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Re: inwisti

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  • pa2rick
    In Message #97, Jerome / Erestel queries a passage in Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar (X:216) that states: With such changes of mind- mood or
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 11, 2002
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      In Message #97, Jerome / "Erestel" queries a passage in "Of the Laws and
      Customs among the Eldar" (X:216) that states: "With such changes of 'mind-
      mood' or _inwisti_ their _lámatyáver_ might also change." Jerome says of
      the word _inwisti_:

      > I can see two hypothesis :
      > 1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
      > 2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'
      >
      > _inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, and I don't see any element in
      > this word which is related to mind or mood as far as I know. So I
      > would tend to 2) But it is not evident to me.

      The evidence supports hypothesis 1), actually. Here is what Carl F.
      Hostetter and I wrote regarding _inwisti_ in "_Morgoth's Ring_: A
      Linguistic Review -- Part I" (VT34:19-20):

      "_inwisti_ -- 'mind-mood', in _Laws and Customs_ a term describing one's
      tastes and interests, which might change over the course of time (216).
      The first element appears as a separate word _inno_ 'mind' [> _indo_] in
      this same passage. In an earlier draft the form is _inwaldi_, with 'mind'
      given as _ín_, _indo_ (229-30 n.16). The origin of the elements _-wisti_,
      _-waldi_ 'mood' in these forms is unclear, unless we are to assume some
      connection with _vista_ 'air as substance' (LR:399 s.v. WIS-) and _vald-_
      'blessedness, happiness' (< VALA; LT1:272). See also _indo_ 'mind'."

      By the way, I don't find the etymological connections for _-wisti_,
      _-waldi_ that Carl and I tentatively proposed in this entry to be
      particularly compelling, though at the moment I'm at a loss to think of
      any better alternatives. Perhaps someone else has some suggestions?

      -- Patrick Wynne
    • Erestel
      [Complete text of original message snipped. Please don t quote unnecessarily. Carl] Thanks for the cross-reference to VT/34. Very interesting ... And this
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 12, 2002
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        [Complete text of original message snipped. Please don't quote unnecessarily.
        Carl]

        Thanks for the cross-reference to VT/34. Very interesting ...
        And this interpretation leads me to a similar one which would involve
        hypothesis 2) as well :
        _in-_ <-> mind-mood
        _-wisti_ <-> changes (connected with WIS- > _vista_ air ?)

        Indeed we may expect that Tolkien gives a gloss like 'mind-mood' to
        explain that we are speeking not exactly of what is usually
        understood by 'mind' in english, but of something between 'mind'
        and 'mood' ... By the way the Etymologies gives _indo_ == heart,
        *mood* [HOME V/361].

        2) has my preference (órenya quetë nin ... ;)) but I am not entirely
        sure.

        Jerome
      • Arden R. Smith
        It seems to me that the most likely etymology for _inwisti_ would derive _wisti_ from some latter-day counterpart of the QL root GWIDI- (PE12:103), whence
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 12, 2002
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          It seems to me that the most likely etymology for _inwisti_ would
          derive _wisti_ from some latter-day counterpart of the QL root GWIDI-
          (PE12:103), whence Qenya _'wiste_ 'weft', as well as _'Wirilóme_
          'Gloomweaver', a name of the Great Spider. If this is the case, then
          the literal meaning of _inwisti_ might be something like
          *'mind-weaving(s)' or *'the fabric of the mind'.

          --
          *********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
          --Elvish proverb
          *********************************************************************
        • Beregond. Anders Stenström
          ... This argument has some force, yet 1) seems to me the natural way to read the sentence. I therefore suppose the plurality (if such it is) of _inwisti_ is a
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 15, 2002
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            Erestel wrote:

            > "With such changes of 'mind-mood' or inwisti their lámatyáver might
            > also change." [Laws & Customs - Of Naming]
            >
            > I can see two hypothesis :
            > 1) _inwisti_ refers to 'mind-mood'
            > 2) _inwisti_ refers to the *changes* of 'mind-mood'
            >
            > _inwisti_ seems to be in the plural, . . . So I
            > would tend to 2)

            This argument has some force, yet 1) seems to me the natural
            way to read the sentence. I therefore suppose the plurality (if
            such it is) of _inwisti_ is a constructio ad sensum, due to the several
            moods implied by the occurrence of changes.

            As for the etymology of *_inwiste_, my simple guess is
            *_inwe_ + *_iste_, where *_inwe_ would be a relative to _indo_
            'mind', and *_iste_ the formal and semantic equivalent to Gnomish
            _ist_ "feeling, sensation. -- notion" (GL (in PE XI)).

            Meneg suilaid,

            Beregond
          • gentlebeldin
            Surprisingly, there s still another interpretation: Root ING- + abstract suffix _we_ + root IS-, first/foremost knowledge . I m aware I have to supply quite
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 23, 2002
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              Surprisingly, there's still another interpretation:

              Root ING- + abstract suffix _we_ + root IS-, "first/foremost
              knowledge".

              I'm aware I have to supply quite some evidence for my strange
              statement:

              1. _Inwe_ is a variant of the name _Ingwe_, the first high-king of
              the Eldalie (LR, Index "Inwe" and "Ingwe"). There is at least one
              other similar derivation, _Inwir_, the house of Ingwe in Lost Tales.
              2. The root IS- showed up as _ist-_ in all known derivations (Etym,
              entry IS-).

              I see one problem: the glosses "knowledge" and "(mind-)mood" seem to
              be incompatible. But that may be just us: "knowledge" needs not to be
              restricted to rationality in other cultures, or in Tolkien's
              understanding, and the fact that he used the same element _ist_
              for "feeling, sensation" in Gnomish (cf. Beregond's message 105)
              could be a third evidence in favor of my hypothesis.

              Hans
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