't be building a plane... I can/will upgrade the instrument

      > panel or make other upgrades, but in short, I consider myself a pilot

      > and not a builder (for now). Besides, my day job in the Navy doesn't

      > leave me enough time to take on a project like an aircraft build. I

      > am out of the country too much.

      > >

      > > In a perfect world, I would love to own a Yak-50 for my fun

      > airplane, but they are none for sale at this time... the Yak would be

      > my BFM machine for stress release. I hope is that the next duty

      > station has another Yak-50 near my airport...if not, then it is

      > Lancair for me!

      > >

      > > My other flight mission is a cross country machine. I enjoy flying

      > to visit friends, eat a $150.00 hamburger, and to travel to strange

      > cities for the fun of it. I like the fuel economy of a Lancair, and

      > after seeing the posts about kts. per buck... the 360 seems like the

      > machine I am leaning towards. Speed is important, I currently have a

      > C-182, but fuel prices to high to merit keeping the SUV airplane. I

      > rarely use the back seats, so the 360 fits my mission (until I get

      > married and have kids).

      > >

      > > Without looking back at the list archives. The 320 has a slightly

      > smaller cockpit and goes 15 kts slower? I am used to big cockpits, so

      > I am concerned that a 320 would be a little small for me. Does anyone

      > have issues with their passengers getting ill in the small cockpit

      > during the hot weather months in turbulence?

      > >

      > > -Hartley

      > >

      > >

      > > ----- Original Message ----

      > > From: Glenn Long <glenn.long@ ...>

      > > To: lancair@yahoogroups .com

      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 10:59:49 AM

      > > Subject: Re: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

      > >

      > > too funny,

      > > if $$ is too tight for the full blown kit, there are a number of 320's

      > > turning up in the 40-50k range. If I had known better, that would

      > have been

      > > my first airplane purchase.

      > >

      > > On Dec 12, 2007 10:01 AM, alfred_newman69 <no_reply@yahoogrou p

      > s.com> wrote:

      > >

      > > > Glen,

      > > >

      > > > C'mon, stop teasing the poor man! :-) He said he is in the service -

      > > > and they don't get paid enough to afford the $100,000 premium for

      > > > owning a Legacy! 360 <= $100k (usually); Legacy >= $200k (usually).

      > > > Non-turbo difference ~ 30 KTAS.

      > > >

      > > > Hartly, evaluate your mission and budget. That will dictate your

      > > > solution. Lancair = no soft field operations, minimal BFM/DACT.

      > > > Parachute would be darned near impossible anyway.

      > > >

      > > > Cheers,

      > > >

      > > > Bill

      > > >

      > > >

      > > > --- In lancair@yahoogroups .com <lancair%40yahoogro ups.com>,

      > "Glenn Long" <

      > > > glenn.long@ ..> wrote:

      > > > >

      > > > > Hartley,

      > > > > As far as performance is concerned, yes - this seems to be a

      closely

      > > > held

      > > > > secret. Way back the CAFE foundation ran a story on performance

      > of the

      > > > > factory's first Legacy - 199L which you can read at

      > > > > http://www.cafefoun dation.org/ v2/research_ aprs.php I have

      > flown this

      > > > plane

      > > > > and while it has many, many hours on it, it's still a powerful

      > > > example of

      > > > > the class. It is not fancy, but she really moves. Downhill you can

      > > > easily

      > > > > run 240 knots back to the barn.

      > > > >

      > > > > The thing that sold me is the ride. I simply went to Oshkosh and

      > took as

      > > > > many demo flights as possible. I also visited the Glasair factory

      > > > and flew

      > > > > their Glasair II. When you fly the Lancair, there is nothing

      left to

      > > > compare

      > > > > it with - I simply wrote the check.

      > > > >

      > > > > That said, I will keep picking at progress through the winter.

      > If you're

      > > > > working in Maine you'll need a heated workspace if you ever expect

      > > > to get

      > > > > anything done. During the winter I just work on the non-epoxy

      > > > related items.

      > > > >

      > > > > I am located near Wings Field KLOM, so if you like, do stop down

      > in the

      > > > > Spring. I may have my engine on by then.

      > > > >

      > > > > Glenn

      > > > >

      > > > > On Dec 12, 2007 7:47 AM, Hartley P <justhartleyp@ ...> wrote:

      > > > >

      > > > > > I hope to get down to CT and check that plane out before the end

      > > > of the

      > > > > > year.

      > > > > >

      > > > > > Getting down to PHL before Mar/April won't happen due to work

      > > > commitments.

      > > > > > Once the thaw starts up here in Maine, I will scoot down and

      check

      > > > out how

      > > > > > far you got this winter on your Legacy. I have never seen a

      Legacy

      > > > up close

      > > > > > so I look forward to checking yours out.

      > > > > >

      > > > > > I searched the net looking for more comparison performance

      > data on the

      > > > > > difference Lancairs, and other than what I have seen on this

      chat

      > > > list over

      > > > > > the past few months, there doesn't seem to be much out there.

      > > > Anyone know of

      > > > > > a good link of where this information might be researched?

      > > > > >

      > > > > > Glenn, what made you choose the Legacy?

      > > > > >

      > > > > > -Hartley

      > > > > >

      > > > > > ----- Original Message ----

      > > > > > From: Glenn Long <glenn.long@ ... <glenn.long% 40gmail.com> >

      > > > > > To: lancair@yahoogroups .com <lancair%40yahoogro ups.com><

      > lancair%40yahoog roups.com>

      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 9:26:33 AM

      > > > > > Subject: Re: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

      > > > > >

      > > > > > Hartley,

      > > > > > I'm building a 2007 Legacy FG which has more than enough

      room for

      > > > 5'11"

      > > > > > through 6'4" people. The cabin is a comfortable 42" inside

      and the

      > > > pedals

      > > > > > are adjusted to taste (within limits). I don't know where you're

      > > > based,

      > > > > > but

      > > > > > I am in the PHL area if you want to sit and get a feel for size,

      > > > > > visibility

      > > > > > etc. I do not have this bird in the air yet, but I expect to be

      > > > running by

      > > > > > summer. The thing you'll notice immediately is that the

      visibility

      > > > over

      > > > > > the

      > > > > > nose is limited while you are sitting back like "easy

      rider". You

      > > > have to

      > > > > > watch out for those 152's crossing below you on the climb.

      Dip the

      > > > nose

      > > > > > down

      > > > > > once in a while for good measure.

      > > > > > My bird has fixed gear which is a bit slower, but easy on

      > > > insurance $$$

      > > > > > and

      > > > > > very easy to build. Each leg has three parts - that's it.

      > > > > > If you start flying in Maine, beware - they are charging some

      > > > hefty user

      > > > > > fees. You know, doing their part to attract tourism to a place

      > > > that can't

      > > > > > keep it.

      > > > > >

      > > > > > fyi - there is a 360 for sale in CT. I don't have the

      number, but

      > > > every

      > > > > > month or so he posts it on eBay.

      > > > > >

      > > > > > Enjoy

      > > > > >

      > > > > > On Dec 11, 2007 6:10 AM, Hartley P <justhartleyp@ yahoo.com>

      > wrote:

      > > > > >

      > > > > > > Anyone live in Maine or the Northeast? Sounds like I need

      to go

      > > > for a

      > > > > > > ride and make sure I fit into the cockpit. Everyone can't seem

      > > > to talk

      > > > > > > enough good things about these planes. I can trade for some

      > > > C-182 time

      > > > > > if I

      > > > > > > find a willing owner.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > I currently have a hangar, but when I move in a year (I am a

      > Navy

      > > > > > > pilot)... what are the effects of parking outside for a few

      > > > months while

      > > > > > I

      > > > > > > find a new hangar?

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > How much stuff can I take with me when I fly? Only a

      roller bag?

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > -Hartley

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----

      > > > > > > From: C Adams <coryadams@yahoo. com <coryadams%40yahoo. com>>

      > > > > > > To: lancair@yahoogroups .com <lancair%40yahoogro ups.com>

      > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 7:59:57 AM

      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Hartley,

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > The 320 / 360 series run 4 cylinder engines and are very

      > > > efficient (~20

      > > > > > > MPG statute)

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > The expected performance is about 180 knots at 10 GPH

      > depending on

      > > > > > > altitude and engine performance. My 360 is a solid 185

      knots at

      > > > 10 GPH.

      > > > > > When

      > > > > > > descending at 500 FPM I will usually keep the power on and

      pass

      > > > over the

      > > > > > > Brooke VOR at 220 knots coming into the DC area. I just like

      > hearing

      > > > > > Potomac

      > > > > > > Approach tell me to slow to 200 knots.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Glass airplanes are fun to work on as well. If you have to

      > do minor

      > > > > > > repairs and such, carbin fiber, glass and epoxy are not to

      tough

      > > > to work

      > > > > > > with. Just use a good air filter when sanding, painting, etc.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > You will wonder why you didn't buy one sooner.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Good luck,

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Cory

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----

      > > > > > > From: Hartley P <justhartleyp@ yahoo.com>

      > > > > > > To: lancair@yahoogroups .com

      > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:04:06 PM

      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Bill,

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > What kind of performance have you been getting with the

      > > > airplanes you

      > > > > > have

      > > > > > > owned?

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > I have a C-182, but I want something with more speed and

      > > > economy. I saw

      > > > > > > the posts last month that showed that a 300HP kit plane

      does not

      > > > go that

      > > > > > > much fast for the fuel cost and they don't have much more room

      > > > in the

      > > > > > cabin.

      > > > > > > So now which Lancair series has the most room, economy, and

      > ease to

      > > > > > > maintain?

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Wondering what the approx. performance stats were for guys

      > planes? I

      > > > > > want

      > > > > > > to buy finished plane sometime this next year, but want to

      make

      > > > sure I

      > > > > > get a

      > > > > > > plane that matches my mission. I shouldn't have problems

      with a

      > > > plane

      > > > > > that

      > > > > > > is challenging to fly (Navy jet training), rather I am

      > looking for a

      > > > > > safe,

      > > > > > > fast, and efficient plane that a 5'11' man and his travel

      > > > partner can

      > > > > > fit in

      > > > > > > for the 3 hour X/C flight.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > I feel comfortable working with engines and avionics, but am

      > > > totally new

      > > > > > > to glass airplanes.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > -Hartley

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > From: alfred_newman69 <no_reply@yahoogrou p s.com>

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > To: lancair@yahoogroups .com

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 3:11:48 PM

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Subject: [Lancair] Re: LANCAIR MRK 11 TAIL

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Caveat: I am not a builder, just a flyer...

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > I have owned a 235 and now own a small tail 320. The 235 was

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > definitely less stable than the 320, but I have enjoyed

      > flying them

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > both. However, consider your level of skill and currency

      > with these

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > planes. I have taken several people with 500+ hours flying

      time

      > > > up in

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > the two airplanes, and several said they would never be

      > comfortable

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > flying them. For myself, I think the 320 is reasonably

      stable in

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > flight given the performance.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > The large tail, as I understand it, has benefits beyond just

      > greater

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > stability in rough weather. You also change out the cowl and

      > engine

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > mount, placing the engine further forward. The net result

      > (again,

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > hearsay) is that your CG envelope is expanded slightly -

      > check with

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > the Lancair specs to confirm this. In exchange for greater

      > stability

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > you give up 5-10 knots in speed and a teensy bit in climb

      (more

      > > > weight).

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > For me, it is all about the speed per dollar. But then, I

      > have the

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > benefit of several million dollars worth of government

      financed

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > training in pointy jets, so a little more work on final

      doesn't

      > > > bother

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > me.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > As in all things experimental, it comes down to budget,

      > time, and

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > personal preference.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Bill

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > --- In lancair@yahoogroups .com, "hrocklen" <hrocklen@ .>

      wrote:

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > I am in the process of finishing a small tail Lancair

      360, and

      > > > have

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > been considering modifying it to a Mark II tail. Is there

      > > > anyone out

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > there who has flown both the small and large tail versions

      > of this

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > aircraft? If so, what are your impressions of the flight

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > characteristics for both, and how difficult a conversion

      > is this?

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________

      _________ _

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > <!--

      > > > > > >

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      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > <!--

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{

      > > > > > > font-family: Arial;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{

      > > > > > > margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height:

      > > > 122%;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{

      > > > > > > margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}

      > > > > > > -->

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > <!--

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica,

      > clean,

      > > > > > > sans-serif;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,

      helvetica,

      > > > clean,

      > > > > > > sans-serif;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-text{

      > > > > > > font-family: Georgia;

      > > > > > > }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-text p{

      > > > > > > margin:0 0 1em 0;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-tpmsgs{

      > > > > > > font-family: Arial;

      > > > > > > clear:both;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vitnav{

      > > > > > > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size:

      > 77%;margin: 0;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vitnav a{

      > > > > > > padding:0 1px;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-actbar{

      > > > > > > clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color:

      #666;text-

      > > > > > > align:right; }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-actbar .left{

      > > > > > > float:left;white- space:nowrap; }

      > > > > > > .bld{font-weight: bold;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-grft{

      > > > > > > font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-ft{

      > > > > > > font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid

      #666;

      > > > > > > padding:5px 0;

      > > > > > > }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{

      > > > > > > padding-bottom: 10px;}

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital{

      > > > > > > background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px

      0 8px

      > > > 8px;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital #vithd{

      > > > > > > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold;

      > color:#333;

      > > > > > > text-transform: uppercase; }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital ul{

      > > > > > > padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital ul li{

      > > > > > > list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;

      > > > > > > }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{

      > > > > > > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text-

      > > > > > > align:right; padding-right: .5em;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{

      > > > > > > font-weight: bold;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital a{

      > > > > > > text-decoration: none;}

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{

      > > > > > > text-decoration: underline; }

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{

      > > > > > > color:#999;font- size:77%; }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{

      > > > > > > padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom:

      > 20px;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{

      > > > > > > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{

      > > > > > > list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{

      > > > > > > text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{

      > > > > > > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{

      > > > > > > padding:8px 0;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{

      > > > > > > font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a;

      font-size:

      > > > > > 100%;line-

      > > > > > > height:122% ;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{

      > > > > > > text-decoration: none;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{

      > > > > > > text-decoration: underline; }

      > > > > > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{

      > > > > > > margin:0;}

      > > > > > > o{font-size: 0;}

      > > > > > > .MsoNormal{

      > > > > > > margin:0 0 0 0;}

      > > > > > > #ygrp-text tt{

      > > > > > > font-size:120% ;}

      > > > > > > blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}

      > > > > > > .replbq{margin: 4;}

      > > > > > > -->

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________

      _________ _

      > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

      > > > > > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________

      _________ _

      > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

      > > > > > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > > >

      > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

      > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

      > > > > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

      > > > > >

      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > >

      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

      > > Be a better friend, newshound, and

      > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

      > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ

      > >

      > >

      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

      > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

      >

      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      <!--

      #ygrp-mkp{
      border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}
      #ygrp-mkp hr{
      border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
      #ygrp-mkp #hd{
      color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
      #ygrp-mkp #ads{
      margin-bottom:10px;}
      #ygrp-mkp .ad{
      padding:0 0;}
      #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
      color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
      -->

      <!--

      #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
      font-family:Arial;}
      #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
      margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
      #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
      margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
      -->

      <!--

      #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
      #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
      #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
      #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
      #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
      #ygrp-text{
      font-family:Georgia;
      }
      #ygrp-text p{
      margin:0 0 1em 0;}
      #ygrp-tpmsgs{
      font-family:Arial;
      clear:both;}
      #ygrp-vitnav{
      padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
      #ygrp-vitnav a{
      padding:0 1px;}
      #ygrp-actbar{
      clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
      #ygrp-actbar .left{
      float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
      .bld{font-weight:bold;}
      #ygrp-grft{
      font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
      #ygrp-ft{
      font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
      padding:5px 0;
      }
      #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
      padding-bottom:10px;}

      #ygrp-vital{
      background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
      #ygrp-vital #vithd{
      font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
      #ygrp-vital ul{
      padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
      #ygrp-vital ul li{
      list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
      }
      #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
      font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
      #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
      font-weight:bold;}
      #ygrp-vital a{
      text-decoration:none;}

      #ygrp-vital a:hover{
      text-decoration:underline;}

      #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
      color:#999;font-size:77%;}
      #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
      padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
      #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
      padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
      #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
      list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
      #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
      text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
      #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
      background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
      #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
      padding:8px 0;}
      #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
      font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
      #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
      text-decoration:none;}
      #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
      text-decoration:underline;}
      #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
      margin:0;}
      o{font-size:0;}
      .MsoNormal{
      margin:0 0 0 0;}
      #ygrp-text tt{
      font-size:120%;}
      blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
      .replbq{margin:4;}
      -->

      __________________________________________________________
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      http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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